Fullborn V.S. 5th Ideal Windrunners

[cometaryorbit]

8 hours ago, therunner said:

If the calculation makes sense as order of magnitude estimate, then we can easily rule out most of the more outrageous statements about Fullborn (i.e. become black hole, melt the planet etc.).

In fact, per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126) the feruchemy is increasingly inefficient the harder you tap .

Yeah, there's no way. Diminishing returns means eating a battleship sized metalmind probably wouldn’t be enough for those...

I think a human becoming a black hole would have to mass dozens of times more than the entire Earth.

I think diminishing returns means the upper *practical* limit is a lot more reasonable than often suggested. And we haven't seen much of live Plate. Dead Shardplate has the strength of "many men", and the size of Dalinar's hammer compared to RL warhammers suggests something like 20-30x strength. So I'd argue that Shardplate is probably at least as strong as Sazed at massive F-pewter levels at the end of WoA, or the largest koloss.

[therunner]

7 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I kind of feel like we must agree on more than we disagree on because I think 20x normal through compounding at a burn rate that would take days is far more than enough to win the fight.  

20x 200lbs is 4000lbs.  Shardplate comes in at about 1400lbs.  

20x 24mph = 480mph... again you said the bands would take days to burn... thus 480mph for days.  

20x a 400lb deadlift (800-1200lbs for pewter burn / flare) would bring it up to strength capable of deadlifting 8000 / 16000 / 24000 lbs again capable of burning it for days.  

20x connection to the forces of nature as they actually exist not how the radiant wants them to exist.

20x mental speed

I made a mistake there, it should have been 10x fold increase when burning, (for 10+1 amount of regular attribute), since if by tapping you get +100% (i.e. doubles), then burning gives 10 times that, it gives +1000% of attribute, for the end result of 10x increase.

So 10x 200lbs = 2000 lbs (still more than Shardplate, but not by much)

10x 24 mph = 480 mph at most (which is still respectable, but far cry from Mach speeds mentioned earlier in the thread) and these are speeds Windrunner can match and exceed (under favorable conditions)

10x increase in strength is less then what Shardplate can do (which is in the range of 20-30x increase), so using just this Fullborn would be weaker than Radiant in Plate (but there is also A-Pewter that would add increase, and possibility to compound it, which would put them on par or beyond depending on how that can work).

10x Connection we have no clue what would do, or if you can store connection to 'forces of nature'

10x mental speed is impressive, but far cry from 'limitless mental speed' as has been described earlier

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Even limited to that box is the fullborn not enough to crush a radiant inside of its armor?  And this isn't tapping for sonic booms.  Why does a person need to tap for a sonic boom and waste all of their stores in one go when they can constantly exist as 20x the person they are normally?  The advantage is already so strong and that is just burning your metalmind at the painfully slow rate of not being allowed to flare or using duralumin.  

I don't think they are actually.
Shardplate vs Shardplate combat is a thing on Roshar already (for deadplate), and since it seems that Shardplate is stronger than Fullborn who is 'just' burning attributes, Fullborn would have issues breaking through plate.

They would have to resort to Duralumin punches, or possibly Duralumin Steel to get through, which would still take few hits to do.
The 10x increase in speed is again the one thing that would allow Fullborn to win, but at those speeds Windrunner has more of a chance to immobilize Fullborn (e.g. using Reverse Lashings).

[alder24]

On 3.03.2023 at 2:31 PM, therunner said:

Fullborn without F-steel vs 5th Oath Radiant, I think that could be more interesting match up (provided @Frustration does not mind this shift of subject matter).

Hmm, now this is getting more equal. Fullborn loses his biggest advantage. Now he is only as fast on the ground as Winndruner, Fullborn has his speed because of A-pewter, Windrunner because of Stormlight and Shardplate. However Fullborn still can one punch kill a Windrunner, but now Windrunner has a "normal" reaction time, and can avoid it. Fullborn still can get few cuts from Shardblade and heal them, so he is more resilient than Windrunner, but now he has a hard time getting to him. Fullborn still has a zinc, his second biggest advantage, and can calculate in his mind where to stand and how to dodge and strike to reach Windrunner, but Windrunner, even if he can't think that fast, can still avoid him. If Windrunner is in the air, taking advantage of 15ft Shardspear, Fullborn can jump into the air and try catching him - it will be hard, as he can move out of the way, but still possible, but better to use steel pushes to get into the air, but Windrunner can outmaneuver him there. Fullborn needs only one punch to kill him (punching him in the helmet to penetrate it with his fist and crash skull beneath and leech), but now he has a much harder time catching him. Fullborn still has a bendalloy bubble, which will help him react and reposition very fast.

Now Windrunner can do this "vacuum tunnel" thing and move mach 10, but it would actually be far more disadvantageous, than moving just out of Fullborn's reach, close and "relatively" slow, as with this tunnel, Windrunner still can't react to Fullborn, while Fullborn has some chances of avoiding it just narrowly, but using chromium fortune, zinc, electrum and bendalloy. I see the best tactic for a Windrunner to be cautious, close to a Fullborn but out of his reach, using Shardspear to slowly drain him out of gold healing and avoid his killing strikes.

I give them 50-50 chances of winning this. 

19 hours ago, therunner said:

More speculatively, we know that aluminum does not show up in A-Atium sight, and that heavily Invested objects don't show for steelsight.
Combined I speculate that such heavily Invested objects would also not show up in A-Atium sight, which would render Atium substantially weaker against Shardblades.
However, that is more of a Wild-mass guess

Even if a Shardblade can't be seen by electrum, you can still see its effects, like limb going numb, tripping and stuff like that, and avoid that "general area". However you can learn to see steelsight like inquisitors do, and they can recognise Kandra, therefore they do see invested objects. So I think that with a bit of practice you would be able to see the Atium shadow of a Shardblade, and even its steel lines.

16 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

They can store, and more importantly tap connection to the ground. This makes RL less powerful.

That's a great defense to reverse lashing. 

15 hours ago, therunner said:

And on using A-duralumin to speed up the process, I think that it is simply not feasible to handle, even for Fullborn.
You can manage the rate at which you store attribute, but the sudden influx of massive amount of attribute at once would be too much, since the attribute still passes through Fullborn. So inevitably the Fullborn would for some amount of time embody that attribute, which would be deadly to them for a lot of the occurrences. Plus who knows what such influx of attribute would do to their spiritweb.
And it would require great coordination on the end of Fullborn.

I believe you could do it, compound with duralumin and store it straight into a new metalmind. You can do it with smaller metalminds, or with a small zincmind to help control it.

[therunner]

18 hours ago, alder24 said:

Hmm, now this is getting more equal. Fullborn loses his biggest advantage. Now he is only as fast on the ground as Winndruner, Fullborn has his speed because of A-pewter, Windrunner because of Stormlight and Shardplate. However Fullborn still can one punch kill a Windrunner, but now Windrunner has a "normal" reaction time, and can avoid it. Fullborn still can get few cuts from Shardblade and heal them, so he is more resilient than Windrunner, but now he has a hard time getting to him. Fullborn still has a zinc, his second biggest advantage, and can calculate in his mind where to stand and how to dodge and strike to reach Windrunner, but Windrunner, even if he can't think that fast, can still avoid him. If Windrunner is in the air, taking advantage of 15ft Shardspear, Fullborn can jump into the air and try catching him - it will be hard, as he can move out of the way, but still possible, but better to use steel pushes to get into the air, but Windrunner can outmaneuver him there. Fullborn needs only one punch to kill him (punching him in the helmet to penetrate it with his fist and crash skull beneath and leech), but now he has a much harder time catching him. Fullborn still has a bendalloy bubble, which will help him react and reposition very fast.

Now Windrunner can do this "vacuum tunnel" thing and move mach 10, but it would actually be far more disadvantageous, than moving just out of Fullborn's reach, close and "relatively" slow, as with this tunnel, Windrunner still can't react to Fullborn, while Fullborn has some chances of avoiding it just narrowly, but using chromium fortune, zinc, electrum and bendalloy. I see the best tactic for a Windrunner to be cautious, close to a Fullborn but out of his reach, using Shardspear to slowly drain him out of gold healing and avoid his killing strikes.

I give them 50-50 chances of winning this. 

Generally I agree with that assessment, though I don't think the one-punch thing will work.
Shardplate seems to break like ablative armor (exploding outwards), so I think Fullborn would require at least two punches (one to break helm, second to break skull and touch Radiant). Still feasible, but bit more complicated for Fullborn, and the hit would require Duralumin most likely (or Compounded stores of A-pewter).

Also, Windrunner can use Reverse Lashings much more easily now, if Fullborn breaks contact with ground they would get captured (cannot strengthen Connection to ground if the ground is not Connected to you).

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Even if a Shardblade can't be seen by electrum, you can still see its effects, like limb going numb, tripping and stuff like that, and avoid that "general area". However you can learn to see steelsight like inquisitors do, and they can recognise Kandra, therefore they do see invested objects. So I think that with a bit of practice you would be able to see the Atium shadow of a Shardblade, and even its steel lines.

Could you? Sure leg you would see it buckling, but not now why it happened. However, off hand you might not notice getting cut. Plus using Electrum like this requires either a lot of practice, or non-stop usage of Zinc.

And I don't think practice would let you see steel lines of Shardblade, it is not question of skill but of Investiture levels and power. Hemalurgic spikes have very low levels of Investiture, even compared  to metalminds, much less Shardblades. Steelsight can be learned, but what you see with it is affected by your power (i.e. regular Inquisitor steelsight, vs BoM granted Steelsight Wax exhibited).
The atium is speculative, but if Shardblade (and godmetals in general) would not be visible, then the same should hold, i.e. it is not question of skill.

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That's a great defense to reverse lashing. 

Addressed above (to some extent).
However, I have question, Ishar Connected Windrunners strongly to ground, causing Stormlight to run out of their bodies. Could it be that if Fullborn tapped too much Connection to ground, their tapped stores would go to ground too? If so, this would limit applicability of this strategy.

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I believe you could do it, compound with duralumin and store it straight into a new metalmind. You can do it with smaller metalminds, or with a small zincmind to help control it.

I don't think it is actually feasible (compounding fast with A-Duralumin) for one reason, Brandon often limits the magic system if it break things 'too much'.
I.e. up until TLM these conversations (vs battles) were dominated by Scadrial using hemalurgy and medallions to create armies of Compounders, and everyone questioned how can Scadrial not just dominate everyone in Era 4. After TLM it turns out compounding with Hemalurgy and medallions is not possible.

Similarly, I think letting A-Duralumin bypass one of the only two limitations Fullborn has (time and access to a lot of metal) will simply not be possible for similar reason.

Also remember that the attribute will still pass through Fullborn, which would probably do stuff to their spiritweb if done in those quantities.
 

[alder24]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Generally I agree with that assessment, though I don't think the one-punch thing will work.
Shardplate seems to break like ablative armor (exploding outwards), so I think Fullborn would require at least two punches (one to break helm, second to break skull and touch Radiant). Still feasible, but bit more complicated for Fullborn, and the hit would require Duralumin most likely (or Compounded stores of A-pewter).

Yes, it can be two punches. What I imagine a Shardplate segment would do when struck by such force is that the center, where it was hit, would collapse inwards, while the explosion outwards would be all around it, allowing a Fullborn to just punch through it.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Could you? Sure leg you would see it buckling, but not now why it happened. However, off hand you might not notice getting cut. Plus using Electrum like this requires either a lot of practice, or non-stop usage of Zinc.

