Elsecaller_17.5

Was anyone ready for the King T bombshell? ROW SPOILERS

103 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Argel said:

Also, anyone else think Renarin only foresaw Seth killing Mr. T and that's what the "sorry" was for? Not sure he saw the ascension.

I think he definitely saw the death of Taravangian and I think he glimpsed more.

I don't know if he knows Taravangian ascended, I think he knows more, but maybe doesn't know what he knows - his visions are not linear, they are fragmented and sometimes symbolical. He may realise what happened later. Hopefully not too late.

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On 11/19/2020 at 8:47 AM, Subvisual Haze said:

Yeah, it occurs to me that I may have assumed too much benevolence guiding Cultivation's actions.  Just the "Earth Mother" vibe made me assume good intentions.  Instead Taravangian might well have been her perfect pawn because he mirrors her ruthless utilitarian mindsight.

Well, you can say that she’s been busy planting seeds, and now it’s time for the harvest!

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Quick thought: Rayse didn't want to pick up any more Shards for fear of changing his Intent. It turns out his Intent wasn't exactly right for him and what he wanted to do. The Shard knew it.

We find out that the Rhythm of War is the interplay between Honor and Odium. Hate and Oaths playing off each other toward stalemate and infinite escalation. Mr. T knows this interplay.

What if TOdium decides that picking up the remnants of Honor are exactly what needs to happen? Odium was looking for a champion in Dalinar and Kaladin (maybe others). What if TOdium sees the flaw in this and makes it his goal to reform Honor and pick it up for himself?

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I was absolutely blindsided by this, well done Brandon. I am also absolutely terrified. However, if I stop and consider what's in the text, I have to ask: What makes us so sure Taravangian is an evil genius who will wreak havoc as Odium?

I am well aware of what he has done so far but his actions - at least that is what he has provided in terms of justification - were inspired by the - to him - fact that he was fighting an unwinnable battle. This is not the case anymore. The fear of loss restricts him no more so shouldn't he, at least theoretically, be able to act less evil?

Also, why are we so sure Dalinar is screwed? After all, Odium's champion has to go and fight willingly, so it's not like T can simply compell Gavinor or Adolin into fighting for him just like that. I'm not saying it's impossible, but 10 days is not a lot to turn someone completely.

Sadly, I feel these are merely token excuses so I do not have to acknowledge that I am batshit afraid of Taravangian with infinite power and futuresight all the time. After all, we have been made well aware how insanely sociopathic he acts on his extremely intelligent days.

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On 11/22/2020 at 7:02 AM, WhiteLeeopard said:

As soon as it happened I thought that they should begin looking into how to break their word in 10 days time. Whether that would harm the spren of Honor, or they could simply stop this by killing Dalinar, perhaps with Nightblood.

I've always been very given to drastic measures, but I truly think its better for Dalinar, Roshar and the Cosmere to destroy Dalinar than to let him fall into T's hands. Maybe when Dalinar dies during the duel Szeth could be waiting in Shadesmar to destroy him completely with NB before T can capture him. But we all know that is most likely not going to happen.

Right now Cultivation seems to have set up T to become Odium and somehow Dalinar to become Honor. I would much prefer to see Dalinar take both Shards and become War. Odium seems to be a very unstable Shard (all are unstable, but Odium seems extra dangerous with no equilibrium whatsover). War is not a lovely Shard, but there is already constant war on Roshar anyway. 

 

agreed honor will return as dalinar

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My first thought when I read this, was that both Taravangian and Cultivation were, more or less, good guys, and this was good news. But reading all of this reminds me, we don't actually know much about what Cultivation is doing. She isn't Mother Nature or Mother Earth. She is a Dragon. 

Cultivation is more of a puppet master than I realized. I have wondered how much Cultivation and Odium worked together, or were aligned. 

 

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Here’s my question: will Todium have compassion days and intelligent days? He ascended on a compassion day but seemed smart immediately afterward so I’d guess it’s over, he’s always the same now.  

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12 hours ago, SixthIdeal said:

Here’s my question: will Todium have compassion days and intelligent days? He ascended on a compassion day but seemed smart immediately afterward so I’d guess it’s over, he’s always the same now.  

