Confused

Interesting theory. I proposed something similar last summer. That post - "Stone Shamans Are Heralds in Waiting" - had too much in it to paraphrase here, but that theory and yours are consistent.

There are some interesting Biblical analyses on that subject. Short answer: if God wanted a great fish to swallow Jonah, it would be trivial for Him to accomplish. If he wanted a whale to do it, the Bible (purportedly the word of God) would have said so. You're all correct, though. The Bible may say fish, but everyone talks about a whale. Even George Gershwin in the song "It Ain't Necessarily So" from his opera "Porgy and Bess" said "Now Jonah got swallowed by a whale..." Anyway, I wrote the post only to set up the Pinocchio line. He - and Geppeto - were both actually swallowed by the same whale. Thank goodness for Jiminy Cricket! "When your wish upon a star..."

But numbers are an artificial construct anyway. Who needs them? It's so much more fun to work with glyphs!

Jonah was swallowed by a great fish, not a whale (technically). You're thinking of Pinocchio...

I love this stuff! Galileo: all motion is relative to the observer. Newton: all motion is relative to the observer, but time is constant. Einstein: all motion and time is relative to the observer, but the speed of light is constant. MISTER Sanderson: EVERYTHING is relative! What if the crew of the spaceship was inside a cadmium bubble, slowing them down, while the spaceship hurdles through space at its normal speed? Does the crew die of old age when they leave the bubble or can they also change their age connection to Scadrial? Physicists (and you Kurkistan), will this work if the ship doesn't need navigation or repair?

