Fullborn V.S. 5th Ideal Windrunners

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

36 minutes ago, therunner said:

It provides 10x the Investiture you stored originally, assuming you burn through the entire metalmind.
 

You get 10x the amount of attribute in total, so if you stored e.g. one month of health, burned the full metalmind and stored all of it, you would be left with 10 months of health.

But the you don't get all of it at once, the speed at which metalmind burns controls how much of it you get out, and is the same no matter how invested the metalmind is.
More invested metalminds can simply  be burned longer before running out.

I am not saying the net gain is the same, I am saying that the rate of gain is the same.
I.e. burn partially fueled metalmind, you get N amount of attribute per second, burn completely fueled metalmind you also get N amount of attribute per second.
However, the you can burn the partially fueled metalmind for a shorter time, before running out of the charged portion of the metal, so the net gain is lower due to that.

So are there any WoBs to support that a metalmind burns faster with less attribute stored?  

I think the idea you are proposing is that, instead of Wax being able to burn a gram of steel an hour, because the bands were so insanely full he would take days and days to burn that same gram of steel?  

Using 2 seconds at Mach 1 in 188 grams of steel we still end up with 60billion seconds of 200% physical speed... 

And when compounding it becomes 600billion seconds worth of speed that the compounder has access to.  Do we have anything to support a timetable that would lessen the power of the bands for someone like Wax?  

That is still nearly 3.2 billion seconds of double time per gram of steel.  37000 days at 200% movement per gram off steel in the bands (if we assume 24cc of steel).  And when you burn it you suffer no diminishing returns from what we know.  

I guess I am looking for something that hints to a compounder being limited to just 10-20x enhancement at any one time.  As far as I know the only math we have is Miles or Sazed (I honestly can't remember which one) mentioning that you get 10x what you put in when you burn it.  I can't think of a mention of how fast or slow you are forced to burn it and that would work completely contrary to everything we have seen from allomancy in the past.  

If the metal burns the same as with allomancy then there is a low burn and a normal burn and a flare rate all applicable.  We also have never seen purity levels of a metal slow or speed up burn rate either by my memory. If the amount stored were simply making the metal more pure in essence then it still wouldn't change your burn rates you would just draw that much more.  

I think this concept truly described and explains Miles feats better than any other options.  A shotgun goes off in your face and you heal it as the shot passes through your flesh.  This is healing beyond anything we have seen in the cosmere.  

The difference between having an arrow slice its way through your head is magnitudes less trauma than a shotgun blast or any bullet passing through for that matter. 

It seems wrong when you apply it to steel and the true danger of a speedster like that but for gold it makes perfect sense that it works this way.  But this discussion has nothing to do with fairness just like it doesn't when the answer is soulcast aluminum around your head while hiding in the cognitive realm.  My point is purely based on what we have seen in the books... compounding gives access to so much power that the compounder can waste and waste and never worry about running out.  

To suggest anything less I really need to see ideas of a cap.  "You are only allowed to gain 20x your base in any attribute when compounding".  I don't think it exists.  

If compounding worked the way you describe it then Miles 30+ full metalminds would have been able to be burnt nonstop because they would take so long to burn as they were being actively hampered by shards to limit his healing that we wouldn't have seen his feats. 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

59 minutes ago, therunner said:

Unconscious burning of regular metal is only when you are trying to receive the desired effect, so there is still Intent there.
Only pewter has been shown to be burned when unconscious, and that was only when grievously wounded

For the metalminds, we see that Miles has to choose which attribute to get when burning the metalmind (If i recall correctly) so concious Intent is necessary.

I would be careful when considering BoM, there is still a lot we don't know about them (e.g. why the users are trailing Mists, when no one else outside of Vin did that).

And as stated, they contain for example only seconds of supersonic speeds, even when some of that movement was only hands and not full body (which would presumably consume faster).

EDIT:

To use F-steel to speed up compounding process, you first need to store or compounded that amount of steel, so you actually cant do that. It would end up taking more time than just compounding the single metal on its own

And on using A-duralumin to speed up the process, I think that it is simply not feasible to handle, even for Fullborn.
You can manage the rate at which you store attribute, but the sudden influx of massive amount of attribute at once would be too much, since the attribute still passes through Fullborn. So inevitably the Fullborn would for some amount of time embody that attribute, which would be deadly to them for a lot of the occurrences. Plus who knows what such influx of attribute would do to their spiritweb.
And it would require great coordination on the end of Fullborn.

And I don't understand the part with A-Nicrosil, could you explain it again, step by step?

OK, but why can't someone multitask? Isn't that what you were saying?

I'm pretty sure he had to choose which metal to burn, invested or non-invested. I'm fairly certain you cannot get the regular effect out of a metalmind until you burn out the attribute.

Right, but in about 24cc s of metal. The amount of investiture that can fit in metal doesn't change based on fuerochemical power. Also, variablity in fuerochemical power is shown in decay rate for compression and tapping at the same rate.

Actually, you only need to keep a small portion of the speed that you are currently compounding.

There is a WoB saying there is decay from moving an attribute from one metalmind to another, but no attribute will be expressed, and the same should happen with compounding, even with durilium. I can't find it, but Ive spent awhile looking for it.

22 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think the math, while underselling feruchemy and compounding, is a large point in favor of allomancy stores being far more capable and long lasting than previously speculated... and also makes duralumin pushes and pewter / duralumin slaps far more dangerous if you simply have a larger store of metal in your tank.  

As for the bands of mourning, if you placed the bands inside of your body and burnt them you would still have nearly 10x the amount of attribute usage that we saw in BoM.  How much of each attribute do you really have to use to make yourself a threat to a radiant?  Even taking away steel speed (should we take away a surge?) We would end up with a person strong enough to move a body that weighs at least the same amount as plate and throwing hands as well as having steel / iron a to play with that is going to pack more of a punch than your typical 100-200lb mistborn. 

The bands increased Wax's steel allomancy to the point of seeing the entire world at the spiritual / steel sight level.  What would nicrosil do to pewter allomancy?  You may take away F steel but you still have a person armed nicrosil boosted abilities and the ability to think super duper fast. The train station fight from limitless comes to mind. You are going to see and be able to react to every telegraphed move and again... pewter actually enhances your speed (even 20% faster than a normal human is more than what kaladin had in his fight against the shardbearer).  Add in electrum to show you the no go options of your future and it is the poor man's atium even more so.  Spook likened his tin senses to feel the movements of his opponents to atium... your fullborn doesn't have to be a tin savant to tap so much feeling/ proprioception to pull these feats off combined with thinking at limitless speeds.  

This is because the attribute is evenly distributed throughout the metalmind.  If you have 1hr moving at double speed and it packed inside of a shaving of metal that takes 1 minute to burn then you can transfer that to a metalmind 10x that size in 1 minute.  If you have 1hr moving at double speed and it is stored in a ring that will take 12 hrs to burn then even on a loop of storing what is burning you have lost a ton of efficiency.  

This is strictly the fastest method to have the highest concentration metalminds possible because compounding doesn't work on tapping at all.  It works based on your allomantic burn rates.  The smaller the metalmind > the faster you can burn it > the more power you get from it.

Same principle when diluting medications. If I give 1ml of epinephrine that doesn't tell me much at all... it could be 1ml that does nothing at all because it is so diluted (store a few minutes of an attribute into a large ring and burn the whole ring only netting you 10x what you put into it over the half a day you are burning) or that 1ml of epi could straight up kill the person because it was not diluted at all (a metalmind that has hours of an attribute but small enough to burn off in just a couple of minutes netting you 10x that attribute in just a few minutes).  

I don't believe that burning metalminds leads to the same diminishing returns as tapping them as you are using the spiritual realm to directly fuel that attribute at that rate.  

 

Another thought would be... do compounders gain more attribute if they are more powerful with a specific allomancy metal?  Miles estimated he got 10x more from burning than tapping the same amount and he is 1300 years separated from lerasium.  Would a lerasium mistborn draw more attributes from the spiritual realm while burning a metalmind in the same way that Elend was simply a stronger mistborn than Vin in every way minus practice and development?  If this is the case then your nicrosil compounding actually makes storing and compounding faster and better.  

Elend was able to burn metals faster and got more benefit from them per ounce than Vin. He would be able to burn his metalminds faster and the spiritual realm would make burning them more potent.  The bands already showed us that you can go beyond normal allomantic strength through compounding and if allomantic strength allows you to burn more efficiently and faster then fullborn gets even more appealing. 

The mistborn has a large amount of survivability without using fuerochemistry, so a very viable strategy is wait for the radiant to go dun. 

Thing is, the bands of mourning were tiny. The compounding one can get from such small material is incredible, I estimate about 1/4 of the investiture that can be stored in metal can be gotten through compounding and storing the attribute back into the metal as you burn it.

Fullborn may as well have atium even when he doesn't, nor does he have atium shadows in a tinmind.

Compounding doesn't work this way. As the metal is burned, the investiture is pulled out. If the metalmind isn't full, then eventually it will revert to being non-invested, and the allomantic effect. The fullness doesn't matter, only the amount of investiture. 1 second of half strength will get you ten seconds of half strength after burning for 1 second in a metal flake and in a bead. The strikethrough is mine, as I am addressing multiple paragraphs, and don't want to delete them like most other times.

I don't mean diminishing returns as in compression rates. There is a WoB that I have failed to find since I read it that says that one can move an attribute from one metalmind to another without exhibiting any of the attribute, but there is some loss. I think it works the same when you compound and immediately chuck it into a metalmind.

Maybe, and Probably. It works like that in the MAG, but we don't know exactly how quality differences in allomancy work, and how those interact with fueorchemistry. Is the extra investiture based on metal or effect?

It would speed them up though, because you both get more investiture and can burn faster.

2 minutes ago, therunner said:

You would have 10x of what is stored sure, but how quickly can you access it when burning the metalmind?
Metals have burn and flare (unless the Mistborn is very proficient with given metal), so you would only get two possible rates. And from what Miles is saying, Compounding might be limited to only burn which gives you 10x in the amount. Since 'base setting' of Feruchemy (one without lost) is doubling of the attribute (i.e. you get linearly what you put in), then burning even Bands of Mourning would just get you to 20x increase in all attributes, but you could not get more.

So tapping is necessary for the more extreme feats.

Atium is Era 1 only metal, so either Fullborn gets access to Atium but only 10 metals, or full 16 metals but no Atium.

To fully discuss this would require TLM spoilers, so I'd avoid it.

From theoretical standpoint, either with compounded Steel wins. Without compounded steel, both Feruchemist and Mistborn require at minimum C-Gold and C-Pewter to even stand a chance of survival.

I don't believe that either, however burning a metalmind gives you set amount of attribute which apparently is 10x fold. So it does not allow for the more extreme feats, e.g. moving at even just Mach 1 (which requires tapping at minimum for 40x of maximum speed).
However it is useful from the efficiency standpoint.