His Boon and Curse are likely gone. Or at least not really relevant anymore. 

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First of all, I did not see that coming. Second of all, Taravangian is a genius. He figured out how to alter Hoid's memories stored in the Breaths fairly easily. He's used to playing the puppet master and now he has a lot more power. He has no qualms killing a few for the good of many. I am terrified of the consequences of this action. Taravangian, in some ways, may be more dangerous than Rayse.

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On 11/24/2020 at 4:19 PM, TiaOmi said:

I think he definitely saw the death of Taravangian and I think he glimpsed more.

I don't know if he knows Taravangian ascended, I think he knows more, but maybe doesn't know what he knows - his visions are not linear, they are fragmented and sometimes symbolical. He may realise what happened later. Hopefully not too late.

I wondered about this too. I assumed the "I'm sorry" was his death at Szeth's hand - how could he foresee Raysodium's Death by Nightblood and Taravangian's subsequent Ascension with Odium's power of foretelling, where Raysodium himself couldn't see it because of Renarin's clouding his Futurevision? Seems circular if his derived foretelling could not only interfere with Odium's, but also be more accurate.

Oh, and another excellent way to deliver the blindsided punch was when it happened. I had already thought that Odium could well "go down" in SA 1-5, and that Cultivation's manipulation of Taravangian would be key to that, with Weepy Taravangian being the real "hero" (the other possibility being Moash pulling a Gollum, or as an assist)...

But therefore assumed some kind of climactic moment in Book 5, you know? Not just a few paragraphs at the end of a chapter that didn't even begin with Taravangian's POV - it began with Navani final-killing Raboniel in Urithiru and labeling her body that of "a hero". And was sandwiched in between what otherwise would have been REALLY HUGE SCENES (and still were) in Kaladin leveling up and Dalinar confronting Tezim/Ishar 

So in the middle of that was a kind of public service announcement. "Hey guys, while all that's going on, somewhere in a corner of Roshar near the Azish/Temul border, Rayse got snuffed and Odium, Inc. is under new management. And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming!"

Wait... Wh... What?

Edited by robardin
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On 11/18/2020 at 11:29 AM, Drol said:

Taravangianium, perhaps? Bit of a mouthful if you ask me:P

I have always been a fan of Odiumium, or OdIUM

On 11/18/2020 at 4:06 PM, Subvisual Haze said:

I'm glad we placed the most dangerous shard into the hands of an utterly amoral genius.  What could possibly go wrong.

This is going to be fun.

On 11/18/2020 at 11:10 PM, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I mean this is actually what Brandon told us would happen. Vessel destroyed but shard unharmed 

Well, not unharmed, that had to do something, whether or not it was a significant amount of damage is to be determined.

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On 11/25/2020 at 1:52 PM, Leuthie said:

Quick thought: Rayse didn't want to pick up any more Shards for fear of changing his Intent. It turns out his Intent wasn't exactly right for him and what he wanted to do. The Shard knew it.

We find out that the Rhythm of War is the interplay between Honor and Odium. Hate and Oaths playing off each other toward stalemate and infinite escalation. Mr. T knows this interplay.

What if TOdium decides that picking up the remnants of Honor are exactly what needs to happen? Odium was looking for a champion in Dalinar and Kaladin (maybe others). What if TOdium sees the flaw in this and makes it his goal to reform Honor and pick it up for himself?

I feel like this has a decent chance of happening. Taravangian doesn't seem like he'd have Rayse's same hangups about picking up shards. If he thought adding Honor's intent into the mix would help him reign in the Odium side, I think he'd go for it.

 

Edit: Add in the fact that as the new Odium, he'd Rayse's memories about the splintering method - maybe giving him some insight into reversing it to rebuild Honor?

Edited by Praeceptor23
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On 12/4/2020 at 9:14 AM, robardin said:

 So in the middle of that was a kind of public service announcement. "Hey guys, while all that's going on, somewhere in a corner of Roshar near the Azish/Temul border, Rayse got snuffed and Odium, Inc. is under new management. And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming!"

Wait... Wh... What?