With zinc you could momentarily spot the damage done by a Shardblade to your body and deduce what caused it, as there is only one option possible - Shardblade.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

And I don't think practice would let you see steel lines of Shardblade, it is not question of skill but of Investiture levels and power. Hemalurgic spikes have very low levels of Investiture, even compared  to metalminds, much less Shardblades. Steelsight can be learned, but what you see with it is affected by your power (i.e. regular Inquisitor steelsight, vs BoM granted Steelsight Wax exhibited).
The atium is speculative, but if Shardblade (and godmetals in general) would not be visible, then the same should hold, i.e. it is not question of skill.

The thing is, as Wax noted, everything is made out of the same stuff - people, souls, physical stuff, and power. It's the same thing. And if you can learn to see more detailed steelsight, then you can see beyond metal or investiture.

But I don't agree that god metals in general are just invisible to electrum/atium and steelsight, but this is pure speculation so there is no point in arguing about it. For the sake of discussion I'm assuming they can't be seen by electrum shadows, but the effects of Shardblade's strikes can be.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

However, I have question, Ishar Connected Windrunners strongly to ground, causing Stormlight to run out of their bodies. Could it be that if Fullborn tapped too much Connection to ground, their tapped stores would go to ground too? If so, this would limit applicability of this strategy.

I don't know, I think it depends on the type of connection. Ishar just connected them to the ground, so their body thought it's a ground. But the ground connection people experience on a regular basis would be a different type of connection, gravitational one. So it wouldn't go that far, it might just at worst increase the gravitational acceleration felt by them.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

I don't think it is actually feasible (compounding fast with A-Duralumin) for one reason, Brandon often limits the magic system if it break things 'too much'.
I.e. up until TLM these conversations (vs battles) were dominated by Scadrial using hemalurgy and medallions to create armies of Compounders, and everyone questioned how can Scadrial not just dominate everyone in Era 4. After TLM it turns out compounding with Hemalurgy and medallions is not possible.

Similarly, I think letting A-Duralumin bypass one of the only two limitations Fullborn has (time and access to a lot of metal) will simply not be possible for similar reason.

Also remember that the attribute will still pass through Fullborn, which would probably do stuff to their spiritweb if done in those quantities.

But then there is a little gremlin in your calculations - Miles. He spent 15 years in the Roughs as a lawman, constantly using his Health to heal even serious wounds (like dynamite exploding in his hand to get rid of nets). The fact that he can heal a gunshot wound just as a bullet is passing through him, or fall from heights and break his legs, healing them as they break, tells me that he was compressing his healing dozens of times for every wound, and yet he never even feared running out of stored health. Your calculations don't support what Miles was doing, as he started early as in the Roughs and doesn't spend decades on storing his health, nor did he have to replenish his attributes after spending a lot of health.

Then again, duralumin boosted compounding is a speculation on my side, based on the WoB telling that you can move attribute from one metalmind to the other, without losing much of it, and therefore you aren't using that attribute, investiture does flow through you, which would probably lead you closer to savantism, if you aren't one already. 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

On 3/4/2023 at 0:43 AM, therunner said:

I made a mistake there, it should have been 10x fold increase when burning, (for 10+1 amount of regular attribute), since if by tapping you get +100% (i.e. doubles), then burning gives 10 times that, it gives +1000% of attribute, for the end result of 10x increase.

So 10x 200lbs = 2000 lbs (still more than Shardplate, but not by much)

10x 24 mph = 480 mph at most (which is still respectable, but far cry from Mach speeds mentioned earlier in the thread) and these are speeds Windrunner can match and exceed (under favorable conditions)

10x increase in strength is less then what Shardplate can do (which is in the range of 20-30x increase), so using just this Fullborn would be weaker than Radiant in Plate (but there is also A-Pewter that would add increase, and possibility to compound it, which would put them on par or beyond depending on how that can work).

10x Connection we have no clue what would do, or if you can store connection to 'forces of nature'

10x mental speed is impressive, but far cry from 'limitless mental speed' as has been described earlier

I don't think they are actually.
Shardplate vs Shardplate combat is a thing on Roshar already (for deadplate), and since it seems that Shardplate is stronger than Fullborn who is 'just' burning attributes, Fullborn would have issues breaking through plate.

They would have to resort to Duralumin punches, or possibly Duralumin Steel to get through, which would still take few hits to do.
The 10x increase in speed is again the one thing that would allow Fullborn to win, but at those speeds Windrunner has more of a chance to immobilize Fullborn (e.g. using Reverse Lashings).

I think the standard 10x or even 20x thing was lazy math for compounding so I wanted to dig deeper into just how invested the bands were.  

If there was 24cc worth steel on the bands of mourning that equates to about 188grams.  If steel were to burn at a rate of 1g/hour that is a total of 676,800 total seconds of steel being burnt.  

We know that feruchemy can be doubled for half the time at its base.  We don't have any idea what the diminishing returns are but we do know that marasi tapped so much attribute that she was leaking mist.  

If Marasi was moving just Mach 1 and no faster (some have mentioned Mach 7 in this conversation but I want to stick with just Mach 1 for this).  The world record time for a female 100m is 10.49 seconds bringing the fastest women in the world to just over 21mph (not counting for acceleration at all).  762mph for Mach 1 divided by that 21mph is just over 36. 

If Marasi were the fastest woman in the world she would have to tap 36x her normal maximum speed to make that happen. In total the bands allowed their users Mach 1 for 2 seconds or so?  If there were zero diminishing returns and the time got cut in half every time you doubled your speed  then the bands held... the ability to double ones speed for at least 68.7 billion seconds.  

You have to cut that in half nearly 17 times to land on the 678 thousand seconds that it will take to burn that steel allomantically.  And then compounding increases your attribute gain by 10x.  For a compounder to burn the steel from the bands of mourning... each second the world's fastest female sprinter could move 170x faster than she currently does.  3570 mph or closer to mach 4.6. 

And they could do that every second of every day for more than a week straight.  

Compounding is beyond broken.  

I did assume that a BB at 0.3g would burn over 20 minutes which I think is pretty close to what we see in the books.  

I accounted for no diminishing returns at all in the tapping process for Marasi.  At the rate she was tapping she could have been wasting more than double what she was using. (She did leak mist).  I don't know that compounding brings with it any diminishing returns though I assume some probably gets lost in the process.  

This certainly explains how Miles can passively burn gold all the time and survive being shot in the face multiple times. 

And what we see from the bands is that you simply have to store 17x the amount of attribute for the burn time to achieve this. If kel stored 34 hours at 50% speed into a gram of steel he could compound that up to the 188 grams in the bands over just a couple of days.  Granted you are at a week now with the bands and to compound them to 1880 grams would take that whole week of storing which may be tedious but a compounder with knowledge of how to do it like Miles and the determination could certainly have made a suit of armor in the years it took Kal to advance in his order. 

I did all of this thinking in the shower this morning so I am totally open to hearing where it is wrong but I definatwly think it demonstrates compoundings ability.  And fullborn have had their entire lives to play with their powers.  Of course they can tap and burn and store multiple metals at once.  I won't go as far as to say every metal at the same time all the time but for steel alone (because it is the easiest to get numbers for) illustrates that Marasi's 2 seconds at Mach 1 could have been compounded by Wax for 7 days straight at Mach 4+

 

[Letryx13]

I've said it before, but I'm confident that the only radiant (at any ideal) that could beat a FullBorn is a BondSmith.  They're just too powerful, for the other orders to defeat, except maybe by SoulCasting them from Shadesmar, but FullBorn are likely too invested for that.  

 

[therunner]

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think the standard 10x or even 20x thing was lazy math for compounding so I wanted to dig deeper into just how invested the bands were. 

The 10x is what is stated in the books, both in Era 1 (Sazed guess) and in Era 2 (by Miles).

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We know that feruchemy can be doubled for half the time at its base.  We don't have any idea what the diminishing returns are but we do know that marasi tapped so much attribute that she was leaking mist

We have some idea, there is one WoB on the possible rate of diminishing returns, I used it earlier. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126)
Additionally, we don't know why Marasi and Wax were leaking Mists, when even Miles or TLR never did.

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If there was 24cc worth steel on the bands of mourning that equates to about 188grams.  If steel were to burn at a rate of 1g/hour that is a total of 676,800 total seconds of steel being burnt.  

If Marasi was moving just Mach 1 and no faster (some have mentioned Mach 7 in this conversation but I want to stick with just Mach 1 for this).  The world record time for a female 100m is 10.49 seconds bringing the fastest women in the world to just over 21mph (not counting for acceleration at all).  762mph for Mach 1 divided by that 21mph is just over 36. 

If Marasi were the fastest woman in the world she would have to tap 36x her normal maximum speed to make that happen. In total the bands allowed their users Mach 1 for 2 seconds or so?  If there were zero diminishing returns and the time got cut in half every time you doubled your speed  then the bands held... the ability to double ones speed for at least 68.7 billion seconds.  

You have to cut that in half nearly 17 times to land on the 678 thousand seconds that it will take to burn that steel allomantically.  And then compounding increases your attribute gain by 10x.  For a compounder to burn the steel from the bands of mourning... each second the world's fastest female sprinter could move 170x faster than she currently does.  3570 mph or closer to mach 4.6. 

And they could do that every second of every day for more than a week straight.  

This assumes that burn rate for the regular metal, and for the metalmind is the same, which we don't actually know.
In fact there is WoB that the burn rate is proportional to power unleashed (more power, faster burn rate), so I would assume Steelmind would burn faster then regular steel.

So I would assume that steelmind burns faster, but we don't have a good way to establish base rate of attribute it provides.

Additionally, there does not seem to be difference between power of burning just partially charged metalmind, and fully charged metalmind (you just burn out the charged part of metal, and afterwards it is just metal), which in your calculation should make a difference.

Edit: Basically, if it worked the way you suggest, then Miles has no reason not to burn his goldminds all the time, since they would burn slowly enough to not get consumed that often and would provide greater benefit.
Yet he compounds in his spare time, and then just taps as needed. This suggests that burning the goldmines does not provide him with the amount of healing he would need.

In conclusion, I think it does not make sense.

It would make anyone with access to unkeyed metalminds basically completely broken, which again, just does not seem to be happening.

I think burning metalminds allomantically grants you good deal of power, but not more so than Feruchemist could easily achieve (albeit for longer). But it is tapping the Compounded stores Feruchemically which allows for the insane feats. Basically just like in regular allomancy vs feruchemy, allomancy is strong on average, but Feruchemy spikes a lot higher.

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This certainly explains how Miles can passively burn gold all the time and survive being shot in the face multiple times. 

He burns through gold quickly, that is one stated reasons he keeps robbing people. He needs the gold for his metalminds.
Which again suggests that metalminds burn faster, which would admittedly cut down time needed to Compounded by some factor.

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And what we see from the bands is that you simply have to store 17x the amount of attribute for the burn time to achieve this. If kel stored 34 hours at 50% speed into a gram of steel he could compound that up to the 188 grams in the bands over just a couple of days.  Granted you are at a week now with the bands and to compound them to 1880 grams would take that whole week of storing which may be tedious but a compounder with knowledge of how to do it like Miles and the determination could certainly have made a suit of armor in the years it took Kal to advance in his order. 

Why are you talking about Kel? As far as we know he is not Fullborn.

EDIT: Response to @alder24

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Yes, it can be two punches. What I imagine a Shardplate segment would do when struck by such force is that the center, where it was hit, would collapse inwards, while the explosion outwards would be all around it, allowing a Fullborn to just punch through it.

Possible, we will see one day

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With zinc you could momentarily spot the damage done by a Shardblade to your body and deduce what caused it, as there is only one option possible - Shardblade.

