Mid-Range Game 61: Shadows and Dust

[Shining Silhouette]

10 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

...please don't take this the wrong way, but is there any reason we shouldn't just try killing you again?

I mean there are plenty of reasons you shouldn't kill me. :3 

Why should you kill me? We have more time before the end of this cycle and we can discuss.

Is it really just because of my Fifth vote? And cause the elims saved me so they could set up an ML? Yes this could be scripted planning what I'm saying right now and I'm sure there are people who think that, but don't you think that I'm being too suspicious to be suspicious?

Like the Fifth vote stands out so obviously why would I ever draw more attention to myself when I already had two votes that cycle? And I haven't gotten thread support from my 'teammates' besides Wiz and Bookwyrms and I don't believe people have been trying to case us as e/e. 

If you take a step back you'll see this was the elims taking the opportunity of having just enough vote manip to kill a real villager and then have another one all ready for the next cycle. Elims, that was well played- maybe I shouldn't have voted Xino and given you that opportunity.

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Myopic said:

Don't know if I want to bite yet, though at the same time, killing Shining would provide clarity.

Clarity given by you literally biting on the bait here!

And the worst part is the elims can just let the villagers themselves convince each other to lynch me and don't even need to work that hard

Edit: No that's not the worst part. The worst part is how well the elims set themselves up and used my chillness last cycle against me cause now it looks like I had an escape plan all along. Like what the heck if a guy is chill with dying you don't gotta use that against him. Either kill him then or don't kill him later

Edited November 30, 2022 by Ookla the Debonair

[The Bookwyrm]

I'm so confused.

I'll admit, Silhouette getting saved is somewhat suspicious.

Where did all the Xino votes come from last cycle? And what was their justification?

People keep making trains, and I must not be paying attention, because they seem to come out of storming nowhere.

I'm having a hard time reading people based on actual evidence this game....

[Shining Silhouette]

Just now, Ookla the Perpetual said:

I'll admit, Silhouette getting saved is somewhat suspicious.

But that's the point!

1 minute ago, Ookla the Perpetual said:

Where did all the Xino votes come from last cycle? And what was their justification?

I don't know! I only voted Xino cause attempted self-pres

I suppose if I wanna live I gotta propose a counter-candidate

Off the top of my head, Fadran is no longer all green for me. I find his vote justification strange- maybe he's tunnelling on me but idk. I guess I should do a reread and find a real one relatively soon

[Ashbringer]

Any exe this cycle should be based on a suspicion. I’m not voting until I find one. Because as far as I can tell all three trains last cycle were for reasons of pressure or for voting Fifth for pressure.

Actually, no. Can everyone go back to their C2 votes and explain why they did them? Because there were so many without one.

[Fifth Scholar]

I may or may not sit down to write up a full condemnation tonight but I will say for the present that an elim team which does not include Shining requires a lot more tinfoil than I am comfortable with. I'll throw Wizard and Bookwyrm on that team for good measure. There are simply no better groupings of Sith than I can see.

[DrakeMarshall]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Debonair said:

I mean there are plenty of reasons you shouldn't kill me. :3 

Why should you kill me? We have more time before the end of this cycle and we can discuss.

Is it really just because of my Fifth vote? And cause the elims saved me so they could set up an ML? Yes this could be scripted planning what I'm saying right now and I'm sure there are people who think that, but don't you think that I'm being too suspicious to be suspicious?

Like the Fifth vote stands out so obviously why would I ever draw more attention to myself when I already had two votes that cycle? And I haven't gotten thread support from my 'teammates' besides Wiz and Bookwyrms and I don't believe people have been trying to case us as e/e. 

If you take a step back you'll see this was the elims taking the opportunity of having just enough vote manip to kill a real villager and then have another one all ready for the next cycle. Elims, that was well played- maybe I shouldn't have voted Xino and given you that opportunity.

Clarity given by you literally biting on the bait here!

And the worst part is the elims can just let the villagers themselves convince each other to lynch me and don't even need to work that hard

So, I don't recall anyone clarifying that it was the elims who saved you

You haven't really shown your work for assuming that. And it hasn't really been asserted in the thread, for it to be an idea that you picked up and repeated, either. Matrim said the opposite by calling attention to the fact that we can't know for sure, and Devotary said it was most likely the elims (which I'd tend to agree with) but was also careful about considering that it could have been the Jedi.

Care to explain?