Thanks VERY MUCH to you all for your comments!! In this post, I try to show why my different reading of the OP’s cited WoB really does matter. To summarize my OP’s conclusion: the Spiritual Realm IS location-based, but Spiritual Realm INVESTITURE is NOT. This distinction says a lot about the structure of the Cosmere, with important implications. “Cognitive Distance” – Why Shardworlds Are Proximate in the Cognitive Realm I agree with Insipid/Skaa’s statement that “Shardworlds are basically adjacent in the Cognitive Realm.” That’s because Physical Realm concepts of “distance” don’t apply there. “Cognitive Distance” is measured in ideas not miles. The collective MINDS of the sentient beings inhabiting each Shardworld CREATE each Shardworld’s Cognitive Realm (together with the minds of locally invested Shards). The proximity of sentient populations within the Cognitive Realm reflects the ABSENCE of sentient minds in the Physical Realm space between the Shardworlds. IOW, their minds are close because there are no minds in between the Shardworlds filling that space with ideas. (I know you guys know this stuff, but repetition has its merits.) The Spiritual Realm IS Location-Specific The Cognitive Realm of each Shardworld is unique. It reflects the unique cultural, technological, political, ideological, religious, emotional, etc. ideas of each Shardworld. The local Cognitive Realm also reflects that Shardworld’s magical influences, mainly represented through the mandates (intents) of the locally invested Shards. These planet-to-planet differences largely explain why each Shardworld requires a different cognitive means of accessing the Spiritual Realm to create magic: burning metal, drawing an Aon, crafting a soulstamp, Awakening with a command, sketching a picture or willing yourself to “fly.” Shai tells us that when ideas in the sentient population become fixed and certain – the idea of a window as a window – those Cognitive Realm ideas reify into Spiritual Realm ideals. Since these ideals stem from each Shardworld’s version of the Cognitive Realm, then each Shardworld’s version of the Spiritual Realm must itself be different. As one example, Scadrial may have guns, and therefore the ideal of a gun exists in its Spiritual Realm, but Roshar does not have guns (until we see what Jasnah has in her bandolier). There should be no “gun ideal” in the Rosharan version of the Spiritual Realm. When I use the word “version,” I don’t mean the Spiritual Realm around each planet is discrete and separate from the others. Only that, wherever the Spiritual Realm is, that portion of it associated with any Shardworld will be different from the portion of the Spiritual Realm associated with any other Shardworld. This is what I mean when I say the Spiritual Realm IS “location-based.” But Spiritual Realm Investiture Is NOT Affected by Location or Mandate MISTER Sanderson says that Spiritual Realm investiture is everywhere the same – what he calls “true” or “raw” investiture. This means two things. First, that “true investiture” is untainted by its relationship with local populations and their thoughts – even though those thoughts are the very things that give rise to Spiritual Realm ideals in the first place. IOW, local thoughts shape the forms of investiture, but the raw material of the form, the “true investiture” itself, is always the same. Its composition is always unaffected by what goes on in the corresponding Cognitive and Physical Realms. Second, Spiritual Realm investiture carries no mandate (intent). Insipid/Skaa, you may think this conclusion is intuitive, but its ramifications are striking. For one thing, it means “true investiture” is pure untainted Adonalsium investiture. By negative implication, MISTER Sanderson tells us that investiture in the Cognitive and Physical Realms IS affected by place and mandate. The very substance of investiture in these two Realms differs from Shardworld to Shardworld. This is consistent with what MISTER Sanderson says about saturating magical “humidity” around planets and is also consistent with the SoS A2 that describes “different investitures.” IOW, what constitutes Cognitive and Physical Realm investiture on Scadrial or Roshar or Nalthis or Sel is different in kind from the same investiture on the other planets. We can only conclude that this is a function of the same Shard-planetary interactions that create each Shardworld’s unique magic systems. ASIDE: This hints at how one Shard can attack another. Maybe the injection of “alien investiture” can have a viral effect on the local Shard, or maybe the effect to the local Shard’s body is like the rejection of a transplanted organ. Harmony’s fear? “Being invested” in a planet means that a Shard’s investiture – its mind, body and soul – merges into the fabric of a planet and becomes one with it. It’s unsurprising the Shard’s body – its Physical Realm power – configures the landscape of the planet and becomes part of it - the Pits of Hathsin, for example. I am surprised (even if no one else is) that the Shard’s very MIND – its cognitive investiture – also merges with the planet’s collective Cognitive Realm. It’s one thing for a Divine Mind and mortal minds to occupy the same space inside the Cognitive Realm; it’s another order of magnitude for the Divine and mortal minds to actually merge into the same substance, a substance found nowhere else in the Cosmere but that Shardworld. This conclusion also hints at forced splintering methodology. Measuring Distance in the Spiritual Realm Insipid/Skaa, of course your statement that “physical distances are not important in the Spiritual Realm” is true, but that’s because you speak of “physical” distance. Only “Spiritual Distance” is important there, just as only “Cognitive Distance” – the distance between minds – is important in the Cognitive Realm. Perhaps “Spiritual Distance” matches the nature of the various connections between ideals. For example, Newton’s gravitation formula might define the nature of the “Gravitation” connection between physical bodies (subject to General Relativity). Or various quantum formulas may define the “Spiritual Distance” between sub-atomic particles. We are speaking of ideals, after all, and connections between these ideals that magicians can manipulate. Or perhaps “Spiritual Distance” can be measured by how far one can get from one’s “power source” and still use magic, as you suggest with your “string theory” example. (I am a big fan of your theory - well researched and thought through.) I don’t agree that “Spiritual Distance’s” lack of a physical analog is “[t]he point of the ‘Spiritual Realm is not Location-based’ idea.” There is nothing in that WoB that suggests anything about “Spiritual Distance.” Instead, as I’ve tried to show, the relevant WoB addresses whether any Realm’s investiture has a consistent form. MISTER Sanderson says, yes, in the Spiritual Realm, because the location of Spiritual Realm investiture isn’t important. Finally, Insipid/Skaa, if you liked Kurk the Intangible’s “Platonic forms” discussion, maybe you’ll enjoy reading this (when you need a soporific). Spiritual Realm as Network Moonless/Moogle, I agree with your conception of the Spiritual Realm as a network of connections. I envision the Spiritual Realm as an electric grid, directing energy anywhere required or requested. At each grid intersection are nodes with their own Spiritual information – the “essences” of objects/ideas and the “souls” of sentient beings. This node-specific Spiritual information includes the type of personal “Connections” you folks discuss in the interesting “Age and Connection” thread. On your Allomancer example, though, is there a WoB that says an Allomancer with the right metals can access Preservation’s power anywhere in the Cosmere? It seems theoretically possible, given my electric grid metaphor. A magician should be able to access the grid anywhere, especially since Spiritual Realm “true investiture” is everywhere the same. But the cognitive means of doing so seem daunting. If the Cognitive Realm is comprised of substantively different investiture on each Shardworld, it would take a major hack indeed for an Allomancer to attune his metals into Preservation while on Roshar. Hoid’s emotional allomancy ability there is a special case, as are all of Hoid’s abilities (IMO). MISTER Sanderson says Knights Radiant and Returned are examples of the two closest magical systems we’ve seen. I presume that’s because each animates its magic through a splinter attached to its Spirit Web. Spren and Divine Breaths are also similar in that the human host needs periodic investiture infusions to maintain his/her health, repair injury and facilitate long aging. A Returned needs more investiture than a Knight (weekly Breaths) because the Returned’s body is already dead, and its soul knows that, consistent with that recent WoB you folks discuss in the “Age and Connections” thread. Stormlight and Breaths are both a gaseous form of Physical Realm investiture. Functionally, there’s no other difference between the two human hosts except in how they express their magic. Magical expression is largely controlled by the mandate of the attached splinter. Natc, I agree with your database model. There’s no reason the Spiritual Realm has to exist anywhere in space, as long as the network is hooked up to a 3-D (at least) printer, pumping out whatever forms of Spiritual investiture the database instructs it to. It must be a relational database, since magicians constantly change the “connections” (search criteria) between objects.

