Colonization (Oathbringer spoilers)

[Proletariat]

1 hour ago, Dellexe said:

So if you're not responsible, and any benefit is tenuous, you still have to bear responsibility because you just have to? There isn't a case of personal responsibility here for most of Roshar's human population. Does being part of a culture with problems make one respnsible for all problems committed by that culture? Can we blame all of X culture/nationality for crimes committed by a few? Hell no. 

This isn't about punishment or even debt. This is a question about responsibility to do something about it. And you have that responsibility in real world, and so do the Alethi on Roshar.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

No that's like someone got hurt 2,000 years ago so you need to make up for it despite the fact that it was an unintended side effect of an attack during wartime, that targeted exclusivly combatants. You could not have done something because you were not even thought of yet.

The Parshendi killed Gavilar, so the Alethi declaired war on them. I'm not sure what the structure of Alethkar has to do with this.

No one even knows that Parshmen are sentient until book 3(with the exception of a select few individuals none of which had the power to do anything about it." Heck Parshmen will starve to death if not told to eat.

The only army who's stated purpose is to wipe a race from existance is the Singers.

No, it was to exact vengence for their murdered king. It is litterally called "The War of Vengence" and was started with the "Vengence Pact."

Then it's a pretty bad metaphor.

It's a war, not a genocide and animals are being hunted, not minerals being extracted.

Sure, just ignore the fact that the Listeners started it, and that the same thing would have happened to any other nation, the fact that the Alethi were engaging in peacful negotiation and trade, and so on.

Did you not notice that everyone on Roshar(Except the Shin) would look closer to Asian than white?

  Reveal hidden contents

reddidaccount1

In Sanderson's most recent lecture (50:25 in) to his BYU Writing Class, he mentions that Alethkar natives resemble Asians. This came as a bit of a surprise to me, especially since I always imagined the Shin as the "Asians" of that world.

Brandon Sanderson

It's a little more complicated than I might have made it seem. Alethkar natives other than the Shin have the epicanthic fold, but the Alethi wouldn't look strictly Asian to you--they'd look like a race that you can't define, as we don't have them on earth. I use half-Asian/half-arab or half-asian/half-Polynesian models as my guide some of the time, but Alethi are going to have a tanner skin than some of those.

Some Horneaters might look Caucasian to you--but then, most will not. They'll seem like something alien, and not all of them have light skin; they tend to walk a spectrum between pale and coppery. Reshi and Herdazians will look closest to something like an indigenous Bolivian.

Shin would look the closest to Caucasian to you, but again, they're not an Earth ethnicity. So you might not be able to place them either.

A lot of the fanart has done a good job with this, and if you search through it, it might help you get an idea.

General Reddit 2016 (July 13, 2016)

Engage in war until the other side surrenders, like all wars.

Resources that the Listeners themselves belive belongs to whoever kills the Chasmfiend?

Considering none of your previous points are accurate: no.

I don't know how to break up the code, so I'll just respond with some bullet points:

• Colonisation is not a one off event. It is ongoing. The slavery of the parshmen continued every day. The invasion of the Listeners is continuing. It is ongoing in the real world too. You can always do something about it, and you need to take responsibility for your decision not to do something about it. If you do not do something, then that is a decision you have made to walk away.
• What is the Alethi's stated goal with this vengeance except for extermination given they are literally just killing people? Why do you think the individual Listeners dying to Alethi vengeance should be expected to take responsibility in a way that Alethi should not for chattel slavery? And do you think it is separate from the context that the Alethi are constantly in military engagement? Moreover would it be right for every country in the world with grievances against them to invade Alethkar and kill off its people because Dalinar has committed war crimes all over the place? Saying the Listeners started it doesn't address anything that's happening.
• There are minerals (gemhearts) being taken from a resource (chasmfiends) only available on Indigenous (Listener) land, and the Listeners are reliant on this resource for their way of life (agriculture). Colonisation in the real world is about forcing things in other nations into commodities, whether it's natural resources (coal, oil, wood, minerals), or labour (chattel slavery, indentured labour). The majority of their race has been taken into chattel slavery, and the remainder are being invaded and having their natural resources taken. I do not know how much more clearly to state what is going on, and what the metaphor is saying.
• The fact that people are not white in Roshar isn't the point either. The point of bringing up an example of white people invading another place is talking about colonisation to help you understand using real world references, and colonisation was mainly implemented by white countries in the real world. It really does not matter that the Alethi are implied to not be white on Roshar in the text, because the Alethi have taken on the same role that imperial powers descended from the British Empire have in the real world.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Proletariat

[Dellexe he/him]

4 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

This isn't about punishment or even debt. This is a question about responsibility to do something about it. And you have that responsibility in real world, and so do the Alethi on Roshar.