 

You are also correct that I don't really love your vote of Fifth, and any credit you may or may not have gotten by being too suspicious to be suspicious evaporated when you self-awarely tried to draw my attention to the fact that you were being too suspicious to be suspicious

 

...even if we set those things aside, and take a step back like you said:

The way I see it, we have an IKYK on our hands here.

According to you, the main possibilities are that either you're an eliminator of some kind, or you're a normal villager being framed.

In my mind, it is very possible that you are being framed. But if we don't have pretty good reasons to suggest you're being framed, if your alignment is anything close to being a 50/50 coin toss, then I am pretty sure it is strongly in the village's best interest to call the bluff and execute you.

...if only because of the simple calculus that there are less eliminators than villagers. A dead eliminator is a bigger deal than a dead villager. If we killed one villager for every Sith we killed, we would win in two cycles. So if the odds are 50/50 between your being framed and your being evil? I'll roll those dice any day.

Another way to put it: a priori, the probability that I'd assign to any random player being an eliminator is somewhere in the ballpark of 25% at the start of the game. Maybe it's 30% now, because some villagers have died, raising the odds that a survivor is evil. So if you are 50% an eliminator, 50% a villager, that is still well above the average.

Another way to put it: if the eliminators stopped you from dying, maybe there are complicated head games at work, but I think the simplest possible application of "if your enemy wants something you should keep them from getting it" is that the bad guys took action to keep you alive so we should do the opposite.

All of this goes to say, reasonable doubt sadly isn't a good enough reason not to vote for you Unless you can make a case that "the eliminators are manipulating us into executing a villager" is actually significantly more likely than "the eliminators are trying to save eliminator!Silhouette", I'm afraid I will be voting for you, because even with very reasonable doubt, you are still the least bad vote.

 

Feelsbad a little, I mean regardless of what team you're on it's a teeny bit of a drag to get voted up two turns in a row trolling the village makes it a much more rewarding experience in my experience but without further ado

Spoiler

Shining Silhouette.

Edited November 30, 2022 by DrakeMarshall
typo

[The Wandering Wizard]

1 hour ago, Ashbringer said:

Actually, no. Can everyone go back to their C2 votes and explain why they did them? Because there were so many without one.

I had a village read of Shining over a null read of Xino and my theory that Shining is less quippy when he's evil. I very well may be proven wrong next cycle.

I desperately need another re-read of Shining, but I probably won't have the time. I'll probably end up making the time though, even though I shouldn't.

Drake you make a convincing argument, but I'm going to need to re-read and convince myself to cross the line.

[Shining Silhouette]

1 hour ago, Fifth Scholar said:

I may or may not sit down to write up a full condemnation tonight but I will say for the present that an elim team which does not include Shining requires a lot more tinfoil than I am comfortable with. I'll throw Wizard and Bookwyrm on that team for good measure. There are simply no better groupings of Sith than I can see.

Are you really saying on Cycle 3 of an eighteen player game that you can't see an elim team that doesn't have me on it? Seriously?

And can you give me more than that? What's suspicious about what I've been doing besides a playstyle difference? I feel like lately people always e read me based on my tone—if you look at the previous like four V!Silho games I've played, it's mentioned all the time. I'll edit in examples shortly.

Is it that I wasn't as engaged as I was in previous games? My family was driving back on a twenty hour drive both Saturday and Sunday and the time I could find to play SE I spent on a multi-hour reads list in LG91 then lazily voted Turtle.

The other thing is the moved vote from Me to Szeth. Like doesn't that make it obvious that they're trying to ML me?

Like I get it if there are a couple people who e read me—honestly for me that's really common. But I really don't think my behavior last cycle warranted FIVE votes.

19 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

So, I don't recall anyone clarifying that it was the elims who saved you

You haven't really shown your work for assuming that. And it hasn't really been asserted in the thread, for it to be an idea that you picked up and repeated, either. Matrim said the opposite by calling attention to the fact that we can't know for sure, and Devotary said it was most likely the elims (which I'd tend to agree with) but was also careful about considering that it could have been the Jedi.

Care to explain?

Sure. I always did get in trouble in school for not showing work

Given that I haven't had any stalwart defenders (the ones who did have subsequently expressed doubt) I just assumed it was the elims.

 

*sigh*

I've just spent the last hour attempting to do a VC analysis which I never do anyway but I'm barely halfway through and I'm exhausted and if people will vote me out anyway then there's not much of a point. And my analysis probably wouldn't even help the village much anyway after my demise.

