Shallan's Relationship

[DeployParachute]

There were several days between coming back from the chasms and the expedition, more than enough time to find a way to spare a few minutes on someone who's important to you.

Shallan could have checked on Kaladin before departing to the Shattered Plains to see how he was. Or at least ask someone about his health.

There was time for Kaladin and Shallan to talk to each other in Urithiru, for her to wish him luck or at least say anything nice to him before he went to race the everstorm. I think Shallan would have said something to Kaladin if she indeed cared for him, she's not that shy and the moment was socially appropriate. But she didn't.

Negative, Ghostrider, you have your timeline mixed up. WoR hardback edition, Chapter 75 "True Glory". In this chapter, Dalinar's forces are already preparing for the march. In p884-886: Dalinar is sprinting to where Shallan and Kaladin are after having been informed of their survival. After this scene ends on p886, Shallan's perspective takes over, and the very first sentence is "One hour later, Shallan snuggled into a nest of warm blankets." So an hour time, and Shallan is bathed and recovering. during the next few pages, she has Pattern spy on Dalinar and Navani, reuinites with Adolin, and convinces Dalinar to take her along.886-891. At the end of p891, Dalinar declares "Gather your things and send word to your uncle Sebarial, Brightness. We're leaving within the hour. Without parshmen." This concludes part 4.

So, we have at maximum, a 2 hour separation between the time that Kaladin and Shallan leave each other's company, to the departure of the army for the plains, of which Kaladin is of course not participating. An hour of that time was involved with her recovering, bathing, and securing her position on the expedition. She also has the expected reunion with Adolin. So there is not a major gap of time here in which a failure to check on Kaladin's "health" would be an indicator of a lack of caring or concern. I mean, she just left a tent full of surgeons swarming all over him, and he was being bundled off by bridge 4 back to their barracks. I think she was right in assuming he was going to be okay long enough for her to get some of the other priorities taken care of. I don't think your argument here holds water, but let's continue...

Part 5 begins with Chapter 76 viewpoint Kaladin on page 921, on it we see "After showering him with praise and enthusiasm, the men of Bridge Four had gone to join the army for its expedition...". Again, we have more confirmation on the short amount of time that passed between Shal and Kal arriving and the army departing. Chapter 76 is, of course, an oft quoted chapter by Shalladin shippers, as it contains the little nuggets of glimpses into Shallan's updated feelings on Kaladin, as well as his new feelings for her. p928 "Kaladin found himself standing up amid the bridgemen, despite the pain of his leg, as he noticed Adolin and Shallan riding past." p929: "She looked gorgeous. Kaladin was willing to admit it, if only to himself." Now Shallan doesn't see Kaladin before leaving like he sees her, but she does think about him in the next chapter on p936, i'll spare you the quote, as I'm sure you're tired of reading it.

So, very short timespan, likely less than 2 hours between their arrival back at the warcamps and the army's departure. Shallan does not go out of her way to track Kaladin down to check on him, but then again...why would she need to? She just saw him, he was safe, mostly whole, and on his way to bed rest, while she had just succeeded on planting herself on mission with a clear goal she needed to accomplish. Despite all that, she does spare some time thinking about him, and that to me is significant from a story development perspective.

So let's talk Urithuru:

Again, let's start with the timelines. Chapter 87 "The Riddens", p 1048, Kaladin ends his perspective with teleporting to Urithiru, and we pick up with Shallan. During Kaladin's fight, the survivors of the battle have already started to explore the tower, spearheaded by Adolin. How long did it take Kaladin to dispose of Szeth and travel back to the gate after the army teleported away? An hour? Two, let's say two and be generous. Same chapter p1050, Kaladin returns, and shows off his mastery of Gravity, and everyone sees that he is not only fine, he is fully healed from his stormlight. So again, no reason for her to worry about his health or any issues like that. Next Chapter, 88 "The Man Who Owned The Winds", starts off with "They soon began to move into the tower. There was nothing else they could do...Night was approaching, and the temperature was dropping outside." So same day as their arrival, and in this chapter, they have had a couple hours of exploration after their arrival, followed by Shallan's encounter with Mraize, and her and Adolin prior to her entering her bedchamber for the night. Again, not a significant amount of time in my mind that would make me question her caring levels for Kaladin. She has several things going on, and rightly so, she ensures a visit with Adolin first. I mean, they are betrothed and all.

After Chapter 89 "The Four" takes place a week after 88. p1066 "A week had passed since they had arrived at this place, and the people of the warcamps had finally started to arrive..."

