Theory: Why Threnody is weird

[cometaryorbit]

TL;DR: The Physical and Cognitive Realms are very close together on Threnody; Threnody's Shades seem to be nearly mindless because they are pulled partly into the Physical Realm.

I noticed this interesting WOB:

Quote

Steeldancer

Would it be correct to say that the highstorms on Roshar have left the realms closer together than on other worlds? 

Brandon Sanderson

You could say [that] is true. I'd be comfortable with that idea. Though there are worlds where this goes even further than on Roshar.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 4, 2018)

This was kind of the last piece to complete an idea I was developing about Threnody.

Threnody's Shades are Cognitive Shadows, but not very cognizant. Elsewhere, cognitive shadows either seem to retain full intelligence (Returned on Nalthis, Kelsier in Scadrial's Cognitive Realm) or lose it only very slowly through progressive damage and rebirths (Fused and Heralds on Roshar).

But Cognitive Shadows are repeatedly compared to spren in the Stormlight books, and we know that sapient spren need a Nahel bond to retain their intelligence in the Physical Realm.

And the Shade of Silence's grandmother seems to retain a bit more memory than the usual Shade... perhaps because of Connection to Silence? Not anything like as strong as a real bond, which is why she's still mostly a mindless Shade, but still...

So I'm thinking that Threnody's Shades are Cognitive Shadows pulled partly or mostly into the Physical Realm (not completely, I think, since they're not solid). If they could form a bond with a Physical person as strong as a Rosharan Nahel bond, they might be able to be cognizant.

And if Threnody's Cognitive Realm is kind of "squashed" into its Physical Realm, perhaps that is why people become Cognitive Shadows much more easily there. The Realms are probably also closer together at night, as Shades are more active/aggressive then.

--

Much more speculatively...

Corruption: Ambition + Odium

Shades are "contagious", and the Evil on Threnody is described as consuming souls. Perhaps this is a general Intent of magic on Threnody, deriving from bits of Ambition's Investiture tainted by Odium - the combination becoming something like an Intent of Corruption, hate constantly spreading, expanding, contaminating, consuming.

The Simple Rules

The Simple Rules may also be tied to these Shards. To spill blood is an act of violence, linked to Odium; fire is the keystone of human achievement, linked to Ambition. I am not sure about the "running at night" thing though...

Edited December 25, 2021 by cometaryorbit

[Eternal Khol]

Thats a good theory. I made a post with similar ideas about them being less aware due to being pulled into the physical realm. You should check it out

Brandon has also said(iirc) that Shades are the way they are because there isnt a Shard in residence

Edited December 25, 2021 by Eternal Khol

[cometaryorbit]

I fixed the original post, adding the WOB I'd meant to include.

14 hours ago, Eternal Khol said:

Thats a good theory. I made a post with similar ideas about them being less aware due to being pulled into the physical realm. You should check it out

Brandon has also said(iirc) that Shades are the way they are because there isnt a Shard in residence

OK, cool, thanks.

Hmm, I wonder if that 'no Shard in residence' issue means that more Investiture could fix the Shades' lack of awareness/intelligence in the Physical Realm?

[Honorless]

Let's not forget this interesting bit from the Rhythm of War Harmony's letters epigraphs

Quote

That said, the most worrying thing I discovered in this was the wound upon the Spiritual Realm where Ambition, Mercy, and Odium clashed—and Ambition was destroyed. The effects on the planet Threnody have been … disturbing.

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 12/24/2021 at 8:42 PM, cometaryorbit said:

TL;DR: The Physical and Cognitive Realms are very close together on Threnody; Threnody's Shades seem to be nearly mindless because they are pulled partly into the Physical Realm.

I've thought about this before but never ran across that WoB, nice find! I think it's very plausible. If Threnody is Invested so heavily from the fight that people can just... become Cognitive Shadows all the time, it's probably Invested enough that the Realms are very close.

On 12/24/2021 at 8:42 PM, cometaryorbit said:

And the Shade of Silence's grandmother seems to retain a bit more memory than the usual Shade... perhaps because of Connection to Silence? Not anything like as strong as a real bond, which is why she's still mostly a mindless Shade, but still...

Ooooooh nice catch, I assumed it was just due to being more recent but that's very plausible imo.

On 12/24/2021 at 8:42 PM, cometaryorbit said:

since they're not solid

Interestingly, while they aren't fully solid, they actually partially are (moreso than Syl who can barely lift a leaf, anyway):

Quote

Its spectral hands were upon her, the icy cold of its fingers gripping her arm below the elbow. She could feel it. Shade fingers had substance; they could grab you, hold you back. Only silver warded them away. Only with silver could you fight.

 

On 12/24/2021 at 8:42 PM, cometaryorbit said:

The Simple Rules

The Simple Rules may also be tied to these Shards. To spill blood is an act of violence, linked to Odium; fire is the keystone of human achievement, linked to Ambition. I am not sure about the "running at night" thing though...

