Colonization (Oathbringer spoilers)

[Iredomi]

(spoilers for Oathbringer) So... I'm making this post having not read Rhythm of War or Dawnshard, and maybe my concerns will be assuaged by reading those books (don't mind spoilers for any of the books btw).

Was anyone else just like very suddenly on the Singers/Listeners side with the reveal that humans on Roshar are essentially invaders?

And also feel a bit gross about Odium being nominally on the Singers side too... But also understand the desperation, and power of his manipulation. (I think hatred of your oppressors is absolutely legitimate and historically a powerful fuel for justice movements.) 

I just don't see a justifiable outcome to these books at this point except for Singer sovereignty over their land returned (and no, Nightblood just because no one can own land it doesn't mean that no one can have sovereignty over it, I've seen this argument from racists too often for it to sit well with me).

I'm just very very concerned about a white author dealing with this in any way that doesn't fall into gross both-sides-ism especially when one side was colonised and enslaved by the other! Interested to hear other people's thoughts on this.

Just want to note I am speaking from my own perspective as an Indigenous person so topics like colonization really hit close to home.    

[The Bookwyrm he/him]

We do see that the Singers were kind, welcoming those from Ashyn after they accidentally destroyed their own planet. They gave the Ashynites Shinovar, which is why the whole area is a lot more Earth-like. However, we now see that these Ashynite humans eventually went on to take over the entire planet. 

The interesting thing to me is that at one point, Odium was the god of the Ashynites, and Honor and Cultivation were the gods of the Singers. So something happened during that ambiguous time lost to history where the two groups basically switched gods. Perhaps conflicts were arising between the two peoples, and the Singers called on Odium for help, or something along those lines. 

The thing to keep in mind when reading Stormlight is that the real villain is Odium. The Singers, for the most part, are just a people who have constantly been given the short end of the stick. When looking at Singer viewpoints in Words of Radiance and Oathbringer, and especially the scenes where Kaladin temporarily joins a group of Singers, we see that these are good people, with a unique culture, who have suffered and been enslaved for far too long. There are some other scenes in Rhythm of War that kind of help to enforce this.

I don't know how the rest of the conflict is going to go, but I do agree that the Singers should be able to live peacefully and freely on their own world again, ruling over it rightfully, once it is all over. If any humans remain on Roshar, then they should be living peacefully with the Singers, instead of trying to rule over them. I'm sure most of the singers would be overjoyed to be freed from Odium, and I think that if all goes well in this war, that goal just might be able to be achieved. Especially if most of the humans are able to return to their original home of Ashyn, though considering the state it's in, I have absolutely no idea of how you'd make it fully habitable again. (Except maybe a Dawnshard, but those are what destroyed it in the first place.)

[Frustration he/him]

6 hours ago, Iredomi said:

I just don't see a justifiable outcome to these books at this point except for Singer sovereignty over their land returned

So force all humans to move despite the fact that with the possible exception of the Heralds none of the living humans did anything wrong?

Or force them to subject themselves to a different government because the new government is run by the decendents of the people who owned the land seven thousand years ago?

And what about the human settlements in places the Dawnsingers were never able to reach like Urithiru?

And what about Horneaters and Herdazians who have mixed heritage?

And how do you even begin to factor in the Aiamians?

And Honor in many ways ruled over all of the Dawnsingers, and he chose humans, so does that mean that the humans had the authority to move into the rest of Roshar and the Dawnsingers were in rebelllion?

I don't think any answer will solve all of the problems on Roshar.

Now that's not to say that a Singer state cannot or should not exist, for example

RoW

Spoiler

A group of Listeners still exists on the outskirts of the Shattered Plains, and they have basically sole claim to most of the land. With the exception of the warcamps and the Oathgate.

But evicting all humans from Roshar creates more problems than it solves.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Frustration

[Iredomi]

I think I should have just kept reading rather than making this post from in my feelings. I do think sovereignty can look a lost less grim than forcing the humans off roshar but yeah it's going to be complicated. Proceeding with trust that Sanderson has earnt but with some doubts in him nailing it totally. Though a friend reminded me that it's best he writes a lot from the alethi perspective because it provides more space to critique that power structure. 

[alder24]

I did not take any side. I feel bad for Singers, they are good and nice but that's it. They deserve own land or equal treatment for sure.