So a whole week, and I will admit that that is a significant amount of time for interactions between characters to happen. Unfortunately, since there is nothing written describing those events, we can only guess as to what the characters may have been up to and who had been talking to whom (is that usage right? summon the grammar nazis). Maybe Kaladin and Shallan did have a couple of chats, maybe they didn't. Maybe Kaladin and Adolin sat down for a nice game of cards. Maybe Rock was caught dancing naked and drunk out on a terrace singing about the virtues of Horneater lager. So yes, you are right that we have no written evidence as to a follow up interaction between Kaladin and Shallan at Urithiru, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have happened, and in fact I believe it was very likely they interacted. Brandon either didn't have the time/space in the novel to show it, or he didn't feel it was important at this time.

So now we get to the part of your argument that I think has some merit.

After my read of WoR and before the release of the SA3 teaser, I had assumed that we would get a scene between Shallan and Kaladin before Kaladin's departure, and it doesn't seem as though that happened. I would expect that to continue subtly developing a secondary romantic plot, we would need to continue having interactions between Kaladin and Shallan so that their characters have a reason to be fresh in each others mind. Especially prior to a big separation. So... unless Brandon writes into one of their future chapters a reflection on an interaction that could have taken place during the aforementioned week in Urithiru, I think we have seen the end of Shallan and Kaladin for now. Thought that does not mean they won't happen, Brandon will just have to write some more scenes in which sparks fly between the two. And all this is fine by me, as it means that we won't be dealing with Kaladin encroaching on Shallan and Adolin while they are still dating, we have a more subtle triangle if it even exists at all, and we have a good setup for character development and growth for Shallan and Adolin, as they both need time to develop a relationship, so that it can be broken.

Edited July 23, 2014 by DeployParachute

[Prince of Ravens]

DeployParachute I love how you concluded your post and I agree with you.

 

I voted for Shallan and Jasnah just because I am pervy like that and because no one else voted for it. But I think I could ship Kaladin and Shallan just fine. Bubbly and shiny on one side and grim and cold on other side.

[DeployParachute]

DeployParachute I love how you concluded your post and I agree with you.

 

I voted for Shallan and Jasnah just because I am pervy like that and because no one else voted for it. But I think I could ship Kaladin and Shallan just fine. Bubbly and shiny on one side and grim and cold on other side.

 

Thanks for the support, but now, thanks to TheBrian, I'm actually considering moving my vote to Stick, because Stick doesn't deserve to be alone...

 

...

 

... now I've gone and made myself sad.

[The Shadow]

New thoughts and points, thanks for sharing.  Here are some of my thoughts triggered by what you have written.

 

1.  I'll preface this by saying that everyone has had many different experiences than me relationship wise, and I'm by no means claiming to be an expert.  That being said,  it has never seemed that in my own relationships or those of my close friends and family in which a successful, long lasting romantic relationship was shared between two people who had very little in common.  Not saying it's impossible, just that I have not seen it, so I remain skeptical.

 

2.  Escapes are nice, but constantly being in a state of avoidance of one's problems doesn't seem like a very appealing way to approach life or relationships long term to me.  And I would disagree that Shallan is "at ease" with Adolin.  Every interaction she has with Adolin is very carefully thought out, controlled, measured, calculated.  Throughout the book she is constantly thinking about how to keep him interested in her, how not to hold on too tight that she pushes him away (compares that behavior to how her father treated her), how she needs to say the right things.  With Kaladin, she does not worry about what he thinks of her, nor what she says to him.  She says what's on her mind, and doesn't worry about what he thinks about it.  Talk about being able to be oneself versus not.  And Kaladin in turn responds very well to her real thoughts, feelings, and personality.

 

3.  Sure Shallan defends those she doesn't necessarily care for.  Don't think you could call the deserters she picked up in the plains people she particularly "cared" for, but she still defended their potential to be honorable men.  She also defended the men that attacked her and Jasnah in WoK, reprimanding Jasnah for taking such harsh actions.  Shallan strikes me as someone who doesn't like people being bullied (as she and her family had been bullied by her father).  Kaladin was being an chull, during the scene you reference, plain and simple.  It seemed to me that Shallan was responding to that and calling him out on his crap and hypocrisy, more so than any particular need to defend Adolin.  Now I'm not saying she doesn't care for Adolin, I just don't think her defending him is evidence for those feelings.  Nor do I feel her defense of Adolin is an indicator of her lack of interest or caring for Kaladin.  She cares about a lot of people, and I feel confident in saying that Kaladin is, at least, a part of that subset.

