Anniversary Game 8 / AN11: Back to Beginnings

[Salmon Meerkat]

30 minutes ago, Scarlet Octopus said:

 

There are a couple of options for what those manipulations mean. He have at least two vote manips, that is true beyond doubt. They could be two soothers, one soother and a rioter who moved on to a smoked target, thus canceling their vote and having no other effect, or two rioters who went on to smoked targets. I have opinions, but little time. More in an hour or so.

at least two vote manips agreed 

parsimony requires us to not postulate more unless we think there is reason we have been mistaken

to retype what oct said + add my own thoughts on possibilities:

• 2 soothers
• 1 soother & 1 rioter who hit smoked
• 2 rioters who hit smoked
• 2 rioters who hit same target
• 2 rioters who did not read the rules and tried to riot from no vote to a vote

anything else requires postulation of more vote manips which ok not impossible but i'd rather not get rube goldberg rn if no reason 4 it

hitting smoked is interesting b/c village meta in tyrian has historically been v v v rabidly anti-smoking

think likelihood is small unless smoker misread rules and didn't realise coppercloud had to go off

which in turn implies either the smoked targets are likely hostiles (ur elim smoker may not want to burn night action on extending coppercloud) and/or the elims knew this and were happy to just have the vote disappear by hitting the known teammate with coppercloud

this though would entail that we have another smoker-rioter combination on elim team which as scorp pointed out (to give credit where credit is due) seems moderately unlikely they would be given

>edit did not read rules-itis seems to be impossible as gms have said they will warn if player tries to take invalid action + vote would not be lost therefore:

• 2 soothers
• 1 soother & 1 rioter who hit smoked
• 2 rioters who hit smoked
• 2 rioters who hit same target

Edited January 6, 2022 by Salmon Meerkat

[Saffron Iguana]

8 minutes ago, Amethyst Scorpion said:

I'm not Mint Heron who was one of the people who broke a tie D4 of LG 79, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I didn't think Mauve should die and moved my vote to one of the two places it could have made a difference. I chose Turquoise over you because I was wary of Magenta and then Turquoise showing up last minute, but I was also there at the end and Turquoise wouldn't have voted for Mauve after supporting them earlier so I can't expect much else. How about everyone else who was around for rollover and didn't have their vote on one of the three main trains? Especially @Melon Dingo who was demonstrably there but didn't vote at all?

Are you a disappointing candy given with the cheque at a restaurant, because you're not Mint. 

I didn't think you were them, I was merely reminded that evil players have in past used thread summaries to bulk up their posts to make their late votes look more reasoned and less like vote manipulation. 

Thanks for noting Dingo's presence. I suspect several Spiked were on near the end of that round, hence my interest in you at the moment. 

6 minutes ago, Salmon Meerkat said:

hitting smoked is interesting b/c village meta in tyrian has historically been v v v rabidly anti-smoking

My assumption is that villagers usually smoke during the day to prevent vote manipulation and the Spiked smoke at night to prevent alignment scans, unless in forgetting something. 

[Turquoise Gorilla]

*Blood pools on the floor under Mauve Crocodile's corpse, as cheery opening music plays* *Gorilla walks onstage, hair frazzled and tears running down eyes* Keep it together, Gorilla. Keep it together. *ahem* *ahemmm* heLLO EVERYONE!!! We- *cough* Welcome BACK to SANDERSON ELIMINATION! The 17th Shard's FA-FAVOOORITE GAME SHOOOOOOW! (I'm OKAY, Martha! *sob*) AS UUUUUUSUAL, we have MURDERED BRUTALLY one of our contestants!!!!!!!! Woo. OKAY. Let's get on with things. SO, Turquoise, what do YOU think about this recent development? (Yeah, yeah. I can be a host and a contestant at the same - at the same ttttime. Dddon't ddon't doubttt mmmeeee, MARTHA!) [WELL, Gorilla, I think this was not a good development!] Yeah, yeah, yeah, we can see that! [Yeah!] *stands there awkwardly* *sobs quietly* 

[Salmon Meerkat]

16 minutes ago, Saffron Iguana said:

My assumption is that villagers usually smoke during the day to prevent vote manipulation and the Spiked smoke at night to prevent alignment scans, unless in forgetting something. 