I question that you could spot it in the first place, depending on the location (.e.g you would notice a leg, but would you notice a couple of fingers?)

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The thing is, as Wax noted, everything is made out of the same stuff - people, souls, physical stuff, and power. It's the same thing. And if you can learn to see more detailed steelsight, then you can see beyond metal or investiture.

Yes, but that was done using Bands of Mourning, Marsh does not see that despite being Inquisitor.
So it is not just question of skill.

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But I don't agree that god metals in general are just invisible to electrum/atium and steelsight, but this is pure speculation so there is no point in arguing about it. For the sake of discussion I'm assuming they can't be seen by electrum shadows, but the effects of Shardblade's strikes can be.

Fair, I did not intend it to be taken as fact, just a fun speculation I had.
I do think some Shardblade strikes would be visible, but not all, however all would use up healing.

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I don't know, I think it depends on the type of connection. Ishar just connected them to the ground, so their body thought it's a ground. But the ground connection people experience on a regular basis would be a different type of connection, gravitational one. So it wouldn't go that far, it might just at worst increase the gravitational acceleration felt by them.

Possible, and they would have to either tap more Strength to move, or store weight to be able to move.
It would possibly introduce complications is my point.

And if Fullborn got into air, they would be completely vulnerable to Reverse Lashing.

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But then there is a little gremlin in your calculations - Miles. He spent 15 years in the Roughs as a lawman, constantly using his Health to heal even serious wounds (like dynamite exploding in his hand to get rid of nets). The fact that he can heal a gunshot wound just as a bullet is passing through him, or fall from heights and break his legs, healing them as they break, tells me that he was compressing his healing dozens of times for every wound, and yet he never even feared running out of stored health. Your calculations don't support what Miles was doing, as he started early as in the Roughs and doesn't spend decades on storing his health, nor did he have to replenish his attributes after spending a lot of health.

I mean, Wayne has no issue healing bullet wounds or being splattered after falling hundreds of feat (rotten tomato, suggesting the damage is extensive), despite not being Compounder.

So even regular healing has no issues with that sort of thing, and Miles is not doing things that outside of what Wayne does, he just does it more often.

I did not want to talk about health, because there we don't really have solid understanding on how it behaves (and in books it seems to just heal about anything). I mean at some point Wayne heals gunshot wound with just health he stored in not even few weeks.

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Then again, duralumin boosted compounding is a speculation on my side, based on the WoB telling that you can move attribute from one metalmind to the other, without losing much of it, and therefore you aren't using that attribute, investiture does flow through you, which would probably lead you closer to savantism, if you aren't one already. 

Could you quote me that WoB? I tried looking it up, but failed.

Edited March 5 by therunner

[alder24]

44 minutes ago, therunner said:

I question that you could spot it in the first place, depending on the location (.e.g you would notice a leg, but would you notice a couple of fingers?)

Some parts not, like strike in the guts without severing nerve connection, fingers moves so, yes, he would most likely.

44 minutes ago, therunner said:

Possible, and they would have to either tap more Strength to move, or store weight to be able to move.
It would possibly introduce complications is my point.

And if Fullborn got into air, they would be completely vulnerable to Reverse Lashing.

Not necessarily, because if they start strengthening their connection to the ground on the ground, they can keep it up even when they jump/steel push away from the ground, thus maintaining the same connection. Depending on how this connection to the ground works with gravity, they might need to tap pewter, iron not, as iron doesn't change gravitational acceleration, but it would make their jumps/steep pushes higher while tapping iron.

44 minutes ago, therunner said:

I mean, Wayne has no issue healing bullet wounds or being splattered after falling hundreds of feat (rotten tomato, suggesting the damage is extensive), despite not being Compounder.

So even regular healing has no issues with that sort of thing, and Miles is not doing things that outside of what Wayne does, he just does it more often.

He does. He constantly mention that he has low health, and can heal one or two more bullets wounds, sometimes he is fully out if health, and the rotten tomato was with the use of unkeyed goldmind they'd taken from Seran, if I remember correctly, drained really fast while he was still taking few dozens of seconds to heal after that fall. Wayne constantly has troubles with healing, has to heal less and slower to preserve his goldminds, while Miles just explodes dynamite in his hand, walks straight through bullets healing them as they enter his body. Things that Miles does are just unachievable for Wayne, which I think was said in the books.

44 minutes ago, therunner said:

Could you quote me that WoB? I tried looking it up, but failed.

This is the one I'm talking about:

Spoiler

Lightning

If you have a metalmind, you have, like, weight stored in it, and you want to transfer it to a different metalmind, can you just transfer it directly? Or does it pass into you, and then you lose some of the power, and then it goes...

Brandon Sanderson

You don't have to draw it completely out. You are gonna lose a little in the transfer. But it's not as much as you probably think. You can kind of do a little hack thing where it goes through.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

But I somehow still think there was another one, but I might be misremembering, as I couldn’t find any more on that matter.

Edited March 5 by alder24

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

41 minutes ago, therunner said:

Why are you talking about Kel? As far as we know he is not Fullborn

I just thought Kel was who made the bands. I can't keep it all straight sometimes.  

As for the burn time, even if it burns way faster then that is being compounded even faster and burning it would just make the steel runner that much faster.  

Again, this is just for the bands, and the math shows that it is within a weeks concentrated efforts to compound that amount.  

This also supports my theory that Bleeder may have never been a steel feruchemist and always just a coinshot with some unkeyed metalminds.  

The reason we aren't seeing how bonkers the compounding is could be a simple lack of understanding and knowledge. I don't know that Miles seems like the guy to hand all of his secrets over to the set.  Hopefully the potency to compounding, in large, died with him. 

The Set would not be chasing F gold if it was common knowledge.  The set would likely be chasing A gold and using unkeyed metalminds in shavings form.  

 

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

He does. He constantly mention that he has low health, and can heal one or two more bullets wounds, sometimes he is fully out if health, and the rotten tomato was with the use of unkeyed goldmind they'd taken from Seran, if I remember correctly, drained really fast while he was still taking few dozens of seconds to heal after that fall. Wayne constantly has troubles with healing, has to heal less and slower to preserve his goldminds, while Miles just explodes dynamite in his hand, walks straight through bullets healing them as they enter his body. Things that Miles does are just unachievable for Wayne, which I think was said in the books.

Exactly this.  The difference between Wayne and Miles is that Wayne can dilate time to appear to be healing far faster than he is.  Where Miles fell and never tomatoed because he healed so fast that he just kept walking like nothing happened Wayne blew through a huge chunk of healing and he even healed it slowly in comparison.  

Healing rate is the same with stacking speed.  What we saw marasi do in 2 second could last wax burning the bands 7 days and he would be going 4x as fast.  

Wayne would blow through a whole metalmind to heal as fast as miles did just by burning for a few seconds.  

Miles was wasting health at an insane rate.  He sounds like he was burning gold nonstop to prevent sneak attacks. (Not just healing them but instantly so).  

[therunner]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Some parts not, like strike in the guts without severing nerve connection, fingers moves so, yes, he would most likely.

Ok, it seems we are mostly in agreement on this then.

Quote

Not necessarily, because if they start strengthening their connection to the ground on the ground, they can keep it up even when they jump/steel push away from the ground, thus maintaining the same connection. Depending on how this connection to the ground works with gravity, they might need to tap pewter, iron not, as iron doesn't change gravitational acceleration, but it would make their jumps/steep pushes higher while tapping iron.

I don't think that would workout, because even in air objects are still connected (in the gravity sense) to ground, yet they are apparently easier to influence with Reverse Lashing then.
So I think it is actual touching of ground (being literally 'grounded') that partially protects against Reverse Lashings.
So if you break connection to ground, you get no protection.

F-Iron would help also, while the acceleration would be same as you say, the weight Fullborn's muscles would have to lift (of their body) would be lower, so they would need less of their strength to just work against this modified gravity.

Hmm, interesting though, Lash someone directly to ground a few times to heavily slow them down (or to do weight training)

Quote

He does. He constantly mention that he has low health, and can heal one or two more bullets wounds, sometimes he is fully out if health, and the rotten tomato was with the use of unkeyed goldmind they'd taken from Seran, if I remember correctly, drained really fast while he was still taking few dozens of seconds to heal after that fall. Wayne constantly has troubles with healing, has to heal less and slower to preserve his goldminds, while Miles just explodes dynamite in his hand, walks straight through bullets healing them as they enter his body. Things that Miles does are just unachievable for Wayne, which I think was said in the books.

Oh Wayne complains about running low, but that does not change the fact that even ordinary Gold Ferring can apparently heal couple of bullet wounds just on few weeks worth of stored health.

Also, while the Rotten tomato we see was done using unkeyed goldmine, they have clearly performed the move before, so it can be clearly done using regular stores Ferring can easily amass.

I agree that some of Miles feats are unachievable, however I think for a lot of them the difference is speed with which Miles heals, not the magnitude of damage itself (i.e Miles does not have to care too much about loss when tapping ). Wayne would definately be able to heal broken legs within seconds, and heals bullet wounds in minutes (or even faster).

Point is that they are not out of scope of what Gold Ferring with e.g. year of storage could do, it is just that Miles does it in quick succession, because he can compound stores. I.e. give Wayne year or two to store health nonstop and he could walk through hail of bullets too, but then he would be completly out. Miles can compound health for that and more in few days.

Quote

This is the one I'm talking about:

  Reveal hidden contents

Lightning

If you have a metalmind, you have, like, weight stored in it, and you want to transfer it to a different metalmind, can you just transfer it directly? Or does it pass into you, and then you lose some of the power, and then it goes...

Brandon Sanderson

You don't have to draw it completely out. You are gonna lose a little in the transfer. But it's not as much as you probably think. You can kind of do a little hack thing where it goes through.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

But I somehow still think there was another one, but I might be misremembering, as I couldn’t find any more on that matter.

Thanks!
Hmm, it seems to me that it does have to pass through the Feruchemist but you can kinda bypass some of the limitations?
Not as clear as I hoped

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I just thought Kel was who made the bands. I can't keep it all straight sometimes. 

A lot of people speculated on that (and that Kel must be Fullborn because of that). But we don't know basically anything about Bands, or their origin, or even what they actually are (considering the limitations medallions have)

Quote

As for the burn time, even if it burns way faster then that is being compounded even faster and burning it would just make the steel runner that much faster.  

It would make compounding faster, but it would not make steelrunner much faster.
Different allomantic metals burn at different speeds, so it is possible F-steel metal burns very fast for e.g. only 10x increase in speed. We simply don't know.
The point is that F-steel will burn at some fixed speed, and will grant some fixed increase in physical speed. However, the speed at which F-steel burns is unknown, and based on behavior of other metals probably far larger than ordinary steel. E.g. you would burn that steelmind at rate of 0.1/g per second for example, while only getting 10x increase in speed. (exaggertated)

Quote

Again, this is just for the bands, and the math shows that it is within a weeks concentrated efforts to compound that amount.  

We don't know how bands work, nor do we know how quickly F-metals burn, so we cannot really say that.

Quote

This also supports my theory that Bleeder may have never been a steel feruchemist and always just a coinshot with some unkeyed metalminds.  

I think that as well, except that her steelminds were those of the Ferring she killed with spike (hemalurgist can access the stores of the previous 'owner', and could possibly burn them).

Also I think Bleeder goes against your example, she only shows about 10-15x fold increase in speed, and she seems to be running out by the end (if I recall). So this would be evidence that burning F-steel metalmind increases your speed only in the ballpark of 10-15 fold increase.