 

4.  The fact that arranged marriages is Brandon's "usual" leads me to believe the opposite of your own conclusion: it is time to diverge, and I feel the writing up to this point supports that.  See my 3rd point to hurricaneez.

 

Again, thank you both for sharing, I always enjoy shipping conversations.

 

Thanks for your response. I also enjoy shipping debates (So long as they don't turn into war, which thankfully it hasn't *Has PTSD Flashbacks To The Harry Potter Boards*)

 

TL:DR response- You're right, many of my points are equally good evidence against my sides as they are for it.

 

Specifically:

 

1. You're right, commonalities are important, but in my experience (which is neither universal or gospel) connection is more important. The ability to be comfortable with each other. True, commonalities helps, but it's not everything.

2. At the beginning, I'll grant you. I really do think that after the defecation conversation, Shallan was able to relax and be herself around him. Her maneuvering worked as planned, but he took it (mostly) in stride and now she knows he accepts her, unladylike behavior and all.

 

3. Face, meet hand. Yeah, I didn't think that one through as well as I did. My only excuse is that I wrote that at 2am.

That said, I think there is a difference between all three examples. She owed the deserters and she seeing someone killed will horrify most people. And yes, Kaladin was being a chull, but what he said was no worse than anything she said. Maybe the way he hid is what set her off, but I think it's a sign that she cares for him that she defended something she herself would do (not that this is the only example of her hypocrisy in the book).

 

4.True. The thought had occurred (It also occurred to me that I'm a storming airsick lowlander for saying Vivenna/Susebron were an example of a successful arranged marriage. Siri, Shadow. Get it together, man!)

 

It's going to come down to which twist Sanderson goes with (I really think Adolin and Kadalin are her only real choices). He can either subvert his theme and go with the traditional main guy/main girl, or he can go with the latter and subvert the form.

 

Seeing as how he likes to play with expectations, that may be the best evidence that she'll be with someone else.

[Quiver]

You know, Shallan was pretty much my favorite point of view characetr in Way of Kings. Maybe it's because I happened to pick up the book shortly after graduation, and the Shallan/Jasnah scholarship storyline really struck a chord with me. I admit, upon my first read through, my immediate reaction to it was the old "main characters of opposite genders? Looks like Shalladin is happening", and that was something which bothered me, because I felt like it was an overdone trope.

 

Frankly... I was more or less convinced of Shallarin as the future ship, on the strength of Feathers essays about it. And it remains, probably, my preferred Shallan ship, since I really, really, really hope that Jasnah' dislike of marriage, her comments to Shallan about it etc aren't setting her up as a lesbian. Personally, my head canon for Jasnah is that she is is asexual; baring that, if she does turn out to be a straight female, I want her and Kaladin to at least have some scenes together. 

(And if you're curious... if Jasnah was a lesbian, I guess I'd be fine with it. I would just prefer it if she was a character who was opposed to marriage and thew herself into study because those were her passions, not because she isn't interested in men.) 

 

So... I guess I'm not voting? I dislike the possibility of a love triangle. I dislike Shalladin, because that seems too cliché. I dislike Shadolin because I'm not convinced it's going to work out in the end (though I prefer that to Shalladin). I dislike Shasnah because it interferes with my preferred perceptions of Jasnah's character.

And I dislike Shallarin because, as much as I liked teasing Feather and imagining her groans when Shallan insulted him... they really don't seem like a compatible couple anymore. Or at least, not right now.

[theravenchilde]

YES THERE IS A JASNAH OPTION NOW.

 

[pitches flag proudly bc this is not a pervy ship and I really don't understand why someone would vote for this to be pervy bc this ship is perfect This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules are you doing and why would you say that like that]

[Prince of Ravens]

YES THERE IS A JASNAH OPTION NOW.

 

[pitches flag proudly bc this is not a pervy ship and I really don't understand why someone would vote for this to be pervy bc this ship is perfect This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules are you doing and why would you say that like that ]

Because I know my self and in my head it's pervy as hell.

[theravenchilde]

I'm....................................... just gonna sit here and make [????????] faces at you bc I literally do not understand what direction you're coming from.

Edited July 25, 2014 by theravenchilde

[Prince of Ravens]

I'm....................................... just gonna sit here and make [????????] faces at you bc I literally do not understand what direction you're coming from.