Lol! I LOVE how you put that. It really did come out of nowhere. I mean, there was foreshadowing, but still completely unexpected when it happened! And was followed by another awesome level up (not technically, but it feels that way) casually tossed into a message in chapter 115.

The best part is all the characters not reacting to those events at all, giving us total whiplash.

Oh, everything’s grea- T is Odium?! Kell actually is Thaidakar?! Great... so that’s two out of three MC heroes suddenly facing really dangerous opponents... and they have no clue!! The Cosmere is so storming rusted...

At least Kal’s foil seems to have gotten weaker. That’s good, right? Right?

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
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17 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Lol! I LOVE how you put that. It really did come out of nowhere. I mean, it was foreshadowing, but still completely unexpected when it happened! And was followed by another awesome level up (not technically, but it feels that way) casually tossed into a message in chapter 115.

The best part is all the characters not reacting to those events at all, giving us total whiplash.

Oh, everything’s grea- T is Odium?! Kell actually is Thaidakar?! Great... so that’s two out of three MC heroes suddenly facing really dangerous opponents... and they have no clue!! The Cosmere is so storming rusted...

At least Kal’s foil seems to have gotten weaker. That’s good, right? Right?

Yeah, I was so stunned I immediately flipped back and re-read the last few pages again, starting from Odium arriving and accusing Taravangian of betraying him.

Then I noticed the simple sentence "And Ascended to godhood, becoming Odium." was at the very bottom of the page, but maybe not the chapter. So I flipped to the next page to see if there was more to this (there wasn't), half expecting Brandon to break the fourth wall.

Yes, you read that right. Taravangian segued from being murdered by Szeth to wielding Nightblood to kill Rayse as the Vessel and Ascending in his place to become Odium.

So many RAFOs just got FO'ed in one page. And so many more have now been spawned.

Heh heh heh. I love my job.

And I just realized, Taravangian has thought about Hoid before Ascending - what did he glean from Rayse's memories as the shard Odium, and what more did he add from rummaging and editing directly in Hoid's Breath-store of memories?

But who is the wanderer, the wild piece, the one who makes no sense? I glimpse at his implications, and the world opens to me.

(--From the Diagram, West Wall Psalm of Wonders: Paragraph 8)

Edited by robardin
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On 11/19/2020 at 6:10 AM, robardin said:

What is telling is that Rayse-Odium said more than once, "if you have an agreement with me, I will keep it in spirit and not only in word" - was that just Rayse speaking (how he as a Vessel would operate), or Odium (the binding nature of the Shard)? Taravangian was certainly looking immediately for loopholes...!

Well, it might have to do that Vessels aren't immediately taken by a Shard's intent, so he might have some wiggle room for the time being.

 

Also, this reveal made my jaw drop. I expect Rayse to be wounded, making him unstable in the next book, not dead. When Taravangian took up the Shard and said, "I will save everyone" I was wanting to hug my pillow and start rocking back and forth in fear, that moment was CREEPY. Words that might be reassuring from one person is terrifying from his mouth, with that power. And boy, I am not sure if Cultivation knows what she just made. I was already impressed with how the ending was going, and to pull that... Wow. Give me SA5, Sanderson, I need it!

Also, who predicted Kell was in the Ghostbloods? That person just got the best, "I KNEW IT" moment of all time.

Edited by Aspiring Writer
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8 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Well, it might have to do that Vessels aren't immediately taken by a Shard's intent, so he might have some wiggle room for the time being.

 

Also, this reveal made my jaw drop. I expect Rayse to be wounded, making him unstable in the next book, not dead. When Taravangian took up the Shard and said, "I will save everyone" I was wanting to hug my pillow and start rocking back and forth in fear, that moment was CREEPY. Words that might be reassuring from one person is terrifying from his mouth, with that power. And boy, I am not sure if Cultivation knows what she just made. I was already impressed with how the ending was going, and to pull that... Wow. Give me SA5, Sanderson, I need it!

Also, who predicted Kell was in the Ghostbloods? That person just got the best, "I KNEW IT" moment of all time.

Me! Kind of, anyway.

