The Recreance

[Arcanist Lupus]

I couldn't find any topics devoted to discussing what we've learned / can infer about the Day of Recreance, so I thought I'd start one.Epigraphs for reference

"Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants’ adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest." Words of Radiance, Chapter 38, page 6

"That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named." Words of Radiance, Chapter 38, page 6

"This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine." Words of Radiance, Chapter 38, page 20

What I find most interesting is the effect that the Day of Recreance had on the spren. Can you imagine Kaladin deliberately choosing to kill Syl? (Yes, he did once already, but that was an accident.) The Radiants had to know what was going to happen to their spren. This wasn't just a fancy way for the Radiants to retire. There must have been a specific reason that keeping their oaths would be a problem. What could possibly be worth the death of their spren?Finally, which order didn't participate and went into hiding instead? What happened to them? Are their descendants one of the secret societies that we've seen so far? What do you think?

[Caidhe]

Its just a guess, but I think whichever order followed Talenel'Elin would be the 1 of 10 that did not join the recreance (since Taln was the one of 10 heralds that did not abandon the oathpact).  The wikis appear to say it would be the Stonewards, an order we know little or nothing about seeing that none of the viewpoint characters or interludes appear to have had one.

[kaladamSB]

I agree with Caidhe. I have always felt that the Radiants left their Shards after finding out the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, and by that reasoning, Talns order would have stayed loyal

[Seloun]

The problem I have with the theory about the orders finding out about the Heralds being the cause of the Recreance is how that alone really changes anything. Even if it turns out the Heralds are complete jerks, why does that make what they're doing any worse? To the point that two hundred of the most honorable individuals in the world would stop protecting people and kill their closest companions, apparently without any remorse (if we can trust Dalinar's vision at Feverstone).

 

My current two theories are:

 

1) The Radiants learned that the Parshendi are the actual owners of the planet and the humans are the aggressors. In particular, that Tanavast is the aggressor.

 

2) The spren were intentionally 'breaking' people to bond. We know that a person has to be broken to be able to bond, and we know that the spren in general seem to really like being bound (since it gives them additional capacity); it's short step to farming bonds.

[Cheese Ninja]

In the Feverstone Keep vision Dalinar saw Stonewards and Windrunners.

[Arcanist Lupus]

The problem I have with the theory about the orders finding out about the Heralds being the cause of the Recreance is how that alone really changes anything. Even if it turns out the Heralds are complete jerks, why does that make what they're doing any worse? To the point that two hundred of the most honorable individuals in the world would stop protecting people and kill their closest companions, apparently without any remorse (if we can trust Dalinar's vision at Feverstone).

 

My current two theories are:

 

1) The Radiants learned that the Parshendi are the actual owners of the planet and the humans are the aggressors. In particular, that Tanavast is the aggressor.

 

2) The spren were intentionally 'breaking' people to bond. We know that a person has to be broken to be able to bond, and we know that the spren in general seem to really like being bound (since it gives them additional capacity); it's short step to farming bonds.

 

1. I could see that, if the Letters hadn't pretty much confirmed that Odium is a terrible person.

 

2. I doubt that honorspren would do something like that.  It kind of is the opposite of "protecting".

 

 

I agree with Caidhe. I have always felt that the Radiants left their Shards after finding out the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, and by that reasoning, Talns order would have stayed loyal

 While it's possible that the Recreance is related to the Heralds' abandonment of the Oathpact, that can't be the only reason, because (as I said before), they're murdering their spren to do so.

Or to put it another way:

"Hey, I just learned that our founder lied to us!  I'm quitting!" is plausible.

"Hey, I just learned that our founder lied to us!  I'm quitting and murdering my friend!" is not.

[mossyfisk]

The question for me is, since "the fighting was particularly intense at the time", who was the fighting against? The Voidbringers were long since gone at this point, so they must have gotten involved in politics.