I am doing something about it, I try to treat people equally and fairly, and encourage others to do the same. Is that not enough for you? I daresay a vast majority of the Alethi were never active participants in Singer slavery, much less responsible for it. I find your perspective to be a very ethnocentric one. 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Proletariat said:

I don't know how to break up the code, so I'll just respond with some bullet points:

You can click inside the quote box and then delete everything but what you want to respond to.

1 minute ago, Proletariat said:

The slavery of the parshmen continued every day.

And they would have died without it.

2 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

The invasion of the Listeners is continuing.

It's hard to say it's continueing when Alethkar won and annexed the Shattered Plains.

3 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

You can always do something about it, and you need to take responsibility for your decision not to do something about it. If you do not do something, then that is a decision you have made to walk away.

As we see in WoR none of the main cast had the ability to do anything about it. Shallan and Jasnah tried to release the parshmen, but they couldn't do anything.

4 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

What is the Alethi's stated goal with this vengeance except for extermination given they are literally just killing people?

You mean they are killing the soldiers that fight them. That's what war is.

5 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

Why do you think the individual Listeners dying to Alethi vengeance should be expected to take responsibility in a way that Alethi should not for chattel slavery?

I'm not saying they are, what I am saying is that the War of Vengence is no different from any other war. There is no racial motivation behind it, it is not a genocide, it is simple war, just as the Veden civil war was, or the Alethi wars of Unification. Or any of the countless other conflicts on Roshar.

7 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

Moreover would it be right for every country in the world with grievances against them to invade Alethkar and kill off its people because Dalinar has committed war crimes all over the place?

Against them sure, go right ahead.

8 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

Saying the Listeners started it doesn't address anything that's happening.

It changes quite a deal. The Alethi are not the agressors, in the War of Vengence they are innocent, and the Listeners are guilty, not the other way around.

10 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

only available on Indigenous (Listener) land

Not true, Herdaz has some, Reshi isles have some, you could probably find some off the coast of Iri too. And that's just the greatshells. Whitespines, chulls and axehounds all produce gemhearts.

11 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

and the Listeners are reliant on this resource for their way of life (agriculture).

They have non-gemheart dependent agriculture, it just cannot be maintained on Narak.

12 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

Colonisation in the real world is about forcing things in other nations into commodities, whether it's natural resources (coal, oil, wood, minerals), or labour (chattel slavery, indentured labour).

And yet the Alethi's orgininal intent was to peacfully trade and to be allowed to hunt Chasmfiends. No force, no coersion, just trade.

14 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

The majority of their race has been taken into chattel slavery, and the remainder are being invaded and having their natural resources taken. I do not know how much more clearly to state what is going on, and what the metaphor is saying.

You mean that the majority of the singers activly participated in a war against humanity with the expressed purpose of wiping them out and the humans as a counterattack accidentally messed up the singers souls. And then the group that wasn't trying to kill all of the humans got to keep their minds, and then later killed a human king who had shown them nothing but kindness and the kingdom got mad about it and wants recompension.

Yeah, very clear metaphor. Who exactly are the bad guys here?

18 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

The fact that people are not white in Roshar isn't the point either. The point of bringing up an example of white people invading another place is talking about colonisation to help you understand using real world references, and colonisation was mainly implemented by white countries in the real world. It really does not matter that the Alethi are implied to not be white on Roshar in the text, because the Alethi have taken on the same role that imperial powers descended from the British Empire have in the real world.

I find the comparison lacking.

[NameIess]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

And yet the Alethi's orgininal intent was to peacfully trade and to be allowed to hunt Chasmfiends. No force, no coersion, just trade.