smoking lasts for two consecutive turns unless u turn it off on a night turn and on again on a day turn

village smokers could do that and that would be smart imo - but that being said we started this game on a day turn rather than the usual night 

and historically this assumption just doesn't bear up 

players have been v reluctant to smoke even in the day and smokers have typically caught flak (hi) for doing so

the preference usually just is to lock cloud off

>edit i suspect there is an element of 'so i don't forget' about it b/c smokers default start with cloud on

Edited January 6, 2022 by Salmon Meerkat

[Amethyst Scorpion]

19 minutes ago, Saffron Iguana said:

I didn't think you were them, I was merely reminded that evil players have in past used thread summaries to bulk up their posts to make their late votes look more reasoned and less like vote manipulation. 

Thanks for noting Dingo's presence. I suspect several Spiked were on near the end of that round, hence my interest in you at the moment.

The thread summary is the reasoning, so I might as well include it. Evil players do indeed include summaries for late votes, but so do villagers. Ivory and Amber did similar things as Mint that turn and were both villagers. 

Do you think that Mauve, you, and Turquoise were all villagers, in which case the Spiked wouldn't need to care; or that I was an elim was trying to bus a teammate (Turquoise) for village points if they died?

 

[Salmon Meerkat]

@Fifth Scholar, @Elbereth - actually can we get a clarification on whether smokers can send in an order every turn or not? i realise the implication of the off on night turn on on day turn ruling is that u can send in an order any turn

as far as i can recall standard tyrian only allows smokers to act at night - hence the cooldown problem and a rabidly anti-smoking village

but standard tyrian is already problematic b/c the game began on a night turn hence the actions skew and the smokers problem if smokers can only first switch off during n1

if smokers can switch on in the day and off at night then smokers should absolutely do that

>edit - @fifth @el - if smokers can act in the day, can we also get an ooa including vm and the lynch and

and u know what can we get a night ooa pls just to be clear b/c i don't want to assume xD

>editedit > sorry i haz more qns - the clarification wording talks about activation: is activation the same as deactivating copperclouds wrt to the two possible actions for a smoker: deactivating coppercloud + extending it?

Edited January 6, 2022 by Salmon Meerkat

[Melon Dingo]

50 minutes ago, Amethyst Scorpion said:

Especially @Melon Dingo who was demonstrably there but didn't vote at all?

I will say - I had to leave about 10 minutes before rollover. I was on until then, and still chose not to vote, mainly because the candidates weren't the ones I had largely been looking at. Plus a close execution leaves vote manipulation around to play, which is information I like to have. And decisions are pressure. Make of that what you will.

 

Scimon Tlag was not exactly happy with the death of Riggs. For one thing, they'd nearly closed a deal. For another, the reasoning for choosing him above the others was because he was drunkenly shouting his wares, which was about half of Tlag's job description. There were already a few whispers about his work and interactions with Su, but he'd heard worse and from far quicker reactions. Still, that usually happened after someone noticed the sugarleaf or the qui-no.

Fortunately the village wasn't quite so desperate to go for another try upon discovering his innocence, which gave him a chance to give a brief, somewhat-public eulogy. "I'll try and remember your name. Riggs. You know where that name comes from? It was one of the Lord Ruler's first supporters. Back when his supporters didn't cross the entire continent, when the Deepness was still known and the Mists still young. Back when his supporters actually had his ear and could make a change, instead of just being yes men."

"That's your history fact, I guess. That that man once existed. That those times sure existed. Because they sure don't now."

Tlag gave a sad grin, slowly rotating the small chain of silver in his hand. "I hope you heard that, wherever you are." Maybe he should ask Su that. He had some idea, but only a small one.

Now, it was time to see what the nightlife of this town was. 

