Fullborn V.S. 5th Ideal Windrunners

[Wits instant noodles]

Who would win a Fullborn or a 5th ideal Windrunner. This has a lot of different angles we could take and i think it will be cool to explore!

Edited February 28, 2023 by Wits instant noodles

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Wits instant noodles said:

Who would win a Feruchemistry and Mistborn

We call them Fullborn.

And I'm probably going to have to go with the Windrunner, but it's going to be close.

They can fly higher than a fullborn can reach, and then escape away in case things go bad for them.

Fullborn, while ludicrously strong, can't go anywhere that Windrunners can't follow, and lack a way to instantly kill them.

[Wits instant noodles]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

We call them Fullborn.

sorry I just fixed it I knew there was a name but i was spacing on it.

[Immortal Platypus]

It will be close, but I think that windrunner wins, but there are a few things that could tip the scales, mainly time bubbles. I'm not going to vote yet because there is a lot that can be said. Windrunner wins I think, unless the Fullborn is really smart and the windrunner is really dumb.

[alder24]

Fullborn, no doubt. It's no use for a Windrunner to go everywhere he wants when as soon as he closes in, he is dead. Plate won't protect him from Fullborn, he can strike extremely hard and fast, smashing plate into pieces by a single punch. He can use fortune, zinc and electrum to know the future and predict Windrunner's moves. He can use time bubbles to gain every advantage he needs, and duralumin boosted emotional allomancy to paralyze a Windrunner once his plate gets destroyed. Fullborn doesn't even have to lift his feet from the ground, or shoot any coins, just stand and wait till Windrunner gets close and overwhelm him with speeds several times that of the speed of sound. Even Shardblade damages can be healed by a Fullborn. Even if somehow Windrunner was able to send Fullborn to space, or create a vacuum around him - Fullborn has all the breaths he needs in his metalmind, and can leech with chromium any lashing.

Sorry Roshar-guys but Windrunner stands no chance. Escaping the fighting area means losing the fight. There is no scenario in which Windrunner can later return and win a fight. I literally can't see a scenario in which Windrunner wins against a Fullborn.

[Immortal Platypus]

I didn't think about some of those but there are some counters. I'm afraid I don't have time to respond right now, but I'll be back.

[Wits instant noodles]

8 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said:

mainly time bubbles

I agree I think time bubbles and speed are things fairly unique to Scadrial and I think that might be the thing that would put the Fullborn on top if anything does.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Wits instant noodles

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

just stand and wait till Windrunner gets close and overwhelm him with speeds several times that of the speed of sound.

Marasi almost completely drained the bands of speed after only moving at slightly faster than sound for a few seconds.

9 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Even if somehow Windrunner was able to send Fullborn to space, or create a vacuum around him - Fullborn has all the breaths he needs in his metalmind

The Windspren can make a vacuum around him while the Windrunner themselves flew out of reach above him, without a way to get more cadmium, he will eventually suffocate.

[alder24]

Just now, Frustration said:

Marasi almost completely drained the bands of speed after only moving at slightly faster than sound for a few seconds.

And that's all Fullborn needs to kill Windrunner. Literally.

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

The Windspren can make a vacuum around him while the Windrunner themselves flew out of reach above him, without a way to get more cadmium, he will eventually suffocate.

And here again comes steel for rescue - he just moves out. Moreover I'm not sure if Windrunner can just do it without physical connection to Windsprens - Kaladin in both cases was among Windsprens, not drinking tea in the Tower.

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Marasi almost completely drained the bands of speed after only moving at slightly faster than sound for a few seconds.

That’s true, but moving that fast is completely unnecessary. Moving a tenth of that speed would be more than enough to blitz the Radiant, and taking diminishing returns into effect and allowing for much larger steel metalminds, such a speed could easily be maintained for quite a while.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

That’s true, but moving that fast is completely unnecessary. Moving a tenth of that speed would be more than enough to blitz the Radiant, and taking diminishing returns into effect and allowing for much larger steel metalminds, such a speed could easily be maintained for quite a while.

That is true and I completely agree. I was only saying that multiple times the speed of sound wasn't possible, for any useful amount of time.