19 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Unless you can make a case that "the eliminators are manipulating us into executing a villager" is actually significantly more likely than "the eliminators are trying to save eliminator!Silhouette", I'm afraid I will be voting for you, because even with very reasonable doubt, you are still the least bad vote.

I can't honestly make that case with the info I have. Whichever ones of you are elims here's one less vote you need.

Shining Silhouette

Edit: I'm not a quitter actually. I'm trimming down my more ambitious analysis and redoing it with quick comments on votes on me. Double posting Edit2: Actually I'll just edit it in  if there aren't posters

Edited November 30, 2022 by Ookla the Debonair

[DrakeMarshall]

2 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Actually, no. Can everyone go back to their C2 votes and explain why they did them? Because there were so many without one.

I voted for Wizard because their Szeth vote felt like a list of all of the reasons that had previous come up, without a lot of evidence of effort spent assessing those reasons.

I retracted from Wizard because they gave a villagery sounding defense.

I voted for Silhouette because Matrim suggested it, I wasn't the biggest fan of the Fifth/Xino dichotomy and Silhouette had a vote on Fifth, and also because we had two trains spring up not long after Silhouette had attracted some votes and I wanted to gauge the pushback to putting Silhouette on the spot again.

I retracted from Silhouette since nobody else was voting for them.

I voted for Turtle mostly just to see if people would show willingness to vote Turtle, tbh. Apparently the answer was "no." This is a little weird in retrospect since Turtle was also an attack target.

I voted for Silhouette when it became an option again, this time at Xino's solicitation.

34 minutes ago, Ookla the Debonair said:

Edit: I'm not a quitter actually. I'm trimming down my more ambitious analysis and redoing it with quick comments on votes on me. Double posting Edit2: Actually I'll just edit it in  if there aren't posters

Good on ya mate *salutes*

If you aren't an eliminator, posting good analysis is probably both the best way to still help the village and the best way to possibly convince that you aren't an eliminator

[Shining Silhouette]

Just kidding! Double posting, because I have stuff to say! Edit: Thanks Drake

Spoiler

 

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Shining, ha! Now my vote does something! :D.

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Shining (1): Mat

It starts with a Mat vote on me, carried from the previous cycle because of question in regards to my inactivity.

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Shining Silhouette

for the time being I'm going to assume the vote manip was an amateur move and go from there.

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Shining (2): Mat, Fadran

Fadran votes me because he thinks the manip was a possible amateur E!Silho move

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Silhouette

Someone manip’d a vote off of them for seemingly no reason. I’m pulling out now because…

 

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Shining (1): Mat, Fadran

Quickly, though, he changes his mind, thinking that there wasn't actually manip and so that clears me.

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Sure, let's give it a whirl!

Shining Silhouette yous stand accused of... I don't remember

Probably something though

Pretend I have something super clever to say here

Oh, wait, I know

You stand accused of the fact that there was a train on you earlier and once it happened a bunch of votes appear out of nowhere on Fifth and that's circumstantially a little bit weird

Also your D1 voting choice makes it hard to read you

How do you plea?????????????????

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Shining (2): Mat, Drake Fadran 

Drake votes me after Mat asks for a Shining wagon because of my questionable vote on Fifth

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Shining Silhouette, xinoehp512

I don’t know how good the xino train is but I know the Fifth one isn’t very. And you’ve officially pushed my brain into that being enough to switch. (Sorry Drake, we can chase Shining tomorrow if we want :eyes:)

 

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Shining (1): Mat, Drake Fadran 

Mat unvotes me, presumably because I convinced him of my innocence

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And Shining Silhouette doesn't seem like it's an exe either.

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Shining (0): Mat, Drake, Fadran 

Drake also unvotes me, seeing lack of support for the lynch (I wanna go back to these days)

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You know @DrakeMarshall I would much rather vote Shining than Fifth

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Shining (1): Mat, Drake, Fadran, Xino 

Xino votes me, asking Drake to follow

No reason given

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I don't know how I feel about you soliciting this vote specifically from me, but you know what, sure.

Shining Silhouette.

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Shining (2): Mat, Drake, Fadran, Xino, Drake

Drake follows, no specific reason given

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Ultimately, Shining’s votes have seemed actively worse to me than Xino’s, so I will vote there out of the two current options.

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Shining (3): Mat, Drake, Fadran, Xino, Drake, Fifth

Fifth follows, seeing me as worse of the two options 

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xino, Shining. Although the part of me that notices that Shining refuses not to be chill about this doesn’t like it :P.