I’ve seen posters rely on the following WoB (third questioner) to conclude that the Spiritual Realm is not “location-based.” By that phrase, these posters seem to mean that the Spiritual Realm is in one Cosmeric place; it is not located near the Cognitive and Physical Realm places associated with each planet. I disagree. Here’s the relevant language: Q: “Does investiture have a consistent form (regardless of magic system and its Physical form) in one of the other realms?” … A: “It's consistent in the Spiritual Realm. Location isn't particularly important there.” I think this statement means what it says – that the form of investiture is consistent only in the Spiritual Realm. This statement does not mean that location is irrelevant in the Spiritual Realm. Only that, wherever the investiture is in the Spiritual Realm, it is the same. This is unlike investiture in the Cognitive and Physical Realms. The unique physical, cultural and magical interactions on each planet create unique Cognitive and Physical Realms in relation to each planet. Magicians cognitively access the Spiritual Realm differently on each planet, and the Physical Realm effects of magic differ on each planet. These interactions apparently change the form of Cognitive and Physical Realm investiture itself planet-to-planet. Here’s the important point, though: the Spiritual Realm related to each planet IS ALSO DIFFERENT from each other planet’s Spiritual Realm. It must be, as each planet’s unique cultural and technological ideas become unique Spiritual Realm ideals. But the investiture that forms those Spiritual Realm ideals and their connections to one another is the same wherever those ideals and connections may be located. That IMO is what the quoted WoB says and means. Because Spiritual Realm investiture - "true investiture" according to MISTER Sanderson - is the same wherever located, it is not governed by any mandate (my word for "intent" based on the textual evidence from HoA). Mandates belong only to the Cognitive and Spiritual Realms. My, what implications there are from that!