 

My guess for the Recreance would be some sort of Oath conflict (like when Kaladin swore to defend AND kill Elhokar), that made it impossible to keep both.

[Arcanist Lupus]

Unless there was some coflict with the first Oath, I don't see how something like that could affect all the Orders.

[Seloun]

1. I could see that, if the Letters hadn't pretty much confirmed that Odium is a terrible person.

 

2. I doubt that honorspren would do something like that.  It kind of is the opposite of "protecting".

 

Odium being a good or bad person isn't really the issue with the first - based on the epigraphs of WoR, the Parshendi called upon Odium because they thought they had no choice. Odium being a terrible person doesn't necessarily mean Tanavast's actions were always good.

 

For the second, it seems clear to me that the spren don't really define their characteristic, but are attracted to it. I don't think honorspren can actually interpret honor or have a sense of honor without a human bondmate. I actually think this is the point - I just don't see what else could every Windrunner break their oaths unless they felt they were somehow betrayed by their spren.

[Andrew C]

Unless there was some coflict with the first Oath, I don't see how something like that could affect all the Orders.

 

Is it just me that thinks this is exactly the sort of thing that Odium would seek to create?

 

If your goal is to crush Tavanast so completely that He could never recover, what better way than to turn Tavanast's greatest protectors into traitors, and make it so that the reason for their betrayal is Tavanast's own sense of honor?

[marianmi]

Copy from my other post, but here it makes more sense...

 

 

So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address.

 

-          From Words of Radiance, chapter 30, page 18

So Melishi wanted to destroy all parshendi, but during the night had a better idea: destroy their bonds to the spren. This has something to do with the Bondsmith abilities probably.

 

 

 

In short, if any presume Kazilah to be innocent, you must look at the facts and deny them in their entirety; to say that the Radiants were destitute of integrity for this execution of one of their own, one who had obviously fraternized with the unwholesome elements, indicates the most slothful of reasoning; for the enemy’s baleful influence demanded vigilance on all occasions, of war and of peace

 

-          From Words of Radiance, chapter 32, page 17 

 

Kazilah did not agree with this and eliberated the 12th legion of the parshmen. He was executed, because parshmen are an enemy even in peace.

 

 

 

Twenty-three cohorts followed behind, that came from the contributions of the King of Makabakam, for though the bond between man and spren was at times inexplicable, the ability for bonded spren to manifest in our world rather than their own grew stronger through the course of the oaths given.

 

-          From Words of Radiance, chapter 35, page 9

 

A war started between the radiants, and the King of Makabakam took one side, sending (23k?) soldiers.

 

 

 

Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced; namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants’ adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest

 

-          From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 6

 

As the windrunners were fighting, probably against the Makabaki (from twok recreance vision: "they should be fighting the devils on the front lines", where devils = dark skinned makabaki) - when a betrayal happens. also note from same vision: "they can't have gotten through our lines, not with the radiants fighting..." - the radiants fighting (as in among themselves)...

 

 

 

 

That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths.  The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named.

 

-          From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 6

 

 

 This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine

 

-          From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 20

 

so while the radiants were fighting, this act of great villainy happened, and was done by a secret society (amarams? ghostbloods?)

even if the radiants were fighting among themselves, they all felt betrayed, and some of them withdrew from this fight.

then,  about 2000 of them attacked the society and (almost) destroy it. then they dropped their blades and severed their bonds, except for the skybreakers.

 

so there were several betrayals, no doubt very well orchestrated. 

 

 

Anyway, that's my take on the Recreance.

 

Another take: maybe Kazilah did something to make impossible what Melishi intended for the Parshmen, and gave the Parshmen the possibility of fighting; the radiants were fighting Parshmen in some non-god form (devils), when the humans betrayed the spren - the humans, not the Radiants. The Radiants responded, even if this lead to the death of the spren.