[Salmon Meerkat]

Loenthal had come that was the word someone had tried to kill the lord and Kellehrt had never held much with lords, he paid his taxes, as his father had, and his father’s father

you relied on these things, on taxes, on obligation, and some had been whispering that Loenthal would save them from the koloss and the saboteurs or that

the Ja would, praise be unto him

and Kellehrt shook his head but said nothing because Loenthal had been there the day his father broke, and Loenthal had been there the day his father was executed, the day they bound him and brought him to the village square

his mother had written of it, Kellehrt hadn’t been there, he was making nails in Luthadel then and disappointment was dripping off every word in her letters

what do you want of me, he wanted to ask her, but part of him felt shame that that man was his father and part of him felt shame that he hadn’t been there and part of him feared

the same blood that ran in his veins

and sometimes he dreamed he was there, listening to the contempt of the villagers of Tyrian Falls, listening to the mockery and the stones as his father was brought to die

and he had to die, Kellehrt understood that, understood that even men like his father, who made nails and fireplace grates and pokers and horsehoes and sickles and all the tools and implements that the villagers of Tyrian Falls had ever needed, could go deeply wrong

could do deeds so terrible that even now staring at the greylight as evening fell

his father came back to his mind again, the way he’d whispered (his mother said) of ruin to come

only the ruin had come from inside, from his father

you are not your father, said Warmmha, and Kellehrt had to believe him, had to strive for something better, like the girl caught in the fires of Luthadel as the mobs grew closer to the shop in Ironside, in the Stacks, as fellow skaa rampaged through the city slashing burning looting shouting

and other skaa ran from them in fear because the nobles never did because why would nobles have anything to fear and he certainly hadn’t seen fear in Loenthal’s eyes

when he demanded an explanation

sometimes, Wark shrugged, there is no explanation

i don’t like that, he said, everything should have an explanation

because his father’s actions were a question, forever a question, and no one, not even Loenthal, had been interested in why and sometimes it seemed he and his mother were the only ones to keep asking

sometimes people do terrible things, Wark continued, as though he was talking about cutting the queue to buy baywraps, as though he wasn’t talking about slaughter or murder or arson or the thousand awful things he saw everyday in the Luthadel watch, things that put the shadows in his eyes

there hadn’t been shadows in his fathers eyes and Kellehrt wonders if doing the deed breaks you or if you have to be broken for the shadows to reach into you

he’d distrusted Riggs when they spoke, saw the slashes of tattoos around his eyes, the way Riggs always rolled dice as though measuring him, asking Kellehrt what it would take for him to be willing to condemn another man to death, as though the shadow of the noose lurked behind his words

Warmmha, he didn’t want that, didn’t want the shadow

of death lurking like the black cat that followed Wark home every night to the corner of the block and then stopped as though it knew the point where Wark the watchman became

became just Wark

sometimes people need to accept the consequences of their actions, Wark said, once

sometimes, said Warmmha, people don’t have a choice and people are scared

or maybe Kellehrt said that

sometimes it was hard to tell the difference between the words God breathed into his ear and his heart and his own words

and did it matter, was it presumption?

derision sometimes and it cut like the blade of the scythe through the harvest in the golden light of the afternoon because who was he to question and who was he that the words of Warmmha would have reached him

you are all such children, said Warmmha with a terrible sadness and staring at the broken body of Riggs, seeing it again in his mind in the bloody light of dusk, Kellehrt prayed that God would speed Riggs on his way and give him peace and light

[Emerald Falcon]

4 hours ago, Saffron Iguana said:

Had the same timing and style as evil Heron's from LG79 D3.

This is probably a villager.

~ Fine Coinshot kills by principle
Saffron Iguana
Turquoise Gorilla
Pearl Chameleon

~ Not bad but not ideal
Azure Mouse
Sunburst Toucan
Sapphire Elephant
Plum Rhinoceros

Onyx Flamingo
Opal Lion
Oxblood Beagle
Ivory Dragonfly
Quartz Zebra

~ Wouldn't ever shoot this early
Amber Vulture
Charcoal Hyena
Chartreuse Penguin
Coral Swan
Salmon Meerkat

~ Idc do as you will this is what's left over
Melon Dingo
Scarlet Octopus
Violet Axolotl

Amethyst Scorpion
Fuchsia Ostrich
Magenta Albatross
Mint Heron

[Azure Mouse]

*blink* * blink* Helloooooo?? Helloooo? Hel- Oh. Um, I overslept again didn’t I? Hmmm that was quite the dream. Need to write that one down in the dream journal. Something about unicorns allergic to hay I think. 

Well, looks like I’ve missed quite a bit. 

Eh, it’s all fake anyways according to my dream last week. What else could those pink puffy pikachus pouncing on the poor puppies mean? 