Quote

The reason we aren't seeing how bonkers the compounding is could be a simple lack of understanding and knowledge. I don't know that Miles seems like the guy to hand all of his secrets over to the set.  Hopefully the potency to compounding, in large, died with him. 

The Set would not be chasing F gold if it was common knowledge.  The set would likely be chasing A gold and using unkeyed metalminds in shavings form.  

But Miles knows how much he is getting from burning metalminds, and how quickly they burn.
If that solution was as superior as your assumptions/calculations are suggesting, then why would he not do that? He does not lack knowledge nor understanding, he literally experiences the effect every few days, so he would know.

So basically my point is that Miles proves that burning the metalminds cannot work as you suggest (i.e. release such insane amount of power for so long) because otherwise Miles has zero reason to not just slowly burn the metalminds he has.
So the amount of healing from burning must be insufficient for his purposes, or the goldminds burn a lot faster than regular gold, or both.

Set possibly not knowing also does not make sense, they would find out second A-gold allomancer burned shaving from unkeyed metalmind, and they have those.
I mean, I am sure they tried getting some to compound.

There could be more said, but that is TLM spoiler territory.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Miles was wasting health at an insane rate.  He sounds like he was burning gold nonstop to prevent sneak attacks. (Not just healing them but instantly so).  

No Miles was not burning, he was tapping.
Miles only burned to Compound and store the compounded health.

Edited March 5 by therunner

[Lost Lobo]

On 2/28/2023 at 0:02 PM, Wits instant noodles said:

Who would win a Fullborn or a 5th ideal Windrunner. This has a lot of different angles we could take and i think it will be cool to explore!

1. Whoever Brandon wants to win, wins.

2. Depends on Fullborn v Windborn's relative levels of Investiture / Storage / Metals.

3. Assuming full investiture / storage / metals for both... likely a Fullborn. Not just particularly because of the insane speed / strength / healing, but because, more broadly, they have full access to two complete magic systems, whereas the Windrunner only has access to 1/10th of one.

[alder24]

8 minutes ago, therunner said:

I don't think that would workout, because even in air objects are still connected (in the gravity sense) to ground, yet they are apparently easier to influence with Reverse Lashing then.
So I think it is actual touching of ground (being literally 'grounded') that partially protects against Reverse Lashings.
So if you break connection to ground, you get no protection.

It's not a connection to a ground, it's the Connection to the ground, spiritual link, Ars Arcanum:

Spoiler

At its heart, this Lashing created a bubble around the object that imitated its spiritual link to the ground beneath it. As such, it was much harder for the Lashing to affect objects touching the ground, where their link to the planet was strongest. Objects falling or in flight were the easiest to influence. Other objects could be affected, but the Stormlight and skill required were much more substantial.

So yes, a Fullborn could strengthen and maintain that connection with F-duralumin, even when airborne.

11 minutes ago, therunner said:

Hmm, interesting though, Lash someone directly to ground a few times to heavily slow them down (or to do weight training)

That would work, not on Fullborn, he would leech it with chromium. But against other enemies that could be sometimes better than launching them into space

13 minutes ago, therunner said:

Oh Wayne complains about running low, but that does not change the fact that even ordinary Gold Ferring can apparently heal couple of bullet wounds just on few weeks worth of stored health.

But never a nanometers behind the bullet. Miles heals himself instantly as the bullet passes through him, before it even leaves his body. Regular gold Ferring can't do. This speed is unachievable to anyone but compounder, as the amount of attribute wasted to diminishing return would be just crazy on that time scale, and would just drain them instantly.

18 minutes ago, therunner said:

I agree that some of Miles feats are unachievable, however I think for a lot of them the difference is speed with which Miles heals, not the magnitude of damage itself (i.e Miles does not have to care too much about loss when tapping ). Wayne would definately be able to heal broken legs within seconds, and heals bullet wounds in minutes (or even faster).

Point is that they are not out of scope of what Gold Ferring with e.g. year of storage could do, it is just that Miles does it in quick succession, because he can compound stores.

Yes, but in this case the speed of healing is very important, as this is where the majority of health is wasted. While Wayne can heal broken legs, he doesn't have enough attribute to compress his healing to make it heal as his legs are being broken, without affecting his posture, like Miles can. The amount of attribute necessary for this, that is being wasted on diminishing returns is just astonishing - and Miles did it, because he didn't want to use stairs. If he can waste so much health on such useless triviality, it means that he can get that attribute back very fast, and he has so much more stored, that he didn't even feel this as a loss. This is something comparable to achieving mach 1 speed based on your calculations, but he didn't even care. Which means your calculations, while they are beautiful, are way off.

24 minutes ago, therunner said:

Thanks!
Hmm, it seems to me that it does have to pass through the Feruchemist but you can kinda bypass some of the limitations?
Not as clear as I hoped

Yes, how I see it is that investiture is passing through you, but it isn't converted to an attribute, so you don't get an explosion of power. You're probably losing some investiture on whatever the "hack thing" is.

[therunner]

37 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It's not a connection to a ground, it's the Connection to the ground, spiritual link, Ars Arcanum:

  Reveal hidden contents

At its heart, this Lashing created a bubble around the object that imitated its spiritual link to the ground beneath it. As such, it was much harder for the Lashing to affect objects touching the ground, where their link to the planet was strongest. Objects falling or in flight were the easiest to influence. Other objects could be affected, but the Stormlight and skill required were much more substantial.

So yes, a Fullborn could strengthen and maintain that connection with F-duralumin, even when airborne.

I know it is Connection, I just did not overlooked capitalization at that point.

My point, is that as said Reverse Lashing can effect objects that are on ground, it is just more difficult (and the spoiler block also points out that objects airborne have it weaker).
Question is how weaker is the Connection while in air, and how exactly F-Duralumin works (i.e. the blank Connection he see would probably not help here).
I think it would possibly make it more difficult or impossible when standing on ground to be lashed, but while in air I don't think it would help as much as you state.

Additional question is, would Fullborn even know this particular detail of Windrunners power?

Quote

That would work, not on Fullborn, he would leech it with chromium. But against other enemies that could be sometimes better than launching them into space

Not Chromium that is external, Lashing infuses the person, so Fullborn would have to burn Aluminum.
Still doable for them though, but it would remove their powers for a moment (or a while, depending on how quickly Aluminum purges).

Quote

But never a nanometers behind the bullet. Miles heals himself instantly as the bullet passes through him, before it even leaves his body. Regular gold Ferring can't do. This speed is unachievable to anyone but compounder, as the amount of attribute wasted to diminishing return would be just crazy on that time scale, and would just drain them instantly.

Where are you getting nanometers, for all we know the bullets flew through, and the entry would closed as the bullet left the body. That would also be consistent with the description in the books, and it would be healing ~miliseconds after the wound was caused.
Can't or won't because it wastes so much power?
That is my point, does he do things Ferring with a decade of storage could do once or twice, or is he completely out of their league?
And some things he does are still in the realm of Ferring.

Quote

Yes, but in this case the speed of healing is very important, as this is where the majority of health is wasted. While Wayne can heal broken legs, he doesn't have enough attribute to compress his healing to make it heal as his legs are being broken, without affecting his posture, like Miles can. The amount of attribute necessary for this, that is being wasted on diminishing returns is just astonishing - and Miles did it, because he didn't want to use stairs. If he can waste so much health on such useless triviality, it means that he can get that attribute back very fast, and he has so much more stored, that he didn't even feel this as a loss. This is something comparable to achieving mach 1 speed based on your calculations, but he didn't even care. Which means your calculations, while they are beautiful, are way off.

I am sorry but how can you say healing broken legs as they are being broken is comparable to achieving Mach 1 when we don't even know anything about how much stored healing is required to heal what?
We literally don't know, gold healing seems quite arbitrary to me at this point.

Edit: I mean gunshot wounds take few weeks to heal, yet Wayne heals them in minutes with few weeks of health stored, which on the face of it does not make sense (he would have to tap at such an increase factor that he should not have enough stores to do that). So clearly health behaves somewhat oddly when it comes to this.
That is why avoided talking about health, because frankly it does not make sense to me based on what we know of Feruchemy. Wayne should not be able to do what he does, based on our understanding.

The only explanation I can think off is that the usual loss in tapping large amounts does not happen for F-Gold, because the origin of the loss is that Feruchemy 'fights' against spiritweb to maintain the changes. However, since F-Gold heals by restoring physical body according to spiritual ideal, this 'fight' does not happen there. This would allow Wayne to heal gunshot wound in minutes with only few weeks of stored health, because the loss would not be there so he could tap nearly all of it at once.
This would then mean that Miles' feats are not as astonishing, because unlike the other Ferrings, F-Gold ferrings don't fight the spiritweb when tapping a lot at once, so there would not be a loss.

(And which calculations do you mean? There are two sets, and the one with loss is as firm as can be using the old WoB and limited information we have)

And we literally see Wayne heal from being splattered in short minutes, far more grievous wound (and using non-compounded goldmind). Sure he is slower, but he can heal about the same wounds, even if slower. Not to mention that Miles is possibly savant in F-Gold, further influencing his healing.

My whole point on Miles is two-fold

1. He clearly does not burn metalminds 'on-the-go', so the estimates from Tamriel have to be way off (either because the power released is far less, or because metalminds burn too fast for it to be practical, or most likely both).
2. Miles healing is de-facto not too far from what 2nd Oath Radiant showed (e.g. Kaladin healing his broken legs nearly instantly, Shallan immediately healing head would after removing obstructing object). 5th Ideal Radiant will heal better than 2nd Oath, so they will be even closer to that.

Quote

Yes, how I see it is that investiture is passing through you, but it isn't converted to an attribute, so you don't get an explosion of power. You're probably losing some investiture on whatever the "hack thing" is.

That could make sense, however then A-Duralumin is probably not usable? Since that magnifies the Investiture affecting you, not sure though

Edited March 5 by therunner

[alder24]

16 minutes ago, therunner said:

My point, is that as said Reverse Lashing can effect objects that are on ground, it is just more difficult (and the spoiler block also points out that objects airborne have it weaker).
Question is how weaker is the Connection while in air, and how exactly F-Duralumin works (i.e. the blank Connection he see would probably not help here).
I think it would possibly make it more difficult or impossible when standing on ground to be lashed, but while in air I don't think it would help as much as you state.

No idea, it's speculative again. I don't say that it would make it impossible to reverse lash an airborne Fullborn, just much harder than normal.

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

Additional question is, would Fullborn even know this particular detail of Windrunners power?

It's in Ars Arcanum, which is an in-world scientific paper, so it would be very likely he has that in his coppermind, or he prepared himself using the most renown and accessible documents.

19 minutes ago, therunner said:

Not Chromium that is external, Lashing infuses the person, so Fullborn would have to burn Aluminum.
Still doable for them though, but it would remove their powers for a moment (or a while, depending on how quickly Aluminum purges).

He would leech during a contact. While Stormlight is flowing to him from the Windrunner.

37 minutes ago, therunner said:

Where are you getting nanometers, for all we know the bullets flew through, and the entry would closed as the bullet left the body. That would also be consistent with the description in the books, and it would be healing ~miliseconds after the wound was caused.
Can't or won't because it wastes so much power?
That is my point, does he do things Ferring with a decade of storage could do once or twice, or is he completely out of their league?
And some things he does are still in the realm of Ferring.

Ok, not that fast, but still "in an eyeblink"

Spoiler

Miles’s masked head soon poked out between the cars. Waxillium fired a single quick shot, Pushing the bullet forward with Allomancy for extra speed against the howling wind. He nailed Miles right in the left eye socket. The man’s head snapped backward, and blood sprayed against the side of the railcar behind him. He stumbled, and Waxillium shot again, hitting him in the forehead.
The man reached up and ripped off his mask, revealing a hawk-like face with short black hair and prominent eyebrows. It was him. Miles. A lawkeeper, a man who should  have known better. A Twinborn Compounder of awesome power. His eye grew back, and the head wound was gone in an eyeblink.