 

One thing to note is that each order have very different oaths. So in order for all orders to do what they did, most probably oath #1, the common one, was broken.

 

 

Edited March 11, 2014 by marianmi

[Arcanist Lupus]

My problem with this theory is that I don't feel a schism or betrayal would have created a bond breaking conflict among every member of every (well, nine) orders. The only way to achieve that would be a unified decision to break their oaths. And that would also be a decision to murder their spren, so they'd need a really good reason to do so.

[wolverinehokie]

I personally always felt like the recreance happened because the KR were constantly called on to fight political battles similar to the wars Kalidin was fighting when he was first in Amaram's army like battles that served no purpose. I picture neither side being worthy of the KR so the KR decided to stop fighting. I even think it's possible the KR didn't realize what they were doing when they abandoned their shards and plate as in they didn't know they would be killing their spren. I have no evidence for this, this is just how I felt when I read the Dalinar vision in WoK.

[taveren]

it has to be something big to kill all those spren if its just we don't want to fight they could retire and stop fighting but no they intentionally broke the oaths right then and there. hard to say without more info

[Arcanist Lupus]

I don't think it's possible they didn't realize what they were doing. Kaladin can't be the only one who's ever broken his oaths and lost his spren; they would have documented cases of it happening. I could buy believing that the spren would be able to go back to the Cognitive Realm, and not realizing they'd be mindlessly trapped, but as soon as the first Radiants started to abandon their spren and the spren started screaming, the rest would realize what was happening, and stop.

Also, another reason I believe the breaking was intentional - All the Radiants broke their Oaths more or less in unison. If the problem was a conflict of oaths that arose naturally, the Radiants would have lost their powers more sporadically.

[Cayden]

I still think there has to be some sort of link between the banishment of intelligent spren. the variety which can cause the advanced parshendi forms and those that allow a human to surgebind.

 

I think it was a deliberate and orchestrated massacre in order to stop the next desolation, who knows perhaps Odium gave them visions in order to trick them into destroying the friendship between Spren and Mankind and then pulled his own spren back so that the former KR would believe it and so that the Heralds would believe that surgebinders were the key to the Desolations.

 

Even if it was merely a ploy to further weaken mankind, so that when the days before the Everstorm do come that Surgebinders are hunted and killed, so that the spren are hesitant to give aid and that he will have a surer chance of destroying everything.

 

Odium wants the hate and probably feeds on it. Making manking hate the surgebinders seems logical as does making the spren hate humans

[Talyra]

Is there some significance to the widespread anxiety Shin and Taravangian seem to have at the reappearance of the Radiants? We know that the appearance of the Heralds and KR is an omen for a Desolation, but could there be some kind of causal effect as well? Taravangian is specifially concerned about the exploration of the Nahel bond:

 

"One danger in deploying such a potent weapon will be the potential encouragement of those exploring the Nahel bond.  Care must be taken to avoid placing these subjects in situations of powerful stress unless you accept consequences of their potential Investiture.

-          From the Diagram, Floorboard 27: paragraph 6"

 

I suspect from this that the investiture itself may act as a trigger for something, perhaps an escalation of events to come. It could just be that the Radiants are unpredictable elements and throw off Taravangian's predictions, but it seems suspicious to me.

 

If that were the case - if widespread investiture were damaging or endangering the world somehow, then sacrificing the spren could definitely have a higher purpose.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Talyra

[EHyde]

This is pretty out there but I thought I'd at least bring it up -- is it possible that the recreance was actually initiated by the spren? That instead of a mass murder it was more of a suicide pact?

[Luke.spence]

This is pretty out there but I thought I'd at least bring it up -- is it possible that the recreance was actually initiated by the spren? That instead of a mass murder it was more of a suicide pact?

 

I kinda like this concept. Maybe due to various orders' oaths conflicting, the KR became involved in a partially political civil war and the only way the spren could stop it would be to convince their KR to kill them, thus taking the power of surges away from mankind.