I just didn’t expect Brandon to actually do it. He kept saying the series could be read as a stand-alone, which it technically CAN. I figured the GB leader would be someone LIKE Kelsier, because it felt like EXACTLY like something he would do. Turns out there was a good reason for that, lol.

I also thought it would be too big a Mistborn spoiler for Brandon to use him. I actually thought it was more likely to be Spook, as that isn’t nearly as big a spoiler, and Spook has been heavily influenced by Kelsier.

I have felt from WoR on that the GBs would be Kell’s if Brandon let him have them. So I wasn’t surprised Kelsier was Thaidakar; I was surprised that Brandon allowed him to be.

I do wonder at what point Brandon settled on Kelsier as Thaidakar. Did he know during WoK? He did by WoR. By that point he was also planning to expand Alloy into a full Era, which I think played a role in the decision. Because Thaidakar really couldn’t be Kelsier without Kelsier’s survival being revealed within the pages of Mistborn.

I think Brandon wanted Kelsier as Thaidakar, but couldn’t use him until Era 2 became a thing.   I suspect Spook may have been intended originally (due to Kell being unusable). Some evidence of this is that Era 2 and 3’s timeline position changed drastically once Brandon decided to make Alloy a full Era.

Another thing I’m pretty sure changed is when the Thaidakar reveal was dropped (I suspect it was initially planned for book 5) and whether or not Thaidakar would appear in any way during SA’s first half. Initially it was no, because Kell can’t appear there until he does in Mistborn. The original plan had him first appear again in what is now Era 3, which will be written between SA halves. Now it’s probably yes, which is why Brandon has said TLM HAS to be released before SA 5.

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While I agree that TOdium has the potential to be extremely scary, I feel like people here are a bit quick to draw conclusions.

Taravangian's goal has always been to save as many people as he could - he is just utterly ruthless in doing so. He saw Odium's victory as inevitable, and did what he could to save as many people in that inevitability. His goal was to save the whole world, but he settled for Kharbaranth - because it was better than no one at all.

Similarly, now from Taravangian's PoV we have a trustworthy assessment of what Odium, the Shard, actually is. And it's not just hate. It's also not just passion. It's all emotion, but with a focus on hate for some unclear reason. Still, that is more varied, more balanced, than many people previously thought. An issue that I suspect the Shard of Odium naturally has, is that the potential Vessels it will be compatible with tend to be emotional, rather than rational, people, who are as a consequence not very adept at acting on reason.

Taravangian, however, is adept at that. He operates on logic to a degree that is scary. This will naturally balance out with the Shard and yes, on the long term that will cause conflict. But it takes time before the Shard's Intent overtakes the Vessel - remember that Ruin was able to create a planet together with Preservation, and Harmony, now handicapped by an inability to act, could reshape a planet.

I believe that Taravangian's goal will be to save as many people as he can, and he will try to bear the burden himself. He now has the option to engineer peace between humans and singers - the only reason he would not go for that, would be because he believes they cannot live together. Does he believe that? He very well could. In which case I have no idea what will happen. But if he believes he has the power to engineer peace, he will do so. At least, so long as he can without contradicting his Intent.

I also believe he will start to look outward - from his PoVs after taking up the Shard, it seems he considers at least some of the other Shards a danger to the Cosmere, which he by his nature as a person cannot accept - as many people as possible need to be saved, by any means available. And I indeed would not be surprised if he starts picking up other Shards with the goal of balancing his Intent to align with his plans as a Vessel better.

I'm not sure if Taravangian taking up the Shard is a good or a bad thing. It is definitely very scary, but I could certainly imagine it to be to the benefit of the majority.

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I was unfortunately spoiled on this plot point by the coppermind wiki. When I read the Sazed epigraphs that named the new Shards, I went to the vessel list on coppermind to see if they had been mentioned before. I happened to see next to Odium that Taravangian was the vessel. So that was pretty disappointing for me, that scene would have been a lot more impactful if I didn't know it was coming. Kind of frustrating that the wiki puts a massive spoiler like that on an otherwise innocuous page...

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We know that becoming a vessel will expand the intelligence of the vessel, but if the T at that moment is far dumber than the Rayse before either had the Shard, would TOdium be smarter than the T but still dumber than ROdium? It seems like a lot of people are assuming he's still genius T, but maybe this just makes him a smarter dumb T where he is still emotional, sympathetic and not as ruthless at least until the Shards power has more effect on him. 