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And here again comes steel for rescue - he just moves out. 

Windspren are faster.

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Moreover I'm not sure if Windrunner can just do it without physical connection to Windsprens - Kaladin in both cases was among Windsprens, not drinking tea in the Tower.

He split the storm at the end of RoW in a massive collum. Even if he did have to be inside (which I doubt) he can still do it.

[NameIess]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Windspren are faster.

Fullborn don’t need to breathe. They could easily last just as long without air as the Radiant could or longer. Compounding up a few hours of cadmium is easy, and F-gold will work just as well if they don’t have enough cadmium stored for some reason.

Edited February 28, 2023 by UnfortunatelyNamed

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Windspren are faster.

No.

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He split the storm at the end of RoW in a massive collum. Even if he did have to be inside (which I doubt) he can still do it.

Which he did by being inside of the storm and being surrounded by Windsprens. The way I see it is that Kaladin used Windspren to expand the range of his own surges, but he needed to be "with" them to use them this way, like in OB, he was on the very top of the wedge he created, having Windsprens by both of his sides.

[Frustration]

59 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No.

What limits do Spren have for speed?

Spren don't use energy so that's not a limit, the routinely go several hundred mph, so that's not it.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Which he did by being inside of the storm and being surrounded by Windsprens. The way I see it is that Kaladin used Windspren to expand the range of his own surges, but he needed to be "with" them to use them this way, like in OB, he was on the very top of the wedge he created, having Windsprens by both of his sides.

I was saying he can still create a vacuum, IF that is a requirement, and be outside of the fullborn's reach.

1 hour ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Fullborn don’t need to breathe. They could easily last just as long without air as the Radiant could or longer. Compounding up a few hours of cadmium is easy, and F-gold will work just as well if they don’t have enough cadmium stored for some reason.

Radiants holding stormlight don't want to breathe as that makes them lose stormlight, so they aren't losing any resources, but the Fullborn is forced to expend both gold and Cadmium, or a lot of gold, both to deal with the lack of oxygen, and the lack of pressure. So the Radiant loses nothing in the exchange, but weakens their opponent quite a bit.

[alder24]

45 minutes ago, Frustration said:

What limits do Spren have for speed?

Spren don't use energy so that's not a limit, the routinely go several hundred mph, so that's not it.

The way humans perceive them. While they can be attracted to the specific area with extreme speed, once they are here, they are limited by Physical Realm, as they are partially in it. They have limits. The fastest Windspren move was in WoR during Kal and Szeth fight, ahead of the Highstorm. Fullborn can go faster.

45 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I was saying he can still create a vacuum, IF that is a requirement, and be outside of the fullborn's reach.

And Fullborn just moves out of the vaccum like it wasn't even there take a heavy rock and throw it with such force and speed that Windrunner doesn't even have a time to react.

 

 

Here are new ways for Fullborn to win this fight. Use duralumin connection feruchemy, and possibly a bit of aluminum identity:

1. use connection between Fullborn and Windrunner to become best friends forever, use gold compounding to outlive him and win
2. use connection between Fullborn and Windrunner or his spren and instantly became his squire, gaining powers of Windrunner (which can be stored and compound in nicrosil) (WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/394/#e12917 )
3. by using 2 first to create connection between you and Windsprens (given to you as a Windrunner squire) strengthen connection to Windsprens so they would consider you as their Radiant and form a plate around you instead of the Radiant.
4. use the connection between Fullborn and Radiant's spren to extreme to fool the spren into believing you are his knight and thus becoming a Windrunner, or making connection strong enough to be able to summon this spren as a Shardblade (which is possible, based on this WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41/#e7235). 

Edited February 28, 2023 by alder24

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The way humans perceive them. While they can be attracted to the specific area with extreme speed, once they are here, they are limited by Physical Realm, as they are partially in it. They have limits. The fastest Windspren move was in WoR during Kal and Szeth fight, ahead of the Highstorm. Fullborn can go faster.

That's still around 400 mph, and I highly doubt that is their max speed.

I can't see a Windrunner not having windspren follow them as they fly until they at minimun reach the speed of sound, and even than I would find it weird.