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Shining (4): Mat, Drake, Fadran, Xino, Drake, Fifth, Mat

Mat follows, no specific reason given.

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I'll put my vote on Shining Silhouette.

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Shining (5): Mat, Drake, Fadran, Xino, Drake, Fifth, Mat, Devo

Devo follows, no specific reason given.

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• I thought you seemed uncharacteristically disengaged (which tbf could just as easily be NAI as it is e!indicative) but also that your voting history wasn’t very good and the reasons you gave I legitimately couldn’t make sense of.
• I mean, yes, but also the way that other trains still are hanging around makes me want to not take this point at face value. If you had become a runaway train, maybe, but you didn’t. xino and Fifth stayed semi in contention.
  • From our PoVs, this is an invalid point :P. But I think I would be surprised if you three were all evil. That’d be far too convenient.
• (Nothing to say here but I won’t break your formula)
  • Sure, but he already had a fair bit :P.
    • Similar to him already having pressure, he’d already reacted to votes, hadn’t he? Like, if that was your plan, I could have told you that piling onto the train would only accrue suspicion.
    • This one’s valid ig
      • Do you think that’s indicative of e!Fifth?
  • I mean I guess but yeah we definitely all took it at face value

Ok I broke your formula but that’s all I have to say

I guess my biggest problem with this train is that, like, you dug your own grave. Which is just bad elim play and I… don’t think you’d do bad elim play tbh. I think the justification at its core comes down to your opportunistic and bandwagony votes and what I felt was unexplained reasons, until now, but now is also sorta too late yknow. 

Mat gives reasons! Yay!

Okay in summary:

The reasons people voted me were:

• Unusually inactivity
• My vote on Fifth
• I'm seen as worse than Xino
• ...And that's it

Like what! If I missed your justification you can @ me but like no one really cased me. People just voted.

Also interesting to think about was that Mat was elim with me my one elim game and said that "I guess my biggest problem with this train is that, like, you dug your own grave. Which is just bad elim play and I… don’t think you’d do bad elim play tbh."

Okay I'm sulked for a bit but I'm not going to give up I realize. 

Shining Silhouette

I genuinely believe that there are better reasons and better people to exe this cycle for the village. Regardless of my alignment. I'm sure there have been people more suspicious than me, and just because I'm the obvious choice cause I was supposed to be exed doesn't mean I should be. Anyway discussion about this is good because it'll allow for more posts to be analysed later game. So even if you want me dead, please just discuss it!   

Also while reading I realized I never clarified myself for Mat.

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Okay so my thing this game apparently is to comment on suspicious things before other people do because that's...less suspicious...? Anyway, go big or go home, eh Mat?

But just so y'all are aware this is not e/e activity

In case you were wondering  

I comprehended zero of those words if I’m being honest

Oh wow I actually made no sense there.

Yeah I was saying that sometimes the best way to defend yourself is to reply to possible comments before they happen and that that was something I was trying out that game. For example when I told everyone that I was lurking but I was only lurking because I was in the middle of class.

And there I was saying that though Bookwyrm was defending me, we're not e/e

 

Edit: Also I will do some more analysis tomorrow and case somebody. I'm just kinda tired now :P.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Ookla the Debonair
stupid format

[Mat]

...Hello active thread how are you. I'm busy, thanks for asking  

4 hours ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

Jedi likely wouldn't do it unless they were extremely sure

I was implying... never mind :P.

3 hours ago, Ookla the [Redacted] said:

Silhouette (vote subject to change)

What was different about this vote that made you clarify that, as opposed to every other vote you've cast this game?

2 hours ago, Ookla the Myopic said:

I'll focus on the three sith manip possibilities

Your analysis is valid, but it's done in a way that suggests it's option one OR two OR three, and I think it just as easily could be all of them. Like, in the case of elim manip, only one did it, but there are multiple elims and theoretically they weren't all voting on the same train :P. If they were trying to save Shining, that could be interpreted multiple ways and it's not really useful to guess which one is more likely so I think we should try to read Shining on tone/posts more than sheer IKYK analysis, if you know what I mean.

3 hours ago, Ookla the Debonair said:

Is it really just because of my Fifth vote? And cause the elims saved me so they could set up an ML? Yes this could be scripted planning what I'm saying right now and I'm sure there are people who think that, but don't you think that I'm being too suspicious to be suspicious?

You saying this instantly made it feel more scripted idk man >>

To suspicious to be suspicious, no. Not really. You might have read like that earlier C2 amidst the chaos but after explaining yourself it sorta seemed like you had just been doing whatever and then were forced to justify it-- and that could go with either alignment. But I wouldn't say you're too sus to be sus.