Can't, because they don't have that much attribute, as most of the attribute is wasted. Regular bloodmaker might be able to heal in milliseconds once or twice, but consistently - no. They don't have health for that. There are things Wayne can't heal (wounds immediately lethal), while Miles just doesn't care:

Spoiler

“I’ll go after her right now,” Waxillium said. “Some men towed her outside, but they won’t have had time to...” He trailed off as he noticed a blur beside the far door. It stopped, and suddenly Wayne was lying on the ground, blood pooling around him. A bandit stood above him looking quite pleased with himself, holding a smoking pistol.
Damn! Waxillium thought, feeling a spike of fear. If Wayne had been hit in the head ... Steris or Wayne?

Spoiler

Noting Marasi’s confused look, Waxillium explained, “Normally a Feruchemist has to be sparing. It can take months to store up health or weight. I’ve been walking around at half weight since breaking us through the floor, trying to recover some of what I expended. I’ve barely filled my metalmind to a fraction of what I lost. It’ s even harder for Wayne.”
Wayne wiped his nose. “I’ll have to spend a few weeks in bed after this, feeling wretched. Otherwise, I’ll be unable to heal myself. Hell, I’m already storing as much as I can and still move about normally. By the end of the day, I’ll barely have enough to heal a scratch.”
“But Miles...” Marasi said.
"Near-infinite healing ability,” Waxillium said. “The man’s virtually immortal. I heard he once took a shotgun blast to the face point-blank and walked away from it."

And here is the amount of health needed to heal bullet wounds for Wayne (the second one was where he needed Wax help in a ballroom gunfight.

Spoiler

"That was the second bullet wound of the night,” Wayne said. “I can maybe heal one more.” Wayne stood as Waxillium pulled him to his feet. “Took me a good two weeks in bed to store up that much. Hope that girl of yours is worth it.”

All quotes from AoL.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I am sorry but how can you say healing broken legs as they are being broken is comparable to achieving Mach 1 when we don't even know anything about how much stored healing is required to heal what?

How long does a broken leg heal itself? Months (google: "Severe fractures will usually heal within 3 to 6 months". Very long. If he can compress that to basically nothing then how much is that? 6 months is 1.577e+7 seconds. If he can heal that in 1 second then how much faster is that? 10 mil times? There will be your compression. I'm too sleepy to do the math but he taps a lot to heal.

Spoiler

On a whim, he took hold of the banister and swung over, dropping to the floor some twenty feet below. For a brief moment, he knew that sense of freedom. Then he hit. One of his legs tried to break—he recognized the slight pop. But the bone’s fractures reknit as quickly as they broke, and so it never fully snapped, cracks opening on one side but resealing on the other.

 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Edit: I mean gunshot wounds take few weeks to heal, yet Wayne heals them in minutes with few weeks of health stored, which on the face of it does not make sense (he would have to tap at such an increase factor that he should not have enough stores to do that). So clearly health behaves somewhat oddly when it comes to this.
That is why avoided talking about health, because frankly it does not make sense to me based on what we know of Feruchemy. Wayne should not be able to do what he does, based on our understanding.

Yes, it's hard to estimate how much health it takes, that's true. But with this at least we have the only comparison on what regular Bloodmaker can do, and what gold compounder can. The values are unknown, but the effects are there, in the book. Wayne do care a lot about not being hit by a bullets as that's days of health, Miles just walks through a room filled with bullets, blows up dynamite in his hand, breaks his legs, and takes a shotgun blast into his face. The difference is just staggering. He never cares about running out of health.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

The only explanation I can think off is that the usual loss in tapping large amounts does not happen for F-Gold, because the origin of the loss is that Feruchemy 'fights' against spiritweb to maintain the changes. However, since F-Gold heals by restoring physical body according to spiritual ideal, this 'fight' does not happen there. This would allow Wayne to heal gunshot wound in minutes with only few weeks of stored health, because the loss would not be there so he could tap nearly all of it at once.

The lose has to happen. It's becuase of compressing attribute to shorter "time frame", so with health it is still there, But health is something more immeserable, so while you are storing it, you are storing your whole body's health, and while you tapping it, you focusing that health in a singular location, so it is most likely just far more stronger. Or something like that. 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

(And which calculations do you mean? There are two sets, and the one with loss is as firm as can be using the old WoB and limited information we have)

this whole post:

Spoiler

If I had 100 hours of 100% speed stored the time I would get out when tapping n-fold would be 100/n *5/6 * (3/5)^(n-1), so

1. Tapping at 10x speeds, to get total of 10+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*11 = 99 m/s), the time would 0.05 hours = 3 minutes (with original store being 100% (9m/s) speed for 100 hours)
2. Tapping at 20x speeds, to get total of 20+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*21 = 189 m/s), the time would be 0.00015 hours = 0.5 second
3. Tapping at 30x speeds, to get total of 30+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*31 = 279 m/s), the time would be 6*10^(-7) hours = 0.0022 second = 22 ms
4. Tapping at 40x speeds, to get total of 35+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*41 = 369 m/s, our first sonic speed!), the time would be 0.00001 second = 0.1 ms

What I want to tell is that Miles proves that this math is off. Either piece of metal can store much more attributes or can gain so much more from burning in a far shorter time period. Not that the compression, loss and time is off (is ok), just the capacity of metalminds or burning speed of compounding metal, as Miles has just so much more health than your math suggest.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

• He clearly does not burn metalminds 'on-the-go', so the estimates from Tamriel have to be way off (either because the power released is far less, or because metalminds burn too fast for it to be practical, or most likely both).

Coppermind: "Miles is not continuously burning his goldminds though. Rather, he spends some time burning them for a massive amount of health, and then stores a huge amount of health in his metalminds, which he wears as spikes that pierce his body all over. As they are inside of Miles, they are incapable of being Pushed or Pulled on by most Allomancers. This gives Miles access to a constant supply of nearly limitless health."

1 hour ago, therunner said:

1. Miles healing is de-facto not too far from what 2nd Oath Radiant showed (e.g. Kaladin healing his broken legs nearly instantly, Shallan immediately healing head would after removing obstructing object). 5th Ideal Radiant will heal better than 2nd Oath, so they will be even closer to that.

It's far closer to Radiant, than to Wayne. But Shallan faints after removing the bolt, Miles takes bullets and a shotgun in his head, and doesn't even stop walking. With a 5th ideal they might be on par.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

That could make sense, however then A-Duralumin is probably not usable? Since that magnifies the Investiture affecting you, not sure though

You could capture that investiture flowing to you before it turns into attribute and put it in metalminds, or burn small metalminds, and as it turns into attribute push it all into metalminds. There will be some loss, but much greater gain. With a little bit of zincmind burning (very small piece), it's possible. Again, zinc is just the best thing Fullborn has.

 

[therunner]

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

No idea, it's speculative again. I don't say that it would make it impossible to reverse lash an airborne Fullborn, just much harder than normal.

I can agree with harder than normal, but considering Windrunners lash Fused who are quite Invested, I think they would be used to overcoming difficulty.
Speculative though.

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It's in Ars Arcanum, which is an in-world scientific paper, so it would be very likely he has that in his coppermind, or he prepared himself using the most renown and accessible documents.

Alright, fair point.

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He would leech during a contact. While Stormlight is flowing to him from the Windrunner.

Lashing someone does not take too long, i.e. it is just about instantaneous, you touch them, and they go flying.

So I don't think Fullborn would have quick enough reactions (if we are considering the one without F-steel).

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Ok, not that fast, but still "in an eyeblink"

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Miles’s masked head soon poked out between the cars. Waxillium fired a single quick shot, Pushing the bullet forward with Allomancy for extra speed against the howling wind. He nailed Miles right in the left eye socket. The man’s head snapped backward, and blood sprayed against the side of the railcar behind him. He stumbled, and Waxillium shot again, hitting him in the forehead.
The man reached up and ripped off his mask, revealing a hawk-like face with short black hair and prominent eyebrows. It was him. Miles. A lawkeeper, a man who should  have known better. A Twinborn Compounder of awesome power. His eye grew back, and the head wound was gone in an eyeblink.

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Can't, because they don't have that much attribute, as most of the attribute is wasted. Regular bloodmaker might be able to heal in milliseconds once or twice, but consistently - no. They don't have health for that. There are things Wayne can't heal (wounds immediately lethal), while Miles just doesn't care:

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“I’ll go after her right now,” Waxillium said. “Some men towed her outside, but they won’t have had time to...” He trailed off as he noticed a blur beside the far door. It stopped, and suddenly Wayne was lying on the ground, blood pooling around him. A bandit stood above him looking quite pleased with himself, holding a smoking pistol.
Damn! Waxillium thought, feeling a spike of fear. If Wayne had been hit in the head ... Steris or Wayne?

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If we take that literally, then eyeblink is typically in range of 0.1-0.4 seconds, so lets's split the middle and say 0.25. So Miles heals the gunshot wounds not in miliseconds, but in quarter of a second. Still about 240x times as fast as Wayne, but not thousands of times faster.

So they can, but not consistently, as I have said.
On the quotes, the reason Wayne would be at risking from getting hit in the head while Miles would not be, is that Wayne is not tapping all the time, whereas Miles is. So Wayne rendered unconscious would not be able to heal, but Miles would, since the healing process would be already ongoing. Though Wayne could probably learn to tap when unconscious, just like you can burn pewter in coma.

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And here is the amount of health needed to heal bullet wounds for Wayne (the second one was where he needed Wax help in a ballroom gunfight.

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"That was the second bullet wound of the night,” Wayne said. “I can maybe heal one more.” Wayne stood as Waxillium pulled him to his feet. “Took me a good two weeks in bed to store up that much. Hope that girl of yours is worth it.”

All quotes from AoL.

This exactly shows how health behaves oddly, healing one gunshot wound takes weeks with modern medical care. And here Wayne uses up two weeks of healing to heal three gunshot wounds and in minutes? How does that make sense in the framework of Feruchemy? He would have to tap at far increased rate (on the order of 100 000x increase) and so should see horrible losses. Not to mention the original two week amount should not be enough even when tapped without loss over weeks.

And thank you for the quotes.

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How long does a broken leg heal itself? Months (google: "Severe fractures will usually heal within 3 to 6 months". Very long. If he can compress that to basically nothing then how much is that? 6 months is 1.577e+7 seconds. If he can heal that in 1 second then how much faster is that? 10 mil times? There will be your compression. I'm too sleepy to do the math but he taps a lot to heal.

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On a whim, he took hold of the banister and swung over, dropping to the floor some twenty feet below. For a brief moment, he knew that sense of freedom. Then he hit. One of his legs tried to break—he recognized the slight pop. But the bone’s fractures reknit as quickly as they broke, and so it never fully snapped, cracks opening on one side but resealing on the other.

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Yes, it's hard to estimate how much health it takes, that's true. But with this at least we have the only comparison on what regular Bloodmaker can do, and what gold compounder can. The values are unknown, but the effects are there, in the book. Wayne do care a lot about not being hit by a bullets as that's days of health, Miles just walks through a room filled with bullets, blows up dynamite in his hand, breaks his legs, and takes a shotgun blast into his face. The difference is just staggering. He never cares about running out of health.

I acknowledge that the compression is great, my point is that ordinary Bloodmaker already compresses health at huge rates.
So if Bloodmaker can easily compress attribute 100 000x times without any apparent loss, Gold Compounder compressing attribute even more does not seem as impressive.