 

The Skybreakers for some reason didn't like this idea.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Luke.spence

[Numb]

Wouldn't the Highspren then tell the other Spren that the radiants didn't murder their people? Seems like pretty important information to just not tell anyone.

[Moogle]

Given Nalan's insistence that Surgebinders bring the Desolation (I... somewhat trust him not to be utterly insane, he's just over the top in his actions), and that after the Recreance, there was no Desolation for 4500 years, I'm fairly confident that the Radiants realized their very existence was going to bring about the Desolation and didn't like it. So... they gave up their spren, despite the horrible cost to them and the spren. Given that this was them caring more about Destination than Journey, this naturally broke their bonds to their spren.

 

I imagine the Skybreakers were the "one in ten" that didn't give up the spren. They cared about their oaths far more than the other Orders, I think. And, of course, Nalan might have went back for his Honorblade so as to avoid giving up the Oathpact or something - I never quite believed he would be the type to break his oaths. Kalak says they were "supposed" to go back to the torture, but it doesn't sound like it was absolutely required as part of the Herald's oaths.

 

It could also be the Stonewards. Stone Shamanism is still alive and kicking, which hints at a connection.

 

"Subterfuge" makes me think of the Lightweavers, but we know that every liespren died from Pattern.

 

... unless Pattern learned to lie?

Edited March 11, 2014 by Moogle

[Luke.spence]

But how are surgebinding and the desolations connected? Why would Odium call off the hounds just because the KR left and betrayed their oaths? 

 

Also, would the Parshendi still have changed to stormform if surgebinding hadn't returned (assuming that the war against them was still pursued)? If so, then that would mean that surgebinding isn't connected to the desolations. Personally, I think the two are connected, I just can't figure out the connections.

[Shards of Mist]

Is there some significance to the widespread anxiety Shin and Taravangian seem to have at the reappearance of the Radiants?

Their anxiety is only significant because of what it means to each of them. Szeth believes he's Truthless. He warned others of the coming Desolation and they didn't believe him. Furthermore, they convinced him he was wrong in his beliefs. They named him Truthless, made him swear an Oath to do as he's bid and gave him to a trader. He's spent the last 6 years murdering people for his various masters. The appearance of a Radiant proves him right, and means the Oath he made was wrong. It would put all those murders on his shoulders, instead of just on the shoulders of his masters. That would terrify a man.

In the same light, it would terrify Taravangian to have Szeth learn he is not Truthless. He would likely kill the man, or men who bid him to commit such horrible acts. Taravangian is anxious because he may be looking at his death sitting across from him, which is why he needed to convince Szeth that Kaladin was not a Radiant.

[Quazar87]

The Herald Nale believes that Surgebinding will lead to Odium's return and the destruction of the world.  Yes, he's gone a bit crazy, but what if he was right?

Maybe the Radiants abandoned their oaths to give the world the last 4 millenia?

 

EDIT:  I see Moogle beat me to the punch.  I think that's good though, now we have 2 independent hunches toward the same thing.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Quazar87

[Moogle]

But how are surgebinding and the desolations connected? Why would Odium call off the hounds just because the KR left and betrayed their oaths?

 

I made a theory on it. Evidence is lacking... but consider this:

 

Why is there not a Desolation every year? Desolations happened every hundred years or so, if not longer. Odium might have to rebuild his forces, sure, but if everyone just remembers that the parshmen are evil and kills them all off, then Odium would be screwed. The fact that Odium lets humanity rebuild every time he attacks with the Desolation does not fit Odium's personality. Therefore, I think he's limited - he can only attack when humanity has sufficiently rebuilt its forces. If Surgebinders never reach a certain number, then Odium can't attack. Or he can only attack in proportion to the number of Surgebinders or something. If there's less Surgebinders, the Desolations become less scary.

 

It's speculative, and uncertain. We don't know enough. I think the theory might have some merit though.