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And Fullborn just moves out of the vaccum like it wasn't even there take a heavy rock and throw it with such force and speed that Windrunner doesn't even have a time to react.

Human reaction speed is around 0.25 seconds(without stormlight benefits), and in order to be outside of coin range from a flying individual the Windrunner would have to be at least 100 feet in the air.

 

That would require the rock to move at 1,440,000 mph, at a bare minimum.

That's not possible, not even close.

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

use connection between Fullborn and Windrunner to become best friends forever, use gold compounding to outlive him and win

That would let you form friendships faster, but it doesn't wipe their memory. They still know you have to die, so unless you really poured, outrageous amounts of Connection into it, and managed to hold it the entire time(Which you would not be able to do) that wouldn't work.

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

use connection between Fullborn and Windrunner or his spren and instantly became his squire, gaining powers of Windrunner (which can be stored and compound in nicrosil) (WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/394/#e12917)

Where are you going to get Stormlight from?

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

by using 2 first to create connection between you and Windsprens (given to you as a Windrunner squire) strengthen connection to Windsprens so they would consider you as their Radiant and form a plate around you instead of the Radiant.

You would need their Identity, so that won't work.

16 minutes ago, alder24 said:

use the connection between Fullborn and Radiant's spren to extreme to fool the spren into believing you are his knight and thus becoming a Windrunner, or making connection strong enough to be able to summon this spren as a Shardblade (which is possible, based on this WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41/#e7235). 

That requires you to be able to make Connections, not just form them faster.

[Immortal Platypus]

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

• use connection between Fullborn and Windrunner to become best friends forever, use gold compounding to outlive him and win

That would need atium compounding, not gold compounding. Plus I don't think they can manipulate connection, only store it.

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

• use connection between Fullborn and Windrunner or his spren and instantly became his squire, gaining powers of Windrunner (which can be stored and compound in nicrosil) (WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/394/#e12917)

that's connection manipulation, not storing which is something they can't do I believe. I think it's limited to Bondsmiths to change connection. That link didn't really work for me so i can't check it.

14 minutes ago, alder24 said:

• by using 2 first to create connection between you and Windsprens (given to you as a Windrunner squire) strengthen connection to Windsprens so they would consider you as their Radiant and form a plate around you instead of the Radiant.

see above

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

1. use the connection between Fullborn and Radiant's spren to extreme to fool the spren into believing you are his knight and thus becoming a Windrunner, or making connection strong enough to be able to summon this spren as a Shardblade (which is possible, based on this WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41/#e7235). 

see above. 

Anyway, where are you getting all this connection from anyway? How are you gaining a Connection to the windrunner?

[Trusk'our]

2 hours ago, Wits instant noodles said:

Who would win a Fullborn or a 5th ideal Windrunner. This has a lot of different angles we could take and i think it will be cool to explore!

A Fullborn with the strength of a normal Mistborn plus a Feruchemist? Still Fullborn, unless the 5th oath a Radiant swears gives them something truly powerful.

 I think the two most dangerous (at least to enemy Radiants) powers that a Fullborn has are Feruchemical steel and Allomantic chromium. A Fullborn can blitz them with incredible speed with Feruchemical steel, then drain them of Stormlight via Allomantic chromium, which also can prevent the summoning of the Radiant's Spren as a Shardblade (though only as long as touch is maintained). Plate might grant a resistance to chromium, but it's also fueled by Investiture, and so is likely to be affected just as easily.

I don't think that a Windrunner of the 5th oath would go down easily unless the Fullborn used Feruchemical steel and Allomantic chromium though, as Plate is really tough, and a Shardblade gives them a reach advantage.

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Here are new ways for Fullborn to win this fight. Use duralumin connection feruchemy, and possibly a bit of aluminum identity:

1. use connection between Fullborn and Windrunner to become best friends forever, use gold compounding to outlive him and win
2. use connection between Fullborn and Windrunner or his spren and instantly became his squire, gaining powers of Windrunner (which can be stored and compound in nicrosil) (WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/394/#e12917)
3. by using 2 first to create connection between you and Windsprens (given to you as a Windrunner squire) strengthen connection to Windsprens so they would consider you as their Radiant and form a plate around you instead of the Radiant.
4. use the connection between Fullborn and Radiant's spren to extreme to fool the spren into believing you are his knight and thus becoming a Windrunner, or making connection strong enough to be able to summon this spren as a Shardblade (which is possible, based on this WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41/#e7235). 