Does anyone have some fairy wings I could borrow? My therapist keeps trying to convince me that they’re just mayfly wings BUT I KNOW THE TRUTH SHARON!!! She also keeps trying to get me to stop drinking my enlightenment potions. I keep reassuring her that the ingredients that I got from the guy in that really creepy alley are all certified for consuming. The guy told me so himself. He was also really weird about me telling where I got those leaves from. He said he would find me and “get” me if it took the rest of his life to search? I gave him my address so he wouldn’t have to spend so much time looking. What a funny guy.

Guys!!! The world is spinning again! It’s happening!! 

Oh wait, nevermind, I just haven’t eaten in a few days.

*munch* *munch* *munch*

Well... that was disappointing. 

 

[Emerald Falcon]

6 hours ago, Fifth Scholar said:

Fuchsia Ostrich, Onyx Flamingo,

Noticing that the only person i remotely trust on the wagon was iguana and that's a pretty conditional

[Charcoal Hyena]

Sorry for not being online yesterday everyone  my housemate and I woke up with some pretty bad symptons, so we had to get tested for corona and have been resting since. I ended up sleeping much longer than I intended, though I'm feeling well enough to sit at the computer for now. I missed a ton and I'm a slow/deliberate reader, so it'll probably take me a while to catch up, but I will try to respond to everyone who addressed me since my departure, as well as figure out what the heck happened with the execution (I guess that's what it's being called nowadays).

Edited January 6, 2022 by Charcoal Hyena

[Salmon Meerkat]

fragmented meerkat thoughts:

• i have also got a light id read of scorp - if my id read is correct then this is standard behaviour for scorp; if my id read isn't correct, it looks a bit worse for scorp - either way, this implies to me i need to look more closely at the voting context closer to rollover more later
   
• for me, what's tonally odd is how self-conscious or defensive scorp is when voting:

  Quote

  Gorilla has now voted. I don't like getting ties on purpose. I don't feel great about Saffron. I really don't like this late minute push on them so

  devo has been known to do this sort of last minute vote intervention with commentary & im not unsympathetic as i have a tendency to think aloud into the thread & pms, but the more i look at it, the more i feel the Heron comparison is appropriate here because of how self-conscious (and almost defensive) the commentary is. considering ties still kill in this game unlike past tyrian games, that's a lot of handwringing for what isn't exactly awful especially if u really find the state of the votes so objectionable
   
• that being said, both devo (village) and striker/heron (evil) display some amount of handwringing here (from the same game iguana cites - ty iguana it was a good read) but my view is the historical comparison only goes so far - it does illuminate what i regard as a tonal oddity & a sign to go back and deepread scorp et al & to try to figure out how i read the last voteswaps of the cycle
   
• falcon - i m confused y u mention tt u think iguana is village & u also rec iguana to be coinshot y do u want to infokill someone u say u think is village (b/c it surely can't be a suspicion kill)
   
• hyena - gws & tc, looking forward 2 hearing frm u
   
• this jumps out @ me a bit b/c im trying 2 understand what falcon is saying - y is swan of concern when swan had 2 votes @ that point in the cycle? i get the unease w/ cycle quietness given ties & i am a bit confused at why the lack of pushback is startling b/c in a cycle w/ a 3 way (near 5 way) & vote manip, i feel like quietness implies either vote was sufficiently diluted (1/3 odds not bad odds & again, possibility of dilution to 1/5 per candidate), no elims were threatened (of concern yes) or behind-the-scenes vote manip
   
• i'm of the view good coinshot targets should be secondary lynch: this allows the benefit of discussion & requires elims to be proactive if they want to influence the kill but sometimes coinshot gonna coinshot: with that being said i would agree with going after a suspect in the <iguana, gorilla, cham> pool - we want as clear sight of the D1 lynch situation as we can get & so i agree with vulture on this note

[Charcoal Hyena]

Quote

My initial read of this was that you're delaying your vote on Chameleon in case the Spiked plan to make them the primary target today is changed, but I hope to be proved wrong. If they're village and the Cham vote falls through, the Spiked have probably prepared ways to subtly move their votes or have held votes in reserve in case one of their own becomes the likely target. This kind of hedging, the important need to sleep aside, looks like that. 