And I am just gonna sit here and roll my eyes. It was a joke. Not very good one, I admit,but seriously. I was joking on my account. Can't even quote my self since post got deleted. I guess confessing that your personal reason for voting for two ladies is just pervy imagination was after all a very bad idea. Because someone else voted same but for different reason and that can't happen. Having same opinion for different reasons? Madness

Let me make my self clear. I did not say that all who voted or are going to vote on that option are pervy. I said that MY PERSONAL reason is because no one else voted on it (at the time) and because I am pervy like that (I am sure I said "I" here ). Is that somewhat more clear?

Geez, way to blow something out of proportion lady.    But I guess it is my fault, people always take me too seriously and I am anything but that ... ever. It is my curse. People will always misunderstand me. And I have to repeat my self. And repeating myself makes me eat the wrong flower.

[theravenchilde]

I am still making [???] faces at you, for the record. Also, if you look, I'm the other one who voted Shasnah.

[Prince of Ravens]

I am still making [???] faces at you, for the record. Also, if you look, I'm the other one who voted Shasnah.

My English is so bad? Or are you pulling my leg?    Of Course you are the other person who voted for Snasnah, otherwise you wouldn't find it offensive that when I voted I said my reasons for doing so are pervy imagination.  Than you said:

 

[this is not a pervy ship and I really don't understand why someone would vote for this to be pervy bc this ship is perfect This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules are you doing and why would you say that like that]

 

For some reason my post got reported for honesty.

 

And than I responded with:

 

Because I know my self and in my head it's pervy as hell.

 

Hinting that it's not ship that is pervy but myself. But point swooshed somewhere high overhead .... And you are still confused. So let's just move on?

[Mailliw73]

This poll is based on the assumption that Shallan will survive the series. I don't know if you read Mistborn, but uh, Brandon doesn't always keep his main characters around.

[Quiver]

I stand by my earlier comments, that I dislike Shasnah because it ruins my head canon idea for how, and who, Jasnah is.

That said, I would not object to Shallan being in love with her, regardless of whether those feelings are reciprocated or not. And since I don't want to go for the obvious votes of Adolins, or Kaladin, I'm might vote Shasnah... albeit it a very strange, not-exactly-a-relationship Shasnah.

Unles I'm allowed to want Shasnah and asexual!Jasnah/Kasnah at the same time. Which would be convenient.

Let the bidding war for my on-so-important vote begin!

Edited July 25, 2014 by Quiver

[maxal]

I don't understand Shasnah as it is not canon at all. Shallan clearly is into men. Just like Adolin and Kaladin are clearly into women. I just don't get these ships.

 

Jasnah is a different story as we don't know which ship she sails, although I agree with the earlier comment stating having her living up the life of a scholar simply because she is a lesbian would sort of ruin the whole point. I like Jasnah as she is and I would hate to find out her sexual orientation is what drove her to become a world renown searcher. I would rather prefer if she decided she would not invest herself into romantic issues by choice and not by circumstances and this independently of her preferences.

[Mailliw73]

About Shasnah, I don't think it's a likely romantic ship at all. They don't think of each other that way. If it's more of a friendship ship, like how I think Renadin/Kalarin is, then I definitely ship it. But neither of those could be romantic ships in my mind. Those characters aren't interested in that.

[maxal]

About Shasnah, I don't think it's a likely romantic ship at all. They don't think of each other that way. If it's more of a friendship ship, like how I think Renadin/Kalarin is, then I definitely ship it. But neither of those could be romantic ships in my mind. Those characters aren't interested in that.

 

I agree. I love Shallan/Jasnah and Kaladin/Renarin as friends. If these ships imply friendship, then I definitely ship them, but my favorite bromance is Kaladin/Adolin. Long live the bromance!

[Chrono]

You can ship them as friends, I think. There's some magical Homestuck pattern that dictates the multiple types of shipping. I would summon FeatherWriter, but I can't really do that unless someone mentions Renarin.

[theravenchilde]

Moirailegiance. Which is actually a romantic bond, there's just not sex involved, so it's not a traditional human romance. Moirails rely on each other for emotional well being in a mutual, loving relationship. It's not the same as "friend"shipping.

 

And while in terms of canon I consider Quiver's point to be the most likely (cough you can still have ace!Jasnah and Shasnah cough), I'm still just gonna sit over here in camp Shasnah and party.