There is loss even at base rate, as investiture is used at some point in the process. Also, durilium bypasses it. D-burning is more efficient than D-tapping, which is more efficient than tapping. Burning itself is a different matter, because there is less finesse, but it is useful. Do note I likely meant D-burning, not regular burning, but it's been a fat minute.

What about a hemalurgic F-tin spike with an associated tinmind with atium shadows?

I've read TLM, but I don't know what spoilers your talking about. Would you spoiler box the sections for me?

I disagree. A mistborn with C-Gold can run away and/or hide and/or survive long enough for the radiant to dun, and then fight them as someone with live plate and live blade vs a mistborn with C-G

 

Time for the next volley of replies:

On 3/3/2023 at 9:41 PM, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah, there's no way. Diminishing returns means eating a battleship sized metalmind probably wouldn’t be enough for those...

I think a human becoming a black hole would have to mass dozens of times more than the entire Earth.

I think diminishing returns means the upper *practical* limit is a lot more reasonable than often suggested. And we haven't seen much of live Plate. Dead Shardplate has the strength of "many men", and the size of Dalinar's hammer compared to RL warhammers suggests something like 20-30x strength. So I'd argue that Shardplate is probably at least as strong as Sazed at massive F-pewter levels at the end of WoA, or the largest koloss.

Diminishing returns goes away with Durilium - it provides the investiture required for compression. That is why the upper limit is so outragous - Practically, one can a ton of attribute at once, and because of the way it only pulles from the metalmind(s) your tapping, you can use many metalminds to provide duration to your D-tapping. Durilium is one of the best allomantic metals for the combat fuerochemical metals. Benadally, Gold, and Durilium are the 3 best allomantic metals for a bloodmaker as far as speed-healing goes.

On 3/5/2023 at 0:44 AM, therunner said:

Also, Windrunner can use Reverse Lashings much more easily now, if Fullborn breaks contact with ground they would get captured (cannot strengthen Connection to ground if the ground is not Connected to you).

Could you? Sure leg you would see it buckling, but not now why it happened. However, off hand you might not notice getting cut. Plus using Electrum like this requires either a lot of practice, or non-stop usage of Zinc.

And I don't think practice would let you see steel lines of Shardblade, it is not question of skill but of Investiture levels and power. Hemalurgic spikes have very low levels of Investiture, even compared  to metalminds, much less Shardblades. Steelsight can be learned, but what you see with it is affected by your power (i.e. regular Inquisitor steelsight, vs BoM granted Steelsight Wax exhibited).

However, I have question, Ishar Connected Windrunners strongly to ground, causing Stormlight to run out of their bodies. Could it be that if Fullborn tapped too much Connection to ground, their tapped stores would go to ground too? If so, this would limit applicability of this strategy.

I don't think it is actually feasible (compounding fast with A-Duralumin) for one reason, Brandon often limits the magic system if it break things 'too much'.
I.e. up until TLM these conversations (vs battles) were dominated by Scadrial using hemalurgy and medallions to create armies of Compounders, and everyone questioned how can Scadrial not just dominate everyone in Era 4. After TLM it turns out compounding with Hemalurgy and medallions is not possible.

Similarly, I think letting A-Duralumin bypass one of the only two limitations Fullborn has (time and access to a lot of metal) will simply not be possible for similar reason.

Also remember that the attribute will still pass through Fullborn, which would probably do stuff to their spiritweb if done in those quantities.
 

The contact strengthens the Connection, I assume by several orders of magnitude, but tapping can augment it enough that you are still more connected than a fused on the ground.

I personally believe you would stop seeing the part that is severed. If not, it is a lot more difficult to notice, and I would agree with the others (not to gut wounds, but yes to fingers) especially since one would make sure to have those things visible in the shadow.

I'm pretty sure one can reach that with just practice, but more importantly, tin compounding. You can store steelsight and ironsight in a tinmind, and compounding it will make it much stronger. You can totally see shards with it, and probably souls and axi as well.

I actually think it might be useful them, allowing them to burn/fill/tap metals that haven't been mined.

I think basic is possible, but the complex way I was discussing probably requires practice. Also, TLM spoiler should be in a box, even though it has no specifics (I don't think specifics would eb allowed to be in a box.

On 3/5/2023 at 9:55 AM, therunner said:

We have some idea, there is one WoB on the possible rate of diminishing returns, I used it earlier. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126)
Additionally, we don't know why Marasi and Wax were leaking Mists, when even Miles or TLR never did.

This assumes that burn rate for the regular metal, and for the metalmind is the same, which we don't actually know.
In fact there is WoB that the burn rate is proportional to power unleashed (more power, faster burn rate), so I would assume Steelmind would burn faster then regular steel.

So I would assume that steelmind burns faster, but we don't have a good way to establish base rate of attribute it provides.

Additionally, there does not seem to be difference between power of burning just partially charged metalmind, and fully charged metalmind (you just burn out the charged part of metal, and afterwards it is just metal), which in your calculation should make a difference.

I still think those were numbers he pulled out of thin air. Also, will we ever know? This seems like something that might not be explained until after the cosmere is finished.

I would actually assume it burns slower - pewter is about as fast as steel and iron, but does more than F-Pewter. And F-pewter makes matter, so it should be more than F-steel.

This is how it works.

As I've said earlier in this very long post, a fullborn would make it noticeable, even if it is just a negative control. Keep in mind that electrum does allow for back-talk - in sign language.

4 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I have been fairly consistent in past threads that I envision total damage to be a factor.  If one is tapping gold or holding stormlight and a blade passes into their body it would require less healing to knit it up as the cut is happening than it would to regrow a head that gets poped like a zit.  Not all tissue heals as easily as other tissue.  Bone, as has been said, has a lot more going on for it than soft tissue damage.  

For any scene not specifically written from Wayne's POV it is also conceivable that he would use a bendalloy bubble to appear to heal faster.  We know that if he heals it slower he can heal more.  The man's kit is the second best option for fast regen in the mistborn world behind Miles himself.  

We know that attribute currently in a metalmind has to play a role in compounding.  I can't speak for sure on burn speed but if compounding compresses what attribute is available to be burned and multiplies it by 10 as we had described to us thus far in the books then the feats are all perfectly understandable.  You don't have any diminishing returns and you don't get penalized by tapping large portions at once.  You get the exact amount of attribute per the metal being burnt at that time and it is being multiplied.  You aren't draining it at all... the rest of the metalmind stays just as full per its current mass as it was per its beginning mass. 

Steel is the easiest one to calculate because it is the closest to actual numbers we have to use.  We know she moved Mach 1 for a few seconds.  We know that in order to move 37x faster than normal for just 2 seconds she would have to have approximately 60billion seconds of double time stored up. We know that there is no way a person could have stored that amount of speed without access to compounding and we know that with access to compounding applying the principle that attribute per gram will come out to 10x that attribute per gram burnt.  

Starting with the tiniest of metalminds and a small amount of storage and amping up to something 10x larger over and over again could easily compress this much attribute in whatever amount of time you need to burn the total amount of metal X that you want to compound. 

And they can do this with multiple metalminds at once.

 

A thing I have realized through this is actually how dangerous burning metalminds can be.  If you don't have a way to store all of that added investiture that is being wasted you could really hurt yourself.  I am not entirely convinced that the bands had every metal.  Had marasi really tapped everything as much as she could she would have BBQed those next to her as well as grown so large that she couldn't move (unless the creators of the bands took the time to separate just A pewter strength and compounded it alone so that they didn't end up with increasing mass).  

 

I like that, haddent thought of it that way.

Good point. Definitely top 3 allomantic metals for speed healing as a bloodmaker.

This isn't how it works, it drains it a specific rate as the metal is consumed, and a metalmind that isn't full will revert to the allomantic effect, if the attribute isn't moved back into the metalmind per the WoB. And it is in moving it to the metalmind where the (very theoretical) loss is coming from.

I don't see what the multiple metalminds means, do you mean types of metals or metalminds of a single metal? The latter doesn't do anything AFAIK, metals only burn so fast. I don't know what you would be trying to get if the former.

She may not have been touching all the strands, but it's a good point.

 

Time for the third volley:

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So does the spiritual realm feed nothing to compounding?  

So I found these WoBs as well. 

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Questioner

When either Rashek or a Twinborn like Miles, how does he fuel his metalminds? Does he have to actually burn the gold in order to fuel them? Because, I feel like there's a paragraph in here where you kind of explained it, but I feel like you didn't actually say that you had to burn more gold in order to fill a metalmind. Is that how that works?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You can cross the streams and use one to power the other. But you are using the metal to power your Feruchemy instead of your own-- You're using, basically, the power that's coming through the metal...

Questioner

So you do have to be burning one the whole time? Sounds good, good to know. So you could just infinitely fill it, basically? As you burn, you just use it to fill it and it just gets-- and that's where that comes from?

Brandon Sanderson

Yep. You are burning a metalmind that you've already filled, right? That's the key there. You fill a metalmind, then you burn that, and what that does is it keys the metalmind to the Feruchemy instead. Which normally no one can do because you could-

Questioner

You can't do both.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. But if you can do both, you fill a metalmind, you burn that metalmind. What comes out of it is Feruchemical power instead, and you then are filling the metalmind with more.

So Allomancy is fueled by the power of the Shard. So what you're doing is you're powering your Feruchemy with the power of the Shard, instead of your own body. Using their Investiture instead of yours. Which is very dangerous.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

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Questioner

If a coppermind was to be split in half, would the contents of it be destroyed? Or would there be, in the two separate halves, <of different contents?>?

Brandon Sanderson

You should err on the side of being destroyed, though not permanently, is what I would say on that. There are ways to approach it that wouldn't, but generally if you're ruining a metalmind, the Investiture will stay in it, and if you know what you're doing you can make use of that, but in most cases, it's not gonna fare well.

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

Honestly I don't know what to think. 

I feel like a lot contradicts itself.  If investiture is stored evenly in a metalmind which being able to split it in half suggests then a compounder would be better off storing for a second into a large metalmind and then enjoying compounding it by burning it for 10x attribute forever.  But to multiply something you have to have something else there.  So I feel like it is also wrong to suggest that a metalmind would waste its power when compounding it that is:

1. As full as you can possibly make it

2. Being powered by a shard in the form of drawing spiritual power due to compounding.  

I kind of feel like there is a ton of back tracking in your logic over the last couple of pages and I am trying to understand your thought process for this.  

Does it matter how full the metalmind is?

Does the spiritual realm multiply what is in the metalmind? 

Does having a more full metalmind to burn allow you to get more power from burning it or do you hit a point where you lose power by burning your metalmind?  

I feel like the answers to these have to work with eachother to make something that is consistent. 

If a metalmind is turned into feruchemy being powered by allomancy and your net gain is 10x your base of an attribute no matter what then it doesn't matter how much attribute is stored and you should store very little before burning it. 

If the amount of storage matters for your to get 10x the attribute (or whatever number it is) then you should be gaining more attribute based on what your stored and thus burning the bands would have multiplied Waxes speed by such an insane amount more than Marasis and for that much longer.  