Completely fair read, though ultimately wrong  from my point of view, I had a small mindmeld with Pearl at the very start that I read as village, only to see other people finding reasons for voting him, which gave me cause to step back and think "Okay, maybe there's a good reason for me to think on this player further." That and I find player alignment is most telling when they're at risk of dying; meaning that Pearl's posts while under threat would tell me more about them than any opening post mindmeld. Does that make sense to anyone but me? xD

Quote

Mauve brings up the fact that you said Mauve retracted from Pearl when this was not true. If you and Pearl were both elims the number of votes on Pearl would be more pressing, so this is not an E/E pairing. You have however assigned Pearl pronouns that haven't been specified publicly, which would be suspicious if not for the previous sentence.

Ah, I see the confusion now (on my part, and the subsequent confusion you've experienced). I shall post the quote from a Mauve post that mislead me below.

As for the pronouns bit, I'm actually not sure when that happened, if it did at all, though I wouldn't be surprised. I've had to replace a ton of "he/hims" with "they/thems" while I've been writing posts because for whatever reason, male pronouns are my subconscious default online when an account doesn't have a non-male PFP. 

Quote

I had anticipated my vote would be the second one to land on Chameleon, but as you can see I haven't retracted it on account of it actually being the third.

Sorry for that, Chameleon.

You will have to take me at my word when I say I am someone who believes that D1 votes should have teeth. Or beaks, I suppose, if you are an octopus. The sooner the vote becomes something where people can actually envision a particular outcome for, and maybe react to that outcome, the better.

If anyone doesn't like that there are three votes on Chameleon right now, well then I urge them to cast a vote for someone else  except 

I accidentally read that first line as "I have retracted it on account of it actually being the third," which then lead to me reading the last line "I urge them to cast a vote for someone else" as trying to get more votes off Pearl. That's why I thought it was odd and a possible E/E reaction

As for the rest of Amethyst's post, a lot of it feels very logical to me, or at least uses logic I'm fond of. This bit in particular I heavily read as a villager trying to solve the game:

Quote

More things have happened since this point and now Pearl, Coral, and Turquoise are in the mix. Pearl and Coral could be E/E, Turquoise and Pearl could be E/E in which case the swing from one to the other was village driven, Coral and Turquoise aren't E/E. I'll vote for Pearl Chameleon.

Overall, much happier with this slot now that they've interacted with the thread more.
 

I've gone ahead and caught up, but will need to go through with a finer tooth comb after I get some food and medicine in me. The EoD in particular seems ripe with juicy info so I'm looking forward to it

 

edit: missed a reply!

Quote

at risk of further chaos - Gorilla, Hyena

im interested in y u feel the need to call attention to the fact u began ur readslist prior to the game starting

I wouldn't call it a need, but Chartreuse's initial vote on me was explicitly for making a reads list, rather than the content of my reads list  it felt apt to point out that the reads list itself was NAI since I began doing it before logging off my real account. On principle, I'd rather be judged by the words I say over how I structure them, since 9 times out of 10, the structure of my posts are based on my personal preference and brain organization

In case anyone is confused, about 90% of that post's content was after knowing my alignment too, and the 10% I left from before had no reason to be changed. I just forgot to switch to the anon account before digging into the thread, but fortunately, I realized it relatively quickly. It wasn't me preemptively preparing to be an eliminator as Amber Vulture assumed in their megapost; I'm sometimes just a bit dumb and too eager for my own good

Edited January 6, 2022 by Charcoal Hyena

[Salmon Meerkat]

28 minutes ago, Charcoal Hyena said:

In case anyone is confused, about 90% of that post's content was after knowing my alignment too, and the 10% I left from before had no reason to be changed. I was just dumb and forgot to switch to the anon account before digging into the thread, but fortunately I realized it relatively quickly

yes, that's what i picked up - u mentioned u began working on it before u found ur alignment, but then u say about 90% was done after knowing ur alignment

it's only logical: u couldn't have done an informative readslist pre-alignment w/out knowing ur alignment whether village or elim

if about 90% was done after knowing ur alignment, y tell us u began it before u found ur alignment?

what's the point of calling attention to that? deflection?

