Spoilers for prologue 5 Let's try and guess the most important words a man can say.

[Shuffel]

On 4/4/2022 at 8:40 PM, Syrail said:

“Give it to me now. I need it” is fairly close to what Dalinar ended up saying when the Stormfather initially refused to accept his words, though.. 

-WoR, ch 89 
 

This has to be it! It has to be!

[bmcclure7]

14 hours ago, Lord Spirit said:

Also, the stormfather lied to Gavilar multiple times. He might just have said that the words were in the way of kings to keep Gavilar busy. Or maybe the words don’t exist. 

They exist. There would have been no point even talking to Gavilar if they didn’t. I don’t know if this is the storm father or storm faker. But whatever his intentions his desire for Gavilar to become a Harald seems to be genuine. The proof can be seen by his actions. He only abandon him once he realizes what a terrible Harold he would be.

[Lord Spirit he/him]

5 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

They exist. There would have been no point even talking to Gavilar if they didn’t. I don’t know if this is the storm father or storm faker. But whatever his intentions his desire for Gavilar to become a Harald seems to be genuine. The proof can be seen by his actions. He only abandon him once he realizes what a terrible Harold he would be.

Maybe, but I don’t see why he needed a new herald. Unless he sent Visions to other people at around the same time, I don’t see why he would suddenly need one new herald. The existing arrangement had been working for millennia. There wasn’t any one herald that was doing anything that they obviously needed to be replaced. Gavilar thinks he’ll take Talns, but I doubt it. Taln never broke, and Gavilar admitted that he would break instantly. I feel like he might have been trying to get Gavilar to restore the radiants, like with Dalinar, but Gavilar mistook that to mean becoming a herald. 

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, Lord Spirit said:

Maybe, but I don’t see why he needed a new herald. Unless he sent Visions to other people at around the same time, I don’t see why he would suddenly need one new herald. The existing arrangement had been working for millennia. There wasn’t any one herald that was doing anything that they obviously needed to be replaced. Gavilar thinks he’ll take Talns, but I doubt it. Taln never broke, and Gavilar admitted that he would break instantly. I feel like he might have been trying to get Gavilar to restore the radiants, like with Dalinar, but Gavilar mistook that to mean becoming a herald. 

Not possible. He tries to say the words variant and the storm Father (storm faker?) only laughs. Not the kind of response you’d expect if he was trying to get him to found a knights radiant. And if that was his goal, why you lied to him at all wanna be out front and tell him that he wants him to refound knights radiant? 

well, and what do you mean they don’t need a new Harold. Even in the best case scenario. Taln won’t last forever. They will need a replacement eventually. The obvious and clear solution that this is to raise a new Harold to take the place of the old ones. 
 

 

 

[Keats.The.Listener He, Him]

I may be completely off base here, and this might be disproven by a WOB, but it seems to me like Gavilar had not bonded with the Stormfather.  I think her was thinking he was going to become a Herald but he had never said the simplest of Oaths. 

I still believe the most important words one can say is "live before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." 

Gavilar seemed so full of himself he never learned how to say those words - i.e., he never embodied the intent of those words.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

23 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

They exist. There would have been no point even talking to Gavilar if they didn’t. I don’t know if this is the storm father or storm faker. But whatever his intentions his desire for Gavilar to become a Harald seems to be genuine. The proof can be seen by his actions. He only abandon him once he realizes what a terrible Harold he would be.

He isn't trying to make Gavilar a Herald, though. That's something Gavilar made up and convinced himself of despite being told point blank "that's not what's going on here".

5 hours ago, Keats.The.Listener said:

I still believe the most important words one can say is "live before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." 

Gavilar seemed so full of himself he never learned how to say those words - i.e., he never embodied the intent of those words.

Agreed. As the Stormfather tells him, "It’s not about what you are saying." It's about what he means.

[RedBlue]

7 hours ago, Keats.The.Listener said:

I still believe the most important words one can say is "live before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." 

I agree.

The Stormfather is trying to coach Gavilar to form a bond, and for that, he needs to speak the First Ideal.

The Stormfather does a very poor job of communicating what’s going on to Gavilar, and it doesn’t help that Gavilar is such a poor listener. That’s why there’s all this confusion about replacing a Herald (which was never on the table for the Stormfather), and why Gavilar is so obsessed with memorising and quoting The Way of Kings rather than engaging with the text properly.