I am getting lost in this idea that storage doesn't matter for power gain but it does matter when making the metalminds... very inconsistent.  

If compounding is net positive made out of a net neutral then how can you propose that the net gain is the same no matter how much attribute is stored?  As that would lead to a world where full metalminds come out to be a net negative which is totally inconsistent with the books from what I have seen. 

My whole point is just that compounding allows for totally Ludicrous feats that we have never seen (aside from healing) due to TLR not being shown to use any compounded power really.  

 

33 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So are there any WoBs to support that a metalmind burns faster with less attribute stored?  

I think the idea you are proposing is that, instead of Wax being able to burn a gram of steel an hour, because the bands were so insanely full he would take days and days to burn that same gram of steel?  

Using 2 seconds at Mach 1 in 188 grams of steel we still end up with 60billion seconds of 200% physical speed... 

And when compounding it becomes 600billion seconds worth of speed that the compounder has access to.  Do we have anything to support a timetable that would lessen the power of the bands for someone like Wax?  

That is still nearly 3.2 billion seconds of double time per gram of steel.  37000 days at 200% movement per gram off steel in the bands (if we assume 24cc of steel).  And when you burn it you suffer no diminishing returns from what we know.  

I guess I am looking for something that hints to a compounder being limited to just 10-20x enhancement at any one time.  As far as I know the only math we have is Miles or Sazed (I honestly can't remember which one) mentioning that you get 10x what you put in when you burn it.  I can't think of a mention of how fast or slow you are forced to burn it and that would work completely contrary to everything we have seen from allomancy in the past.  

If the metal burns the same as with allomancy then there is a low burn and a normal burn and a flare rate all applicable.  We also have never seen purity levels of a metal slow or speed up burn rate either by my memory. If the amount stored were simply making the metal more pure in essence then it still wouldn't change your burn rates you would just draw that much more.  

I think this concept truly described and explains Miles feats better than any other options.  A shotgun goes off in your face and you heal it as the shot passes through your flesh.  This is healing beyond anything we have seen in the cosmere.  

The difference between having an arrow slice its way through your head is magnitudes less trauma than a shotgun blast or any bullet passing through for that matter. 

It seems wrong when you apply it to steel and the true danger of a speedster like that but for gold it makes perfect sense that it works this way.  But this discussion has nothing to do with fairness just like it doesn't when the answer is soulcast aluminum around your head while hiding in the cognitive realm.  My point is purely based on what we have seen in the books... compounding gives access to so much power that the compounder can waste and waste and never worry about running out.  

To suggest anything less I really need to see ideas of a cap.  "You are only allowed to gain 20x your base in any attribute when compounding".  I don't think it exists.  

If compounding worked the way you describe it then Miles 30+ full metalminds would have been able to be burnt nonstop because they would take so long to burn as they were being actively hampered by shards to limit his healing that we wouldn't have seen his feats. 

I'm not addressing these in order.

When compounding, you burn the metal at a rate of Y grams per second, and taps it at rate X per Y grams. The amount of investiture is what matters when compounding, not % fill. The investiture is evenly distributed, but the investiture is being pulled out. Also, it fuels 9* the attribute, as you get 10* back after putting in 1*. Also, A-pewter provides a multitude of effects, while F-Pewter provides 2, strength and mass. We don't know the rate of conversion for investiture to mass, but I dought that 1 unit of investiture provides more A-pewter strength than F-pewter strength.

The WoBs say that burn rate is based off of work, so if we think that 9* fuerochemical traits takes more investiture, than the burn rate will be faster. IF we think it's less work, then it would burn slower.

Less pure metals have weekened effects, by pulling less investiture out. I suspect that one couldn't burn it at different rates, but to get the effects of a low burn, one might need a regular, or even flared.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

16 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

OK, but why can't someone multitask? Isn't that what you were saying?

I'm pretty sure he had to choose which metal to burn, invested or non-invested. I'm fairly certain you cannot get the regular effect out of a metalmind until you burn out the attribute.

Right, but in about 24cc s of metal. The amount of investiture that can fit in metal doesn't change based on fuerochemical power. Also, variablity in fuerochemical power is shown in decay rate for compression and tapping at the same rate.

Actually, you only need to keep a small portion of the speed that you are currently compounding.

There is a WoB saying there is decay from moving an attribute from one metalmind to another, but no attribute will be expressed, and the same should happen with compounding, even with durilium. I can't find it, but Ive spent awhile looking for it.

The mistborn has a large amount of survivability without using fuerochemistry, so a very viable strategy is wait for the radiant to go dun. 

Thing is, the bands of mourning were tiny. The compounding one can get from such small material is incredible, I estimate about 1/4 of the investiture that can be stored in metal can be gotten through compounding and storing the attribute back into the metal as you burn it.

Fullborn may as well have atium even when he doesn't, nor does he have atium shadows in a tinmind.

Compounding doesn't work this way. As the metal is burned, the investiture is pulled out. If the metalmind isn't full, then eventually it will revert to being non-invested, and the allomantic effect. The fullness doesn't matter, only the amount of investiture. 1 second of half strength will get you ten seconds of half strength after burning for 1 second in a metal flake and in a bead. The strikethrough is mine, as I am addressing multiple paragraphs, and don't want to delete them like most other times.

I don't mean diminishing returns as in compression rates. There is a WoB that I have failed to find since I read it that says that one can move an attribute from one metalmind to another without exhibiting any of the attribute, but there is some loss. I think it works the same when you compound and immediately chuck it into a metalmind.

Maybe, and Probably. It works like that in the MAG, but we don't know exactly how quality differences in allomancy work, and how those interact with fueorchemistry. Is the extra investiture based on metal or effect?

It would speed them up though, because you both get more investiture and can burn faster.

There is loss even at base rate, as investiture is used at some point in the process. Also, durilium bypasses it. D-burning is more efficient than D-tapping, which is more efficient than tapping. Burning itself is a different matter, because there is less finesse, but it is useful. Do note I likely meant D-burning, not regular burning, but it's been a fat minute.

What about a hemalurgic F-tin spike with an associated tinmind with atium shadows?

I've read TLM, but I don't know what spoilers your talking about. Would you spoiler box the sections for me?

I disagree. A mistborn with C-Gold can run away and/or hide and/or survive long enough for the radiant to dun, and then fight them as someone with live plate and live blade vs a mistborn with C-G

 

Time for the next volley of replies:

Diminishing returns goes away with Durilium - it provides the investiture required for compression. That is why the upper limit is so outragous - Practically, one can a ton of attribute at once, and because of the way it only pulles from the metalmind(s) your tapping, you can use many metalminds to provide duration to your D-tapping. Durilium is one of the best allomantic metals for the combat fuerochemical metals. Benadally, Gold, and Durilium are the 3 best allomantic metals for a bloodmaker as far as speed-healing goes.

The contact strengthens the Connection, I assume by several orders of magnitude, but tapping can augment it enough that you are still more connected than a fused on the ground.

I personally believe you would stop seeing the part that is severed. If not, it is a lot more difficult to notice, and I would agree with the others (not to gut wounds, but yes to fingers) especially since one would make sure to have those things visible in the shadow.

I'm pretty sure one can reach that with just practice, but more importantly, tin compounding. You can store steelsight and ironsight in a tinmind, and compounding it will make it much stronger. You can totally see shards with it, and probably souls and axi as well.

I actually think it might be useful them, allowing them to burn/fill/tap metals that haven't been mined.

I think basic is possible, but the complex way I was discussing probably requires practice. Also, TLM spoiler should be in a box, even though it has no specifics (I don't think specifics would eb allowed to be in a box.

I still think those were numbers he pulled out of thin air. Also, will we ever know? This seems like something that might not be explained until after the cosmere is finished.

I would actually assume it burns slower - pewter is about as fast as steel and iron, but does more than F-Pewter. And F-pewter makes matter, so it should be more than F-steel.

This is how it works.

As I've said earlier in this very long post, a fullborn would make it noticeable, even if it is just a negative control. Keep in mind that electrum does allow for back-talk - in sign language.

I like that, haddent thought of it that way.

Good point. Definitely top 3 allomantic metals for speed healing as a bloodmaker.

This isn't how it works, it drains it a specific rate as the metal is consumed, and a metalmind that isn't full will revert to the allomantic effect, if the attribute isn't moved back into the metalmind per the WoB. And it is in moving it to the metalmind where the (very theoretical) loss is coming from.

I don't see what the multiple metalminds means, do you mean types of metals or metalminds of a single metal? The latter doesn't do anything AFAIK, metals only burn so fast. I don't know what you would be trying to get if the former.

She may not have been touching all the strands, but it's a good point.

 

Time for the third volley:

I'm not addressing these in order.

When compounding, you burn the metal at a rate of Y grams per second, and taps it at rate X per Y grams. The amount of investiture is what matters when compounding, not % fill. The investiture is evenly distributed, but the investiture is being pulled out. Also, it fuels 9* the attribute, as you get 10* back after putting in 1*. Also, A-pewter provides a multitude of effects, while F-Pewter provides 2, strength and mass. We don't know the rate of conversion for investiture to mass, but I dought that 1 unit of investiture provides more A-pewter strength than F-pewter strength.

The WoBs say that burn rate is based off of work, so if we think that 9* fuerochemical traits takes more investiture, than the burn rate will be faster. IF we think it's less work, then it would burn slower.

Less pure metals have weekened effects, by pulling less investiture out. I suspect that one couldn't burn it at different rates, but to get the effects of a low burn, one might need a regular, or even flared.

I am just genuinely trying to figure this out.  

So the amount of storage in a metalmind has an effect on compounding or it doesn't?  I store 1 second of speed into a 188 gram metalmind. Then when I burn that I get 10 seconds out of it before it just turns into normal steel?  

What then of the 60 billion seconds of speed in the same 188 gram metalmind?  Does it burn so slowly that you would never use it up?  

Part of these suggest you would burn faster the more full it is.  Which is where I am saying if that were the case you would see even bigger top speed numbers.  

But if the amount that that metalmind is full doesn't have any effect on burning then why would 1 second of speed only net you 10 seconds worth before turning into normal A steel?  

It seems that in this thought process there is some magical breakpoint where suddenly compounding is no longer net positive because you have too much attribute stored.  

[therunner]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So are there any WoBs to support that a metalmind burns faster with less attribute stored? 

It is not that they burn faster with less attribute stored, it is that only portion of the metal will work as charged metal. And once you burn that out, the rest is just regular metal.

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I guess I am looking for something that hints to a compounder being limited to just 10-20x enhancement at any one time.  As far as I know the only math we have is Miles or Sazed (I honestly can't remember which one) mentioning that you get 10x what you put in when you burn it.  I can't think of a mention of how fast or slow you are forced to burn it and that would work completely contrary to everything we have seen from allomancy in the past.  