[DSC01]

I don't think we're going to see a love triangle. The way Shallan thinks about Kaladin reminds of the way Navani explained her feelings about Dalinar when they were young and she decided on Gavilar. She's attracted to him in a way that's more fulfilling than what she gets from Adolin, but he has an intensity that disturbs her. I think Adolin will die, and Kaladin will end up with Shallan later on (if, that is, they are going to end up together).

[hurricaneez1]

I don't think we're going to see a love triangle. The way Shallan thinks about Kaladin reminds of the way Navani explained her feelings about Dalinar when they were young and she decided on Gavilar. She's attracted to him in a way that's more fulfilling than what she gets from Adolin, but he has an intensity that disturbs her. I think Adolin will die, and Kaladin will end up with Shallan later on (if, that is, they are going to end up together).

I also think there is a good chance Adolin will die...probably later in the series.

Until then Shallan/Adolin, to me, just makes the most sense. It allows the developing bromance between Kaladin and Adolin to continue and you have the possibility of romantic friction between Shallan and Adolin over her being the power in the relationship.

[maxal]

I don't think we're going to see a love triangle. The way Shallan thinks about Kaladin reminds of the way Navani explained her feelings about Dalinar when they were young and she decided on Gavilar. She's attracted to him in a way that's more fulfilling than what she gets from Adolin, but he has an intensity that disturbs her. I think Adolin will die, and Kaladin will end up with Shallan later on (if, that is, they are going to end up together).

 

I hate the idea Adolin has to die so that Shalladin can happen. It would very bad writing to kill of a character just to solve a love triangle... I also hate the idea the relationship had to mirror the Dalinar/Navani/Galivar triangle. They had their issues, but I fail to see why our young protagonists should live through the same thing. In fact, I pretty much hate story repeating itself all over again and I doubt Brandon would give us that. Afterall, the Adolin/Renarin brother/brother relationship has nothing to do with the Dalinar/Galivar one.

[kadolin]

Yes for Kadolin or maybe even Shakadolin, where they love one another lol. Who needs conventional romance!

Or perhaps Shallan with Pattern!

Edited July 28, 2014 by kadolin

[Kogiopsis]

I don't understand Shasnah as it is not canon at all. Shallan clearly is into men. Just like Adolin and Kaladin are clearly into women. I just don't get these ships.

 

Jasnah is a different story as we don't know which ship she sails, although I agree with the earlier comment stating having her living up the life of a scholar simply because she is a lesbian would sort of ruin the whole point. I like Jasnah as she is and I would hate to find out her sexual orientation is what drove her to become a world renown searcher. I would rather prefer if she decided she would not invest herself into romantic issues by choice and not by circumstances and this independently of her preferences.

C'mon, sexuality is and never has been binary.  Liking one gender does not mean you could never like someone of a different gender.

 

Also, I'm confused as to why people think Jasnah being lesbian/bi/queer-romantic would be the cause of her life trajectory.  I've never met anyone who decided on a career based on their sexuality, and Jasnah gives every indication of having genuine passion for her work.  It's not a second choice or a fallback for her, it's what she cares about, and it's entirely separate from who she's attracted to.

[Abalidoth]

*quietly sits down and continues to write Shasnah fic*

[maxal]

C'mon, sexuality is and never has been binary.  Liking one gender does not mean you could never like someone of a different gender.

 

Also, I'm confused as to why people think Jasnah being lesbian/bi/queer-romantic would be the cause of her life trajectory.  I've never met anyone who decided on a career based on their sexuality, and Jasnah gives every indication of having genuine passion for her work.  It's not a second choice or a fallback for her, it's what she cares about, and it's entirely separate from who she's attracted to.

 

Well you know, sexuality is binary for most people...  Across the main population, the percentage of people who actually are interested in both sex is below 5%..... Bisexuality is not all that common, sorry  I have heterosexual and homosexual real life friends and all of them are pretty much fix on their preferences no matter what it is   Some of my homosexual friends have tried the opposite sex before coming to the conclusion they sailed a different ship, but they would not go back, not now. As for SA, unless Brandon decides to clearly write one character as such, I will assume their preferences are as canon assumes it is.

 

As for Jasnah, I would stipulate that, considering the world she lives in, her being a lesbian could have been a factor as to why she choose to never marry. We have yet to find one homosexual couple in Roshar, so I would believe such relationships are, as they still are in many countries in our world, taboos or forsaken. If Jasnah was indeed a lesbian and prevented to live out her preferred relationship due to society, than it could have triggered her interest in her studies. I would hate to know she chose not to marry because she could not marry the person she wanted. I would prefer if she willingly chose not to marry.