And of course the return of an ancient group of genocidal gods that would enslave the Listener people and start up a genocidal war against the humans.

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

You mean that the majority of the singers activly participated in a war against humanity with the expressed purpose of wiping them out and the humans as a counterattack accidentally messed up the singers souls. And then the group that wasn't trying to kill all of the humans got to keep their minds, and then later killed a human king who had shown them nothing but kindness and the kingdom got mad about it and wants recompension.

Again, Gavilar was attempting to return the Fused. He didn't actually want trade. He wanted to return the Voidbringers and start up the desolations again, something that the modern-day Listeners would literally rather die than allow to happen.

Now, are the Alethi a metaphor for colonization? Eh, maybe? Though their original intent, vengeance, was a perfectly rational justification for a war, they got distracted by the wealth of the gemhearts and turned a war of vengeance into a war for profit. And some Alethi, namely Sadeas, seemed to want to genocide all the Parshmen. So on that front, kinda. Additionally, they, along with most other people in the world, mistreated the Parshmen. Yes, the Parshmen needed to be cared for in order to be kept alive, and I guess making them work is sort of morally okay, but they could also, y'know, talk. Like, that's a thing that people knew they could do. And stuff like what happened to Sah, his wife being sold as breeding stock, still happened to them. So on that front, also kinda. If you want to see it, it's there.

Personally, I find more similarities between the Final desolation and modern-day problems. It's asking the same questions: What do you do when, although you personally have done nothing wrong, your ancestors participated in mistreating a group of people in a way that has benefitted you and hurt them?

[Dellexe he/him]

6 hours ago, Nameless said:

And of course the return of an ancient group of genocidal gods that would enslave the Listener people and start up a genocidal war against the humans.

Again, Gavilar was attempting to return the Fused. He didn't actually want trade. He wanted to return the Voidbringers and start up the desolations again, something that the modern-day Listeners would literally rather die than allow to happen.

99% of the Alethi didn't know Gavilar's goals. From their point of view, they treated the Parshendi with the utmost respect and were stabbed in the back for no reason. The goal of the Pact was to force them to surrender, it only morphed into genocide because of their refusal to surrender or negotiate. 

[NameIess]

13 minutes ago, Dellexe said:

99% of the Alethi didn't know Gavilar's goals. From their point of view, they treated the Parshendi with the utmost respect and were stabbed in the back for no reason. The goal of the Pact was to force them to surrender, it only morphed into genocide because of their refusal to surrender or negotiate. 

The Alethi didn't do all that good of a job at convincing the Parshendi to surrender, what with Sadeas' wanton slaughtering of their surrendered troops.

[Dellexe he/him]

22 minutes ago, Nameless said:

The Alethi didn't do all that good of a job at convincing the Parshendi to surrender, what with Sadeas' wanton slaughtering of their surrendered troops.

And we can blame Sadeas for that. Other Alethi tried to negotiate, and were turned away until Eshonai, who then gave them the middle finger after getting Stormformed. 

[NameIess]

Just now, Dellexe said:

And we can blame Sadeas for that. Other Alethi tried to negotiate, and were turned away until Eshonai, who then gave them the middle finger after getting Stormformed. 

Sadeas may have been the worst of the Highprinces, but many of the others shared his view of the Parshendi as savages. Their war may have originally been about finding justice for Gavilar's death, but it was very much about profiting from the gemhearts while incidentally getting some battle to fuel their Thrill addictions by the time tWoK starts.

[Dellexe he/him]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Sadeas may have been the worst of the Highprinces, but many of the others shared his view of the Parshendi as savages. Their war may have originally been about finding justice for Gavilar's death, but it was very much about profiting from the gemhearts while incidentally getting some battle to fuel their Thrill addictions by the time tWoK starts.

Well when your one deal with them gets betrayed for (seemingly) no reason in such a spectucular manner and they refuse to negotiate the Alethi viewpoint is understandable. The Parshendi have no goodwill with the Alethi. 

And regarding the gemhearts, what's your point? 

[NameIess]

Just now, Dellexe said:

Well when your one deal with them gets betrayed for (seemingly) no reason in such a spectucular manner and they refuse to negotiate the Alethi viewpoint is understandable. The Parshendi have no goodwill with the Alethi. 