 

For me what happened thousands years ago doesn't matter - those people and Singers are dead except for 10 heralds and some fused. People and Singers doesn't even know what exactly happened. We don't know this! I want to know first when people from Ashlyn started to fight with Singers and why? When and why they switched gods? What were the gods thinking and planing? What happened on Ashlyn and how much Odium was part of it? There is too many questions and involvement of gods change everything. 

 

And it's not really a fitting comparison to colonisation when it's 10000 years after it and we don't know anything. I would call it mass migration - it forced native people out of thier land but there was no empire ruling over that land for resources from distance. But again, we don't know the whole truth. Without Odium and Fused current conflict turns into huge slave uprising which I would fully support, but with them Singers just change one abusive master to another. 

[Proletariat]

Sovereignty for the Singers wouldn't mean expelling humans from Roshar. It's not like the majority of individual humans or Aimians own the land right now, either, and with the end of slavery aren't the problem any more than individual white workers are the obstacle for land rights for First Nations peoples in the Americas, Australia, NZ nor does any argument around land rights for First Nations people anywhere include banning immigrants. We shouldn't make it over-complicated in a sci-fi where they literally can have unlimited food and supplies to go around for everyone thanks to Soulcasting. 

The issues are a) the rulers of the human coalition who need to organise some kind of repatriation and treaty which includes outlawing all forms of slavery, and b ) the majority faction of the Fused/Odium who are effectively conscripting and enslaving huge sections of the Singers. Odium needs to die or leave in order for anything to change, and the humans need to seriously change their system.

[Frustration he/him]

4 hours ago, Proletariat said:

We shouldn't make it over-complicated in a sci-fi where they literally can have unlimited food and supplies to go around for everyone thanks to Soulcasting. 

I think you vastly overestimate the number of soulcasters, there are hundreds of millions of people on Roshar, all spread out over an entire continent, and only a few soulcasters can even make food. Not to mention the fact that soulcast food is inferior to regular food.

4 hours ago, Proletariat said:

The issues are a) the rulers of the human coalition who need to organise some kind of repatriation and treaty which includes outlawing all forms of slavery, and b ) the majority faction of the Fused/Odium who are effectively conscripting and enslaving huge sections of the Singers. Odium needs to die or leave in order for anything to change, and the humans need to seriously change their system.

Yes, but the question is how?

[Proletariat]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I think you vastly overestimate the number of soulcasters, there are hundreds of millions of people on Roshar, all spread out over an entire continent, and only a few soulcasters can even make food. Not to mention the fact that soulcast food is inferior to regular food.

Yes, but the question is how?

Do you know where it says there are hundreds of millions of people on Roshar? Humans haven't been on Roshar for all that long given the planet itself is only 12-13,000 years old, and it took over two million years for the human population on earth to get to a billion people.

IMO either way the fact that just the Alethi soulcasters are able to service the entire army on their own suggests that they could provide enough surplus to accommodate for any shortfalls in the agricultural system and ensure there is plenty for everyone to eat without competition over land and resources.

As far as how to kill Odium, overthrow the Fused, and overhaul the nations behind Dalinar IDK how to get into that without spoiling next book for OP.

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

Do you know where it says there are hundreds of millions of people on Roshar? Humans haven't been on Roshar for all that long given the planet itself is only 12-13,000 years old, and it took over two million years for the human population on earth to get to a billion people.

Because it's the second most populated planet in the Cosmere with a chance at being the most, and is far ahead of planets with multi million populations

Spoiler

wackyHair

What's the population of the shardworld's we've seen so far (even in very general terms, like one's much bigger than the others or something)?

Brandon Sanderson

Scadrial is certainly the least populated of the major shard worlds. Then Nalthis, I'd guess, followed by Roshar, and finally Sel--which likely has the largest population. I would have to look closely to see which is bigger between those last two.

Phantine

Does a population of about 100 million during The Final Empire (with 1-2 million in Luthadel), and around 15 million during Alloy of Law (with about 5 million in Elendel) seem right?

Brandon Sanderson

Have to RAFO this for now, for reasons I can't explain without giving spoilers.

Phantine

How about as far as Elend/Wax knows, at the beginning of their respective series?

Brandon Sanderson

Then those numbers, if they're off, are at least close.

faragorn

Interesting that Sel has such a large population, given that the actual numbers of soldiers shown seem to be quite small.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that Opelon has an inflated opinion of its own size in relation to the rest of the world.