I don't think compounder is limited to 10x-20x enhancement at a time, just that burning of the metalmind will not get you more than that.
Otherwise it does not make sense for Miles not to burn his metalminds all the time, which we know he does not do.

We know that burning metalmind provides you with 10x the attribute, that is given.

We know that metalmind with small amount of charge will acts as F-charged metal only for a shortwhile before the charge runs out (i.e. metalmind that is not full will not get burned completly away, at some point it will turn just into regular piece of metal).
We also know that Compounders don't burn their metalminds for their feats (see what Miles does).

From that we can draw two conclusions

1. When burning F-charged metal, the Feruchemical charge gets consumed not proportionally to the amount of metal charged.
2. Burning metalminds does not provide the levels of attribute tapping can.

From this I would conclude that you burn some amount A of metal and some amount B of attribute (which is what re-codes the metal to that attribute). The ratio of A/B changes depending on how charged the metalmind is, however the amount of Investiture released per second of burn is the same (or nearly so).

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If the metal burns the same as with allomancy then there is a low burn and a normal burn and a flare rate all applicable.  We also have never seen purity levels of a metal slow or speed up burn rate either by my memory. If the amount stored were simply making the metal more pure in essence then it still wouldn't change your burn rates you would just draw that much more.  

It is the same as allomancy, only burn rate can change (as the metal is different).
And as I state multiple times, the burn speed would not change, only that after sometime the charged portion of metal will run out and it would be just regular metal.

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I think this concept truly described and explains Miles feats better than any other options.  A shotgun goes off in your face and you heal it as the shot passes through your flesh.  This is healing beyond anything we have seen in the cosmere.  

But Miles does not burn his metalminds for healing, he just taps them.
And frankly the healing is not beyond anything seen in Cosmere.

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It seems wrong when you apply it to steel and the true danger of a speedster like that but for gold it makes perfect sense that it works this way.  But this discussion has nothing to do with fairness just like it doesn't when the answer is soulcast aluminum around your head while hiding in the cognitive realm.  My point is purely based on what we have seen in the books... compounding gives access to so much power that the compounder can waste and waste and never worry about running out.  

Clearly not true, Miles spends his downtime replenishing his stores, and has to keep stealing gold to feed his habit so to speak.
So he clearly has to take some care to not run out.

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To suggest anything less I really need to see ideas of a cap.  "You are only allowed to gain 20x your base in any attribute when compounding".  I don't think it exists.  

I never said anything along those lines, only that burning of metalminds does not provide high multiples of attribute.
Tapping is what does that.

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

OK, but why can't someone multitask? Isn't that what you were saying?

Compounding is non-trivial, e.g. Inquisitors did not learn it in years.
So I think multi-tasking Compounding is difficult to do, but not necessarily impossible.

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I'm pretty sure he had to choose which metal to burn, invested or non-invested. I'm fairly certain you cannot get the regular effect out of a metalmind until you burn out the attribute.

Possible, I might have mis-remembered that.

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Right, but in about 24cc s of metal. The amount of investiture that can fit in metal doesn't change based on fuerochemical power. Also, variablity in fuerochemical power is shown in decay rate for compression and tapping at the same rate.

We don't actually know that.

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Actually, you only need to keep a small portion of the speed that you are currently compounding.

Yeah, but if you keep only small portion of speed you must then start over compounding speed.
So, you compounded one thing faster thanks to speed, but now you must compound speed. No help.

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There is a WoB saying there is decay from moving an attribute from one metalmind to another, but no attribute will be expressed, and the same should happen with compounding, even with durilium. I can't find it, but Ive spent awhile looking for it.

No such WoB as far as I know.
The one you are talking about is for tapping/storing and it does not say anything about attribute not getting expressed, not for burning metalminds for Compounding.

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

The mistborn has a large amount of survivability without using fuerochemistry, so a very viable strategy is wait for the radiant to go dun.

Mistborn gets beaten by Windrunner on 3rd Oath, would get crushed by Windrunner on 4th and stands no chance against Windrunner on 5th.
So yeah, Fullborn needs to use Feruchemy to stand a chance.

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Thing is, the bands of mourning were tiny. The compounding one can get from such small material is incredible, I estimate about 1/4 of the investiture that can be stored in metal can be gotten through compounding and storing the attribute back into the metal as you burn it.

No they were not, they were described as oversized spear head, and regular spearhead is ~35 cm long. So BoM were quite large for metalmind.

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Fullborn may as well have atium even when he doesn't, nor does he have atium shadows in a tinmind.

What do you mean? This makes no sense to me.
 

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

There is loss even at base rate, as investiture is used at some point in the process. Also, durilium bypasses it. D-burning is more efficient than D-tapping, which is more efficient than tapping. Burning itself is a different matter, because there is less finesse, but it is useful. Do note I likely meant D-burning, not regular burning, but it's been a fat minute.

....

Diminishing returns goes away with Durilium - it provides the investiture required for compression. That is why the upper limit is so outragous - Practically, one can a ton of attribute at once, and because of the way it only pulles from the metalmind(s) your tapping, you can use many metalminds to provide duration to your D-tapping. Durilium is one of the best allomantic metals for the combat fuerochemical metals. Benadally, Gold, and Durilium are the 3 best allomantic metals for a bloodmaker as far as speed-healing goes.

D-burning is dangerous, as is D-tapping (if that is even a thing?). So would not rely on that.
Fullborn can kill themselves if they tap too much at once (e.g. by burning themselves alive, or crushing themselves), so duralumin is risky.

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What about a hemalurgic F-tin spike with an associated tinmind with atium shadows?

And where would he get that without access to atium? No one has atium outside of Marsh, and he ain't sharing.

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I've read TLM, but I don't know what spoilers your talking about. Would you spoiler box the sections for me?

I'd like to, but TLM spoilers are not allowed outside of the appropriate forum sections (even in spoiler boxes).

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I disagree. A mistborn with C-Gold can run away and/or hide and/or survive long enough for the radiant to dun, and then fight them as someone with live plate and live blade vs a mistborn with C-G

Mistborn with C-gold cannot run away, they are slower than Windrunner and with worse maneuverability.
Windrunner runs them down, immobilizes them with Reverse Lashing, and then just keeps cutting for a while.
Or just cuts their head off with shardblade and continues to cut, after that no more Investiture is required.

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

The contact strengthens the Connection, I assume by several orders of magnitude, but tapping can augment it enough that you are still more connected than a fused on the ground.

Possibly, but I am not buying it honestly.
We have seen very little of F-duralumin can do, and it was nowhere near this impressive.

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I personally believe you would stop seeing the part that is severed. If not, it is a lot more difficult to notice, and I would agree with the others (not to gut wounds, but yes to fingers) especially since one would make sure to have those things visible in the shadow.

Fair interpretation.

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I'm pretty sure one can reach that with just practice, but more importantly, tin compounding. You can store steelsight and ironsight in a tinmind, and compounding it will make it much stronger. You can totally see shards with it, and probably souls and axi as well.

Compounded tinmind I could agree with, however not practice.
No amount of skill will let you detect something you simply cannot, in this case highly invested objects. Steelsight most likely works by forming weak connections to things, and Investiture resists Investiture, so it would be question of power not skill.

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I actually think it might be useful them, allowing them to burn/fill/tap metals that haven't been mined.

What do you mean by this?

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I still think those were numbers he pulled out of thin air. Also, will we ever know? This seems like something that might not be explained until after the cosmere is finished.

I agree on them being pulled out of thin air, however they are the best we got.
More importantly they show his intent on compressing attribute getting harder and harder the more you try.
So eventually you will reach point where even compounding cannot keep up, but it will be ridiculously high most likely.

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I would actually assume it burns slower - pewter is about as fast as steel and iron, but does more than F-Pewter. And F-pewter makes matter, so it should be more than F-steel.

Pewter does not do more than F-pewter, its primary effect is doubling of strength with a bunch of minor improvements tacked on.
F-pewter ~10x the strength when burned. Also while it creates matter, the matter is stored whan storing (Sazed deflates when storing Pewter).

Plus we don't know the conversion rate between Investiture and matter.

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She may not have been touching all the strands, but it's a good point.

There is WoB that she actually did not tap everything due to some Intent stuff (bascially).
 

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When compounding, you burn the metal at a rate of Y grams per second, and taps it at rate X per Y grams. The amount of investiture is what matters when compounding, not % fill. The investiture is evenly distributed, but the investiture is being pulled out. Also, it fuels 9* the attribute, as you get 10* back after putting in 1*. Also, A-pewter provides a multitude of effects, while F-Pewter provides 2, strength and mass. We don't know the rate of conversion for investiture to mass, but I dought that 1 unit of investiture provides more A-pewter strength than F-pewter strength.

The WoBs say that burn rate is based off of work, so if we think that 9* fuerochemical traits takes more investiture, than the burn rate will be faster. IF we think it's less work, then it would burn slower.

Yep, I see it like that as well.

I only think that F-pewter is more investiture intesive (more of the attribute, and A-pewter other effects are very minor)
 

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

That looks far better and checks out with Miles. So yes, I have no further complaints.

Ah, Victory!
Thanks though, it was interesting discussion on this topic.

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AoL ch 6, the ballroom fight. Wayne was fighting with a bandit, got shot in the guts, started pretending to be dead by dropping the bubble, that bandit stayed above him, Wax noticed, steel pushed to them, killed that bandit with 6 bullets, and Wayne creates a bubble around them, and started healing his wound only then. Search for "chandeliers".

And thanks again.

[alder24]

On 3.03.2023 at 6:47 PM, therunner said:

More speculatively, we know that aluminum does not show up in A-Atium sight, and that heavily Invested objects don't show for steelsight.
Combined I speculate that such heavily Invested objects would also not show up in A-Atium sight, which would render Atium substantially weaker against Shardblades.
However, that is more of a Wild-mass guess

I've found the holy WoB to prove you're wrong! Invested metals are visible when burning Atium, Shardblades would leave a shadow!

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relient23 (paraphrased)

If you're burning atium, can you predict the trajectory of an atium (atium, not aluminum) bullet?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Atium? Yes. But aluminum... Maybe not so much. *sly smile*

Shadows of Self Houston signing (Oct. 7, 2015)

 

[therunner]

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I've found the holy WoB to prove you're wrong! Invested metals are visible when burning Atium, Shardblades would leave a shadow!

Thanks

Though I will point out that we call atium is alloy of godmetal with regular metal and even some aluminum alloys are detectable via atium/steelsight...soooo, window still open for pure Godmetals to not leave atium shadows?

Edited March 8 by therunner

[alder24]

12 minutes ago, therunner said:

Though I will point out that we call atium is alloy of godmetal with regular metal and even some aluminum alloys are detectable via atium/steelsight...soooo, window still open for pure Godmetals to not leave atium shadows?

Close that window, it's getting windy here  

[therunner]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Close that window, it's getting windy here  

Nah, I like the open window, the fresh air helps me think and find loopholes

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 3/7/2023 at 9:23 AM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I am just genuinely trying to figure this out.  

