Kaladin's Next Steps

[Ashspren]

Kaladin has basically been the protagonist of the entire first arc. That said, it’s improbable that he’ll have as much of the spotlight in the second arc as well. I’m going to do my best to explain my theories for all of the viable paths I see moving forward... 

[Open the spoilers to see my ideas and details about how each one of these scenarios could go down. The pros/cons are super general and just my surface-level opinions.]

 

Option 1: Swearing the Fifth Ideal in Book 5

Spoiler

 

In Book 5, Kaladin swears the Fifth Ideal, which is great! Good for him. He's living his Main Character Moment™, his development is probably wrapping up, and his arc ends with a nice bow on top. Like others have expressed, I think it's going to be something along the lines of "I will teach others to protect themselves." However, I could also picture an ideal about protecting himself. For example, "I realize that I am worth protecting," or "I will allow others to protect me." @Ishar had the idea of “I must choose who I have to save,” where he has to choose between two people, like a trolley problem situation. 

In the second arc, we would probably see background-character Kaladin training up some of the younger or less experienced Windrunners, like Lopen and Lyn. As a Windrunner of the Fifth Ideal, he could help other people progress in their own arcs and become more sure of themselves and their abilities. I definitely see Lyn taking on more responsibility and a larger role in the second arc, so Kaladin's transition from a main character to a supporting character could probably be facilitated with some sort of phase-out between the two. He would definitely still be involved in making big decisions for the Radiants, most likely as an advisor or military leader, but he might not have many viewpoint chapters. 

As far as romance goes, I think it's 50-50 for whether or not Kaladin will end up with someone. He could discover that he's personally fulfilled by his work and the friendships/dynamics around him, and that romance just isn't the thing for him. Or, with his development mostly over, he could finally be in a good mental place for a romantic relationship and might be willing to settle down for a while. 

 

Pros: It makes a lot of sense! Kaladin is alive and happy, we have a main character who's made it to the Fifth Ideal, and the future Radiants have an example to follow and a person to advise them.

Cons: It's predictable, for the most part, and lacks some spice.

 

Option 2: Swearing the Fifth Ideal and Dying Right After

Spoiler

 

I’ll be honest––I’m not the biggest fan of this theory, and I don’t see it becoming true. However, I’ve seen a lot of discussion behind it, so I figured I’d include it in this list.

If this is the case, I see Kaladin swearing the 5th in a sort of self-sacrificial manner. Maybe he dies to protect others, continuing on the same themes of the rest of the Windrunner ideals. Maybe he dies without protecting anyone. In my opinion, that would be super interesting, but it would definitely be a tragic end to his arc. As I’ve seen some people discussing, the character arcs in Cosmere books are usually nicely completed. It would be a fun and interesting change to see that change, but it’s unlikely.

Obviously, Kaladin wouldn’t be alive for the second arc, but I can’t picture him doing some cognitive shadow shenanigans a la Kelsier. If he dies, I think he’s going to have to make his peace with that. He’ll need to have faith in the people who are still alive to carry things through to the end. (Or… he could lose hope entirely, but that would still render him inactive in terms of post-mortem experiences.)

 

Pros: It’s fun and quirky and different. Also, we wouldn’t have to worry about his level of involvement being too high or too low in the second arc.

Cons: It just doesn’t seem likely. If swearing the 5th is the indicator that his character arc is over, it kinda seems weird to kill him off immediately after.

 

Option 3: Stuck in the Fourth Ideal

Spoiler

 

What if he just… doesn’t, for a while? What if Kaladin has to make his peace with that?

I actually really like this storyline. It would place Kaladin in a sort of enduring limbo space, which could be interesting. He would have to find fulfillment in other parts of his life, and he might even have to watch as his fellow Windrunners swear the 5th before he can. In the event that this becomes Kaladin’s reality, he would have to remain a viewpoint character until he finds resolution. He would need to grapple with an important question: Is it possible to lead when you’re not the most powerful in the group? When you don’t have the absolute greatest capabilities on the field?

The answer is yes, but Kaladin would need to learn that through experience and interactions with other characters. He’s a leader, and while he’s been the first to swear each Windrunner ideal so far, the two are not dependent on one another. The second arc could show Kaladin making decisions, strategizing, and fighting on the field while not being in the most dramatic or power-filled struggles. What makes a good leader is the ability to lead, to know people, and to delegate certain duties accordingly. Kaladin doesn’t need to swear the 5th to do those things.