Footnote: The RAFO about the Scadrian population may be due to the existence of the Southerners, which had not been revealed as of this time.
/r/books AMA 2015 (June 8, 2015)

 

5 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

IMO either way the fact that just the Alethi soulcasters are able to service the entire army on their own suggests that they could provide enough surplus to accommodate for any shortfalls in the agricultural system and ensure there is plenty for everyone to eat without competition over land and resources.

The army is only about a few hundred thousand, and most of the food is mostly brough in or farmed rather than soulcasted. And Alethkar has more soulcasters than most other nations.

8 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

As far as how to kill Odium, overthrow the Fused, and overhaul the nations behind Dalinar IDK how to get into that without spoiling next book for OP.

Fair enough.

[Rg2045]

I held off on commenting on this subject because I don’t want to be as confrontational as I can be at times. Especially when the subject is clearly close to you personally. 
my only retorts would be

does the descendants have to pay for what their ancestors did? 
shouldn’t they be looking for how to co-exist with one another instead of harboring anger for actions over a millennia ago? 

also about population, If I remember correctly earth own population has had a big boom over the last 2,000 years

[StanLemon]

@Iredomi if it helps assuage your concerns, there are hints in RoW that the Singers aren't exactly innocent in the whole ordeal either. It's also implied Odium is ultimately responsible for human expansionism

[LordFlea]

On 27/04/2022 at 11:23 AM, Iredomi said:

(spoilers for Oathbringer) So... I'm making this post having not read Rhythm of War or Dawnshard, and maybe my concerns will be assuaged by reading those books (don't mind spoilers for any of the books btw).

Was anyone else just like very suddenly on the Singers/Listeners side with the reveal that humans on Roshar are essentially invaders?

And also feel a bit gross about Odium being nominally on the Singers side too... But also understand the desperation, and power of his manipulation. (I think hatred of your oppressors is absolutely legitimate and historically a powerful fuel for justice movements.) 

I just don't see a justifiable outcome to these books at this point except for Singer sovereignty over their land returned (and no, Nightblood just because no one can own land it doesn't mean that no one can have sovereignty over it, I've seen this argument from racists too often for it to sit well with me).

I'm just very very concerned about a white author dealing with this in any way that doesn't fall into gross both-sides-ism especially when one side was colonised and enslaved by the other! Interested to hear other people's thoughts on this.

Just want to note I am speaking from my own perspective as an Indigenous person so topics like colonization really hit close to home.    

Do the humans of today bear the sins of their forbears?

Much in the same way do the radiants of today bear no guilt for the abandonment of their predecessors oaths?

I wonder how these crimes will be acknowledged and Honoured by the Coalition if they are at all

[Duxredux he/him]

I'm not sure how Brandon will address this, but I trust he'll try to capture the different viewpoints well enough and if not, that the experts he gets to check his work and the beta readers will tell him if he's about to do something extremely offensive. He's mindful about this kind of thing.

@Iredomi you're right, there is a huge history of terrible things like slavery, displacement, and cruelty related to colonialism in the world. Even if the events happened centuries ago, the effects can still be felt by the descendants today, even if it's just the socio-economic state that generations of their family have lived in. I know that I grew up with an advantage just because my father worked hard to get out of the trailer park he grew up in and got me a good education, compared to someone who was not handed the money, skills, and legacy of success that I was given. There are generations of groups, ethnic, geographic, and possibly even religious, that for one reason or another handed down wealth or poverty, education or no education, job skills for high wage work or low wage work, stable families or broken families, kindness or abuse, and a lifetime of modeling financial/social/etc. success or defeat. There's more than just those options, but that's life, and it's not fair.

I don't know what the solutions are. Making the wealthy pay the difference to the poor has complications. Banishment has complications. That's a topic for whole books to explore, not a post on a discussion board to gain real depth. If anyone is interested I can try to find some online articles on the topic. Whatever the solution(s) is for the Singers, Listeners, and Humans it probably won't look fair from one viewpoint or another, but it might work out to the point that they stop slaughtering each other over it. Maybe.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Duxredux

[KaladinWorldsinger]

On 4/29/2022 at 11:17 AM, LordFlea said:

Do the humans of today bear the sins of their forbears?