So the amount of storage in a metalmind has an effect on compounding or it doesn't?  I store 1 second of speed into a 188 gram metalmind. Then when I burn that I get 10 seconds out of it before it just turns into normal steel?  

What then of the 60 billion seconds of speed in the same 188 gram metalmind?  Does it burn so slowly that you would never use it up?  

Part of these suggest you would burn faster the more full it is.  Which is where I am saying if that were the case you would see even bigger top speed numbers.  

But if the amount that that metalmind is full doesn't have any effect on burning then why would 1 second of speed only net you 10 seconds worth before turning into normal A steel?  

It seems that in this thought process there is some magical breakpoint where suddenly compounding is no longer net positive because you have too much attribute stored.  

Part of the confusion is there are 3 people who mostly agree with minor points describing it diffrenlty, in ways that are counter to each other, despite @therunner claiming he sees it the same way. (we might, I might just be misunderstanding his description. Read below to find out!)

The way I understand it (and it's very similar to the MAG, though I thought this before reading those,) is that you burn the invested bit in X seconds, getting an amount of investiture equal to that used to get 10 seconds of speed, then the rest of the steel is regular steel that can be burnt in the regular Y seconds. X is not 10 (unless there is a coincidence)

With 60B seconds, you burn it in X2 seconds, getting an amount of investiture equivalent to the investiture required to tap 600B seconds of speed. Then you have Y seconds worth of regular steel. X2 is not 600B. You just get an amount of investiture during those X seconds comparable to the investiture you get/use from/by tapping speed for 600B seconds, distrobuted evenly over X2 seconds.

X2/60B = X/1, and X2/600B = X/10.

The issue with the "magical breakpoint" is that our investiture units are actually units of the effect of the investiture, which is very confusing. You get 10 seconds worth of speed in X seconds, or 600B in X2 seconds, not it 10 seconds or 600B seconds. The key is to differentiate when the units are what they claim to be, or if they are investiture units.

On 3/7/2023 at 10:50 AM, therunner said:

It is not that they burn faster with less attribute stored, it is that only portion of the metal will work as charged metal. And once you burn that out, the rest is just regular metal.

From that we can draw two conclusions

1. When burning F-charged metal, the Feruchemical charge gets consumed not proportionally to the amount of metal charged.
2. Burning metalminds does not provide the levels of attribute tapping can.

From this I would conclude that you burn some amount A of metal and some amount B of attribute (which is what re-codes the metal to that attribute). The ratio of A/B changes depending on how charged the metalmind is, however the amount of Investiture released per second of burn is the same (or nearly so).

Compounding is non-trivial, e.g. Inquisitors did not learn it in years.
So I think multi-tasking Compounding is difficult to do, but not necessarily impossible.

Possible, I might have mis-remembered that.

We don't actually know that.

Yeah, but if you keep only small portion of speed you must then start over compounding speed.
So, you compounded one thing faster thanks to speed, but now you must compound speed. No help.

No such WoB as far as I know.
The one you are talking about is for tapping/storing and it does not say anything about attribute not getting expressed, not for burning metalminds for Compounding.

Mistborn gets beaten by Windrunner on 3rd Oath, would get crushed by Windrunner on 4th and stands no chance against Windrunner on 5th.
So yeah, Fullborn needs to use Feruchemy to stand a chance.

No they were not, they were described as oversized spear head, and regular spearhead is ~35 cm long. So BoM were quite large for metalmind.

What do you mean? This makes no sense to me.
 

D-burning is dangerous, as is D-tapping (if that is even a thing?). So would not rely on that.
Fullborn can kill themselves if they tap too much at once (e.g. by burning themselves alive, or crushing themselves), so duralumin is risky.

And where would he get that without access to atium? No one has atium outside of Marsh, and he ain't sharing.

I'd like to, but TLM spoilers are not allowed outside of the appropriate forum sections (even in spoiler boxes).

Mistborn with C-gold cannot run away, they are slower than Windrunner and with worse maneuverability.
Windrunner runs them down, immobilizes them with Reverse Lashing, and then just keeps cutting for a while.
Or just cuts their head off with shardblade and continues to cut, after that no more Investiture is required.

Possibly, but I am not buying it honestly.
We have seen very little of F-duralumin can do, and it was nowhere near this impressive.

Fair interpretation.

Compounded tinmind I could agree with, however not practice.
No amount of skill will let you detect something you simply cannot, in this case highly invested objects. Steelsight most likely works by forming weak connections to things, and Investiture resists Investiture, so it would be question of power not skill.

What do you mean by this?

I agree on them being pulled out of thin air, however they are the best we got.
More importantly they show his intent on compressing attribute getting harder and harder the more you try.
So eventually you will reach point where even compounding cannot keep up, but it will be ridiculously high most likely.

Pewter does not do more than F-pewter, its primary effect is doubling of strength with a bunch of minor improvements tacked on.
F-pewter ~10x the strength when burned. Also while it creates matter, the matter is stored whan storing (Sazed deflates when storing Pewter).

Plus we don't know the conversion rate between Investiture and matter.

There is WoB that she actually did not tap everything due to some Intent stuff (bascially).
 

Yep, I see it like that as well.

I only think that F-pewter is more investiture intesive (more of the attribute, and A-pewter other effects are very minor)
 

Ah, Victory!
Thanks though, it was interesting discussion on this topic.

And thanks again.

Investiture, not necessarily attribute.

I can see multiple interpretations of #1, and I only agree with one of them. I actually didn't read it that way the first time, only the 4th time I reread it to respond. Would you be explain what you mean by "proportional to the metal charged?" (I know there is a not before it.) Absolutely.

I disagree with this intensely, (which confuses me, since you agree with my description later on,) the amount of metal burned is proportional to the investitrue inside the metal. Unless of course you meant % charge, in which I could agree, but that is a confusing way to write it (for me).

Makes sense, but I do believe someone born with it could pick it up and learn how to do it. The inquisitors were all adults, and had there spiritweb marred, and had weaker compounding.

So could I, I don't have the book to check.

Which part? You adress the ccs later, so I assume it's the maximum in a metalmind, but why would it? It would be an arbitrary cap before the metal becomes saturated, because max saturation is actually an issue. (see nightblood) If my third sentance, we have a WoB on it, about the weakening of feruchemistry.

I meant keeping only a small bit to use yourself. Net gain is 900%, so if you kept 200% of gross, then you would have 800% to continue compounding with at probably 250% speed. Also, the faster you compound the steel, the more investiture your getting in a second, so it is a positive feedback loop, no matter the amount you cycle back into the compounding.

That might be the WoB I was thinking about. I'll paraphrase what I remember:

Spoiler

Disclaimer: Read above.

Questioner:

Can you move an attribute's investiture from one metalmind to another? Is it direct or does it flow through you?

Brandon:

Yes, it passes through you. There is some loss, but probably not as much as you think.

I don't see why this wouldn't be the same for compounding - your channeling investiture from a source to a metalmind. The different source shouldn't be a whole lot, and if it was what we were thinking, it would be compression rates. But it's not, so it has to be that some investiture is used in filling. That is the only conclusion I can come up with. It also rectifies Brandon's statements that it isn't 1 to 1, but tapping at the same rate doesn't have compression. I personally think that the latter are just outdated, and there is compression no matter the rate, but also that there is investiture used in filling, but that is an argument for another thread.

Survivability as in it takes awhile for the radiant to assassinate them while they play purely defensibly. There isn't a way a mistborn without magitech to kill a windrunner with stormlight. A normal mistborn cannot outrun a windrunner, but one with bendalloy savanthood can, as can one with the specific thing discussed against a 5th ideal radiant in TLM/cosmere spoiler board. But, the mistborn is fast enough to make it take a while with the horseshoe trick (that can turn, can't it?). With F-gold and F-Steel, a fullborn can outrun a windrunner with the horseshoe trick, and can actually heal from the projectiles if they get hit. 

That is absolutly my bad, definitly not 24ccs then. Any idea the volume of TBoM?
@alder24 I was wrong, it's not about 24ccs per metal in TBoM.

I mean that fullborn has enough precognitive and cognitive abilities that they may as well have atium when they don't have atium, the effects are basically as good.

D-Burning is dangerous if you don't channel it. D-Tapping is the same thing as being necroburst while tapping, they are the same effects, but touch range instead of self range.
And it is only dangerous with sufficently large metalminds - a minmaxing fullborn would inplant tiny metalminds inside skin tight clothing. Likely weaved from larger metalminds as well for duration tapping. Small metalminds are just supperior to small ones in every way unless the size levels (it doesn't scale as a function of mass) increase the investiture/gram ratio by significant amounts.

1 It was a joke
2 leftover from Era 1.

Darn it, I really have no idea what your referencing, I don't want to reread it already, I have 7 books on my bedstand and another at the library already. What about mentioning me next time it becomes relevent on either of the TLM boards.

With steel/iron in a city, sure. With the horseshoe trick (not windrunners, but skybreakers, unless there is a way to prevent RL or is actually using "roads" (feilds of them, not actually a road. Unless it twists and turns and the windrunner has no idea where it goes.)) not so much.

There isn't anything on scadrial effected by connection AFAIK. There wouldn't be anything impressive to do with it, unlike if a fuerochemist elantrian used F-Durilium to bypass the location requirement.

Thanks!

K.

That's fair, but ity isn't 10*, its probably more like 2.5; (or 8.5,) (we don't know the rate the investiture is burned per mole, but thestored strength is max of .75ish, and then the investiture is multiplied by 10, and I believe diminishing returns apply to compounding, but even without it would only be 8.5;) and the mass is stored, but it still requires investiture during the compounding. However that can be mitigated via using A-Pewter strength repeatedly to dull the mass down. I'm fine with saying pewter burns faster than F-pewter for the sake of argument, but I personally disagree.

I would very much like to see that (for reason's unrelated to this argument). Good to know though.

K

Good Job!

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

But, the mistborn is fast enough to make it take a while with the horseshoe trick (that can turn, can't it?). With F-gold and F-Steel, a fullborn can outrun a windrunner with the horseshoe trick, and can actually heal from the projectiles if they get hit. 

How would F-steel help with Vin's horseshoes? It is physical speed, it doesn't affect flying.

Spoiler

Brainless

So if you jumped off a high place and you were a steel Feruchemist, could you store the speed of you falling?

Brandon Sanderson

No, because-- I'm going to say you need to be moving under your own-- because otherwise it's all relative, right? If you're falling, it's no different than if you're traveling on the planet or things like that.

Glamdring804

So it's related more to muscle contractions.

Brandon Sanderson

*hesitantly* Yes, kind of. Feruchemy bends all sorts of weird things, ever since I started doing the weight one. So, yes.

Brainless

The thing about Feruchemy is it feels like you could be like a savant short of it, but it would be much more minor than something like a savant for-- It would be more things like what you could get for exercise and stuff like that.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Yeah, that's possible.