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The lose has to happen. It's becuase of compressing attribute to shorter "time frame", so with health it is still there, But health is something more immeserable, so while you are storing it, you are storing your whole body's health, and while you tapping it, you focusing that health in a singular location, so it is most likely just far more stronger. Or something like that. 

Why does the loss have to happen? If the loss is due to difference between the physical self and the spiritual self, then healing would not lead to such difference no?

And focusing on small location would not be enough to make up the difference I think, healing gunshot wound would still be only about ~4000x times smaller volume to heal (and that is only if we consider only the pass-through wound, not all the mess shock wave does to organs), which still means Wayne would have to compress the attribute at least ~20x, and he does not even have enough healing for one gunshot wound (two weeks of stored health, and you cannot store 100% of attribute at a time).

Not to mention when tapping health the whole of body feels better (Miles example) and they don't seem to pick and choose what to heal (at least I am not aware of that).

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this whole post:

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If I had 100 hours of 100% speed stored the time I would get out when tapping n-fold would be 100/n *5/6 * (3/5)^(n-1), so

1. Tapping at 10x speeds, to get total of 10+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*11 = 99 m/s), the time would 0.05 hours = 3 minutes (with original store being 100% (9m/s) speed for 100 hours)
2. Tapping at 20x speeds, to get total of 20+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*21 = 189 m/s), the time would be 0.00015 hours = 0.5 second
3. Tapping at 30x speeds, to get total of 30+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*31 = 279 m/s), the time would be 6*10^(-7) hours = 0.0022 second = 22 ms
4. Tapping at 40x speeds, to get total of 35+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*41 = 369 m/s, our first sonic speed!), the time would be 0.00001 second = 0.1 ms

What I want to tell is that Miles proves that this math is off. Either piece of metal can store much more attributes or can gain so much more from burning in a far shorter time period. Not that the compression, loss and time is off (is ok), just the capacity of metalminds or burning speed of compounding metal, as Miles has just so much more health than your math suggest.

How does Miles prove that? We don't know how much compounded stores he has, nor how the loss behaves exactly, and there are reasons for why Gold would be outlier. Or if the healing can be focused, so fullbody health can be focused into just the wound, then healing e.g. broken legs is ultra-efficient, since the wound itself is 'small' (just a lines and surfaces).

On the other hand we see that larger than usual metalmind (bands of mourning) nearly runs out of speed just after few seconds of sonic effect, which would be about in line with the calculations on the loss.

At the very least, the compression, loss and time relations have to be order of magnitude correct, because otherwise even ordinary F-steel ferrings could reach sonic speeds (or nearly sonic speeds) in short bursts, and we just don't see that happen.

So to summarize:
Either F-gold does not have loss from compressing (so Miles' feats are less impressive), or F-gold can focus 'full-body' health to just the wounds directly for highly increased efficiency without need to compress (and so again Miles' feats are less impressive).
Do you agree with this, or do you see some option I have not considered?

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Coppermind: "Miles is not continuously burning his goldminds though. Rather, he spends some time burning them for a massive amount of health, and then stores a huge amount of health in his metalminds, which he wears as spikes that pierce his body all over. As they are inside of Miles, they are incapable of being Pushed or Pulled on by most Allomancers. This gives Miles access to a constant supply of nearly limitless health."

What is this supposed to prove?
I did say that Miles does not burn his goldminds, quote

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He clearly does not burn metalminds 'on-the-go', so the estimates from Tamriel have to be way off (either because the power released is far less, or because metalminds burn too fast for it to be practical, or most likely both).

So why are you quoting something that says the same thing?

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He clearly does not burn metalminds 'on-the-go', so the estimates from Tamriel have to be way off (either because the power released is far less, or because metalminds burn too fast for it to be practical, or most likely both).

Fair, though I will point out that the reason Miles probably does not faint is that he no longer feels pain from the wound thanks to years of getting hurt, whereas Shallan does.
Not sure if every Gold compounder would get to that point.

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You could capture that investiture flowing to you before it turns into attribute and put it in metalminds, or burn small metalminds, and as it turns into attribute push it all into metalminds. There will be some loss, but much greater gain. With a little bit of zincmind burning (very small piece), it's possible. Again, zinc is just the best thing Fullborn has.

Zinc does not improve reaction time, you just 'think' faster and can conceptualize and stuff. So I don't think it would help with timing.
Not to mention there does not seem to be any time window where the attribute is out, but is not yet 'attribute'. There has to be some, because that is how Ruin intercepts and modifies Coppermind memories (he cannot go to metalmind, and cannot modify minds, so it has to be 'in-transit'), however if it is in transit it is not in Fullborn, and so A-Duralumin would not do anything.

Edited March 6 by therunner

[alder24]

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Lashing someone does not take too long, i.e. it is just about instantaneous, you touch them, and they go flying.

So I don't think Fullborn would have quick enough reactions (if we are considering the one without F-steel).

Fullborn has zinc, he would be tapping it. And electrum, so he would see himself being affected by lashing. He would expect Windrunner and use leeching as he has far better reaction time than Windrunner.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

This exactly shows how health behaves oddly, healing one gunshot wound takes weeks with modern medical care. And here Wayne uses up two weeks of healing to heal three gunshot wounds and in minutes? How does that make sense in the framework of Feruchemy? He would have to tap at far increased rate (on the order of 100 000x increase) and so should see horrible losses. Not to mention the original two week amount should not be enough even when tapped without loss over weeks.

You are storing the health of your entire body, but using it only to heal a very small portion of your body. So you should also consider the volume ratio between wound and whole body for better comparison, requiring much less compression. That's how I've always understood F-healing.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Why does the loss have to happen? If the loss is due to difference between the physical self and the spiritual self, then healing would not lead to such difference no?

The loss is due to compression of attributes into a smaller time frame. It's the integral part of Feruchemy and tapping at higher than stored rate.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

And focusing on small location would not be enough to make up the difference I think, healing gunshot wound would still be only about ~4000x times smaller volume to heal (and that is only if we consider only the pass-through wound, not all the mess shock wave does to organs), which still means Wayne would have to compress the attribute at least ~20x, and he does not even have enough healing for one gunshot wound (two weeks of stored health, and you cannot store 100% of attribute at a time).

Not to mention when tapping health the whole of body feels better (Miles example) and they don't seem to pick and choose what to heal (at least I am not aware of that).

20x is much less than before, more reasonable. But I get it, healing and health is not a measurable property of your body. What does it do? Forcing cells to divide faster? Creating more antibodies and boosting the immune system? It's immeasurable, and this kind of allows Brandon to have more freedom with it, as there are no numbers associated with it. We have to accept this.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

How does Miles prove that? We don't know how much compounded stores he has, nor how the loss behaves exactly, and there are reasons for why Gold would be outlier. Or if the healing can be focused, so fullbody health can be focused into just the wound, then healing e.g. broken legs is ultra-efficient, since the wound itself is 'small' (just a lines and surfaces).

On the other hand we see that larger than usual metalmind (bands of mourning) nearly runs out of speed just after few seconds of sonic effect, which would be about in line with the calculations on the loss.

Miles has more than 30 metalminds, but we don't know how much investiture can metal store, hom much health is it. Healing broken bone is more than lines and surface, it's a displacement of bone, bone marrow spilling out, rupture blood vessels, and a lot of damage done to bone. 

With the Bands we also don't know how much speed is it, what makes up the Bands, if it was the speed attribute that was running out, not nicrosil ability to use F-steel (unlikely). We still don't know much, besides that Marasi used it to be faster than the speed of sound for a very short time, and it was nearly drained. We don't even know the size of the Bands.

What I wanted to point out, is because of how much health Miles is constantly using, for very trivial things, without any care for damage obtained (like why not use a knife to free himself from nets, but dynamite??), he has much more attribute stored, which obtaining is not an slightest obstacle for him. Your math on the other hand suggests obtaining more attribute for the compounder is an obstacle.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

So to summarize:
Either F-gold does not have loss from compressing (so Miles' feats are less impressive), or F-gold can focus 'full-body' health to just the wounds directly for highly increased efficiency without need to compress (and so again Miles' feats are less impressive).
Do you agree with this, or do you see some option I have not considered?

I do agree with this conclusion, but I support the second option, as the first one violates basic principles of Feruchemy, in my opinion. However, I do understand why you come up with this conclusion.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

What is this supposed to prove?
I did say that Miles does not burn his goldminds, quote

Proving that you are right by providing a direct quote. I'm not arguing here.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Zinc does not improve reaction time, you just 'think' faster and can conceptualize and stuff. So I don't think it would help with timing.

I believe it would, because tapping/storing is only a mental/spiritual activity, not a physical one. Zinc improves your mental speed, and therefore the ability to use metalminds with much greater reaction time. Reaction time is mostly tied to the brain's processing speed, and with metalminds, where activities are done on cognitive/spiritual level, a faster brain will help you with that. There aren't even any stimuli coming through your nervous system, the brain is all that matters.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Not to mention there does not seem to be any time window where the attribute is out, but is not yet 'attribute'. There has to be some, because that is how Ruin intercepts and modifies Coppermind memories (he cannot go to metalmind, and cannot modify minds, so it has to be 'in-transit'), however if it is in transit it is not in Fullborn, and so A-Duralumin would not do anything.

In case of compounding the investiture comes from Spiritual Realm as kinetic investiture, and when in your body becomes static(?)/attribute. So you want to catch that kinetic investiture right before it becomes an attribute, or right as it becomes an attribute and transfer it into metalminds. Because regular compounding can be stored in metalmind right away, duralumin boosted one also can be, but it would take much more practice and it would be tricky to do.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

7 hours ago, therunner said:

I can agree with harder than normal, but considering Windrunners lash Fused who are quite Invested, I think they would be used to overcoming difficulty.
Speculative though.

Alright, fair point.

Lashing someone does not take too long, i.e. it is just about instantaneous, you touch them, and they go flying.

So I don't think Fullborn would have quick enough reactions (if we are considering the one without F-steel).

If we take that literally, then eyeblink is typically in range of 0.1-0.4 seconds, so lets's split the middle and say 0.25. So Miles heals the gunshot wounds not in miliseconds, but in quarter of a second. Still about 240x times as fast as Wayne, but not thousands of times faster.

So they can, but not consistently, as I have said.
On the quotes, the reason Wayne would be at risking from getting hit in the head while Miles would not be, is that Wayne is not tapping all the time, whereas Miles is. So Wayne rendered unconscious would not be able to heal, but Miles would, since the healing process would be already ongoing. Though Wayne could probably learn to tap when unconscious, just like you can burn pewter in coma.

This exactly shows how health behaves oddly, healing one gunshot wound takes weeks with modern medical care. And here Wayne uses up two weeks of healing to heal three gunshot wounds and in minutes? How does that make sense in the framework of Feruchemy? He would have to tap at far increased rate (on the order of 100 000x increase) and so should see horrible losses. Not to mention the original two week amount should not be enough even when tapped without loss over weeks.

And thank you for the quotes.

I acknowledge that the compression is great, my point is that ordinary Bloodmaker already compresses health at huge rates.
So if Bloodmaker can easily compress attribute 100 000x times without any apparent loss, Gold Compounder compressing attribute even more does not seem as impressive.

Why does the loss have to happen? If the loss is due to difference between the physical self and the spiritual self, then healing would not lead to such difference no?

And focusing on small location would not be enough to make up the difference I think, healing gunshot wound would still be only about ~4000x times smaller volume to heal (and that is only if we consider only the pass-through wound, not all the mess shock wave does to organs), which still means Wayne would have to compress the attribute at least ~20x, and he does not even have enough healing for one gunshot wound (two weeks of stored health, and you cannot store 100% of attribute at a time).