With how they change in appearance (white with green eyes to black with red eyes, iirc?), I've wondered whether perhaps shades are made of two kinds of Investiture (Mercy and Ambition? Ambition and Odium?), but they aren't truly harmonized, and so when certain actions are taken that align much more with one Intent than the other, it sort of temporarily shifts the internal balance of control in favor of that one, and with as mindless as they are, if one of those Intents is violent...

[cometaryorbit]

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Interestingly, while they aren't fully solid, they actually partially are

True. They're more so than a "normal" spren which is visible but immaterial. I just meant that they are not 100% solid in the Physical like the spren destroyed by Ishar's experiments in RoW, or spren manifested as Shardblades, Shardplate, or Soulcasters.

[cometaryorbit]

16 hours ago, Honorless said:

Let's not forget this interesting bit from the Rhythm of War Harmony's letters epigraphs

 

Hmm. A Shardblade 'cuts the Spiritual' from a person, apparently disconnecting their Physical self from their soul - the limb remains Physically attached but is unusable and gray (similar to an object or Lifeless whose color has been used for Awakening).

So maybe a "wound upon the Spiritual Realm" on a planetary scale is something similar, or like Hemalurgy - ripping away a part of the Spiritual Aspect?

Maybe it's not just that Threnody's Cognitive is too close to its Physical, but also too disconnected from its Spiritual?

[Morningtide]

I noticed an interesting and possibly completely unrelated thing today while browsing the coppermind. The ancient enemies of Jaddeth (from Elantris) are said to be the Svrakiss. They are described as half-ghost and half demon. My first thought on reading this was that Svrakiss sounded like shades. Then I found this topic.

On 12/28/2021 at 2:08 PM, cometaryorbit said:

Maybe it's not just that Threnody's Cognitive is too close to its Physical, but also too disconnected from its Spiritual?

Further down on the page, it says that the Svrakiss are believed (by Shu-Dereth) to be the souls of men barred from entering heaven. If Threnody's Cognitive and Physical realms are disconnected from the Spiritual, it could have resulted in the Shades. 

Like I said, it could be completely unrelated, but it's possible that there is a connection (or at least the Svrakiss were Brandon's original idea for Shades)

[MarShadow]

On 12/28/2021 at 1:08 PM, cometaryorbit said:

So maybe a "wound upon the Spiritual Realm" on a planetary scale is something similar, or like Hemalurgy - ripping away a part of the Spiritual Aspect?

This "wound upon the Spiritual Realm" business caught my eye. Maybe this wound on the Spiritual Realm is what actually pushes residents of the Cognitive Realm, (I.e., Cognitive Shadows, and whatever splinters there are remaining of Odium and Ambition).

Something that stood out to me in this line of thought is that the reason Threnody has no way to travel there specifically deals with the death of a Shard nearby--and this reinforces the idea that the Cognitive and Physical realms are overlapping here, and the wound is the cause.

 

Quote

 

Questioner

The way to travel...?

Brandon Sanderson

The way to travel on there has specifically to do with the fact that a Shard was killed nearby.

 

OP's original theory is further validated in the following line. 

Quote

 

Questioner

So, Sel: Investiture has been pushed into the Cognitive Realm. Threnody: Has it seen something similar?

Brandon Sanderson

It has not seen... Okay. Yes, something similar. It would count. Something similar, yes.

Questioner

If that's the case, what would happen if you were to push Investiture into the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

It generally manifests either as a solid, liquid, or gas

Questioner

I thought about that. I was like, "We've seen that," but it seemed like a concentrated form. What if you did for like a whole Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

That would probably have disastrous effects. 

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)  Source: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402/#e13327

 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by MarShadow

[JustQuestin2004]

This makes me think, what does a wound do? It bleeds.

Cognitive Shadows can only form, as far as we know, when someone either has held a immense amount of Investiture or is Connected to something with an Immense amount of Investiture.

But what if your Cognitive Aspect were to be constantly be bombarded with Investiture, what would happen?

Here's my idea: The 'SR Wound' is bleeding Investiture, which is causing the Realms to become much closer together and is what is fueling the existence of the Shades and allowing them such freedom of action in the Physical Realm despite being, you know, Cognitive Shadows.

This would also explain where the Investiture to make more Shades comes from.

What do you think?

[cometaryorbit]

Huh, that's definitely possible. I was thinking 'Spiritual wound' being like a Shardblade-killed limb (with the extra Investiture being chunks of Odium-corrupted Ambition, and the wound causing the Cognitive Shadows to be non-cognizant) but yeah, the extra Investiture could totally be the wound bleeding it in from the Spiritual.