On 12/9/2020 at 7:21 PM, Aspiring Writer said:

Also, who predicted Kell was in the Ghostbloods? That person just got the best, "I KNEW IT" moment of all time.

While i didn't predict it, i did get it kinda spoiled. I was trying to check the spelling of Thaidakar and google suggested "stormlight archive thakdakar is kelsier" so I didn't know if that was true or just a common theory, but it was in the back of my mind as i read the latter RoW.

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The issue is that Taravangian is a narcissist with a massive ego. Even on his more emotional and compassionate days he believes that only HE can save everyone, only HE can do what's right and necessary, and if HE can't do it then no one can. Combine that with his intellect and planning, he is a very terrifying being. He could easily stop this war, sit down with the other monarchs and figure out a peace accord which might not be what everyone wants but most on both sides would find as acceptable. But he thinks that HE needs to be the hero and that only HE can do what's best for Roshar

Edited by StanLemon
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5 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

The issue is that Taravangian is a narcissist with a massive ego. Even on his more emotional and compassionate days he believes that only HE can save everyone, only HE can do what's right and necessary, and if HE can't do it then no one can. Combine that with his intellect and planning, he is a very terrifying being. He could easily stop this war, sit down with the other monarchs and figure out a peace accord which might not be what everyone wants but most on both sides would find as acceptable. But he thinks that HE needs to be the hero and that only HE can do what's best for Roshar

T is not a narcissist! Kelsier probably is, if you want a character to compare him to. I went through the whole NPD analysis on a different board. 

Taravangian has a Messianic Complex; ie. Delusions of Grandeur (though I would not say he is delusional, just wrong). It should be noted that there is some slight resemblance to his smart/emotional days and some expressions of Bipolar disorder. Bipolar can manifest with Grandiose Delusions, so it’s an interesting connection.
 

Taravangian does not have Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Please stop misdiagnosing him. A cursory look through the diagnostic criteria makes it very clear that he does not have this disorder.

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3 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

T is not a narcissist! Kelsier probably is, if you want a character to compare him to. I went through the whole NPD analysis on a different board. 

Taravangian has a Messianic Complex; ie. Delusions of Grandeur (though I would not say he is delusional, just wrong). It should be noted that there is some slight resemblance to his smart/emotional days and some expressions of Bipolar disorder. Bipolar can manifest with Grandiose Delusions, so it’s an interesting connection.
 

Taravangian does not have Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Please stop misdiagnosing him. A cursory look through the diagnostic criteria makes it very clear that he does not have this disorder.

Litterally the only thing about NPD he doesn't check off is lack of empathy. And even then that is only half the time when his curse fills him with compassion. Delusions of Grandeur is often associated with narcissism.

Yes Kell is a Narcissist too, but he has empathy as well. That's because disorders are often a spectrum. Taravangian just jumps around on that spectrum because of Cultivation 

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Just now, StanLemon said:

Litterally the only thing about NPD he doesn't check off is lack of empathy. And even then that is only half the time when his curse fills him with compassion. Delusions of Grandeur is often associated with narcissism.

Yes Kell is a Narcissist too, but he has empathy as well. That's because disorders are often a spectrum. Taravangian just jumps around on that spectrum because of Cultivation 

Narcissism requires certain behaviors, and those behaviors cannot be caused by outside sources, which eliminates any behaviors caused by his bane/boon.

More to the point: “NPD is characterized by the presence of both grandiosity and attention seeking.” Taravangian does NOT engage in these behaviors, which means he’s not a narcissist. And a narcissist would NEVER allow other people to decide if he was capable of ruling his nation or not. A narcissist could never honestly say that he hopes to be proven wrong.

 

  • A grandiose sense of self-importance - this he has

  • A preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love - no, he doesn’t have these.

    A belief that he or she is special and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people or institutions - only when he is ‘smart’, which is caused by an external force and cannot apply

  • A need for excessive admiration - no; he doesn’t care if he’s hated as long as he’s saved as many as he can

  • A sense of entitlement - no. He fully expects to be punished and recognizes that he should be.