And regarding the aforementioned idea of finding fulfillment, this could be a good opportunity for Kaladin to focus on his personal connections. He could find a romantic partner, strengthen his friendships, and spend more time with his family. (That last part is definitely a bit selfish––Hesina is lovely, Kaladin’s relationship with Lirin is so wonderfully real and complicated, and I want to see more of Oroden moving forward!) In my opinion, Kaladin has been defining himself through his powers and through his Windrunner squad which, while full of friends and a great found family dynamic, is still associated with the fight against Odium. Who is Kaladin when he’s not Kaladin Stormblessed, Radiant Supreme, Bridgeman Deluxe Edition? We’d get to find out.

From there, we have 2 sub-options…

 

Sub-Option A: Never Swearing the Fifth Ideal

I think this is unlikely, unless he dies before he can do it. I’ll get into that more in Option 4, but I think his death would have to be in Book 5.

If Kaladin doesn’t die and still doesn’t swear the 5th, he would just have to accept it. I illustrated my ideas for his development outside of the ideals above, so just imagine those becoming his final plot resolution.

 

Sub-Option B: Eventually Swearing the Fifth Ideal

If Kaladin ends up swearing the 5th, then I think it’ll be in Books 9 or 10. In Option 1, I discussed the path I see for Kaladin swearing the 5th in Book 5, which would allow him to be comfortably phased out from the main character role between arcs. If he swears the 5th in Books 6-8, it would just feel rushed, and trying to work him in and out of the spotlight just feels awkward to me.

As for what happens after that, I think we need to know what goes down in the Contest of Champions. What kind of world are the Radiants dealing with post-Book 5? I’ll probably revisit this idea after I finish Book 5 and rethink everything (provided he’s alive and hasn’t sworn the 5th).

 

Pros: Kaladin gets a major wrench thrown in his plans, which would allow us to know him better outside of the fight. There’s also the added bonus of a sort of parallel character development to that which we’ve seen so far. Further, it’s just a nice change of pace from Kaladin’s current progression, and it’s also something we haven’t seen before in the series. Everything is so fast-paced. Kaladin could be the first to face stagnation.

Cons: As much as I love the idea, I’m not sure if it’s entirely likely. From the what we’ve seen in the first 4 books, it looks like Kaladin is progressing pretty steadily toward finishing his character development in the first arc. (There are probably more cons to this, but I’m self-aware enough to admit my own bias.)

 

Option 4: Kaladin Dies Before He Can Swear the Fifth Ideal

Spoiler

 

Do I believe this option is going to happen? Probably not. Do I like it? To be completely honest, yeah. I do.

I absolutely adore Kaladin, so I hate this concept from the heartbreak perspective, but this is just super new and tragic and interesting. The idea of death isn’t exactly permanent in Sanderson books, but I think having this brutal break in a character arc provides some shock value. We’ve been with Kaladin for 4 books. We know him and love him. For him to die––and to do so right before he reaches the satisfying end of his character arc––is something we haven’t seen before in the series.

Like I mentioned previously, I don’t foresee lots of cognitive shadow activity. I think when Kaladin is gone, he’s going to be gone permanently. The people around him will be affected, and there’s going to have to be a new Windrunner leader. Lyn and Lopen, who I brought up in Option 1, are possible candidates, and they would open the doors to the second arc.

I don’t think there’s much more for me to say on this point, so I won’t draw this out.

 

Pros: It’s new, it’s different, and it has shock value. It also makes the transition of protagonists pretty seamless.

Cons: It’s unlikely, given that every character is given a satisfying end to their arc. Also, it’s sad.

 

If you stuck it through to the end, then let me know what you think! If I got any canon information wrong, feel free to correct me––it’s been a while since I’ve reread any of the books, and I wrote this all in a sleep-deprived haze, lol. Definitely looking forward to reading any debate/discussion on this.  

Edited February 4, 2022 by Ashspren

[ftl]

I think option 3 was actually what Kaladin was up to for most of book 3 and 4. He couldn't swear the fourth, and for a large part of that time was thinking "Yeah, never gonna do that, that one is beyond me". So we've had that for a while!

IMO the most likely one is option 1. At the end of the day, it's "predictable" because it's the natural way for his arc to conclude, because it's a good story. At some point, yes, it IS predictable that Brandon is gonna write a satisfying story, and that's not really a bad thing! It's not like we want Sanderson to just randomly throw in things for shock value. Good twists are foreshadowed and make sense in retrospect, they're not just "LOL you thought one thing was gonna happen and I did something else just to keep you guessing!!!"