Not to mention when tapping health the whole of body feels better (Miles example) and they don't seem to pick and choose what to heal (at least I am not aware of that).

How does Miles prove that? We don't know how much compounded stores he has, nor how the loss behaves exactly, and there are reasons for why Gold would be outlier. Or if the healing can be focused, so fullbody health can be focused into just the wound, then healing e.g. broken legs is ultra-efficient, since the wound itself is 'small' (just a lines and surfaces).

On the other hand we see that larger than usual metalmind (bands of mourning) nearly runs out of speed just after few seconds of sonic effect, which would be about in line with the calculations on the loss.

At the very least, the compression, loss and time relations have to be order of magnitude correct, because otherwise even ordinary F-steel ferrings could reach sonic speeds (or nearly sonic speeds) in short bursts, and we just don't see that happen.

So to summarize:
Either F-gold does not have loss from compressing (so Miles' feats are less impressive), or F-gold can focus 'full-body' health to just the wounds directly for highly increased efficiency without need to compress (and so again Miles' feats are less impressive).
Do you agree with this, or do you see some option I have not considered?

What is this supposed to prove?
I did say that Miles does not burn his goldminds, quote

So why are you quoting something that says the same thing?

Fair, though I will point out that the reason Miles probably does not faint is that he no longer feels pain from the wound thanks to years of getting hurt, whereas Shallan does.
Not sure if every Gold compounder would get to that point.

Zinc does not improve reaction time, you just 'think' faster and can conceptualize and stuff. So I don't think it would help with timing.
Not to mention there does not seem to be any time window where the attribute is out, but is not yet 'attribute'. There has to be some, because that is how Ruin intercepts and modifies Coppermind memories (he cannot go to metalmind, and cannot modify minds, so it has to be 'in-transit'), however if it is in transit it is not in Fullborn, and so A-Duralumin would not do anything.

I think alder24 hit the nail on the head with the healing portion of Brandon being able to be flexible with it.  

I see it as the spiritual self knows what needs to be healed and there is an ideal there.  Exactly how stormlight healing is described.  When one portion of the physical is not lined up to that then gold feruchemy will, like stormlight, work towards perfecting that spot first or at least bring it back to homeostasis with the body as a whole and then once the body is at the same level it will try to lift the entire whole up a notch from there.  

I have been fairly consistent in past threads that I envision total damage to be a factor.  If one is tapping gold or holding stormlight and a blade passes into their body it would require less healing to knit it up as the cut is happening than it would to regrow a head that gets poped like a zit.  Not all tissue heals as easily as other tissue.  Bone, as has been said, has a lot more going on for it than soft tissue damage.  

For any scene not specifically written from Wayne's POV it is also conceivable that he would use a bendalloy bubble to appear to heal faster.  We know that if he heals it slower he can heal more.  The man's kit is the second best option for fast regen in the mistborn world behind Miles himself.  

We know that attribute currently in a metalmind has to play a role in compounding.  I can't speak for sure on burn speed but if compounding compresses what attribute is available to be burned and multiplies it by 10 as we had described to us thus far in the books then the feats are all perfectly understandable.  You don't have any diminishing returns and you don't get penalized by tapping large portions at once.  You get the exact amount of attribute per the metal being burnt at that time and it is being multiplied.  You aren't draining it at all... the rest of the metalmind stays just as full per its current mass as it was per its beginning mass. 

Steel is the easiest one to calculate because it is the closest to actual numbers we have to use.  We know she moved Mach 1 for a few seconds.  We know that in order to move 37x faster than normal for just 2 seconds she would have to have approximately 60billion seconds of double time stored up. We know that there is no way a person could have stored that amount of speed without access to compounding and we know that with access to compounding applying the principle that attribute per gram will come out to 10x that attribute per gram burnt.  

Starting with the tiniest of metalminds and a small amount of storage and amping up to something 10x larger over and over again could easily compress this much attribute in whatever amount of time you need to burn the total amount of metal X that you want to compound. 

And they can do this with multiple metalminds at once.

What was 2 seconds of Mach 1 could have been 7 days of Mach 4 for Wax had he burnt it. 

You take that alone and it isn't surprising how Miles was able to do what he did with his plethora of metalminds... how many volleys from the firing squad did he instantly heal with just the metalminds that were hidden in his body they couldn't remove?  

 

A thing I have realized through this is actually how dangerous burning metalminds can be.  If you don't have a way to store all of that added investiture that is being wasted you could really hurt yourself.  I am not entirely convinced that the bands had every metal.  Had marasi really tapped everything as much as she could she would have BBQed those next to her as well as grown so large that she couldn't move (unless the creators of the bands took the time to separate just A pewter strength and compounded it alone so that they didn't end up with increasing mass).  

 

[Trusk'our]

I saw some posts comparing Wayne's and Mile's healing abilities (I'm sorry, there are just too many posts now for me to go through and find the specific ones) to determine a Fullborn's healing ability.

Miles was a F-gold Savant, which makes the process much more efficient than if he were to just Compound and tap health.

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Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

Oversleep (paraphrased)

Allomantic strength. There are stronger Allomancers, they can burn metals faster, right?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, they can also squeeze more power out of it. They can use it more efficiently.

Oversleep (paraphrased)

So there is some loss of power along the way? How do savants work into that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Savants can use it way more efficiently. They are more Connected to the Shard. Closer to Spiritual Realm.

It would be worth noting as well that Radiants have a very hard time becoming Savants (or at least gaining the same benefits of such a condition as a Compounder), so a Fullborn that chose that course would likely have yet another advantage.

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Oathbringer Leeds signing (Dec. 1, 2017)

Questioner 1

Do all Soulcasters risk turning into the element or is it only those using the device?

Brandon Sanderson

All Soulcasters have an affinity but the ones using the device are locked down much more than the Soulcasters who are Knights Radiant.

Questioner 1

So they are protected from being turned into--

Brandon Sanderson

Oh no they-- I wouldn't say protected... *clarification* Protected is the wrong term but that event, the savanthood and how it affects them and things like that is much less pronounced if you are a [Knight].

Questioner 1

Or is that counteracted by the healing as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Healing doesn't have to do with it because-- in cosmere terms there's nothing wrong with your body, your spirit is actually drifting, and so it's not hurting you physically by what's happening with the magics. So it's not the healing but if you have an active bond with a spren it takes a little different path. Let's just say, in simple terms--

Questioner 1

You are not losing body parts to smoke.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you are not losing body parts to smoke. 

Questioner 1

What timeframe does it happen for the normal Soulcasters then?

Brandon Sanderson

For normal Soulcasters? It takes-- I mean, you've seen it happening in the books. We are talking [about] a process of years even decades, depending on the person. It happens to some--

Questioner 2

Depending on how often they Soulcast?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on how often they Soulcast, and it depends on the person. 

 

[therunner]

22 hours ago, alder24 said:

Fullborn has zinc, he would be tapping it. And electrum, so he would see himself being affected by lashing. He would expect Windrunner and use leeching as he has far better reaction time than Windrunner.

But Zinc does not grant Improved reaction time.
Though Electrum is a good counter.

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You are storing the health of your entire body, but using it only to heal a very small portion of your body. So you should also consider the volume ratio between wound and whole body for better comparison, requiring much less compression. That's how I've always understood F-healing.

Fair, makes sense.

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The loss is due to compression of attributes into a smaller time frame. It's the integral part of Feruchemy and tapping at higher than stored rate.

But why does compression of attribute cause loss? My interpretation being that it is the increased difference between physical vs spiritual self, and some Investiture then goes towards fighting that strain.
Which is in line with the description of F-Atium and TLR.

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20x is much less than before, more reasonable. But I get it, healing and health is not a measurable property of your body. What does it do? Forcing cells to divide faster? Creating more antibodies and boosting the immune system? It's immeasurable, and this kind of allows Brandon to have more freedom with it, as there are no numbers associated with it. We have to accept this.

Exactly, it is immeasurable, so I don't think it can be used as good counterexample against the calculations I made earlier.
With health there is simply too much unknowns and too much freedom.

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Miles has more than 30 metalminds, but we don't know how much investiture can metal store, hom much health is it. Healing broken bone is more than lines and surface, it's a displacement of bone, bone marrow spilling out, rupture blood vessels, and a lot of damage done to bone. 

But as you yourself said and quoted, he is healing the bones as they are breaking, so at that point there is no displacement of bone, bone marrow spilling out, ruptured blood vessels.
Just the fractures within bones themselves, which are just lines and surfaces.

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What I wanted to point out, is because of how much health Miles is constantly using, for very trivial things, without any care for damage obtained (like why not use a knife to free himself from nets, but dynamite??), he has much more attribute stored, which obtaining is not an slightest obstacle for him. Your math on the other hand suggests obtaining more attribute for the compounder is an obstacle.

As you yourself said the health is not exactly measurable and concentration of health just to wounds can increase perceived efficiency.
So I don't think Miles is good counterexample to the math (and he is Savant to boot, being more efficient from that alone as @Trusk'our pointed out)

There is a ceiling on investiture Fullborn can have on person, that is indisputable.
The math suggests (if we trust it) that it is somewhere in the realm ~10 000 months of non-stop storing for each metal, which is 813 years worth of non-stop storing. Miles can conceivably have that much, and it would be more then enough for everything he does (especially combined with his savantism), considering Wayne heals 3 bullets wounds with 2 weeks worth of health (and those two weeks were not non-stop storing to boot).

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I do agree with this conclusion, but I support the second option, as the first one violates basic principles of Feruchemy, in my opinion. However, I do understand why you come up with this conclusion.

Alright fair enough
I lean towards the first option (or combination of the two) myself, since i see the compression loss principle in Feruchemy not as elementary, but as a result of tension between physical and spiritual selves.

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Proving that you are right by providing a direct quote. I'm not arguing here.

Ah...I have not considered that as an option
Apologies then.

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I believe it would, because tapping/storing is only a mental/spiritual activity, not a physical one. Zinc improves your mental speed, and therefore the ability to use metalminds with much greater reaction time. Reaction time is mostly tied to the brain's processing speed, and with metalminds, where activities are done on cognitive/spiritual level, a faster brain will help you with that. There aren't even any stimuli coming through your nervous system, the brain is all that matters.

Good argument, I concede he point.

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In case of compounding the investiture comes from Spiritual Realm as kinetic investiture, and when in your body becomes static(?)/attribute. So you want to catch that kinetic investiture right before it becomes an attribute, or right as it becomes an attribute and transfer it into metalminds. Because regular compounding can be stored in metalmind right away, duralumin boosted one also can be, but it would take much more practice and it would be tricky to do.

That is what I dispute though, I don't think there is a time where the investiture is kinetic and in the Compounder, but not yet attribute.

Edit: Reply to @Tamriel Wolfsbaine

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For any scene not specifically written from Wayne's POV it is also conceivable that he would use a bendalloy bubble to appear to heal faster.  We know that if he heals it slower he can heal more.  The man's kit is the second best option for fast regen in the mistborn world behind Miles himself.  

For the first 3 books Wayne has only very limited amount of bendalloy, and he needs it to be useful in fights.
So I don't think he would use it that way, he could but I don't think he does. Open option though.

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Starting with the tiniest of metalminds and a small amount of storage and amping up to something 10x larger over and over again could easily compress this much attribute in whatever amount of time you need to burn the total amount of metal X that you want to compound.

What was 2 seconds of Mach 1 could have been 7 days of Mach 4 for Wax had he burnt it. 