[Master Silver]

In terms of the words, both Dalinar and Navani are initially told no, and they have to really want the bond and not take no for an answer.

Also, I just realized that if a Herald died that night and the Oath pact was broken, would Odium have been able to get to Gavilar before he went into the beyond? Odium would have incentive to be in the area, hunting Tanavast's cognitive shadow. So maybe he put Gavilar's soul in his back pocket... if that is possible. The body would be well preserved because it was soul cast. 

 

 

[BinarySecond]

29 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

In terms of the words, both Dalinar and Navani are initially told no, and they have to really want the bond and not take no for an answer.

Also, I just realized that if a Herald died that night and the Oath pact was broken, would Odium have been able to get to Gavilar before he went into the beyond? Odium would have incentive to be in the area, hunting Tanavast's cognitive shadow. So maybe he put Gavilar's soul in his back pocket... if that is possible. The body would be well preserved because it was soul cast. 

 

 

Almost like

Spoiler

Kalad's Phantoms?

 

[bmcclure7]

14 hours ago, Keats.The.Listener said:

I may be completely off base here, and this might be disproven by a WOB, but it seems to me like Gavilar had not bonded with the Stormfather.  I think her was thinking he was going to become a Herald but he had never said the simplest of Oaths. 

I still believe the most important words one can say is "live before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." 

Gavilar seemed so full of himself he never learned how to say those words - i.e., he never embodied the intent of those words.

Possible but unlikely. We’re not sure what the storm father or faker was trying to turn gavilar into, but whatever it was, he obviously wanted to succeed. Other times when radiant have tried to say the right words, but not really meant them there Spren has informed them as such. But that’s not what the suppose storm father does here. Assuming he did want him to become a knight radiant why I just tell him that he had to actually mean the words. 
 

Second Problem is the fact why lie at all? I mean if you wanted to make him a knight’s radiant why not just tell him that’s what he wanted. That’s what every other spren dose after all.
 

@LewsTherinTelescope

 

Edited July 31, 2024 by bmcclure7

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Other times when radiant have tried to say the right words, but not really meant them there Spren has informed them as such. But that’s not what the suppose storm father does here. Assuming he did want him to become a knight radiant why I just tell him that he had to actually mean the words. 

He hits him with the "these words are not accepted", warns him repeatedly to stop trying to guess, and says "It's not about what you're saying" when he gets frustrated (and that's all just this one night!). He doesn't directly explain it, but he keeps firmly trying to push him back on the right track to find the answer himself, Gavilar is just too cocky to listen.

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Second Problem is the fact why lie at all? I mean if you wanted to make him a knight’s radiant why not just tell him that’s what he wanted. That’s what every other spren dose after all.

He isn't lying, the visions really are about finding a champion. But Stormfather is clearly still trying to understand Gavilar and hasn't decided whether to stick with him or not, as seen by the ending, so telling him "oh yeah I want to give you god powers" is a bit premature.

And it's not like he told Dalinar that he was searching for a Radiant either, but Dalinar took the book's lessons to heart and progressed to a point where he knew the Words innately. Gavilar could have done this himself but was too focused on power to work it out, which is why the Stormfather then says next time he'll do it differently.

Edited July 31, 2024 by LewsTherinTelescope

[+robardin he/him]

Is it just me, or was the newly released prologue very different in key details from the one I'd heard/read before?

Anyway, especially after recently re-reading Mistborn: The Lost Metal, I'm more sure than ever that the "champion" sought after by the "Stormfather" was actually Autonomy Stormfaking an insertion into the Honorvisions from the Real Stormfather, and that the "champion" sought in Gavilar was some way to make an avatar of Autonomy.

That would explain a quite number of things:

• Why the "Stormfather" (henceforth Stormfaker) said he'd not trust Gavilar's family "again", when in fact the Real Stormfather (RSF) started showing Honorvisions to Dalinar as we see in TWoK, about five years later.
• How the Stormfaker could lie, when spren cannot. And about some very basic things, too, like claiming that the Heralds were dead and on Braize.
• How something like demanding power could be "so close" to the Words to find, instead of the Immortal Words.
• How the Stormfaker could say something like "if I try again..." while leaving Gavilar, when the RSF cannot help but show Honorvisions to a nascent Bondsmith!
  • "THE ALMIGHTY DEMANDED IT OF ME. I COULD NO MORE DISOBEY THAN I COULD REFUSE TO BLOW THE WINDS."
• Who the "they" were in "they mustn't see, they mustn't know" upon the Stormfaker sensing "the death of a Herald" (and thus, the likely imminence of a Desolation and the Everstorm). "They" are the other Shards, especially the two still on Roshar, Cultivation and Odium.
• Why the Stormfaker forms a shimmering, indistinct body and even a head that turns to face Gavilar, where the RSF never does in SA1-4.
• Why Gavilar hasn't spoken the First Ideal to bond the Stormfather: it's not the Stormfather, and those are not the Words the Stormfaker are after.
  • Not only are the Immortal Words likely contained in Nohadon's TWoK, if Gavilar had received Real Honorvisions, they would have been told to him directly by Honor in one of them, as was Dalinar later, with the explicit directive: "speak again the ancient oaths, and restore to men the Shards they once bore"!
  • In fact, it could be that a vision of Aharietiam that we see him dwelling on, with the nine abandoned Honorblades, that we see him obsessing over in the SA5 prologue, is the only one that Gavilar ever saw!

And yet, since the Stormfaker DID want Gavilar to find specific Words, and said they were in The Way of Kings, that must actually be true. (Why would even the Stormfaker lie about where he might find the Words he wanted him to say?)

So a more accurate question might be: what Words might one say to swear to Autonomy, that another avatar of Autonomy from TLM would have said, and that Gavilar was close to saying, and also maybe in what we've seen/read already from the in-world TWoK?

Best candidates to me, if it is something we've read of it by SA5, would be some statement embodying:

• It becomes the responsibility of every man, upon realizing he lacks the truth, to seek it out.
• The substance of our existence is not in the achievement, but in the method.
• A man's emotions are what define him, and control is the hallmark of true strength.

 

Edited August 2, 2024 by robardin

[alder24]

20 minutes ago, robardin said:

• Why the "Stormfather" (henceforth Stormfaker) said he'd not trust Gavilar's family "again", when in fact the Real Stormfather (RSF) started showing Honorvisions to Dalinar as we see in TWoK, about five years later.

Dalinar and Gavilar weren't the only ones who saw those visions. There were others. The Stormfather recognized the potential Dalinar had and most likely after many failures, he returned to Dalinar this time trying a very different approach - without exposing himself which made Gavilar lazy.

Spoiler

coltonx9

How many people, about, were sent visions by the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormfather? It was less than ten. Fewer than ten.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

28 minutes ago, robardin said:

• How the Stormfaker could lie, when spren cannot. And about some very basic things, too, like claiming that the Heralds were dead and on Braize.

Spren can lie. Pattern lied to Shallan multiple times. Sekeir, an Honorspren, lied and falsely imprisoned Kalak during Adolin's "fair" trial. The Stormfather potentially lied telling Dalinar in OB ch 38 that Taln broke too, and in WoR telling Kaladin he killed Syl, while Syl was being kept away from Kaladin by the Stormfather and Syl wasn't fully dead yet. Spren can lie very well.  

31 minutes ago, robardin said:

• How something like demanding power could be "so close" to the Words to find, instead of the Immortal Words.

Because it's not the words that matter, it's the intent. This was the only time Gavilar truly meant his words. The intent was there - but that was the wrong intent.

Quote

"Tell me what I’m saying wrong!”
It’s not about what you are saying.

 

34 minutes ago, robardin said:

• Who the "they" were in "they mustn't see, they mustn't know" upon the Stormfaker sensing "the death of a Herald" (and thus, the likely imminence of a Desolation and the Everstorm). "They" are the other Shards, especially the two still on Roshar, Cultivation and Odium.

Or his beloved children - spren. They are those who would suffer the most - being forced to bond humans and risk their lifes by doing so. 

How would Autonomy, of all people, be able to sense a Herald dying?? This makes even less sense than Ishar.

37 minutes ago, robardin said:

• Why the Stormfaker forms a shimmering, indistinct body and even a head that turns to face Gavilar, where the RSF never does in SA1-4.

Literally the very first chapter of OB:

Quote

He searched the sky and discovered a ripple in the air, like heat rising from distant stone. A shimmer the size of a building.
“Stormfather,” he said. 

OB ch 34:

Quote

Dalinar backed up, letting Fen rejoin the people and experience the end of the vision. As he folded his arms to watch, he noted a shimmering in the air beside him.
“We’ll want to send her more of these,” Dalinar said to the Stormfather.