2 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Any exe this cycle should be based on a suspicion. I’m not voting until I find one. Because as far as I can tell all three trains last cycle were for reasons of pressure or for voting Fifth for pressure.

Actually, no. Can everyone go back to their C2 votes and explain why they did them? Because there were so many without one.

Thank you for this PSA Ash

If I had a nickel... ok. Initially was three-eighths pressure, three-eighths a reaction to his uninterested state, two-eighths joke continuation [approximate measurements] but it sort of turned into a Fifth exe protest vote for a minute there and then I ran out of time to consider xino. Shining didn't do himself any favors along the way which solidified it from its stance as two-eighths joke to 'good enough for me'.

2 hours ago, Fifth Scholar said:

I may or may not sit down to write up a full condemnation tonight but I will say for the present that an elim team which does not include Shining requires a lot more tinfoil than I am comfortable with. I'll throw Wizard and Bookwyrm on that team for good measure. There are simply no better groupings of Sith than I can see.

See but then something like this makes me just want to read Fifth as evil cause like-- I don't know exactly where my read on Shining is, I err on leaning evil, but it really doesn't take that much tinfoil to make him be village and I'm surprised this is your view. So I'm actually with Shining on this one.

1 hour ago, DrakeMarshall said:

In my mind, it is very possible that you are being framed. But if we don't have pretty good reasons to suggest you're being framed, if your alignment is anything close to being a 50/50 coin toss, then I am pretty sure it is strongly in the village's best interest to call the bluff and execute you.

...if only because of the simple calculus that there are less eliminators than villagers. A dead eliminator is a bigger deal than a dead villager. If we killed one villager for every Sith we killed, we would win in two cycles. So if the odds are 50/50 between your being framed and your being evil? I'll roll those dice any day.

Another way to put it: a priori, the probability that I'd assign to any random player being an eliminator is somewhere in the ballpark of 25% at the start of the game. Maybe it's 30% now, because some villagers have died, raising the odds that a survivor is evil. So if you are 50% an eliminator, 50% a villager, that is still well above the average.

I like the rest of your case a lot more than the math part because I dislike probability as a subject just in general the last few times I've argued a point based on math, I was evil :P. That's not to say I read you as evil for this though. I'd just rather not base a vote on math and instead do what Ash said and vote by suspicion.

You clearly aren't doing that though and your case seems fine to me. 

57 minutes ago, Ookla the Debonair said:

The other thing is the moved vote from Me to Szeth. Like doesn't that make it obvious that they're trying to ML me?

I don't see how that's relevant tbh

57 minutes ago, Ookla the Debonair said:

But I really don't think my behavior last cycle warranted FIVE votes.

Did anyone's behavior? Votes have to be cast on someone.

58 minutes ago, Ookla the Debonair said:

Is it that I wasn't as engaged as I was in previous games? My family was driving back on a twenty hour drive both Saturday and Sunday and the time I could find to play SE I spent on a multi-hour reads list in LG91 then lazily voted Turtle.

Fair enough. I myself was also driving for all of Saturday.

59 minutes ago, Ookla the Debonair said:

Shining Silhouette

Nooooo I abhor self voting like this ._.

23 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

I voted for Turtle mostly just to see if people would show willingness to vote Turtle, tbh. Apparently the answer was "no." This is a little weird in retrospect since Turtle was also an attack target.

Are you sure you weren't just testing to see if this was a viable kill target? :eyes:

23 minutes ago, Ookla the Debonair said:

Mat unvotes me, presumably because I convinced him of my innocence

Point of order: I wasn't unvoting you because of anything you did, I unvoted you to vote for xino in opposition of the completely baseless Fifth train.

25 minutes ago, Ookla the Debonair said:

Mat gives reasons! Yay!

Like am I just imagining all the other times I did or did the rest of the thread get collective amnesia I don't understand--

26 minutes ago, Ookla the Debonair said:

Also interesting to think about was that Mat was elim with me my one elim game and said that "I guess my biggest problem with this train is that, like, you dug your own grave. Which is just bad elim play and I… don’t think you’d do bad elim play tbh."

Interesting in what way? Because yes, I do have that faith in you-- but I guess I also think a world where less active e!you, because of IRL circumstances is possible. You'd have opted to vibe, it backfired, you then had to dig yourself out of a hole. As is with many things that world works with v!you too so idk.