MisCon 2018 (May 26, 2018)

 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

How would F-steel help with Vin's horseshoes? It is physical speed, it doesn't affect flying.

  Hide contents

Brainless

So if you jumped off a high place and you were a steel Feruchemist, could you store the speed of you falling?

Brandon Sanderson

No, because-- I'm going to say you need to be moving under your own-- because otherwise it's all relative, right? If you're falling, it's no different than if you're traveling on the planet or things like that.

Glamdring804

So it's related more to muscle contractions.

Brandon Sanderson

*hesitantly* Yes, kind of. Feruchemy bends all sorts of weird things, ever since I started doing the weight one. So, yes.

Brainless

The thing about Feruchemy is it feels like you could be like a savant short of it, but it would be much more minor than something like a savant for-- It would be more things like what you could get for exercise and stuff like that.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Yeah, that's possible.

MisCon 2018 (May 26, 2018)

 

It effects allomantic burn speed, which would apply more force to the horseshoes, which would cause them to fly faster, which would allow the user to travel faster.

[Frustration]

Sorry for my disappearance, and rather lackluster reentry, I'm still catching up with these posts, but there is something I wanted to bring up, from AoL

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From what Waxillium knew of Compounding, it could be very dangerous to stop once you started.

This means that a Fullborn would have to be careful with compounding on its own, and would have to be continously tapping any attribute they compounded regularly, which severely hampers their ability to outlast a Radiant.

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Sorry for my disappearance, and rather lackluster reentry,

Glad to have you back  

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

This means that a Fullborn would have to be careful with compounding on its own, and would have to be continously tapping any attribute they compounded regularly, which severely hampers their ability to outlast a Radiant.

I don't understand. Why would it be dangerous to stop compounding, and why would they have to tap a metalmind? Miles didn't compound all the time.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Glad to have you back  

Glad to be back

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I don't understand. Why would it be dangerous to stop compounding, and why would they have to tap a metalmind? Miles didn't compound all the time.

No clue why it would be, something about stressing the soul would be my best guess.

And while Miles wasn't always burning gold, he was always tapping.

[therunner]

13 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Part of the confusion is there are 3 people who mostly agree with minor points describing it differently, in ways that are counter to each other, despite @therunner claiming he sees it the same way. (we might, I might just be misunderstanding his description. Read below to find out!)

The way I understand it (and it's very similar to the MAG, though I thought this before reading those,) is that you burn the invested bit in X seconds, getting an amount of investiture equal to that used to get 10 seconds of speed, then the rest of the steel is regular steel that can be burnt in the regular Y seconds. X is not 10 (unless there is a coincidence)

With 60B seconds, you burn it in X2 seconds, getting an amount of investiture equivalent to the investiture required to tap 600B seconds of speed. Then you have Y seconds worth of regular steel. X2 is not 600B. You just get an amount of investiture during those X seconds comparable to the investiture you get/use from/by tapping speed for 600B seconds, distrobuted evenly over X2 seconds.

X2/60B = X/1, and X2/600B = X/10.

The issue with the "magical breakpoint" is that our investiture units are actually units of the effect of the investiture, which is very confusing. You get 10 seconds worth of speed in X seconds, or 600B in X2 seconds, not it 10 seconds or 600B seconds. The key is to differentiate when the units are what they claim to be, or if they are investiture units.

I see it like this:

• You have metalmind with Y amount of attribute in it (in the form of Investiture).
• You burn it, and can burn it as F-metal for X seconds before running out of the stored attribute.
• The total amount of Investiture/attribute released is 10*Y.
• hence the rate per second is 10*Y/X
• to align with allomancy, this rate per second should be mostly constant

Additionally, since the Compounders we have seen only ever tapped for their feats, I maintain that the rate per second 10*Y/X must be relatively low (i.e. low multipliers of attribute at most ~10x), and since it should be constant (as that is how allomancy works), then the burn time X must change depending on how charged the metalmind is.
I.e. the more charged metalminds burn slower for some reason.

13 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Investiture, not necessarily attribute.

I was using the two interchangeably, because the attribute when stored turns into Investiture.

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I can see multiple interpretations of #1, and I only agree with one of them. I actually didn't read it that way the first time, only the 4th time I reread it to respond. Would you be explain what you mean by "proportional to the metal charged?" (I know there is a not before it.) Absolutely.

I disagree with this intensely, (which confuses me, since you agree with my description later on,) the amount of metal burned is proportional to the investitrue inside the metal. Unless of course you meant % charge, in which I could agree, but that is a confusing way to write it (for me).

I described how I think burning charged metalmind works above, so hopefully that clears any confusion, and we can identify the exact points on which we disagree.

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Makes sense, but I do believe someone born with it could pick it up and learn how to do it. The inquisitors were all adults, and had there spiritweb marred, and had weaker compounding.

I do think it could be picked up, but I do think the multitasking of compounding would be difficult to do, even for someone born to it.
I could see it done for some of the less dangerous attributes, or some that don't have much overlap in impact.

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I meant keeping only a small bit to use yourself. Net gain is 900%, so if you kept 200% of gross, then you would have 800% to continue compounding with at probably 250% speed. Also, the faster you compound the steel, the more investiture your getting in a second, so it is a positive feedback loop, no matter the amount you cycle back into the compounding.

I think that would still not work.
You spent time T1 compounding steel, and you would spend time T2 compound different metal. Then, you use some F-steel to reduce T2 time to T3, but now you have to again compound F-steel for time T4 to get back to amount you had at beginning.
So the total time compounding in non-hacky way is T1+T2, and in the second scenario it is T1+T3+T4. What I think is that time T3+T4 > T2.

Though thinking about it some more, there is probably a threshold beyond which it does work. Since if you tap F-steel only to double your speed, then T3 = T2/2 (roughly), but T4 will be definitely smaller then T2/2.

So I have to concede, it would work. It just took me an embarrassing amount of time to understand

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That might be the WoB I was thinking about. I'll paraphrase what I remember:

  Reveal hidden contents

Disclaimer: Read above.

Questioner:

Can you move an attribute's investiture from one metalmind to another? Is it direct or does it flow through you?

Brandon:

Yes, it passes through you. There is some loss, but probably not as much as you think.

I don't see why this wouldn't be the same for compounding - your channeling investiture from a source to a metalmind. The different source shouldn't be a whole lot, and if it was what we were thinking, it would be compression rates. But it's not, so it has to be that some investiture is used in filling. That is the only conclusion I can come up with. It also rectifies Brandon's statements that it isn't 1 to 1, but tapping at the same rate doesn't have compression. I personally think that the latter are just outdated, and there is compression no matter the rate, but also that there is investiture used in filling, but that is an argument for another thread.

Ha this is the WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e1717) I think.
I don't think it would be the same for Compounding, because there you burn the metal and get the attribute end of story. So you don't have a way to just partially draw it out. Then using A-Duralumin is still dangerous since the attribute is expressed.

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Survivability as in it takes awhile for the radiant to assassinate them while they play purely defensibly. There isn't a way a mistborn without magitech to kill a windrunner with stormlight. A normal mistborn cannot outrun a windrunner, but one with bendalloy savanthood can, as can one with the specific thing discussed against a 5th ideal radiant in TLM/cosmere spoiler board. But, the mistborn is fast enough to make it take a while with the horseshoe trick (that can turn, can't it?). With F-gold and F-Steel, a fullborn can outrun a windrunner with the horseshoe trick, and can actually heal from the projectiles if they get hit. 

I don't think horseshoe trick can turn, it relies on the momentum you already have. You pull the horseshoe from directly behind you, so it goes directly ahead of you, and you push on horseshoe again behind you, so you move just in line.

So you cannot really maneuver with it, and the speed limit would be lower then what Windrunner can (the limit being aerodynamic properties of the thing you use for it).
Plus once in air, Reverse Lashing would be viable option.
Definitely Windrunner could target horseshoes with Reverse Lashing, horseshoe trick is not viable option.

And if they have F-steel then Fullborn can just kill Windrunner no? That is why we moved the discussion to Fullborn minus F-steel.

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I mean that fullborn has enough precognitive and cognitive abilities that they may as well have atium when they don't have atium, the effects are basically as good.

They have what, Electrum and F-zinc? That is it. Which, yes in combination it would work quite well, even if not as well as atium.
Electrum is at heart defensive tool, whereas atium is offensive tool.

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D-Burning is dangerous if you don't channel it. D-Tapping is the same thing as being necroburst while tapping, they are the same effects, but touch range instead of self range.
And it is only dangerous with sufficently large metalminds - a minmaxing fullborn would inplant tiny metalminds inside skin tight clothing. Likely weaved from larger metalminds as well for duration tapping. Small metalminds are just supperior to small ones in every way unless the size levels (it doesn't scale as a function of mass) increase the investiture/gram ratio by significant amounts.

As addressed above, I don't think channeling directly to metalmind is possible when Compounding (burning part).
D-tapping would be an interesting option, however there are three problems with it

1. Problem 1: You won't get more of attribute then you put in, so won't help with Compounding.
2. Problem 2: You get giant influx of attribute for incredibly short time (<0.1 seconds), so you cannot really do much with it (maybe with F-steel, F-zinc or F-gold).
3. Problem 3: Since you are tapping, and Duralumin just forcibly makes you tap all at once, there would probably be horrible loss from compression.

I agree that based on how size levels/investiture capacity behaves, small metalminds could be superior.

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1 It was a joke
2 leftover from Era 1.

Ah, I have trouble discerning that over the text medium, apologies.
And Marsh has all that was leftover from Era 1, and is pretty much running out.

Quote

Darn it, I really have no idea what your referencing, I don't want to reread it already, I have 7 books on my bedstand and another at the library already. What about mentioning me next time it becomes relevent on either of the TLM boards.

It is fine
I will try to remember to mention you then.

Quote

With steel/iron in a city, sure. With the horseshoe trick (not windrunners, but skybreakers, unless there is a way to prevent RL or is actually using "roads" (feilds of them, not actually a road. Unless it twists and turns and the windrunner has no idea where it goes.)) not so much.

As addressed above, horseshoe trick is linear (though if you somehow get ahead, you could use quick burst of F-steel to reposition and start over).
And the thread discusses Windrunners specifically, not Skybreakers.

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There isn't anything on scadrial effected by connection AFAIK. There wouldn't be anything impressive to do with it, unlike if a fuerochemist elantrian used F-Durilium to bypass the location requirement.

Disagree, medallions need to form Connection, metalminds must have Connection to wearer.
As we saw in RoW, getting Connected to ground in some way can leech out Investiture within person .
Sidenote: For Bondsmith this would be good counter to Fullborn, just do to them what Ishar did, and they are powerless. Provided of course that somehow Bondsmith can touch them fast enough (which is doubtful).