[CONTAINS SA3 SPOILERS] Thanks to everyone for your interesting comments! I will first address the “Returned/Splinter/Bonding” issue, and then respond to something else Ari said. Finally, since we all seem to have gotten off-topic, I’ll throw out some thoughts to try and re-stimulate the main discussion. As always with my posts, most of what follows is analysis and speculation rather than canon. Is “Non-Sapient” Divine Breath in the Returned Different from Other Splinters? I think Ari’s tweeted WoB about the Returned’s investiture being “not sapient” is another example of MISTER Sanderson’s cleverness – it’s a true statement, but totally misleading. IMO, consciousness is NOT an inherent property of investiture, and in that sense the WoB is accurate. Investiture “transcends” the Realms (WoB). Along with matter and energy, investiture is one of the three “building blocks” of the Cosmere. Like matter and energy, investiture has certain properties and is convertible from one form of itself – Spiritual, Cognitive or Physical – into another form of itself. It is also convertible into matter and energy. But inherent “consciousness” is not one of investiture’s properties – just like life and consciousness are not inherent in matter and energy. Rather, something – possibly from beyond the Cosmere – caused Adonalsium to be capable of thought, just as something caused life on Earth. Maybe a random mix of components or the “God Beyond” or whatever, but consciousness is NOT inherent in investiture. Thus, ALL investiture lacks sapience (and sentience as well). [Again, “sentience” refers to the capacity to feel, while “sapience” refers to the capacity to think, to make judgments.] Investiture itself neither thinks nor feels, no more than human brain tissue does. On “Bonding” the Returned – Divine Breath Is Just Like Other Splinters A “mind” to investiture simply means the capacity to direct its power; it does not refer to a personality or the quality of the wielder’s intelligence or moral sensibilities. The Returned’s Divine Breath, which Ari’s WoB tells us is not itself sapient, thus REQUIRES the Returned’s own resurrected mind to direct its power. Pretty much every Cosmere magician has had its Spirit Web altered to enable them to command power – the “bonding” issue some posters above raise. That’s true on Roshar (Nahel bond); on Scadrial (allomancy and feruchemy are genetic); and for Elantrians (the Shaod) and I believe the others on Sel. When Endowment re-endows the Returned with life, she provides them with a new Spirit Web, a new “soul.” Perhaps it’s grafted onto their old soul and some memories remain (like with Lightsong), but otherwise they do not resemble who they were. So…Is Divine Breath different from other splinters because it borrows a dead person’s re-Endowed mind, rather than attaching itself to a living mind like Radiant Spren do? My answer is NO. (I also believe Odium’s Unmade are splinters made from dead listener and greatshell bodies, showing resurrection is not limited to Endowment.) Response to Ari on the Definition of Splinters Ari: how do you “split off the power without giving it any intelligence to go with it”? (And thank you for your question.) As stated above, a “mind” to power is simply the capacity to direct its use. It is NOT “intelligence” or personality. Power WANTS to be used. When it is cut off from the mind that controls it, it seeks other minds to direct it (like the Radiant spren do and like we believe the Shattered power that became the Shards did). If power can’t find another mind, then it self-propagates one with “bizarre” effects. (WoB suggests that’s why the Cognitive Realm around Sel is “dangerous” following Devotion and Dominion’s splintering.) This NEED to find a consciousness to direct it is what creates splinters, certainly “forced” splinters. “Splitting off the power without giving it any intelligence” presupposes the intelligence – the mind – is already gone, or at least unavailable to that splinter. That’s why my mantra is “to splinter a Shard, kill its mind.” Based on Sazed’s epigraphs in HoA, I understand “power” to be investiture’s Physical Realm manifestation, a Shard’s “body.” I tend to think of “power” in active terms – the Shard directing some act that manifests in the Physical Realm. But most Physical Realm power is actually latent - it awaits a consciousness to direct it. Atium was Ruin’s “body,” his Physical Realm investiture, his “power.” That “god metal” contained Ruin’s latent power that Preservation hid from him. That’s why Ruin could only affect Physical Realm events through agents like the Inquisitors and Koloss: he controlled no direct “power” of his own; he could not apply his mind to direct that power’s use. Instead, when Elend and his mistings consumed the atium, they were able to use their minds to burn the atium and manifest Physical Realm magical effects. Roshar’s Surgebinders use Stormlight – Physical Realm gaseous investiture (“power”) – in the same way. The important thing is that in none of these cases does this latent power spring into being as a “splinter,” with its own or borrowed consciousness. That’s why I think “splinters” are primarily cognitive investiture and not physical investiture (“power”). Splinters are the flotsam and jetsam that survive a shattered mind. Like spren and the investiture in Seons and Skaize, these shattered remnants attach