OB ch 38:

Quote

Dalinar turned to the side, to where he glimpsed the air shimmering. The Stormfather.

RoW ch 107:

Quote

The Stormfather appeared beside him, moving in the air alongside Dalinar —a rare occurrence. The Stormfather never had features. Merely a vague impression of a figure the same size as Dalinar, yet extending into infinity

Never you said?

46 minutes ago, robardin said:

• Why Gavilar hasn't spoken the First Ideal to bond the Stormfather: it's not the Stormfather, and those are not the Words the Stormfaker are after

Because he's guessing the words at random, there is no meaning, nor understanding behind them - no intent. He wasn't ready to say the words and he didn't know them. Once you have the right intent you will just know the correct words and nobody has to tell you them before. WoK ch 67:

Quote

THE WORDS, a voice said, urgent, as if directly into his mind. In that moment, Kaladin was amazed to realize that he knew them, though they’d never been told to him.

 

53 minutes ago, robardin said:

Not only are the Immortal Words likely contained in Nohadon's TWoK, if Gavilar had received Real Honorvisions, they would have been told to him directly by Honor in one of them, as was Dalinar later, with the explicit directive: "speak again the ancient oaths, and restore to men the Shards they once bore"!

The visions were the same, Gavilar recognized Jezrien's Honorblade and Brandon confirmed this ages ago in a WoB. This WoB has some interesting implications.

Quote

Gavilar blinked, focusing on the man once more as his Blade formed. Storms… that was Jezrien’s Honorblade, wasn’t it? What was happening?

 

Spoiler

Questioner

The visions Dalinar gets in WoK always struck me as odd - you don't just look at the past, you are able to act within this experience. Now we know that Gavilar was also on the way to being a Bondsmith - was he acting in a different way? Were the visions only basically the same but different in the end depending on the personal reactions? Is this something like a test?

Brandon Sanderson

He did see the same visions. They were the same thing. But... I will say that his reaction to them were very different from Dalinar's reactions to them. Anyway it was difficult for the Stormfather without a bond to determine/to tell the difference between very easily. When Spren are bonded, they gain a lot more ability to understand the world around then, so you'll find out soon more stuff about this in the third book.

Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)

And again, speaking isn't enough, you have to have the right intent. OB ch 46:

Quote

“Stop,” he said, taking the emerald and holding it before her again. “Stop right there. You want to be a Windrunner?”
“More than anything,” she whispered.
“Why?”
“Because I want to soar.”
“Not good enough. Kaladin, he wasn’t thinking about being left out, or how great it would be to fly. He was thinking about saving the rest of us. Saving me. Why do you want to be in the Windrunners?”
“Because I want to help! I want to do something other than stand around, waiting for the enemy to come to us!”
“Well, you have a chance, Lyn. A chance nobody has had for ages, a chance in millions. Either you seize it, and in so doing decide you’re worthy, or you leave and give up.” He pressed the gemstone back down into her hand. “But if you leave, you don’t get to complain. As long as you keep trying, there’s a chance. When you give up? That’s when the dream dies.”
She met his eyes, closed her fist around the gemstone, and breathed in with a sharp, distinct breath.
Then started glowing.

Both Dalinar and Gavilar read the Way of Kings. But unlike Gavilar, who just memorized this book because he just wanted to gain power by guessing, Dalinar was inspired by it and LIVED by it. Dalinar understood the Way of Kings, Gavilar didn't. Even more, the Honor himself said in visions to “Read the book. Unite them.” (WoK ch 52).

1 hour ago, robardin said:

• • In fact, it could be that a vision of Aharietiam that we see him dwelling on, with the nine abandoned Honorblades, that we see him obsessing over in the SA5 prologue, is the only one that Gavilar ever saw!

Dalinar saw it as well, multiple times, one time in OB ch 38.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

10 hours ago, robardin said:

• Not only are the Immortal Words likely contained in Nohadon's TWoK, if Gavilar had received Real Honorvisions, they would have been told to him directly by Honor in one of them, as was Dalinar later, with the explicit directive: "speak again the ancient oaths, and restore to men the Shards they once bore"!
• In fact, it could be that a vision of Aharietiam that we see him dwelling on, with the nine abandoned Honorblades, that we see him obsessing over in the SA5 prologue, is the only one that Gavilar ever saw!