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That's fair, but ity isn't 10*, its probably more like 2.5; (or 8.5,) (we don't know the rate the investiture is burned per mole, but thestored strength is max of .75ish, and then the investiture is multiplied by 10, and I believe diminishing returns apply to compounding, but even without it would only be 8.5;) and the mass is stored, but it still requires investiture during the compounding. However that can be mitigated via using A-Pewter strength repeatedly to dull the mass down. I'm fine with saying pewter burns faster than F-pewter for the sake of argument, but I personally disagree.

I would very much like to see that (for reason's unrelated to this argument). Good to know though.

Fair, I think now (see above my reasoning on burn rate and compounding) that depending on how invested metalmind is, it would burn either faster or slower somehow.
But agreeing to disagree is fair outcome, considering the lack of concrete information.

Quote

I would very much like to see that (for reason's unrelated to this argument). Good to know though.

You mean the one about Marasi not tapping?
Sure, here it is https://wob.coppermind.net/events/120/#e1902

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

Sorry for my disappearance, and rather lackluster reentry, I'm still catching up with these posts, but there is something I wanted to bring up, from AoL

Nice to have you back, hopefully you will have fun.

[Frustration]

7 hours ago, therunner said:

I.e. the more charged metalminds burn slower for some reason.

I don't really think that works, the only reason I have seen proposed is that the investiture resistance property takes effect but neither Atium or Lerasium take longer to burn.

7 hours ago, therunner said:

Nice to have you back, hopefully you will have fun.

That's the hope. It should be pretty fun.

[cometaryorbit]

17 hours ago, Frustration said:

Glad to be back

No clue why it would be, something about stressing the soul would be my best guess.

And while Miles wasn't always burning gold, he was always tapping.

I think it's basically because compounding a lot makes you at risk of being a compounding savant, and if you are, stopping the power influx will be bad. It's like a dependency on the Investiture.

Metallic Arts savantism seems to be a bit different than Soulcasting savantism in that Soulcasters seem worse off while using their power (Kaza feels a pull to become smoke) while Metallic Arts savants seem to be worse off when they turn off the power.

TLR seems to have suffered some kind of shock when he lost his bracers (he didn't try to Ironpull them back).

But maybe there's some shock effect even if you're not a savant.

Edited March 10 by cometaryorbit

[IlstrawberrySeed]

9 hours ago, therunner said:

I see it like this:

• You have metalmind with Y amount of attribute in it (in the form of Investiture).
• You burn it, and can burn it as F-metal for X seconds before running out of the stored attribute.
• The total amount of Investiture/attribute released is 10*Y.
• hence the rate per second is 10*Y/X
• to align with allomancy, this rate per second should be mostly constant

Additionally, since the Compounders we have seen only ever tapped for their feats, I maintain that the rate per second 10*Y/X must be relatively low (i.e. low multipliers of attribute at most ~10x), and since it should be constant (as that is how allomancy works), then the burn time X must change depending on how charged the metalmind is.
I.e. the more charged metalminds burn slower for some reason.

I was using the two interchangeably, because the attribute when stored turns into Investiture.

I described how I think burning charged metalmind works above, so hopefully that clears any confusion, and we can identify the exact points on which we disagree.

I do think it could be picked up, but I do think the multitasking of compounding would be difficult to do, even for someone born to it.
I could see it done for some of the less dangerous attributes, or some that don't have much overlap in impact.

I think that would still not work.
You spent time T1 compounding steel, and you would spend time T2 compound different metal. Then, you use some F-steel to reduce T2 time to T3, but now you have to again compound F-steel for time T4 to get back to amount you had at beginning.
So the total time compounding in non-hacky way is T1+T2, and in the second scenario it is T1+T3+T4. What I think is that time T3+T4 > T2.

Though thinking about it some more, there is probably a threshold beyond which it does work. Since if you tap F-steel only to double your speed, then T3 = T2/2 (roughly), but T4 will be definitely smaller then T2/2.

So I have to concede, it would work. It just took me an embarrassing amount of time to understand

Ha this is the WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e1717) I think.
I don't think it would be the same for Compounding, because there you burn the metal and get the attribute end of story. So you don't have a way to just partially draw it out. Then using A-Duralumin is still dangerous since the attribute is expressed.

I don't think horseshoe trick can turn, it relies on the momentum you already have. You pull the horseshoe from directly behind you, so it goes directly ahead of you, and you push on horseshoe again behind you, so you move just in line.

So you cannot really maneuver with it, and the speed limit would be lower then what Windrunner can (the limit being aerodynamic properties of the thing you use for it).
Plus once in air, Reverse Lashing would be viable option.
Definitely Windrunner could target horseshoes with Reverse Lashing, horseshoe trick is not viable option.

And if they have F-steel then Fullborn can just kill Windrunner no? That is why we moved the discussion to Fullborn minus F-steel.

They have what, Electrum and F-zinc? That is it. Which, yes in combination it would work quite well, even if not as well as atium.
Electrum is at heart defensive tool, whereas atium is offensive tool.

As addressed above, I don't think channeling directly to metalmind is possible when Compounding (burning part).
D-tapping would be an interesting option, however there are three problems with it

1. Problem 1: You won't get more of attribute then you put in, so won't help with Compounding.
2. Problem 2: You get giant influx of attribute for incredibly short time (<0.1 seconds), so you cannot really do much with it (maybe with F-steel, F-zinc or F-gold).
3. Problem 3: Since you are tapping, and Duralumin just forcibly makes you tap all at once, there would probably be horrible loss from compression.

I agree that based on how size levels/investiture capacity behaves, small metalminds could be superior.

Ah, I have trouble discerning that over the text medium, apologies.
And Marsh has all that was leftover from Era 1, and is pretty much running out.

It is fine
I will try to remember to mention you then.

As addressed above, horseshoe trick is linear (though if you somehow get ahead, you could use quick burst of F-steel to reposition and start over).
And the thread discusses Windrunners specifically, not Skybreakers.

Disagree, medallions need to form Connection, metalminds must have Connection to wearer.
As we saw in RoW, getting Connected to ground in some way can leech out Investiture within person .
Sidenote: For Bondsmith this would be good counter to Fullborn, just do to them what Ishar did, and they are powerless. Provided of course that somehow Bondsmith can touch them fast enough (which is doubtful).

Fair, I think now (see above my reasoning on burn rate and compounding) that depending on how invested metalmind is, it would burn either faster or slower somehow.
But agreeing to disagree is fair outcome, considering the lack of concrete information.

The disagreement is about the burn rate changing. I think the compounding per mole is constant (independent from if a compounder can change the rate of moles/second), while you think the compounding per mole changes based on the % fill. (At least that's how I read your statement.) I agree that agreeing to disagree in this area is fine.

I really do think multitasking is something a fullborn, especially one trained in combat, would know, even if it requires copper. (Side note, I think copper can store other things related to the brain.)

I'm glad you agree to the general Idea, but I was specifically proposing a more (time) effecient solution than the one you decided was fine.

If linear, the windrunner has an infinite limit. And good to know, though I disagree that a skilled one couldn't turn, it should be a wide enought turn to allow the windrunner to turn without much trouble. And RL. My bad on the steel, definetly no way for them to escape.

Electrum, F-zink, and F-chromium. Electrum allows comunication to the past, cromium allows more gut feelings (and possibly improved electrum) and zink lets them pull a taravangain, but with access to fortune.

Why? That is how the compounders get there stores. I need you to have a more Azish explanation, because it seems contradictory at the moment.
1 isn't an issue in my mind because of our disagreement over 3 (below), but number 2 isn't an issue because you have many metalminds, as one ends you tap another.
The way I understand it, Durilium and necrosil provides the investiture for conpression.

I'm also not a funny person IRL, but I meant a leftover tinmind, not leftover atium. Though I since found out that the inquisitors only got F-gold under TLR. I doubt any inquisitor decided to fill a tinmind with atium shadows. (If it is even possible, some claim it would be in fortune Feruchemistry or hemalurgy.)

Thanks.

I have been in basically 4 threads, F-gold, a mistborn vs radiant (simultaneously discussing all orders) in a TLM board, this, and metalic art gimicks. Sorry for mixing up the enemy.

I don't know that F-durilium used on oneself is the way to make a medalian.

As above, so below.

[therunner]

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

The disagreement is about the burn rate changing. I think the compounding per mole is constant (independent from if a compounder can change the rate of moles/second), while you think the compounding per mole changes based on the % fill. (At least that's how I read your statement.) I agree that agreeing to disagree in this area is fine.

Alright fair enough.

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I really do think multitasking is something a fullborn, especially one trained in combat, would know, even if it requires copper. (Side note, I think copper can store other things related to the brain.)

Why copper?
Also what leads you to that idea? Other metals already store other Cognitive related attributes.

Quote

If linear, the windrunner has an infinite limit. And good to know, though I disagree that a skilled one couldn't turn, it should be a wide enought turn to allow the windrunner to turn without much trouble. And RL. My bad on the steel, definetly no way for them to escape.

How could they turn though?
Both steel and Iron work only linearly, away from the Mistborn. So you have no way to give the anchors sideways momentum, outside of hoping for the effect of wind to steer it.

You would need at least 3 more anchor in the orthogonal direction, at which point the whole mechanism is even more complicated then horseshoe trick. And that one was already on the very complex side as far as coordination goes.

Either way, without F-steel, it is far slower and far less maneuverable than Windrunner (or even Skybreaker).

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Electrum, F-zink, and F-chromium. Electrum allows comunication to the past, cromium allows more gut feelings (and possibly improved electrum) and zink lets them pull a taravangain, but with access to fortune.

Electrum allows relatively limited communication to past (whatever you can fit into 2-3 seconds, while also doing something else).
I forgot about Chromium, thanks, that would be interesting to see.

And I don't think Zinc would bring them near Taravangian level (if you are talking about Diagram day), we saw extreme Zinc in BoM, and while impressive, it was nowhere near that.

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Why? That is how the compounders get there stores. I need you to have a more Azish explanation, because it seems contradictory at the moment.
1 isn't an issue in my mind because of our disagreement over 3 (below), but number 2 isn't an issue because you have many metalminds, as one ends you tap another.
The way I understand it, Durilium and necrosil provides the investiture for conpression.

Compounders get stores via burning metalminds, not tapping, tapping cannot give out more than you put in.

Problem 1 is unavoidable, D-tapping cannot grant you more Investiture then you put in (since Duralumin does not give you more power, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5901 )
Problem 2 is possible to partially circumvent using small metalminds, however, still you will get only sub-second bursts of attribute. You would need to shift which metalmind you are tapping over 10x per second just to maintain the attribute using D-tapping, and you would have to do it for multiple metalminds as well.

Problem 3, I don't think either Duralumin or Nicrosil would provide the Investiture necessary, or if they would, then you would run out of Nicrosil/Duralumin nearly immediately, without even tapping the entire metalmind. Again Duralumin does not provide more power (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5901).
In allomancy there is no compression necessary, and yet both of these metals are fast burning. For Feruchemy, the Investiture requirements to squeeze attribute into sub-second burst would be gigantic.