[JustQuestin2004]

Maybe the 'theme' that Investiture on Threnody is influenced by is 'Post-Mortem' stuff? Like metal on Scadrial?

So even if Thenody was settled by an actual Shard there would still be Shades, just not like the ones we've seen so far.

Edit: I was thinking about how the SR is a place made of 'Infinite Investiture' like how a Perpendicularity can fuel Surges and fill Polestones with Light.

My theory is that just on a bigger and more subtle way.

 

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by JustQuestin2004

[mip67]

On 12/24/2021 at 6:42 PM, cometaryorbit said:

The Simple Rules may also be tied to these Shards. To spill blood is an act of violence, linked to Odium; fire is the keystone of human achievement, linked to Ambition. I am not sure about the "running at night" thing though...

 

On 12/27/2021 at 6:52 AM, Honorless said:

Let's not forget this interesting bit from the Rhythm of War Harmony's letters epigraphs

Quote

That said, the most worrying thing I discovered in this was the wound upon the Spiritual Realm where Ambition, Mercy, and Odium clashed—and Ambition was destroyed. The effects on the planet Threnody have been … disturbing.

 

So this is a pretty massive stretch, but what if running at night is linked to Mercy?

[Voidmaker]

19 hours ago, mip67 said:

So this is a pretty massive stretch, but what if running at night is linked to Mercy?

Fleeing is associated with running, and fleeing could be considered mercy (sparing both sides from conflict/wounds). It could work, and certainly fits the trend: Violence is a TYPE of hatred (Odium), the creation of fire is a TYPE of Ambition, and running away could be a TYPE of Mercy. It fits loosely, but it might not be as important as we think. I've got no comments on the rest of the thread, the theorizing is pretty solid.

[Koloss17]

You know, I wish I could add to this theory in some way, but it’s just so good.

Props to you, @cometaryorbit. Just a fantastic theory that I 100% buy.

[cometaryorbit]

Thank you!!!

[Isilel]

Some great ideas here, but I just wanted to point out that Odium's spren and Unmade seem to retain their sapience in the Physical without Nahel bonds. The 3 great spren of Roshar do too, though their intelligence increases when bonded. The situation with Seons and Skaze is similar, IIRC. 

[Leuthie]

I'm convinced that the "disturbing" effect of the "wound upon the Spiritual Realm" is that souls can't depart to the Beyond. They're stuck in the Cognitive Realm with a need to go somewhere. Normally, they would go into the Beyond. Since they can't, the need builds and results in the collection of Investiture to become Cognitive Shadows that eventually bleed into the Physical, which is somewhere.

[Treamayne]

On 12/28/2021 at 4:08 PM, cometaryorbit said:

Hmm. A Shardblade 'cuts the Spiritual' from a person, apparently disconnecting their Physical self from their soul - the limb remains Physically attached but is unusable and gray (similar to an object or Lifeless whose color has been used for Awakening).

Note that on Threnody, a similar (but amplified) effect is seen: (SfSitFoH - Ending)

Spoiler

William Ann’s left side, where she’d first touched the shade, was blackened. Her face wasn’t too bad, but her hand was a withered skeleton.

. . .

The leg wasn’t as bad as Silence had feared. A few of the toes would be lost, but the foot itself was hale enough. The entire left side of William Ann’s body was blackened, as if burned. That would fade, with time, to grey.

So, the withering is amplified damage (maybe both Congnitive and Spiritweb) and damage that isn't healed becomes gray and unusable (like a Shardblade wound).

On 5/11/2023 at 1:59 PM, mip67 said:

So this is a pretty massive stretch, but what if running at night is linked to Mercy?

I was thinking along similar lines, but rather than just Mercy - I think all three simple rules are tainted by whatever portion Odium lost:

• The shades direct violence at a display of Mercy (fleeing - moving fast)
• The Shades direct violence against kindling fire (not the fire itself, but the act of making the fire - which may be tied to Ambition as previously stated)
• The Shades direct violence at spilled blood (straight Odium)

Moreover, I've long thought that the Evil is an Splinter formed from the combined bits of Odium, Mercy and (mostly) Ambition lost in the fight there. (Coppermind extract):

Spoiler

 While a Shard's power is never truly separated from itself, as it is all connected through the Spiritual Realm, Splinters represent power that has been released or removed by a Shard. Splinters tend to not have much in the way of a Physical aspect.
As a chunk of Investiture they tend to be more rooted in the Cognitive and Spiritual Realms. While many Splinters are composed of the Investiture of a single Shard, in the case of some Splinters they may actually be composed of the Investiture of two or more Shards. One distinguishing factor of a Splinter is that it may often have an intent of its own, separate from that of its parent Shard, although it may be thematically related. Splinters are often sentient and have an associated personality, although that personality may be destroyed or its body tortured. However, they do not necessarily need a personality to be considered a Splinter.