Okay, Feruchemical duralumin is clearly more dangerous than to Radiants than I had previously realized. I mean, the squire trick I had thought of, but I hadn't considered the blade-stealing trick. Though, the Spren's will is involved, so it likely would only work once by catching them off guard.

[Immortal Platypus]

7 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

A Fullborn with the strength of a normal Mistborn plus a Feruchemist? Still Fullborn, unless the 5th oath a Radiant swears gives them something truly powerful.

 

that's part of this whole thing. We don't know what 5th Ideal looks like. it might just have the Stormlight staying in them better, but I doubt it. It probably gives some major power boosts that we don't know. also, if we're using all these things, should we give windrunner squires? It's part of their toolkit to have more squires than the other Radiants after all.

[Wits instant noodles]

1 minute ago, Being of Cacophony said:

It's part of their toolkit to have more squires than the other Radiants after all.

but then at that point its a game of how many squires can you defeat and not who is more powerful, so no were talking about just the 5th Ideal windrunner here.

[Immortal Platypus]

it's part of their toolkit though. If we're banning those, can we ban the fullborn from having coins? And extra vials?

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That would let you form friendships faster, but it doesn't wipe their memory. They still know you have to die, so unless you really poured, outrageous amounts of Connection into it, and managed to hold it the entire time(Which you would not be able to do) that wouldn't work.

Would you kill your best friend just because?

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Where are you going to get Stormlight from?

From Radiant, smash his plate and steal his spheres.

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You would need their Identity, so that won't work.

Blank your own.

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That requires you to be able to make Connections, not just form them faster.

You have a connection to that spren the moment he meets you. Because storing connections makes people unaware of you, it means you have connections to even those who you never met before.

 

4 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said:

That would need atium compounding, not gold compounding. Plus I don't think they can manipulate connection, only store it.

Gold is enough, you just need to stay very healthy. You store or tap connections, this weakens or strengthens connection. If you can use it to make spren bond you, break into hemalurgic constructs (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/356/#e10524), you can use it this way as well. Tapping connections makes you become friends faster.

9 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said:

that's connection manipulation, not storing which is something they can't do I believe. I think it's limited to Bondsmiths to change connection. That link didn't really work for me so i can't check it.

WoBs proves it, link should work again, just bracket suddenly became part of it

10 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said:

see above

Windrunners have a natural connection to Windsprens, by becoming a Windrunner squire, you will get that connection naturally. I don't want a Fullborn to make new connections, I don't believe he can, he just strengthen those which already exist.

12 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said:

Anyway, where are you getting all this connection from anyway? How are you gaining a Connection to the windrunner?

By meeting him and fighting with him. Compound rest if you have to or use pre-stored connections.

 

4 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said:

that's part of this whole thing. We don't know what 5th Ideal looks like. 

We can extrapolate what we already know from books and WoBs. Just better and a bit stronger, able to manipulate pressure around him, and use Windsprens as an extension of his powers, but have to be among them.

5 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said:

should we give windrunner squires? It's part of their toolkit to have more squires than the other Radiants after all.

Well, Fullborn has nicrosil and he can make medallions and bring an army of Fullborns with him. Should we include them? No, 1 on 1 fight. Squires are people, not weapons or tools. Even with squires, Fullborn uses just compounded speed and strength, and kills Windrunner immediately, and now all his squires are powerless.

[Trusk'our]

2 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said:

Plus I don't think they can manipulate connection, only store it.

that's connection manipulation, not storing which is something they can't do I believe. I think it's limited to Bondsmiths to change connection. That link didn't really work for me so i can't check it.

Anyway, where are you getting all this connection from anyway? How are you gaining a Connection to the windrunner?