22 minutes ago, Ookla the Debonair said:

Shining Silhouette

Oh good

29 minutes ago, Ookla the Debonair said:

I genuinely believe that there are better reasons and better people to exe this cycle for the village. Regardless of my alignment. I'm sure there have been people more suspicious than me

Who? Not a rhetorical question, by the way-- genuinely interested to hear what you think. Who was more suspicious, why, etc? I'll do my own reread and see what I think but Drake's right in that analysis from you is more likely to show you're village if you are, than repeated defense would. I remember the specific game I had to learn that. But I'm not dead set on you or anything and if we come up with a different candidate that's fine with me.

31 minutes ago, Ookla the Debonair said:

Oh wow I actually made no sense there.

Yeah I was saying that sometimes the best way to defend yourself is to reply to possible comments before they happen and that that was something I was trying out that game. For example when I told everyone that I was lurking but I was only lurking because I was in the middle of class.

And there I was saying that though Bookwyrm was defending me, we're not e/e

Yeah you really didn't :P.

But this makes sense, I guess. The downside to the strategy is that it also serves to point out said suspicious things. Like, no one would have noticed you were lurking (but your absence was on my mind) but once you pointed it out, negative attention. There's a case to be made here that's like, why would e!you draw that attention? And I guess I'd say, yes, or just that e!you didn't consider that. Idk.

Trying out the above strategy, I see

...And that multiquote turned out way longer than intended. Sorry-not-sorry  

[Channelknight Fadran]

Ah heck. I forgot to follow the thread. What’d I miss? 

[Shining Silhouette]

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

I don't see how that's relevant tbh

I was thinking like it's just another weird thing going on with me this game but yeah it's not particularly relevant

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

Nooooo I abhor self voting like this ._.

Yeah honestly pretty bad move on my part

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

Point of order: I wasn't unvoting you because of anything you did, I unvoted you to vote for xino in opposition of the completely baseless Fifth train.

You see I was tracking all  votes in my original post and I would've caught that—but I'm a really slow writer so I just decided to focus on votes on me.

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

Like am I just imagining all the other times I did or did the rest of the thread get collective amnesia I don't understand--

You explained yourself fine; I meant that in the context of like the three other voters in a row who didn't explain themselves

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

Interesting in what way? Because yes, I do have that faith in you-- but I guess I also think a world where less active e!you, because of IRL circumstances is possible. You'd have opted to vibe, it backfired, you then had to dig yourself out of a hole. As is with many things that world works with v!you too so idk.

Interesting in that I want the thread to see it interesting

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

Who? Not a rhetorical question, by the way-- genuinely interested to hear what you think. Who was more suspicious, why, etc? I'll do my own reread and see what I think but Drake's right in that analysis from you is more likely to show you're village if you are, than repeated defense would. I remember the specific game I had to learn that. But I'm not dead set on you or anything and if we come up with a different candidate that's fine with me.

Okay. My thoughts after looking through the posts were surely there had to be another candidate who was just as suspicious but not as apparent out of principle. Because there definitely must have been an elim slip somewhere, and since it wasn't me (haha well not an elim slip) we should be able to find it.

I'll analyse/post reads tomorrow I promise I'm just a little wiped out right now

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

But this makes sense, I guess. The downside to the strategy is that it also serves to point out said suspicious things. Like, no one would have noticed you were lurking (but your absence was on my mind) but once you pointed it out, negative attention. There's a case to be made here that's like, why would e!you draw that attention? And I guess I'd say, yes, or just that e!you didn't consider that. Idk.

Interesting things to think about for sure. You're right, it does have downsides

3 minutes ago, Ookla the [Redacted] said:

Ah heck. I forgot to follow the thread. What’d I miss? 

Basically people are suspicious of me cause I was saved and V!Xino killed

And I've been attempting to defend myself

[Channelknight Fadran]

Well, I’m already voting for you, soooo

[Kasimir]

Another set of flimsis plastered to the noticeboard of the Drunk Side:

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BETTER-THAN-MOFF!

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Silho (3): Fadran, Fifth, Drake, 

Breaking this style. Major GM Announcement as I have noticed some player confusion on this front!

Please be aware that as written, the rules for Force Lightning and Force Sense do not allow the ability to be used twice in a row! It does not matter who you targeted previously. The ability cannot be repeated twice in a row, you have a cooldown!

While this is a breach in my usual 'Don't Ask, Don't Get' GMing style, I have noticed enough player confusion on this score that I think this needs to be proactively clarified! I am aware that some of the rule clarifications give the impression that Force Sense works like the modified Tyrian Lurcher. It does not. 