[Circumlocutions]

Oooo I agree the first is the most predictable and likely.  But I'd also like to see some of those others play out.  

Spoiler

I almost want the ideal to be off screen, with the book ending as Kaladin talking with Syl and telling her he finally knows it as he looks out into the sunset or something beautiful.  The book ends there, without the oath ever being given but we get an idea where he is going to be and that he is going to be ok. In some ways it's kind of cliche but in others it's not.  

 

[Kandrafish]

Option 1 is probably what is going to happen, but it is not going to happen in the way we expect it to happen. Some twist needs to happen, so that it doesn't happen the way we expect it to and, if this is the end of Kaladin... We need answers about why he is "son of Tanavast" not "son of Honor". We need his destiny to come into play. 

If Kaladin swears his fifth Oath, then something bigger is following. Kaladin is our main character and he needs to enact the law upon the Shin people and help Szeth "cleanse" Shinovar. And he needs to research and discover why Ishar is crazy. (He could channel his inner Nale and Paliah. You can see option 5 below for clarification on why I think this is necessary.)

He needs to ascend or race the storm or become the storm and become more powerful than we could ever imagine.

OR 

Maybe he dies and Option 2 plays out after the storm catches him...  Or he swears the 5th ideal and then Stormlight gets broken so he doesn't die but, we are following Lift and Renarin in the later books because other people's powers broke when Stormlight did.

 

 

Option 5?

Kaladin fulfills his greater destiny... Whatever this means... Kaladin uses his "je ne sais quoi"... Whatever makes the Stormfather call him son of Tanavast and makes him a natural fighter and makes all the future predictions surround him and whatever has caused him to have all of these Herald related occupations (Surgeon: Vedel and Soldier: Taln and Guard: Chanarach and Slave/Freedom-fighter: Kalak and Logic-Advisor: Battar  and Wiseman-Advisor: Ishar and Spy/ Espionage: Shalash  and Leader: Jezrien) and Kaladin becomes the storm. He uses the storm to stop Taravangian from committing some attrocity that is so heinous that no one should ever have to witness it. This is all part of Taravangian's plan and by doing this, Kaladin is considered Honor and he breaks the commitment Dalinar made as Honor because it is during an armistice between sides and battle should cease for the contest of champions. Taravangian wins by default because Kaladin stopped him from killing a whole bunch of Listener babies, or something. Somehow Kaladin makes the storm do a whole bunch of weird stuff and Kaladin breaks the storm and stormlight, which is why the epigraphs talk about there being no light on the night of sorrows. 

 

I honestly have no firm opinion right now about the overarching Kaladin arch...

What I do know

Book 5 needs to be a loss. Taravangian is the big bad guy just introduced. He has a plan that Dalinar is not suspecting. All the odds seem to be in Taravangian's favor. Plus, if Taravangian wins Dalinar has guaranteed that Taravangian is still trapped and therefore this option is much more interesting.

Brandon thinks it was astute that someone noticed that Kaladin has been a Soldier like Taln and a Surgeon like Vedel and a Guard like Chanarach and maybe a 4th one... This was after book 2. I couldn't find the WoB.

"Kaladin has filled: Surgeon (Vedel), Soldier (Taln), Guard (Chana), and Leader/Windrunner (Jezrien)" This is what the person said.

Potentially...

There are deathrattles that talk about Darkness and the Lights going out. This, I think, is the Night of Sorrows. If the Night of Sorrows is the last of 3 Everstorm, True Desolation, Night of Sorrows... It needs to trump the first two. This makes me think that Stormlight will stop working (and it is a rather common theory that I heard first mentioned on Lost in Discovery YouTube channel). Furthermore, I think if this theory is right, it makes perfect sense why we might be following people like Lift and Renarin. Their powers work without Stormlight.

Whatever the Night of Sorrows is about, I think it needs to happen near Kaladin because Dalinar will be occupied by his battle of Champions.

So I would try to work Kaladin's Arch around

1 a 10 day trip with Szeth to meet with a mad Herald

2 him filling the roles of Nale and Paliah's jobs in the 5th and final book

3 Kaladin completing his arch since the pattern is 2 heralds per book and he needs to finish in this book.

4 An explanation for "son of Honor" because his arc is over

5 Taravangian being involved with Kaladins plan somehow (he is Taravangian)

6 Good guys surviving, kind of, but also losing. It would make for a good start from nothing start to the 2nd arc.

 

 

 

[Bort]

I'm going with option 1 here, the 5th Ideal, and then we'll see him either Ascend or die in the back half of the series.