  • Interpersonally exploitive behavior - arguable

  • A lack of empathy - again, only when ‘smart’ which is caused by Cultivation so irrelevant.

  • Envy of others or a belief that others are envious of him or her - no, he’s not. 

  • A demonstration of arrogant and haughty behaviors or attitudes - Yes.

    Add to this that he doesn’t seek attention, nor does he act in a grandiose manner, and he’s not a Narcissist. He’s just an ordinary man who is doing evil. And that’s far more terrifying.

    Here is the second scale:

     

    Identity - T is very clear on his identity. This does not apply

    Self-direction - He is very directed, even at his dullest. This does not apply

    Empathy - Cultivation was manipulating this and thus it cannot be accurately measured.

    Intimacy - T does not appear to have had difficulties growing and maintaining intimate relationships. This does not apply.

    I don’t get why people always feel the need to apply labels. Taravangian is a good man who has chosen to do evil. That’s the most terrifying thing he could possibly be. Why lessen that?

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2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Narcissism requires certain behaviors, and those behaviors cannot be caused by outside sources, which eliminates any behaviors caused by his bane/boon.

What are you talking about? Environmental factors are often taken into consideration when it comes to disorders. We can even take his "middling" intelligence days as an indication of what he's like without the Boon/Bane

Quote

More to the point: “NPD is characterized by the presence of both grandiosity and attention seeking.” Taravangian does NOT engage in these behaviors, which means he’s not a narcissist. And a narcissist would NEVER allow other people to decide if he was capable of ruling his nation or not. A narcissist could never honestly say that he hopes to be proven wrong.

Again, Narcissism is a spectrum and not every checkbox needs to be marked, just enough to establish patterns.

 Even then his behavior contradicts his words. Even when telling Dalinar he hopes to be proven wrong he clearly in no way believes he is wrong. 

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:
  • A preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love - no, he doesn’t have these.

He believes that his genius Diagram is the best and most successful possible solution, that nothing anyone else anyone does can compare.

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  • A belief that he or she is special and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people or institutions - only when he is ‘smart’, which is caused by an external force and cannot apply

Even when stupid he still believes he's special and unique and that he is beyond other people's understanding, that they need to believe in the smarter him.

Quote

A need for excessive admiration - no; he doesn’t care if he’s hated as long as he’s saved as many as he can

Possible, though I would argue that he does, that he wants people to acknowledge that he's save them. But that's another conversation

Quote

A sense of entitlement - no. He fully expects to be punished and recognizes that he should be.

He has a massive sense of entitlement. He believes that all of his actions are justified because he's doing it to save the world. He wants to get Dalinar to agree with him and in RoW he thinks that Szeth should listen to him even after the horrendous way that he manipulated him. He believes that he needs to be the one to save the world. Rather than explain to Dalinar how Nightblood could harm Odium he believed he needed to manipulate a whole situation.

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A lack of empathy - again, only when ‘smart’ which is caused by Cultivation so irrelevant.

Not just limited to his 'smart' days. Even on his 'middling' days which are probably the truest personality for him he's more than willing to bleed innocent people dry for the Death Rattles. Something that the Diagram itself says won't do much good but he does it anyway on the small chance that they will give useful information. Even on his 'stupid' days he simply feels guilt but doesn't truly think what he's doing was wrong and that it's important to believe in 'smart' Taravangian.

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Envy of others or a belief that others are envious of him or her - no, he’s not. 

 

Tell that to Dalinar. It's pretty clear that he has trouble with the fact that Dalinar doesn't fall in line and that he's able to bring so many people to his side without manipulating them

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:
  • I don’t get why people always feel the need to apply labels. Taravangian is a good man who has chosen to do evil. That’s the most terrifying thing he could possibly be. Why lessen that?

Taravangian is not a good man who has chosen to do evil. He's an evil man who thinks he's good. Fiction is littered with characters like him who do horrendous evil things because it's necessary. Technically The Lord Ruler is an example. He created a despotic empire to 'save' the world from Ruin. Taravangian is no better.

Edited by StanLemon
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