You can Feruchemically store the ability to form certain types of Connections, such as to people and places. It may not be possible to steal a Spren Bond this way as it requires Identity, but you certainly could use Feruchemical duralumin to become a Squire to a Radiant. 

Also, when you tap Connection, it "reaches out" to something else. You can't be "Connected" to nothing, so a Fullborn tapping Connection to people would likely be able to become a Squire that way, if I am correct.

Quote

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

Questioner

I know Hemalurgy [has to go to mix and match powers], would it be possible to use Feruchemy for Connection to hack into multiple Knights Radiant, kind of act as a Squire to more than one at the same time.

Brandon Sanderson

Great question! I think you could make this work. I think it would take a little bit of legwork, but I think what you're wanting to do could indeed work. More likely in that case though, you could probably be a Squire to multiple Orders. *Hesitantly* Yeah...I think that would work, but I don't think it's the easiest way to do what you want to do. I think there are easier ways.

Quote

Calamity Denver signing (Feb. 19, 2016)

Dirigible

Can you store different types of Connection at different times? Like can you store Connection to people versus location?

Brandon Sanderson

That is possible.

 

2 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said:

that's part of this whole thing. We don't know what 5th Ideal looks like. it might just have the Stormlight staying in them better, but I doubt it. It probably gives some major power boosts that we don't know.

That's not quite true. We do actually have some idea of a 5th oath Radiant, as Nale is one currently. I don't really see much extra going on with him, but still, he could simply not have chosen to use it yet.

Even with that in mind, I'd still bet the Fullborn would be victorious most of the time, due to their power set, unless we see something new when Kaladin finally takes the 5th oath (seriously, I can't wait).

5 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said:

also, if we're using all these things, should we give windrunner squires? It's part of their toolkit to have more squires than the other Radiants after all.

Then can the Fullborn have access to any number of loyal minions who are tapping Unsealed Metalminds created by said Fullborn? Fullborn doesn't have a limit on how many people they can Invest. A Radiant does.

[therunner]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Would you kill your best friend just because?

You store or tap connections, this weakens or strengthens connection. If you can use it to make spren bond you, break into hemalurgic constructs (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/356/#e10524), you can use it this way as well. Tapping connections makes you become friends faster.

By meeting him and fighting with him. Compound rest if you have to or use pre-stored connections.

Disclaimer, I think Fullborn would win (F-steel -> get close -> F-pewter + A-pewter + A-duralumin punch -> A-nicrosil + A-duralumin -> F-pewter punch)

But F-Duralumin would not just allow Fullborn to become 'friend' of the Radiant. While it can form Connection by connecting to e.g. land, person etc. it does not necessarily allow to choose what kind of bond it creates.

Much more realistic is that tapping F-duralumin would strengthen the connection 'being enemies since we are fighting to death', not overwrite it with 'friends'. And if it did, it goes both ways, so suddently Fullborn would consider himself friend of Radiant as well.

And the squire trick would probably be more invovled, as per WoB it would require a bit of legwork, and is more complicated then other methods.

Quote

Gold is enough, you just need to stay very healthy.

No it is not, aging is part of spiritual ideal, so age related health issues cannot be cured by gold, even with compounding.

Quote

Well, Fullborn has nicrosil and he can make medallions and bring an army of Fullborns with him. Should we include them? No, 1 on 1 fight. Squires are people, not weapons or tools. Even with squires, Fullborn uses just compounded speed and strength, and kills Windrunner immediately, and now all his squires are powerless.

Can he?
We don't know how medallions are made, only that it requires excisor and some powers are involved.

Whereas squires are proven to spring into existence just from people being friends with Windrunner.

[Trusk'our]

18 minutes ago, therunner said:

Can he?
We don't know how medallions are made, only that it requires excisor and some powers are involved.

I'm pretty sure that's how the powers work, yes. You'd just want to be careful who you give those powers to, since they could use them against you.

I think the reason the Excisors are needed is because they replace the natural powers of a Soulbearer, allowing other Metalborn to store their powers in the medallions for others to use. In fact, I would bet the "Excisors" are nothing more than one or more Unsealed Metalminds created by the Sovreign for the Southern Scadriens. But, we don't know for sure yet.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Trusk'our