Why do I think this? Because depression is a tricky one, and I don't think Brandon will be trying to to provoke people's depression into overdrive. Kaladin's major mental health issue is that he has severe depression, and we've seen him struggling with the question, "What's the point?" multiple times over different books. For him to reach book 5, then die before swearing his 5th Ideal, is a literal slap in the face of those who do have depression, who also struggle with "What's the point?" because the "point" has just been swept out from under them.

It would be both cruel and heartbreaking for them to see that the ultimate endpoint to Kaladin's story arc is, "Well, you were right all along, there was no point."

[TypicalShard]

I'm hoping for the herald route, that he'll take Jezrien's place one way or another. I honestly don't know if Kaladin will die in book 5, it feels both unlikely and possible at the same time. What I will say is having Kaladin die in the 5th book feels like the worst possible direction that could be taken. 

Kaladin turned his corner and got a good 10 days of being free from guilt and his suicidal thoughts, so now he can die. And the readers can be happy to know that he turned that corner before he passed into the beyond. It would almost feel mocking, Kaladin has finally reached a place where he can step away and work on himself only for him to die. But you can't die while you're struggling, because you still have a character arc and it's super compelling. 

[Frustration]

I'm actually hoping for a Kal death, if its done right.

None of this heroic sacrifice stuff, no. Odium's champion shows up early and beats Kal into the dirt before killing him.

Either that or acsend to Honor.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Frustration

[Ixthos]

On 2/4/2022 at 6:25 AM, Brightness Windrunner said:

Oooo I agree the first is the most predictable and likely.  But I'd also like to see some of those others play out.  

  Hide contents

I almost want the ideal to be off screen, with the book ending as Kaladin talking with Syl and telling her he finally knows it as he looks out into the sunset or something beautiful.  The book ends there, without the oath ever being given but we get an idea where he is going to be and that he is going to be ok. In some ways it's kind of cliche but in others it's not.  

 

Of all the options this one is my favourite, as it adds the question to lead into the next five books while still closing this one, and bookends Kaladin's journey. 

 

On 2/4/2022 at 10:19 AM, Kandrafish said:

Option 5?

Kaladin fulfills his greater destiny... Whatever this means... Kaladin uses his "je ne sais quoi"... Whatever makes the Stormfather call him son of Tanavast and makes him a natural fighter and makes all the future predictions surround him and whatever has caused him to have all of these Herald related occupations (Surgeon: Vedel and Soldier: Taln and Guard: Chanarach and Slave/Freedom-fighter: Kalak and Logic-Advisor: Battar  and Wiseman-Advisor: Ishar and Spy/ Espionage: Shalash  and Leader: Jezrien) and Kaladin becomes the storm. He uses the storm to stop Taravangian from committing some attrocity that is so heinous that no one should ever have to witness it. This is all part of Taravangian's plan and by doing this, Kaladin is considered Honor and he breaks the commitment Dalinar made as Honor because it is during an armistice between sides and battle should cease for the contest of champions. Taravangian wins by default because Kaladin stopped him from killing a whole bunch of Listener babies, or something. Somehow Kaladin makes the storm do a whole bunch of weird stuff and Kaladin breaks the storm and stormlight, which is why the epigraphs talk about there being no light on the night of sorrows. 

I like part of this, but not all - I think Dalinar (as KoW(t) was supposed to be the Bondsmith book, and Dalinar's heart was of paramount importance) so I don't think Kaladin is going to usurp Dalinar as Honour's representative (I think that's actually Bondsmith Gavilar whose going to try that) but rather he will still somehow become the storm, just not as a Bondsmith. It would fit the tale Wit told of Fleet.

 

The thing to consider is that Ishar said a Radiant swearing an oath near him would temporarily push back his madness. Szeth - as this is supposed to be the Skybreaker book - likely will swear some oaths near him, but it looks like Ishar's madness isn't blocked for long by an oath being sworn, so unless higher oaths push it back for longer - so when Navani swore her oath and bonded the Sibling it was an early oath and didn't have a major effect for long, but if she had been swearing the fourth or fifth oath his madness would have left for a longer period - it may be that Kaladin swearing an oath is needed to help contain Ishar's madness for a while, as otherwise we will only have a few moments of sanity from Szeth's oaths - unless there are more Radiants around - but Kaladin and Szeth together could buy more time and work together to help Ishar's mind. It also could be that Szeth and Kaladin swear the fifth oath together, that their final two oaths are compliments, their two ideals parts of each other, and collectively grant Ishar even more time sane. Kaladin swearing his ideal to help Ishar, possibly as a form of reconciliation with Szeth, seems to make sense.