No need to bear the sins, but the descendants need to take responsibility for the actions of their forbearers and atleast correct them in the present and also never repeat said actions

[Dellexe he/him]

9 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

No need to bear the sins, but the descendants need to take responsibility for the actions of their forbearers and atleast correct them in the present and also never repeat said actions

If they *need* to take responsibility, and it's not of their own volition, that's being forced to bear the sins of the forebears unjustly. If the need is forced on them, that's just creating new injustices. 

[Frustration he/him]

9 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

No need to bear the sins, but the descendants need to take responsibility for the actions of their forbearers and atleast correct them in the present and also never repeat said actions

Why take responsibility for something you didn't do?

[Wandering Shade]

On 4/30/2022 at 3:04 PM, Frustration said:

Why take responsibility for something you didn't do?

Because you're benefiting from it. Humans are now the dominant race on Roshar because their ancestors turned the Singers into mindless slaves. That is an awful crime and it hasn't really been repaid. But, the humans we see actually did do some of it. They kept the slavery going.

Navani, Dalinar, Shallan, even Kaladin to a lesser extent, all used parshmen as their slaves.

Now, these humans are not literally responsible for the Singers becoming parshmen, but they still need to do something about it. As we see with Rlain, people still treat Singers as sub-human, even after they have regained their Identity.

Do you think that I shouldn't take some responsibility for the systematic oppression of black people in America just because I've never owned a slave? No. All of the responsibility, also no, but if I want to be a moral and upstanding person, I need to address that and not just sweep it under the rug with the excuse of "Well I never participated in slavery so why should I care?"

Sorry, this is something I have powerful opinions on.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Wandering Shade

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, Wandering Shade said:

Because you're benefiting from it.

Not really, slavery hinders economic and technological development so no one really benefits from slavery.

1 hour ago, Wandering Shade said:

Humans are now the dominant race on Roshar because their ancestors turned the Singers into mindless slaves.

Half-right, humans also reproduce much faster than Singers do.

1 hour ago, Wandering Shade said:

That is an awful crime and it hasn't really been repaid.

Can it be repaid? And by whom?

1 hour ago, Wandering Shade said:

But, the humans we see actually did do some of it. They kept the slavery going.

As established in WoR none of the main cast had the power to end Parshmen enslavement.

1 hour ago, Wandering Shade said:

Navani, Dalinar, Shallan, even Kaladin to a lesser extent, all used parshmen as their slaves.

Navani and Dalinar you could argue, but Kaladin and Shallan were both too poor to afford Parshmen.

1 hour ago, Wandering Shade said:

Now, these humans are not literally responsible for the Singers becoming parshmen, but they still need to do something about it.

Like what?

1 hour ago, Wandering Shade said:

As we see with Rlain, people still treat Singers as sub-human, even after they have regained their Identity.

Nothing they can do about that, how someone is treated is the personal choice of the people they interact with.

1 hour ago, Wandering Shade said:

Do you think that I shouldn't take some responsibility for the systematic oppression of black people in America just because I've never owned a slave? No. All of the responsibility, also no, but if I want to be a moral and upstanding person, I need to address that and not just sweep it under the rug with the excuse of "Well I never participated in slavery so why should I care?"

Let's not go there.

1 hour ago, Wandering Shade said:

Sorry, this is something I have powerful opinions on.

You're fine.

[Dellexe he/him]

52 minutes ago, Wandering Shade said:

Because you're benefiting from it. Humans are now the dominant race on Roshar because their ancestors turned the Singers into mindless slaves. That is an awful crime and it hasn't really been repaid. But, the humans we see actually did do some of it. They kept the slavery going.

Navani, Dalinar, Shallan, even Kaladin to a lesser extent, all used parshmen as their slaves.

Now, these humans are not literally responsible for the Singers becoming parshmen, but they still need to do something about it. As we see with Rlain, people still treat Singers as sub-human, even after they have regained their Identity.

Do you think that I shouldn't take some responsibility for the systematic oppression of black people in America just because I've never owned a slave? No. All of the responsibility, also no, but if I want to be a moral and upstanding person, I need to address that and not just sweep it under the rug with the excuse of "Well I never participated in slavery so why should I care?"

Sorry, this is something I have powerful opinions on.