To explain how a redirect works with the cooldown: it doesn't. You can't redirect a player with an ability cooldown unless they are using a different ability, because cooldown means, "No can do, no can use," means that the redirect will not even be targeting a legal action in the first place.

My apologies for my own confusion about the matter: this is my fault for copying the Lurch directly from MR2 and forgetting to do a sanity check to make sure it was properly explained. 

To be clear one more time:

There are no protect/roleblock limitations in terms of target. Hypothetically, you could keep protecting or using Lightning on Wyrm every legal Turn. What you cannot do is to use the ability twice in a row.

Incidentally, I should note there are target limitations on a successful Force Drain on an unprotected target:

He's dead, Jim! You can't make him deader! There are no zombies in this game despite the Plague Trooper books! (For legal reasons, this paragraph and the previous one are simultaneously a joke and a statement of the obvious.)

[Madagascar]

Hmmm. What this party needs, do you know? More wild accusations, is what I think.

Alvron, death stick do you want? Made with Real Death(tm)*, they are. What are you up to? Maybe trying to KILL US ALL?

Moff would like to announce that available the Rancor is available for pony rides, thanks to Moff's good friend and dealer Jubba the Hutt. Aware all partygoers should be that the Rancor has many death sticks eaten.

[Channelknight Fadran]

“The heck is a pony?”

[Madagascar]

Some kinda exotic, foul-smelling tauntaun tamed by a giant, barbarian race on a muddy little planet long long ago in a galaxy far, far away, think I do. If remember my Intergalactic Zoology classes from Jedi Academy correctly I am.

(Kicked out of Intergalactic Zoology for smoking death sticks in the back of the class, I was, though, so wrong I could be on that.)

[DrakeMarshall]

9 hours ago, Ookla the Tall said:

Who? Not a rhetorical question, by the way-- genuinely interested to hear what you think. Who was more suspicious, why, etc? I'll do my own reread and see what I think but Drake's right in that analysis from you is more likely to show you're village if you are, than repeated defense would. I remember the specific game I had to learn that. But I'm not dead set on you or anything and if we come up with a different candidate that's fine with me.

It should most likely surprise absolutely no one that I particularly agree with the sentiment of the paragraph that includes "Drake's right"

I get not having enough time to make the posts you want, but I also don't think it necessarily does Shining any favors that at least so far, they have spent their limited amount of time on multiple self-defense posts and zero posts focused on analysis of other players.

I'm not 100% committed to a Shining train, since it is my habit to not be 100% committed to any train if the cycle hasn't actually ended yet. If there's somebody more suspicious, I'll vote for them, but I think I might have a slightly stronger elim!read on Shining than you do.

 

I would like to take a moment to acknowledge that as per usual the small green drug-dealing alien is offering sage advice:

4 hours ago, Madagascar said:

Hmmm. What this party needs, do you know? More wild accusations, is what I think.

Discussing the Shining train is great and all my personal preference is that it does get the most attention this cycle tbh but like we can multitask

And besides, as of posting this only 4 people have weighed in and voted. I do not think this is the best state of affairs for the village, seeing as it means less to analyze and more room for vote manipulation. I aint gonna tell you how to vote, but please do learn from Mad's example and vote somehow

My vote stays put, but what I can do for the sake of discussion is share a reads list.

I have a well-established track record of sharing only super 100% serious reads lists in this game

JNV - Neutral
Ashbringer - Slight village
Matrim - Slight village
Devotary - Village
Hael - GIZKA MURDERER *cough* I mean, Neutral
Wizard - Slight elim
Bookwyrm - Slight elim
Fifth - Village
Silhouette - Elim
Madgascar - Slight village
Fadran - Neutral
Turtle - Village
Alvron - Neutral

Edited December 1, 2022 by DrakeMarshall
i have elected to remove my reads list from a spoiler tab, so that you all can see the pretty colors and have your frail mortal attentions ensnared by the aesthetics, such that you will have no choice but to read my reads list and form opinions about it

[Haelbarde]

12 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Any exe this cycle should be based on a suspicion. I’m not voting until I find one. Because as far as I can tell all three trains last cycle were for reasons of pressure or for voting Fifth for pressure.

Actually, no. Can everyone go back to their C2 votes and explain why they did them? Because there were so many without one.