>edit to be clear im saying tt if u had to do about 90% of it after u know ur alignment and kept 10%, telling us u started it before just seems potentially deflecting or weird - ur not really indebted to the list u began so y call attention to that when explaining/defending your list of reads

Edited January 6, 2022 by Salmon Meerkat

[Charcoal Hyena]

1 minute ago, Salmon Meerkat said:

yes, that's what i picked up - u mentioned u began working on it before u found ur alignment, but then u say about 90% was done after knowing ur alignment

it's only logical: u couldn't have done an informative readslist pre-alignment w/out knowing ur alignment whether village or elim

if about 90% was done after knowing ur alignment, y tell us u began it before u found ur alignment?

what's the point of calling attention to that? deflection?

Okay, here's the post where Chartreuse voted for me.

Quote

Charcoal Hyena

Before anyone demands for a reason, this is largely just gut  Their first ever post being this big reads list kinda rubs me the wrong way cuz on one hand it's always great n all to have reads, but it's also often used by elims early in the game to gain village cred cuz they can always switch their reads up after this because 'it's only Day 1' and also this sneaky statement here just throws em all out the window dont it?  Non-committal vibe

Chartreuse voted for me because I made a reads list, which elims apparently do to get early village cred. I challenged this by saying I began working on a reads list with no knowledge of my alignment. I'd have done it either way, because that was my plan from the start. My response later was as follows:

Quote

I can't say anything for other elims using early reads list, but what I can say is that I began writing the post before even logging in and learning my alignment. For me, it's easiest to compartmentalize players into colors (green meaning I don't want to lynch them today, yellow meaning I want to interact with this person more and figure them out better before I decide, and red meaning people I find suspicious and want to put on the defensive). I mostly solve games via Process of Elimination, and generally am better at finding villagers for being villagery over elims being elimmy. By narrowing the pool down, I'm usually able to focus my efforts and pinpoint the most likely suspect. Furthermore, I wanted my post to serve as a kind of "ice-breaker" for the other active players by giving them all something they could respond to. I haven't played a game in a very long time, but this strategy is one I used often. I figured it'd be especially useful since I have no (known) past rapport to banter about while probing others with questions.

As for switching reads bit, that's actually a good thing! Generally, if you have a reads list from a villager every day with thought processes attached, you'll see a very consistent and gradual progression. Meanwhile, eliminators switching reads with poor or forced reasoning becomes obvious, allowing us to root them out later  if it weren't so much work, I would encourage all villagers to keep a similar record public.

My entire point was, don't judge anyone's post because of something silly like "it's done in this particular way, which elims have done in the past." Judge it for its content, in the here and now. What is the player saying? Does it make sense from their point of view? Does it remain consistent as time goes on? From my experience, that'll more likely net you an elim.
 

[Salmon Meerkat]

4 minutes ago, Charcoal Hyena said:

Judge it for its content, in the here and now. What is the player saying? Does it make sense from their point of view? Does it remain consistent as time goes on?

I think that's a slightly disingenuous presentation of Penguin's claim, actually, but that's a two-way problem.

Penguin's beef seems to me to not just be the readslist (which as you point out, is done by both Villagers and Elims (hello Elhokar!)) but the fact that your readslist is done as a toneread list: 

6 minutes ago, Charcoal Hyena said:

Their first ever post being this big reads list kinda rubs me the wrong way cuz on one hand it's always great n all to have reads, but it's also often used by elims early in the game to gain village cred cuz they can always switch their reads up after this because 'it's only Day 1' and also this sneaky statement here just throws em all out the window dont it?  Non-committal vibe

I read this as being a different emphasis: Penguin is accusing your readslist of being non-committal. Being non-committal could indeed be a Villager trait, as I have more or less been the thread king of indecision, but it could also be an Elim trait, and a readslist that comes across as extremely non-committal is one I could reasonably see a player going, "If you are this hedgy, then it looks like you are posting this readslist just to gain easy Village credit by appearing to put in effort to engage with the game." That is a good place for an Elim to try to coast by and so a good place to apply pressure to.

I think Penguin is also pushing you a bit hard for a toneread I don't share. I generally expect D1 reads to be more gut-based, especially since I'm not much of a post-reader - if anything, the claim to have begun the readslist before is what draws my attention because it seems very superfluous.