My regarding collective responsibility is that it is such an intangible issue. How do you gauge how much someone has benefited from the prior oppression? Sure you can point the finger at the nobility that owned Parshmen, but even they weren't ultimately responsible. How about random craftsmen, traders, farmers, who have never owned Parshmen, or even had ancestors who owned them? You could make the argument that *somewhere* down the line they had *somehow* benefited from the oppression of Parshmen, but such a benefit is so unquantifiable that any sort of debt they owe is likewise impossible to gauge. Especially with craftsmen and farmers, people who would live at more of a subsistence level, is it right to inflict additional responsibility on them when all they've done is try to survive? 

My perspective regarding your real world example is this; I don't think I've personally benefited from that prior oppression in a readily quantifiable way. All I can do is live as I've always lived, trying to treat people equally and fairly. It's not that I don't care, it's that I don't think you can push that responsibility anywhere without causing more problems. 

[Proletariat]

The point of having to accept some responsibility isn't as some kind of sentence or penance, and so it doesn't matter that people weren't personally guilty as individuals for historical genocide and chattel slavery. That's not a relevant answer to colonisation, and it ends up just passing the buck so it's not anyone's responsibility to act.

The point is that we exist in a society, and so does Roshar, where the status of people is arbitrarily assigned in terms of property for the purposes of profit. It is everyone's collective responsibility to object to this because if you watch something rust like this continue to happen and do nothing you're implicitly supporting its continuation, but it's also in everyone's interest to object to it. There's a reason that the phrase black lives matter is often extended to all lives can't matter until black lives matter, because in a system where it is morally acceptable that you can assess one life as inherent being of less value than another then that allows anyone fundamentally to be deemed of less value. A society that says Black bodies are disposable for money is probably going to be comfortable saying women's labour and bodies are disposable, for example. It's not a nice way to see other people and that will never change unless something is done about it.

If you're a parshmen you get treated as completely disposable [this applies even if you're sentient, since there's a literal extermination and land theft program there in regards to the Listeners], and at varying points in our society slave labour has underwritten specific industries which is implied to have happened on Roshar as well. And let's be clear that even the people who didn't own slaves also seem to have stood by while thing happened like children being stolen right in front of them, or signed up to the army so it's not exactly a hands clean situation anymore than it is here. Meanwhile within the caste system that applies to humans means that dark eyes represent a labour force and fodder for conscription, and so they do have an interest in changing how things are run too.

The caste system and slavery needs to be abolished, the regions democratised with equal suffrage, reparations made to the Parsh, and a system of treaties with the different Parsh peoples starting with landback for the Listener nation, and allows for free movement so families can resettle given how they've been broken up by being sold off. The people who need to be pressured to change that are the people in charge. And hopefully the return of Oaths can be part of their journey on this question.

But like, over-complicating stuff and thinking of reparations as a First Nations person kicking you out of your house while you are personally named responsible for everything about genocide is wrong. That's a meme spread by politicians that this is what reparations looks like. It's worth reading up on the claims and arguments made by First Nations peoples, whether it's Palestinians arguing for a single secular Palestinian state, Indigenous people in Australia arguing for land rights and treaties, or Black people in the US arguing for reparations and it's not something to be wary of. The reason sci fi and fantasy often have these metaphors about colonisation is to encourage us to look into that kind of thing IMO.

[Truthwatcher94]

Comparing the occupation of the people from Ashyn of the inhabitants of Roshar to our real world’s long list of colonization record is, in my opinion, spot on. These histories, if for the lack of specific details, tell us that solving and compromising from both sides will never be easy and black and white solutions will never do good without hurting the other. Aside from influencing the future of one country’s, or in this case one planet’s, culture and identity compared to letting their development run its natural course, the peoples are bound to eventually interact with the other without the prejudices of their ancestors. Although there will always be cases that will be remembered by as “unforgivable”, some, especially those with mixed ancestry, will always look for the middle ground and pursue what’s best for both parties. In the case of Stormlight, since several millenia have already passed by, with each Desolation forcing them to go backwards as a people, everyone before Jasnah’s a tad late but brilliant discovery of their true history has always assumed that the way things were had always been it (with the exception of the few immortal beings present). This is one of the many things I love about this series - the way Brandon navigates through all the social problems mirroring ours seems well-researched and thought out. Until we know what happened during the years where the switching of gods took place, we can really never understand why everything turned out to be what they are now. Knowing Brandon’s books, these revelations will never disappoint. Until then, let’s hope and trust Brandon to give the most realistic, albeit not what we expect, ending to the Rosharans, both the settlers and the natives. 