I don't think that is how it works though.
When you burn metalmind, you get the same amount of attribute, no matter how much Investiture is stored within the metalmind. That is basic principle of allomancy. So Wax could not have been at Mach 4, I think at most he could have been at ~100 m/s (like Bleeder) had he burned the BoM.

The difference is, that if there is only a little of attribute stored, then afterawhile the charged portion will run out, and you will be left with regular metal.
There is WoB on this (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98/#e860)

Edit: Sidenote, it is most likely impossible for Mistborn/Fullborn to burn Shardblades (identity problem), since they could not burn Nightblood.
Which makes sense, since Shardblade is literally body of a spren, so coded to their Identity.
Plate could be similarly restricted, since we know that deadplate (and plate of different Radiant) would block Surgebinding, whereas your own plate does not due to Identity.
 

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CthuluSpren (paraphrased)

Could Wax, Vin, or the Lord Ruler burn Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Firstly, you're assuming Nightblood is not Allomantically inert, but if it was, it would be like trying to burn someone else's metalmind.

Shadows of Self Nottingham UK signing (Oct. 22, 2015)

 

Edited March 7 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

don't think that is how it works though.
When you burn metalmind, you get the same amount of attribute, no matter how much Investiture is stored within the metalmind. That is basic principle of allomancy. So Wax could not have been at Mach 4, I think at most he could have been at ~100 m/s (like Bleeder) had he burned the BoM.

The difference is, that if there is only a little of attribute stored, then afterawhile the charged portion will run out, and you will be left with regular metal.
There is WoB on this (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98/#e860)

So does the spiritual realm feed nothing to compounding?  

So I found these WoBs as well. 

Spoiler

Questioner

When either Rashek or a Twinborn like Miles, how does he fuel his metalminds? Does he have to actually burn the gold in order to fuel them? Because, I feel like there's a paragraph in here where you kind of explained it, but I feel like you didn't actually say that you had to burn more gold in order to fill a metalmind. Is that how that works?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You can cross the streams and use one to power the other. But you are using the metal to power your Feruchemy instead of your own-- You're using, basically, the power that's coming through the metal...

Questioner

So you do have to be burning one the whole time? Sounds good, good to know. So you could just infinitely fill it, basically? As you burn, you just use it to fill it and it just gets-- and that's where that comes from?

Brandon Sanderson

Yep. You are burning a metalmind that you've already filled, right? That's the key there. You fill a metalmind, then you burn that, and what that does is it keys the metalmind to the Feruchemy instead. Which normally no one can do because you could-

Questioner

You can't do both.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. But if you can do both, you fill a metalmind, you burn that metalmind. What comes out of it is Feruchemical power instead, and you then are filling the metalmind with more.

So Allomancy is fueled by the power of the Shard. So what you're doing is you're powering your Feruchemy with the power of the Shard, instead of your own body. Using their Investiture instead of yours. Which is very dangerous.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

Spoiler

Questioner

If a coppermind was to be split in half, would the contents of it be destroyed? Or would there be, in the two separate halves, <of different contents?>?

Brandon Sanderson

You should err on the side of being destroyed, though not permanently, is what I would say on that. There are ways to approach it that wouldn't, but generally if you're ruining a metalmind, the Investiture will stay in it, and if you know what you're doing you can make use of that, but in most cases, it's not gonna fare well.

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

Honestly I don't know what to think. 

I feel like a lot contradicts itself.  If investiture is stored evenly in a metalmind which being able to split it in half suggests then a compounder would be better off storing for a second into a large metalmind and then enjoying compounding it by burning it for 10x attribute forever.  But to multiply something you have to have something else there.  So I feel like it is also wrong to suggest that a metalmind would waste its power when compounding it that is:

1. As full as you can possibly make it

2. Being powered by a shard in the form of drawing spiritual power due to compounding.  

I kind of feel like there is a ton of back tracking in your logic over the last couple of pages and I am trying to understand your thought process for this.  

Does it matter how full the metalmind is?

Does the spiritual realm multiply what is in the metalmind? 

Does having a more full metalmind to burn allow you to get more power from burning it or do you hit a point where you lose power by burning your metalmind?  

I feel like the answers to these have to work with eachother to make something that is consistent. 

If a metalmind is turned into feruchemy being powered by allomancy and your net gain is 10x your base of an attribute no matter what then it doesn't matter how much attribute is stored and you should store very little before burning it. 

If the amount of storage matters for your to get 10x the attribute (or whatever number it is) then you should be gaining more attribute based on what your stored and thus burning the bands would have multiplied Waxes speed by such an insane amount more than Marasis and for that much longer.  

I am getting lost in this idea that storage doesn't matter for power gain but it does matter when making the metalminds... very inconsistent.  

If compounding is net positive made out of a net neutral then how can you propose that the net gain is the same no matter how much attribute is stored?  As that would lead to a world where full metalminds come out to be a net negative which is totally inconsistent with the books from what I have seen. 

My whole point is just that compounding allows for totally Ludicrous feats that we have never seen (aside from healing) due to TLR not being shown to use any compounded power really.  

 

[alder24]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

But why does compression of attribute cause loss?

Brandon said that investiture is used to compress the rest of it. So it's doing some work, energy is required. 

4 hours ago, therunner said:

But as you yourself said and quoted, he is healing the bones as they are breaking, so at that point there is no displacement of bone, bone marrow spilling out, ruptured blood vessels.
Just the fractures within bones themselves, which are just lines and surfaces.

I don't know enough about the medical aspects of bone fracture, but I suspect that bones after fall break very fast, so if he can heal it as they are breaking, that requires a lot of compression and healing.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

As you yourself said the health is not exactly measurable and concentration of health just to wounds can increase perceived efficiency.
So I don't think Miles is good counterexample to the math

For now it's the only thing that we have, with which we can compare the Bands speed usage. It's not perfect, it's immeasurable, yet it is constantly noted that he has nearly infinite health, so it has to mean something with regards to compounding.

With your math I disagree only with starting assumptions (how much investiture fits into a metalminds, how long it takes to burn it), using Miles as an example.  

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Ah...I have not considered that as an option

Surprise!  

4 hours ago, therunner said:

That is what I dispute though, I don't think there is a time where the investiture is kinetic and in the Compounder, but not yet attribute.

That's fair, it's speculative after all.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

For the first 3 books Wayne has only very limited amount of bendalloy, and he needs it to be useful in fights.
So I don't think he would use it that way, he could but I don't think he does. Open option though.

I will provide an argument against this time - he does that, in a quote "3 bullet wounds for 2 weeks of storing" he was in a bubble with Wax, after getting shot and pretending to be dead, waiting for Wax to get to him, so he can heal faster in a bubble. But that is only in critical, life saving situations.

 

Edited March 7 by alder24

[therunner]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So does the spiritual realm feed nothing to compounding?  

It provides 10x the Investiture you stored originally, assuming you burn through the entire metalmind.

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If the amount of storage matters for your to get 10x the attribute (or whatever number it is) then you should be gaining more attribute based on what your stored and thus burning the bands would have multiplied Waxes speed by such an insane amount more than Marasis and for that much longer.  

You get 10x the amount of attribute in total, so if you stored e.g. one month of health, burned the full metalmind and stored all of it, you would be left with 10 months of health.

But the you don't get all of it at once, the speed at which metalmind burns controls how much of it you get out, and is the same no matter how invested the metalmind is.
More invested metalminds can simply  be burned longer before running out.

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If compounding is net positive made out of a net neutral then how can you propose that the net gain is the same no matter how much attribute is stored?  As that would lead to a world where full metalminds come out to be a net negative which is totally inconsistent with the books from what I have seen. 

I am not saying the net gain is the same, I am saying that the rate of gain is the same.
I.e. burn partially fueled metalmind, you get N amount of attribute per second, burn completely fueled metalmind you also get N amount of attribute per second.
However, the you can burn the partially fueled metalmind for a shorter time, before running out of the charged portion of the metal, so the net gain is lower due to that.

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My whole point is just that compounding allows for totally Ludicrous feats that we have never seen (aside from healing) due to TLR not being shown to use any compounded power really. 

The ludicrous feats are still possible, but for them you need to tap (and deal with loss of attribute due to compression) burning won't get you that far.

Edit: @alder24 response

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Brandon said that investiture is used to compress the rest of it. So it's doing some work, energy is required. 

Hmm, good point.

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I don't know enough about the medical aspects of bone fracture, but I suspect that bones after fall break very fast, so if he can heal it as they are breaking, that requires a lot of compression and healing.

Oh definitely. However it requires less healing in total (not accounting for compression) then if the bone got fully broken and ruptured skin.
So more loss from compression, but less needed healing then if Miles let the bones break fully.

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For now it's the only thing that we have, with which we can compare the Bands speed usage. It's not perfect, it's immeasurable, yet it is constantly noted that he has nearly infinite health, so it has to mean something with regards to compounding.

My point is that nearly infinite health is clear hyperbole, just from physical constraints.
And I think what he shows is consistent with someone who has hundreds of years worth of healing available, when compared to what Wayne can do with weeks and months stored.

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With your math I disagree only with starting assumptions (how much investiture fits into a metalminds, how long it takes to burn it), using Miles as an example.  

Ah alright.

On how much investiture fits into metalminds, that is just a guess to start off, I admit that.

I think the burn rate is probably far quicker  then I estimated, since the more the work allomancy does, the quicker metals burn.  WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/291/#e7820)
So e.g. F-Pewter should burn around 5x as fast as regular Pewter, if it would be providing 10x increase in strength.
So the time needed can be possibly reduced by a factor of ~5-10 on average? So Fullborn could get to those 813 years worth of storage for each metal not in ~3 years of non stop compounding, but in 4 months of non-stop compounding. So with breaks to live and to rest and stuff, I think it could be done in a year, or a bit quicker.

Would this be more in line with your expectations?
 

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Surprise!  

A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one

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I will provide an argument against this time - he does that, in a quote "3 bullet wounds for 2 weeks of storing" he was in a bubble with Wax, after getting shot and pretending to be dead, waiting for Wax to get to him, so he can heal faster in a bubble. But that is only in critical, life saving situations.

Can you give me chapter or page?
So he was in bubble while waiting for Wax to come close to him? That would mean he could compress less by a factor of 10-15x, which is useful.

I need to go through the books for incident where Wayne heals and stores

Edited March 7 by therunner

[alder24]

15 minutes ago, therunner said:

Ah alright.

On how much investiture fits into metalminds, that is just a guess to start off, I admit that.

I think the burn rate is probably far quicker  then I estimated, since the more the work allomancy does, the quicker metals burn.  WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/291/#e7820)
So e.g. F-Pewter should burn around 5x as fast as regular Pewter, if it would be providing 10x increase in strength.
So the time needed can be possibly reduced by a factor of ~5-10 on average? So Fullborn could get to those 813 years worth of storage for each metal not in ~3 years of non stop compounding, but in 4 months of non-stop compounding. So with breaks to live and to rest and stuff, I think it could be done in a year, or a bit quicker.

Would this be more in line with your expectations?

That looks far better and checks out with Miles. So yes, I have no further complaints.

16 minutes ago, therunner said:

Can you give me chapter or page?
So he was in bubble while waiting for Wax to come close to him? That would mean he could compress less by a factor of 10-15x, which is useful.

AoL ch 6, the ballroom fight. Wayne was fighting with a bandit, got shot in the guts, started pretending to be dead by dropping the bubble, that bandit stayed above him, Wax noticed, steel pushed to them, killed that bandit with 6 bullets, and Wayne creates a bubble around them, and started healing his wound only then. Search for "chandeliers".