[Draginon]

I’m not sure which I’d want. I think what I’d want is that he comes close to what the Ideal is but something more important is there that swearing the Ideal is pointless, like if he becomes a new Herald if they need 10 new ones to recreate the Oathpact, though it might help if he needs to be at that level to be accepted as a new Herald, or if he takes up either Honor or Cultivation’s Shards since at that point it’s pointless to swear it when you’re a God.

I’m also torn on if he should die or not since he just made up with his family and everything so to put them into the path of losing him again would be GRRM levels of cruel.

[AerionBFII]

I’d love for Kaladin to play a role in the greater Cosmere but I think he’s going to go out in a blaze of glory and become a mythical figure. 
 

Like in future books when Worldhoppers visit Roshar and see his statue they’re be like “Wow, he looks so serious” 

Edited March 12, 2022 by AerionBFII

[worldwithinworld]

I think Kaladin is going to live and still be important in the 2nd half of the series. I think his 5th ideal is going to bring in more of the leadership side of being a Windrunner. Kaladin has been working as a Knight Radiant in the context of being an obedient soldier. Now that he's out of the military and about to leave Alethkar for the first time in his life, I think he's going to get a new perspective on how things could be and how he can make big changes in society.

I can't imagine Szeth's assassination vacation will sit well with Kaladin. He will especially not be pleased to discover that Dalinar approved it considering how Kaladin decided against assassinating Elhokar mostly to not make Dalinar sad. He's going to stop Szeth, but Szeth is going to make him think more about the importance of justice, and when Kal returns to Urithiru he's going to start working protecting people through promoting a fairer society, (this may be his 5th ideal). He's going to find himself in opposition to slavery defender Dalinar, and this time Kaladin won't submit. He's going to step into a larger leadership role to right the wrongs he's complained about since book 1.

[Morningtide]

I think that option 1 is the most likely, probably with some sort of wrench or twist thrown in by Brandon that none of us will have thought of yet. 

I reaaaaaaaaaaaaallly hate any theory that involved Kaladin dying, especially before the 5th ideal. Basically, I feel like he just got to the turning point in his character arc. He's going to start being happy (hopefully) and he's not going to want to die anymore. It seems cruel and very different from Brandon's usual style to kill off a character who just started to enjoy life. Kaladin needs more than the 10 days before the contest to live with his life and be happy. 

[Kaladin's Girl]

All I can say is that I think Kaladin is meant for great things. MR. SANDERSON, IF KALADIN DIES I WILL NOT READ ANYMORE STORMLIGHT BOOKS!!!!!

Edited March 21, 2022 by Kaladin's Girl

[thetntm]

It might be a bad idea to post here, as I'm still starting RoW, and I know that I might be necroposting, but I strongly believe that Kaladin will swear the 5th ideal, but we'll get a reveal of some kind that the 5th ideal is not what we thought it was. Maybe upon swearing the 5th ideal you become a herald yourself, or something else happens upon swearing the 5th ideal that'll push the story forward in such a huge way that it justifies the separation of part 1 of stormlight and part 2.

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ]

On 2/4/2022 at 1:19 AM, Kandrafish said:

Kaladin becomes the storm.

I think we need to consider what the fifth ideal will actually do. Because so far we have one example: Nale. Nale says that when you swear the sky breaker fifth ideal you become justice. Justice is also the theme of sky breakers.

The theme of wind runners is Honor. If a Windrunner, say Kaladin, swore the fifth ideal, would he become… Honor

Hence “son of Tanavast”?

Also…

Spoiler

In the prologue for Storm light 5, Gavilar is trying to become immortal.

He does this by saying words.

Could it be the fifth ideal—“most important words a man can say”—to become immortal?

Honor could also combat Odium

[The Stick]

I feel like Kaladin will probably die, or become a figure of idolization almost like the Originators. I think a Kaladin death would be very interesting to see if done right. Perhaps he could finally swear the fifth ideal to protect Moash. He dies, allowing Moash to get off the Odium drug and inspires him to change in the back half. This only works if Brandon is planning a Moash redemption arc. Nobody start a discussion of that here, I have a whole nother thread on Moash. The other option for a Kaladin death I think may have something to do with Lirin. Maybe he swears fifth ideal and defends Lirin and dies. Or maybe even a massive twist with the fifth ideal being him allowing others to protect him and Lirin killing to save Kaladin. I think Brandon could go some interesting directions here.