On 4/27/2022 at 7:23 AM, Iredomi said:

I'm just very very concerned about a white author dealing with this in any way that doesn't fall into gross both-sides-ism especially when one side was colonised and enslaved by the other! Interested to hear other people's thoughts on this.

Just want to note I am speaking from my own perspective as an Indigenous person so topics like colonization really hit close to home.

PS: I’m also from a country with a history of being colonized. One thing I’ve learned throughout the years is that no matter how much you know about your own people’s history, no matter how pissed you are for not witnessing what would have happened when we were left to our own, no matter how up to this day we want to change those, we can’t and we never will. Sometimes it sucks to feel so helpless, I know that very well. Sometimes I daydream of the what ifs and it feels good to give your patriotism a shot once in a while. Therefore, just like the Rosharans of today, we can only do what’s best to move forward and be the best versions of us we can be. 

[Frustration he/him]

6 hours ago, Proletariat said:

The point of having to accept some responsibility isn't as some kind of sentence or penance, and so it doesn't matter that people weren't personally guilty as individuals for historical genocide and chattel slavery. That's not a relevant answer to colonisation, and it ends up just passing the buck so it's not anyone's responsibility to act.

That's basically just saying "Someone has to be responsible so it's going to be you."

6 hours ago, Proletariat said:

since there's a literal extermination and land theft program there in regards to the Listeners],

You mean a war that was started when they murdered Gavilar?

The same war that would have happened if the Herdazians or the Vedens had been the offending party?

6 hours ago, Proletariat said:

And let's be clear that even the people who didn't own slaves also seem to have stood by while thing happened like children being stolen right in front of them, or signed up to the army so it's not exactly a hands clean situation anymore than it is here.

Name one time a child was stolen in front of a character and they said "Oh, cool." And went about their buisness other than Venli who is a listener, watching a human child being taken.

And how does sighning up to the army make you responsible for things you never did?

Edited May 2, 2022 by Frustration

[Proletariat]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

That's basically just saying "Someone has to be responsible so it's going to be you."

You mean a war that was started when they murdered Gavilar?

The same war that would have happened if the Herdazians or the Vedens had been the offending party?

Name one time a child was stolen in front of a character and they said "Oh, cool." And went about their buisness other than Venli who is a listener, watching a human child being taken.

And how does sighning up to the army make you responsible for things you never did?

No, it has to be everyone because if you don't then yes you are complicit. It's like if your next door neighbour were being lynched and you know you could have done something but ignored it, and then tried to say it wasn't your problem so you shouldn't feel bad. We literally have a teachable moment in the book that I don't want to spoil for OP that talks about this.

And who is they? This back and forth is built around how certain sections of a population aren't responsible for the actions of others. Why is the entire Listener nation deserving of extermination [including all future Listeners who may have been born] and their lands raided of goods meanwhile Dalinar who is a literal war criminal is deserving of rehabilitation? Some of this can be attributed to the Thrill, but the Alethi leadership have been nationalists who believe it's one rule for their light eyes and a different rule for everyone else on a pretty deep level. This is a society that technically enforces eugenics on their population via the caste system, which is something we should consider horrific if you consider its implementation in the real world.

The point isn't that there's a scene where Kaladin stood there and started whistling while a child was taken. The point is that it is routine practice for parsh slavery in a society that everyone actively participates in. It's something they all know about, ignore, and don't do anything about. The treatment of the parsh doesn't even register for them at this point of the story.

Finally, if you voluntarily sign up to a war effort (as opposed to forced conscription) to exterminate another race then yes you need to take some responsibility. There's a huge Alethi military whose sole purpose was to kill all the Listeners and take the gemhearts in their land. It's a metaphor for mineral extraction on Indigenous land. There is literally a genocide, and minerals being forcefully extracted. It's a very very blunt metaphor. Do you not think if there was a voluntary sign up for say, a group of white people in a nation to kill all Indigenous people in another country and taking all of their mineral resources that the people who signed up for it would have some responsibility? 

[Dellexe he/him]

2 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

No, it has to be everyone because if you don't then yes you are complicit. It's like if your next door neighbour were being lynched and you know you could have done something but ignored it, and then tried to say it wasn't your problem so you shouldn't feel bad. We literally have a teachable moment in the book that I don't want to spoil for OP that talks about this. 