16 minutes ago, Charcoal Hyena said:

Chartreuse voted for me because I made a reads list, which elims apparently do to get early village cred. I challenged this by saying I began working on a reads list with no knowledge of my alignment. I'd have done it either way, because that was my plan from the start. My response later was as follows:

That is a very long way to say "quod scripsi scripsi" or "yes, and everyone does it" but I also think it is missing the point of contention; that being said, I lean towards "early D1 gut reads are understandable" as my take on the situation.

12 minutes ago, Charcoal Hyena said:

From my experience, that'll more likely net you an elim.

i certainly hope ur experience will net us more elims in the days to come =)

i look forward to hearing what views u have formed of the end of the day voting

[Charcoal Hyena]

1 minute ago, Salmon Meerkat said:

I think that's a slightly disingenuous presentation of Penguin's claim, actually, but that's a two-way problem.

Penguin's beef seems to me to not just be the readslist (which as you point out, is done by both Villagers and Elims (hello Elhokar!)) but the fact that your readslist is done as a toneread list: 

I read this as being a different emphasis: Penguin is accusing your readslist of being non-committal. Being non-committal could indeed be a Villager trait, as I have more or less been the thread king of indecision, but it could also be an Elim trait, and a readslist that comes across as extremely non-committal is one I could reasonably see a player going, "If you are this hedgy, then it looks like you are posting this readslist just to gain easy Village credit by appearing to put in effort to engage with the game." That is a good place for an Elim to try to coast by and so a good place to apply pressure to.

Ah, I think I see where you're coming from now. I think I mentally put more weight into the first half than the second half because the second is based on a hypothetical future. Whether or not I end up being non-committal can only be determined by further development of my reads lists and where I vote going forward, based on the context of said reads. What I could do, however, was respond to Chartreuse's faulty preconception of reads lists by highlighting my own mindset behind them

[Salmon Meerkat]

50 minutes ago, Charcoal Hyena said:

Whether or not I end up being non-committal can only be determined by further development of my reads lists and where I vote going forward, based on the context of said reads.

This is true of the diachronic accusation but it is also true that Penguin seems to have a synchronic accusation that your readslist is set up to be vague. In a way, Penguin's diachronic accusation is directly dependent on the synchronic accusation since the accusation that your readslist is meant to set up for future easy retraction (i.e. the diachronic accusation) only has teeth if the claim that you have baked indecision and a lot of retraction room into your readslist obtains, i.e. the synchronic accusation.

@Chartreuse Penguin

Please help me understand your dispute as I try to solidify my views/reads of the interactions of D1. At this point I am leaning towards it being a typical D1 squabble - dependent on my read of the other main trains and pre-rollover voting, I could see this as being a potential instance of splinter-train tactics instead. (Note that if I am committed to Hyena's train being splinter-train, I am committed IMO to E!Penguin, V!Hyena, and likely E!Cham or E!someone in the main three, depending on the exact vote chronology.)

>Edit: This means I am likely committed to E!Iguana or E!Gorilla, but more likely E!Cham, as I could see splinter-train tactics being simply stowaway tactics instead.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Salmon Meerkat

[Magenta Albatross]

9 hours ago, Salmon Meerkat said:

>edit did not read rules-itis seems to be impossible as gms have said they will warn if player tries to take invalid action + vote would not be lost therefore:

• 2 soothers
• 1 soother & 1 rioter who hit smoked
• 2 rioters who hit smoked
• 2 rioters who hit same target

2 Soothers

1 Soother and 1 Rioter who targeted the same player

1 Soother, and 1 Rioter who hit a smoked player

2 Rioters who hit smoked players

2 Rioters who hit the same player

1 Rioter who canceled a vote instead of moving it

Saffron could have saved themself as Smoker, but can't be Rioter.

Gorilla could be Rioter or Soother.

Not saying either is those roles just possibilities.

I don't think Saffron and Gorilla are both elim, the only way I see that being possible is if both manips came from the elim team, but even then I think this would be cutting it close for that to be the case.

They could both be village, or 1 and 1. I have other thoughts but need to wait for my next break to write them down if I have time.