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I'm also not a funny person IRL, but I meant a leftover tinmind, not leftover atium. Though I since found out that the inquisitors only got F-gold under TLR. I doubt any inquisitor decided to fill a tinmind with atium shadows. (If it is even possible, some claim it would be in fortune Feruchemistry or hemalurgy.)

Ah.
Though left over tinmind is useless, since it would not be unkeyed, and no one could use it.

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I have been in basically 4 threads, F-gold, a mistborn vs radiant (simultaneously discussing all orders) in a TLM board, this, and metalic art gimicks. Sorry for mixing up the enemy.

No problem, I did not mean it badly. Only bringing it to attention.

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I don't know that F-durilium used on oneself is the way to make a medalian.

I don't know how it works, but F-Duralumin is used in creation of medallions somehow, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122/#e3345

[IlstrawberrySeed]

19 minutes ago, therunner said:

Why copper?
Also what leads you to that idea? Other metals already store other Cognitive related attributes.

How could they turn though?
Both steel and Iron work only linearly, away from the Mistborn. So you have no way to give the anchors sideways momentum, outside of hoping for the effect of wind to steer it.

You would need at least 3 more anchor in the orthogonal direction, at which point the whole mechanism is even more complicated then horseshoe trick. And that one was already on the very complex side as far as coordination goes.

Either way, without F-steel, it is far slower and far less maneuverable than Windrunner (or even Skybreaker).

Electrum allows relatively limited communication to past (whatever you can fit into 2-3 seconds, while also doing something else).
I forgot about Chromium, thanks, that would be interesting to see.

And I don't think Zinc would bring them near Taravangian level (if you are talking about Diagram day), we saw extreme Zinc in BoM, and while impressive, it was nowhere near that.

Compounders get stores via burning metalminds, not tapping, tapping cannot give out more than you put in.

Problem 1 is unavoidable, D-tapping cannot grant you more Investiture then you put in (since Duralumin does not give you more power, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5901 )
Problem 2 is possible to partially circumvent using small metalminds, however, still you will get only sub-second bursts of attribute. You would need to shift which metalmind you are tapping over 10x per second just to maintain the attribute using D-tapping, and you would have to do it for multiple metalminds as well.

Problem 3, I don't think either Duralumin or Nicrosil would provide the Investiture necessary, or if they would, then you would run out of Nicrosil/Duralumin nearly immediately, without even tapping the entire metalmind. Again Duralumin does not provide more power (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5901).
In allomancy there is no compression necessary, and yet both of these metals are fast burning. For Feruchemy, the Investiture requirements to squeeze attribute into sub-second burst would be gigantic.

Ah.
Though left over tinmind is useless, since it would not be unkeyed, and no one could use it.

No problem, I did not mean it badly. Only bringing it to attention.

I don't know how it works, but F-Duralumin is used in creation of medallions somehow, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122/#e3345

I specifically mean brain activity, subconscious stuff, like memories. One can recall them, but it the storing of them is unconscious. I believe that certain regulatory functions in the brain can be stored. A mix of push/pulling on different parts, and with the idea that one can start to turn to affect the momentum. Aditionally, there are already shoes going diagnol across them.

Not really, you can see downwards of 100 shadows, and you would train yourself to seriously consider stopping to tell your past self the present, making them real possibilites that could be seen. You don't actually have to do it.

Not quite that smart, but with the access to fortune, should be enough to do something like the diagram.

I'm not saying it is unavoidable, I'm saying it isn't an issue. Think about it this way: Your calculator cannot find the zero of something. It is unavoidable, but it isn't an issue, you can just find the inverse and plug in 0.
2 definitly requires training and F-zink (which would also get drained).

3, it takes investiuture to burn the metal, that is what causes one to be a misting. The ability to pull the bit of investiture to burn the metal. Stronger mistings can pull more investiture through to burn the metal. Durilum and necrosil's purpose is providing the investiture used to burn the metal. Considering that even the stormlight leakedge of radiants is equal or greater than the investiture pewtar has, and the investiture durilium uses compared to regular burning, this is incredibly small amounts of investiture. As Brandon has said, mistborn are slightly more invested than regular people, but it isn't really noticable unless they are burning metals or burned lots of metals (like Kel before the well).

I was thinking with an asociated iron spike, which would allow it to be burnt.

[therunner]

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I specifically mean brain activity, subconscious stuff, like memories. One can recall them, but it the storing of them is unconscious. I believe that certain regulatory functions in the brain can be stored. A mix of push/pulling on different parts, and with the idea that one can start to turn to affect the momentum. Aditionally, there are already shoes going diagnol across them.

Alright, interesting.

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Not really, you can see downwards of 100 shadows, and you would train yourself to seriously consider stopping to tell your past self the present, making them real possibilites that could be seen. You don't actually have to do it.

I don't think that would actually work, the shadows have to be active possible futures, i.e. there is a future where the Fullborn just stops to tell stuff to past and gets killed/harmed for it.

And there have to be a lot of those futures, since the most probable ones are the ones visible.

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Not quite that smart, but with the access to fortune, should be enough to do something like the diagram.

I sincerely doubt that, diagram was effectively result of Shardic intervention, albeit indirect one.
Again, we have seen compounded Zinc, and it does not look like that at all.

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I'm not saying it is unavoidable, I'm saying it isn't an issue. Think about it this way: Your calculator cannot find the zero of something. It is unavoidable, but it isn't an issue, you can just find the inverse and plug in 0.

What? How does that relate to the fact that Duralumin wont get you more attribute then was in metalmind?

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2 definitly requires training and F-zink (which would also get drained).

A lot of training, and a lot of Zinc (mainly Zinc though). I could believe Fullborn would pull it off if they constantly tapped F-Zinc at something like ~80x increase, and even then they would have to effectively switch mental task every subjective second (and not even for all metals). That would waste F-Zinc quite fast.
At this point Fullborn has to learn

1. Compounding, which can take at least a year or two to learn.
2. Simultaneous compounding of different metals.
3. Switching which metalminds to tap at sub seconds speeds.

And they have to Compound in the first place. The prep time Fullborn requires keeps increasing, compared to 4-5 years Radiant requires.

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3, it takes investiuture to burn the metal, that is what causes one to be a misting. The ability to pull the bit of investiture to burn the metal. Stronger mistings can pull more investiture through to burn the metal. Durilum and necrosil's purpose is providing the investiture used to burn the metal. Considering that even the stormlight leakedge of radiants is equal or greater than the investiture pewtar has, and the investiture durilium uses compared to regular burning, this is incredibly small amounts of investiture. As Brandon has said, mistborn are slightly more invested than regular people, but it isn't really noticable unless they are burning metals or burned lots of metals (like Kel before the well).

If Duralumin would be able to compensate for the attribute compression, it would get consumed incredibly fast then, do you agree with that?

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I was thinking with an asociated iron spike, which would allow it to be burnt.

What?

[Frustration]

Alright, I finally sat down and worked through these, sorry to the week old posters I'm bringing back.

On 3/3/2023 at 9:21 AM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

 I think in the case of projectiles bendalloy bubbles are overlooked slightly in their usefulness.  A handful of metal shot tossed out in front of a bendalloy bubble would allow the fullborn to selectively choose which pieces to shove against and which ones to ignore. 

You can't steelpush on objects outside of bubbles.

On 3/3/2023 at 9:55 AM, Trusk'our said:

My current headcannon is that you can Leech even uncracked Shardplate just by touching it, but we just don't have any examples of Leeching Plate at all, other than WoB stating Leeching powers being able to affect most Invested systems.

He's also said that Radiants can't draw light from gemstones in shardplate, and living plate doesn't even need light anyway

On 3/3/2023 at 0:02 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Compounding works the same way except at a rate of 10x that which you burn.  

So this is something that I saw a lot of and I wanted to bring it up.

Compounding is not 10x what you put in. The amount of power you get out is equal to what you would have gotten from Allomancy, plus what you stored. Otherwise your allomantic power would have to change.

On 3/3/2023 at 2:29 PM, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Also, can't you just hook up metalminds to follow (touching) in the cognitive realm, and send some to the spirit realm, in order to bypass that?

It was? What did it become?

Also, it's an example. Rashek isn't as poweful as the WoA, only a sliver of the power from it was used to increase his allomantic power. This WoB also came before TLM, so it isn't a valid argument in the specific scenario Mistborn Vs. Radiant there. 

I wouldn't put it past necrosil compounding. WoA is only an example, likely the mists were less powerful at a given instant than the WoA.

1. I don't think metalminds in other realms would work.

2. In the new version of WoR I think Szeth falls to death after Kal cuts his hand and he drops the Honorblade, but I haven't read it yet.

3. Brandon has also said that no one we have seen had the ability to push on Shardblades, so even Rashek couldn't do it.

On 3/5/2023 at 6:00 AM, alder24 said:

But then there is a little gremlin in your calculations - Miles. He spent 15 years in the Roughs as a lawman, constantly using his Health to heal even serious wounds (like dynamite exploding in his hand to get rid of nets). The fact that he can heal a gunshot wound just as a bullet is passing through him, or fall from heights and break his legs, healing them as they break, tells me that he was compressing his healing dozens of times for every wound, and yet he never even feared running out of stored health. Your calculations don't support what Miles was doing, as he started early as in the Roughs and doesn't spend decades on storing his health, nor did he have to replenish his attributes after spending a lot of health.

The entire Miles discussion was rather amusing to read because I kept thinking "Guys, Miles is a savant, we can't use him as a baseline" and then someone else posted it at the very end.

On 3/7/2023 at 11:50 AM, therunner said:

 I'd like to, but TLM spoilers are not allowed outside of the appropriate forum sections (even in spoiler boxes).

They updated the rules recently to allow them now, which is great.

[therunner]

30 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They updated the rules recently to allow them now, which is great.

Ah, thanks for the information, that will be useful then

[Trusk'our]

53 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The entire Miles discussion was rather amusing to read because I kept thinking "Guys, Miles is a savant, we can't use him as a baseline" and then someone else posted it at the very end.

My thoughts exactly 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

So this is something that I saw a lot of and I wanted to bring it up.

Compounding is not 10x what you put in. The amount of power you get out is equal to what you would have gotten from Allomancy, plus what you stored. Otherwise your allomantic power would have to change.

This is honestly a thing that I am still trying to understand.  I get that allomantic strength and power come into play here and it is a great theory except when it comes to metalminds with next to no storage and metalminds with a boatload of storage. 

What is the burn rate and what is the burn rate based on?  

If you had the same mass of allomantic steel 3 ways... 

One with 10 seconds worth of A steel

One as a metalmind with 5 seconds of double speed stored

One with a metalmind with 500 seconds of double speed stored

What rate do these burn and how do they work in a way to power the feruchemy with allomancy without being busted and without becoming net negative?  

I have read some theories that the full metalmind would just burn super slow and meet some speed cap from burning. My issue with that is that it literally nets us an infinite amount of theoretical power that gets to be on a slider ready to be moved to suit the most current argument. You can make it as weak or as powerful as you want based on burn rate.