So if you're not responsible, and any benefit is tenuous, you still have to bear responsibility because you just have to? There isn't a case of personal responsibility here for most of Roshar's human population. Does being part of a culture with problems make one respnsible for all problems committed by that culture? Can we blame all of X culture/nationality for crimes committed by a few? Hell no. 

[Frustration he/him]

6 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

No, it has to be everyone because if you don't then yes you are complicit. It's like if your next door neighbour were being lynched and you know you could have done something but ignored it, and then tried to say it wasn't your problem so you shouldn't feel bad. We literally have a teachable moment in the book that I don't want to spoil for OP that talks about this.

No that's like someone got hurt 2,000 years ago so you need to make up for it despite the fact that it was an unintended side effect of an attack during wartime, that targeted exclusivly combatants. You could not have done something because you were not even thought of yet.

6 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

And who is they? This back and forth is built around how certain sections of a population aren't responsible for the actions of others. Why is the entire Listener nation deserving of extermination [including all future Listeners who may have been born] and their lands raided of goods meanwhile Dalinar who is a literal war criminal is deserving of rehabilitation? Some of this can be attributed to the Thrill, but the Alethi leadership have been nationalists who believe it's one rule for their light eyes and a different rule for everyone else on a pretty deep level. This is a society that technically enforces eugenics on their population via the caste system, which is something we should consider horrific if you consider its implementation in the real world.

The Parshendi killed Gavilar, so the Alethi declaired war on them. I'm not sure what the structure of Alethkar has to do with this.

6 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

The point isn't that there's a scene where Kaladin stood there and started whistling while a child was taken. The point is that it is routine practice for parsh slavery in a society that everyone actively participates in. It's something they all know about, ignore, and don't do anything about. The treatment of the parsh doesn't even register for them at this point of the story.

No one even knows that Parshmen are sentient until book 3(with the exception of a select few individuals none of which had the power to do anything about it." Heck Parshmen will starve to death if not told to eat.

7 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

Finally, if you voluntarily sign up to a war effort (as opposed to forced conscription) to exterminate another race then yes you need to take some responsibility.

The only army who's stated purpose is to wipe a race from existance is the Singers.

8 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

There's a huge Alethi military whose sole purpose was to kill all the Listeners and take the gemhearts in their land.

No, it was to exact vengence for their murdered king. It is litterally called "The War of Vengence" and was started with the "Vengence Pact."

9 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

It's a metaphor for mineral extraction on Indigenous land.

Then it's a pretty bad metaphor.

10 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

There is literally a genocide, and minerals being forcefully extracted.

It's a war, not a genocide and animals are being hunted, not minerals being extracted.

11 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

It's a very very blunt metaphor.

Sure, just ignore the fact that the Listeners started it, and that the same thing would have happened to any other nation, the fact that the Alethi were engaging in peacful negotiation and trade, and so on.

16 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

Do you not think if there was a voluntary sign up for say, a group of white people in a nation

Did you not notice that everyone on Roshar(Except the Shin) would look closer to Asian than white?

Spoiler

reddidaccount1

In Sanderson's most recent lecture (50:25 in) to his BYU Writing Class, he mentions that Alethkar natives resemble Asians. This came as a bit of a surprise to me, especially since I always imagined the Shin as the "Asians" of that world.

Brandon Sanderson

It's a little more complicated than I might have made it seem. Alethkar natives other than the Shin have the epicanthic fold, but the Alethi wouldn't look strictly Asian to you--they'd look like a race that you can't define, as we don't have them on earth. I use half-Asian/half-arab or half-asian/half-Polynesian models as my guide some of the time, but Alethi are going to have a tanner skin than some of those.

Some Horneaters might look Caucasian to you--but then, most will not. They'll seem like something alien, and not all of them have light skin; they tend to walk a spectrum between pale and coppery. Reshi and Herdazians will look closest to something like an indigenous Bolivian.

Shin would look the closest to Caucasian to you, but again, they're not an Earth ethnicity. So you might not be able to place them either.

A lot of the fanart has done a good job with this, and if you search through it, it might help you get an idea.

General Reddit 2016 (July 13, 2016)

18 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

kill all Indigenous people in another country

Engage in war until the other side surrenders, like all wars.

19 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

taking all of their mineral resources

Resources that the Listeners themselves belive belongs to whoever kills the Chasmfiend?

20 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

that the people who signed up for it would have some responsibility? 

Considering none of your previous points are accurate: no.