[Scarlet Octopus]

10 hours ago, Salmon Meerkat said:

+ vote would not be lost

 

11 hours ago, Fifth Scholar said:

Soothing or Rioting a Smoked player does not move that player’s vote. The Rioter’s own vote will still be cancelled.

That's an incorrect assumption. 

[Salmon Meerkat]

7 minutes ago, Scarlet Octopus said:

 

 

That's an incorrect assumption. 

reading is a fun exercise ive found =P

10 hours ago, Salmon Meerkat said:

>edit did not read rules-itis seems to be impossible as gms have said they will warn if player tries to take invalid action + vote would not be lost therefore:

• 2 soothers
• 1 soother & 1 rioter who hit smoked
• 2 rioters who hit smoked
• 2 rioters who hit same target

notice the scenario i removed was the scenario where the Rioter or Soother hits a player who did not vote:

10 hours ago, Salmon Meerkat said:

to retype what oct said + add my own thoughts on possibilities:

• 2 soothers
• 1 soother & 1 rioter who hit smoked
• 2 rioters who hit smoked
• 2 rioters who hit same target
• 2 rioters who did not read the rules and tried to riot from no vote to a vote

>edit

there is a very fun quote w/ this ruling i include 4 ur edification only b/c i think it is very poetic

Spoiler

edit2: pls note this is from a previous iteration of tyrian i make no claims that i have received this image from the gms

but it is a very lovely line & it gives me joy

Edited January 6, 2022 by Salmon Meerkat

[Chartreuse Penguin]

Sorry I'd been out n about the entire day and only now have I gotten a chance to properly look at the thread. 

58 minutes ago, Salmon Meerkat said:

@Chartreuse Penguin

Please help me understand your dispute as I try to solidify my views/reads of the interactions of D1

Thanks Meerkat. All cards on the table, Hyena, here's what went down w me:

My initial vote on you was largely because I didn't like the fact that your first post was a huge hedgey reads list that had the potential to bent in any direction to assist in any future elim needs. I misread your reply to that as saying that you'd written that entire post before opening your GM PM, which I found to be very odd and hence left my vote where it was. Not a screaming red flag or anything, but like others have brought up, on D1 you sorta just gotta pounce on whatever little thing you can. After that things happened and I eventually ended up discussing your post with Meerkat in our PM, and they brought up the fact that you'd said you had only BEGUN writing that post before reading your GM PM. I found this to be even odder cuz like why even bring the fact up then? It basically means nothing when you'd yet to type up 90% of it, like you say. This seemed suspicious to me because elims often just add unnecessary facts and fluff-like details to their posts for add an element of the villager ethos, if you know what I mean. But at this point I was kinda rooting for a three-way tie cuz I thought it would be fun to see 1) randomised exes 2) how the vote manips and things would play out (if at all) and my vote sitting on your name in solitude didnt seem to be working forwards a tie so I started looking at other options (i.e. my temporary experimental vote on Cham, which I was hoping would lead me to comprehend other options). However, when Meerkat switched their vote to yours I dropped all my other trains of thought and replaced my vote back on you in hopes that one more person might add their vote to you as well, pushing your exe up as another tied candidate. Then I went to bed and later found out that no one did add a vote to you. A three-way tie did end up happening though!   Shouldve maybe gone for a four-way tie though, cuz vote manip dissolved the tie.

I will probably give my own thoughts on the vote shenanigans soon

That a nice summary?  

[Coral Swan]

Full disclosure I haven't really read the thread so far but I do plan to. Disappointed in the cycle result; two out of three candidates were low on my trust list and the third was my highest trust, and who dies? Lol. Some validation for my gut I suppose, rest in peace Crocodile.

7 hours ago, Emerald Falcon said:

This is probably a villager.

Ok Mr massive-iso-condemning-croc 

Tonight I plan to reread the last two pages of the day, the night, and make some PMs :D. We'll see how that all goes.

Praise the Ja!

[Salmon Meerkat]

3 minutes ago, Coral Swan said:

 

7 hours ago, Emerald Falcon said:

This is probably a villager.

Ok Mr massive-iso-condemning-croc 

 

7 hours ago, Emerald Falcon said:

~ Fine Coinshot kills by principle
Saffron Iguana
Turquoise Gorilla
Pearl Chameleon

Spoiler