[IntentAwesome]

Wild, unsubstantiated theory: Dalinar will lose the battle of champions and thereby become a slave to Odium, but in order to not have the remnants of Honor/Stormfather also enslaved, Dalinar will somehow transfer the bond to Kaladin at the last minute. 

And then we get to watch Kaladin/Syl/Stormfather shenanigans.

[Hatman]

On 2/14/2022 at 3:03 AM, Ixthos said:

I like part of this, but not all - I think Dalinar (as KoW(t) was supposed to be the Bondsmith book, and Dalinar's heart was of paramount importance) so I don't think Kaladin is going to usurp Dalinar as Honour's representative (I think that's actually Bondsmith Gavilar whose going to try that) but rather he will still somehow become the storm, just not as a Bondsmith. It would fit the tale Wit told of Fleet.

OB was the Bondsmith book. KoWT is the Skybreaker book. 

[Ixthos]

On 6/30/2023 at 5:07 PM, Hatman said:

OB was the Bondsmith book. KoWT is the Skybreaker book. 

Yes, but originally Brandon was unsure about which one to make Oathbringer - he eventually settled on Dalinar and the Bondsmiths, but another option was Szeth and the Skybreakers. When Brandon decided to make Oathbringer the Bondsmith book he made the fifth book about the Skynbreakers.

 

Quote

Questioner

So, I was gonna ask about which character the next book would focus on?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, no, that's not spoilery... I said from the get-go I am perfectly all right writing a flashback sequence for a character who has already died in the books. So it's not telling you any spoilers to tell you who the various characters are. So, the front five are Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Eshonai, and Szeth. Those are our front five. And our back five are Lift, Jasnah, Ash, Taln, and Renarin. And, not in that order. I've flipped the order quite a bit as I've been going. 'Cause Dalinar was gonna be book five, and now he's book three. So now Szeth is book five, and Eshonai is book four. Right now, Lift is book six. But the back five, I'm not concerned about, other than making sure I'm setting up the right things, and it's gonna come together.

Oathbringer Glasgow signing (Dec. 2, 2017)

 

[SirNoSell]

On 04/02/2022 at 8:19 AM, Kandrafish said:

"Kaladin has filled: Surgeon (Vedel), Soldier (Taln), Guard (Chana), and Leader/Windrunner (Jezrien)" This is what the person said.

I actually posted a theory that fits with this line of reasoning aside from the soldier part because windrunners and stonewards are kind of interchangeable when it comes to martial ability and both orders are pretty much made up of soldiers.

[Fyodor32768]

eaten by chasmfiend offscreen. Mentioned briefly and forgotten.

[Firesong]

On 6/18/2023 at 4:39 PM, IntentAwesome said:

Wild, unsubstantiated theory: Dalinar will lose the battle of champions and thereby become a slave to Odium, but in order to not have the remnants of Honor/Stormfather also enslaved, Dalinar will somehow transfer the bond to Kaladin at the last minute. 

And then we get to watch Kaladin/Syl/Stormfather shenanigans.

I feel it is actually quite substantiated, I feel it is pretty strongly implied something really bad happens at the end of SA5, not only have we had the whole series build up how bloody terrifying Odium could be with a smarter and more calculated Vessel, various Death Rattles

Quote

A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears.

Quote

Light grows so distant. The storm never stops. I am broken, and all around me have died. I weep for the end of all things. He has won. Oh, he has beaten us.

Quote

And all the world was shattered! The rocks trembled with their steps, and the stones reached toward the heavens. We die! We die! 

Quote

 

So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life... 

Quote

Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns. 

and constant use of the phrase "Odium reigns"

and (TLM Spoilers)

Spoiler

as we have a lot of Rosharan stuff on Scadrial in TLM (Iriali, what seem to be Horneaters, and Chouta), which I feel implies a max exodus. 

Also, think of this, if they won in SA5, what would there be for the story in SA6-10? Like, I am pretty convinced that the end will go very badly for everyone involved. 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Firesong

[Fyodor32768]

I'm not saying that we won't get a bad ending but also possible to have Odium lose but have an ongoing fight against the Fused, Unmade, etc. The RoW Odium/Dalinar meetup has Odium saying that he can't bind his minions.