And regarding the gemhearts, what's your point? 

The argument made was that the Alethi were justified in their war because their king was killed. I'm saying that the war turned from a war for vengeance into a war for exploitation of the natural resources of the Parshendi, along with genocide. So it became unjust.

[cometaryorbit]

I don't think the parallel is very close. The lighteye/darkeye caste system is a pretty direct corrspondence to historical RL things, but not the humans/parshmen or Alethi/Parshendi situation.

Pre Everstorm the Parshmen didnt appear... well, maybe sapient is the wrong word since they could talk and understand language, but they didn't seem to have wills of their own. They were basically zombies - though not biologically dead. I think it's really notable that they apparently never tried to run away or revolt or anything; indeed when the Everstorm comes the concept of them being dangerous is *totally alien* to Rosharan humans. That is *not* the attitude of RL oppressors, they are generally quite concerned about revolts and keeping control. So their will-less-ness seems to be real, and I don't think Rosharan humans can be blamed for not realizing Parsh were people- that wasn't observable at the time.

As for the war with the Parshendi, this is largely a result of no one knowing what Gavilar was doing to return the Desolations and thus seeing his assassination as an unprovoked attack. That doesn't really correspond to any RL colonial situation.

Edited May 3, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[Dellexe he/him]

3 hours ago, Nameless said:

The argument made was that the Alethi were justified in their war because their king was killed. I'm saying that the war turned from a war for vengeance into a war for exploitation of the natural resources of the Parshendi, along with genocide. So it became unjust.

Sure, they lost focus. It also doesn't really make a difference, does it? They're at war, exploiting the resources of their enemies, unrepentant backstabbers. Would it be better if they exterminated the Parshendi quickly before turning to the gemhearts? 

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Dellexe said:

Sure, they lost focus. It also doesn't really make a difference, does it? They're at war, exploiting the resources of their enemies, unrepentant backstabbers. Would it be better if they exterminated the Parshendi quickly before turning to the gemhearts? 

It would have been better if they'd kept fighting a war instead of turning it into a game. It would have been better if they'd treated the Parshendi the same as they would have treated a human country that killed their king; war, followed by occupation of the country and the execution of that country's leaders. Not attempted genocide accompanied by tons of war crimes.

[therunner he/him]

6 hours ago, Nameless said:

It would have been better if they'd kept fighting a war instead of turning it into a game. It would have been better if they'd treated the Parshendi the same as they would have treated a human country that killed their king; war, followed by occupation of the country and the execution of that country's leaders. Not attempted genocide accompanied by tons of war crimes.

Considering what we see in Dalinar's flashbacks, what Sadeas and others are doing is how they would treat human country. War crimes seem relatively 'normal' to Alethi, which is partially cultural and partially driven by Thrill (what came first is a good question).

And I don't really see evidence for them attempting genocide? The stated goal was to punish the responsible (find center of Parshendi, and go after leaders), topology of Shattered plains led to it turning into a Siege. This did not work, since gemhearts could be used to farm, which prolongs the siege. Then the reasonable thing is to deny enemy this resource, which starts the greatshell hunts, and as we know this then morphed into a more economically minded conflict. In fact by the time of TWoK direct conflict mainly happens in skirmishes around gemhearts. Nowhere do I see evidence for them attempting genocide, but of course maybe I am forgetting some key detail.

So yeah, they did want to quickly go in, go after leaders and go home, but topology of Shattered plains and existence of greatshells meant that it is not that simple.

[cometaryorbit]

20 hours ago, therunner said:

Considering what we see in Dalinar's flashbacks, what Sadeas and others are doing is how they would treat human country. War crimes seem relatively 'normal' to Alethi, which is partially cultural and partially driven by Thrill (what came first is a good question).

It might be purely human,  pre-Thrill. The Alethi have been known for being warlike since the Silver Kingdoms era, and the kind of bloody tactics Dalinar uses were pretty normal historically in societies like this.

Roshar has no concept of human rights, except maybe among a few Orders like the Edgedancers, so "war crimes" is probably not a concept they have. Dalinar's guilt strikes me as more personal - I don't think his burning a rebelling city  violated any Rosharan- or Alethi-recognized laws of war,, as bad as it was *morally*.