Explanation: I was suspicious of the unnecessary chaos that Xino caused that resulted in Szeth being executed, while not being a fan of the Fifth bandwagon which seemed to have little foundation. Didn't have much reason to shift if afterward when players joined in. The other main option being Silhouette/Debonair which didn't seem to have all that great foundation either. 

---

Paranoid Statement: I would like to see more from Alvron, who while quite the experienced player, has yet to vote or contribute any game related discussion. I would consider voting them, but I feel like there should be more to go on from those contributing more so I'll hold off on joining Madagascar. 

---

Weary Statement: My processing units require some maintenace, so I will return later once I have had an opportunity to recharge.

[Madagascar]

Hmmmmm. Is an option there to line, like, five people up in a row and lightsaber them all down the middle to see what comes out, and then their eviscerated bodies use as sleeping bags to keep out the increasingly chilly December weather? Everybody wins, that way.

except the people who die, suppose I do.

 

[DrakeMarshall]

Dr. Dacken Humtumb finally turned tail and ran for his life, panting heavily.

It looked like the terentek would be the dark-tauntaun winner of the sabacc pot. Shame. Dacken had felt like he had a strong hand. It was a well-known fact that there was always a bigger fish, though. It was clearly time to fold.

Where did the beast even come from? The thick carapace, powerful build, claws, and tusks... It certainly cut an imposing figure, especially covered in blood. Was it perhaps a native creature to the hostile environment of Korriban? Why had it killed poor Nodice?? Hopefully it didn't eat gizka. Hopefully it didn't eat Dacken Humtumbs either, for that matter. He slammed a door behind him to put something between himself and it, not that it was likely to slow the critter down much.

"I don't suppose you talk?"

Might as well double-check, in between gasping for breath and making an impromptu tactical retreat. The galaxy was full of all sorts.

From the other side of the door, it sounded like the terentek was running, but not towards Dacken, which all things considered was extraordinarily lucky.

[Kasimir]

Alright. More GM clarifications in plainspeak because player confusion continues:

• Force Sense and Force Lightning are essentially abilities with a cooldown. The only thing I check for when determining if a player can send in a Force Sense / Force Lightning order is whether they've sent one on the previous term. Suppose Wyrm and Ashiok are both Jedi. As long as neither Wyrm nor Ash have sent in Force Sense on C1, they can send in Force Sense orders jointly on C2. Similarly, suppose Meta and Sart are both Desann Reborn. As long as neither Meta nor Sart have sent in Force Lightning orders on C2, they can both send in Force Lightning orders on C3.
   
• The only abilities in this game that are restricted to 'only one player can send this in at a time' are the unique abilities of the Jedi and the Desann Reborn: recruitment and Force Drain. Only at most one Reborn can send in a Force Drain order at a time, just as at most only one Jedi can recruit at a time. (I know this is not an elegant solution, but imagine this game if Jedi could breed recruit...like gizka :eyes: )
   
• Any Cultist appointed as a successor to a fallen Desann Reborn does not themselves become Desann Reborn. Their accession also cannot be roleblocked. Look, let's spell it out as a concrete scenario. Suppose that Meta and Sart are both Desann Reborn, and Meta goes and gets himself killed C2. (This actually happened in the original MR2 which this game reruns, FYI.) Joe and Tulir are their Cultists. On the next cycle, I will automatically go to the Elim team and basically say, "K, look, Meta's dead now, y'all decide which Cultist will send in the kill now." As soon as they pick him, he'll immediately get access to the kill. (In a one Cultist world, this is a formality.) Don't think of this as an in-game mechanic you can substantively interfere with: think of it as a simple way to keep the logic that the Elims should get kill access without being overly mech-locked. The anointed Cultist does not become Reborn and does not count to their wincon and does not acquire any new powers beyond the ability to kill and any other powers a Jedi may have generously given them.

[DrakeMarshall]

10 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

The anointed Cultist does not become Reborn and does not count to their wincon and does not acquire any new powers beyond the ability to kill and any other powers a Jedi may have generously given them.

Well, that's good news.

The stuff I said at the start of the game about the number of cultists not mattering that much and it being anywhere from 1-4 tbh? I take back taking it back it is relevant again

[Mat]

4 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

I get not having enough time to make the posts you want, but I also don't think it necessarily does Shining any favors that at least so far, they have spent their limited amount of time on multiple self-defense posts and zero posts focused on analysis of other players.

I guess I’m forced to see that as NAI thought as I once spent a village game only defending myself to the extreme instead of analyzing and it got me killed. So if I were to use that as evidence, it’d be hypocritical.