Gavilar has seen the vision where Honor announces his death and commands the recipient to unite the world. WoR I-14:

Spoiler

It had worked. Just as the Diagram instructed, Taravangian was king of Jah Keved. He had taken the first major step toward unifying the world, as Gavilar had insisted would need to happen if they were to survive.

That was, at least, what the visions had proclaimed. Visions Gavilar had confided in him six years ago, the night of the Alethi king's death. Gavilar had seen visions of the Almighty, who was also now dead, and of a coming storm.

Unite them.

"I am doing my best, Gavilar," Taravangian whispered. "I am sorry that I need to kill your brother."

Most likely he did try those words and they got rejected because he didn't mean them—"It’s not about what you are saying."—so he went down a rabbit hole trying to guess other things. (There seems to be a bit of a continuity error since he doesn't actually tell Taravangian some of these things in the prologue.)

[Guest Ψιτιsτηε Βεsτ]

On 4/1/2022 at 8:40 AM, bmcclure7 said:

becomes the responsibility of every man, upon realizing he lacks the truth, to seek it out.

Wind and truth?

[teknopathetic he/him]

On 7/26/2024 at 5:39 PM, RefusesToElaborate said:

Hahaaaaaaa....

WoR: Chapter 89

  Hide contents

'Life before death!' Dalinar shouted, 'Strength before weakness! Journey before destination!'

I AM THE SLIVER OF THE ALMIGHTY HIMSELF! The voice said, sounding angry. I AM THE STORMFATHER. I WILL NOT LET MYSELF BE BOUND IN SUCH A WAY AS TO KILL ME!

'I need you,' Dalinar said. 'despite what you did.'

 

Maybe something like "I need to share the burden" or something like that? 

Edited August 9, 2024 by teknopathetic

[Subvisual Haze]

"I will do the needful"

[+robardin he/him]

21 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

"I will do the needful"

Ah yes, in the Desi translation, LOL. Along with "Do the necessary".

At first I wondered why my Indian/Pakistani colleagues seemed concerned about me possibly needing to use the restroom

[Ashbringer he/him]

Wasing of doing the needing of doing?

[Master Silver]

On 7/30/2024 at 7:40 AM, Lord Spirit said:

Maybe, but I don’t see why he needed a new herald. Unless he sent Visions to other people at around the same time, I don’t see why he would suddenly need one new herald. The existing arrangement had been working for millennia. There wasn’t any one herald that was doing anything that they obviously needed to be replaced. Gavilar thinks he’ll take Talns, but I doubt it. Taln never broke, and Gavilar admitted that he would break instantly. I feel like he might have been trying to get Gavilar to restore the radiants, like with Dalinar, but Gavilar mistook that to mean becoming a herald. 

So, since the recreance, we know that one herald at least has gone over to Odium.  Nale is fighting on the side of the fused. So, he needs to be replaced. But I thought there was also a theory that there was a hidden traitor among the heralds. 

[Mayalaran]

I think it is "Give it to me. Now. THEY need it."

One word off from what Gavilar said "Give it to me. Now. I need it."

This slight difference holds the entire reason why Gavilar never would have succeeded. Intent. You need it to be selfless.

[Ailvara]

On 7/31/2024 at 3:07 PM, Master Silver said:

In terms of the words, both Dalinar and Navani are initially told no, and they have to really want the bond and not take no for an answer.

How fitting, first step to becoming a Bondsmith is to be really relentless about forging a bond.

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Mayalaran said:

I think it is "Give it to me. Now. THEY need it."

One word off from what Gavilar said "Give it to me. Now. I need it."

This slight difference holds the entire reason why Gavilar never would have succeeded. Intent. You need it to be selfless.

Dalinar said "I need you" too. WoR ch 89:

Quote

“I need you,” Dalinar said. “Despite what you did. The bridgeman spoke of oaths given, and of each order of knights being different. The First Ideal is the same. After that, each order is unique, requiring different Words.”

Anyway, it's not the words that were wrong, it's the intent. This was the only time Gavilar truly had intent behind his words and wasn't guessing at random. WaT Prologue:

Quote

You don’t understand, the Stormfather said. Those aren’t the Words, Gavilar.

“Then what are the storming Words!” he said, slamming the cup down on the table—shattering it, splashing wine across the wall. “You want me to save this planet? Then help me! Tell me what I’m saying wrong!”

It’s not about what you are saying.