themselves to their human hosts’ Spirit Webs. That enables the human hosts to exercise the power that the splintered cognitive investiture is capable of directing. (You might look at my “Why Radiant Spren Start Out Stupid” post for an explanation of this process.) Syl may be a splinter, but her bond to Kaladin’s mind enables him to use her mind to direct magical power. He cannot use his unbonded mind independently to direct power, as we saw in WoR. Note further that Syl herself is NOT “power,” except when she becomes his Shard-whatever. Kaladin’s Physical Realm lashings all rely on Syl’s ability – as cognitive investiture – to direct the manipulation of the Spiritual Realm’s “Gravitation” and “Adhesion” Surge connections between objects. More Thoughts on the OP Topic As stated in the OP, I believe everything exists simultaneously in all three Realms. I object, therefore, to the various statements in these forums that some magic is “more Spiritual” or “more Cognitive” or “more Physical” than some other magic. ALL magics IMO equally involve all three Realms, even if they seem to manifest more noticeably in one Realm or another. Just my view of things. To continue… The Cognitive Realm is the place of feelings and ideas. On the one hand, feelings and ideas are immaterial and lack tangible substance. When Shallan visits Shadesmar, she sees beads, just as Jasnah first did. Each bead represents the idea of that bead’s corresponding Physical Realm object or concept, like the stick or the Wind’s Pleasure. Only when Jasnah physically travels to Shadesmar, in the SA3 spoiler chapter, do we see how these ideas manifest to one another. Painspren inside Shadesmar, for example, “harmmore.” WoT’s Tel'aran'rhiod seems like the template for the Cognitive Realm. There, as here, one can appear cognitively – in one’s dreams – and also physically. I suggest the commonality extends to the ability to kill when one is physically present in the Cognitive Realm. I find all this Confusing. Here are some questions I’m looking for help on, together with some thoughts: Why Are Ideas Inside Shadesmar Capable of Harming One Another? Metaphorically, this makes perfect sense – an ideological “survival of the fittest.” But where does this conflict take place? In fact, how can the Cognitive Realm even have the physical substance to World Hop through? Are World Hoppers a form of virus invading some sort of central nervous system ganglia? Maybe it’s like The Matrix: destruction of the mind inside the Matrix will destroy the physical body located elsewhere? Just like MISTER Sanderson described in Perfect State? IOW perhaps World Hopping involves the movement of the Spiritual and Cognitive investiture comprising the Hopper’s Soul and Consciousness from one part of the Cognitive Realm to another. When you arrive, you take the body of a local planet’s person and use it until you move on to another world. This comports perfectly with my theory that the Heralds are “identity” spren embodied in the HonorBlades. IMO, the Heralds gave Honor their “souls,” down to their physical, mental and emotional characteristics. We know from feruchemy that almost every type of human characteristic is storable. Given the feruchemy precedent, it’s reasonable that investiture can store one’s characteristics during a World Hopping jaunt, after which that investiture re-emerges in the physical body of someone else, temporarily converting them into you. I’m not advocating that as the basis for World Hopping. I’m just trying to understand how the Cognitive Realm can have physical substance enabling ideas to fight one another. If (i) all ideas can tangibly affect one another inside Shadesmar, and (ii) they each act according to their nature, then (iii) wouldn’t more aggressive ideas begin to destroy less aggressive ideas? What happens in the Cognitive Realm if specific ideologies come to dominate? Do “stronger” ideas begin to push out less advantageous ones? Will the idea of war come to dominate the idea of peace, just as it mostly does on Earth? What is the effect of such ideological domination? Are alternative ideas squeezed out? Does the “squeeze out” effectively “kill” the mind of other local Shards? Kaladin discovers that Roshar is everywhere at war. People fighting tend to be aggression-fueled, belligerent, warlike. They will “de-humanize” each other and turn everyone but their own kind into something less than them, undeserving of even minimal decency standards. If that’s what Roshar’s Physical Realm now looks like, what’s happening in the Cognitive Realm, where ideas themselves do tangible battle? I can’t quite develop the full theory yet, which is why I ask your help, but all of the foregoing leaves me believe that Odium splinters other Shards by first destroying their minds in the Cognitive Realm. Please help me make this theory work!

Has the theory of Shard duality been confirmed? I've tended to disagree with it. I think relationships between Shards predate their becoming Shards and go back to when they were just people. Sazed has confirmed the distinction between "personality" - who the people who became Shards originally were - and their ability to wield power - what those people were, a consciousness to which the Shattered power could wed. We know that Tanavast and the person who became Cultivation were romantically linked. I believe their romantic relationship continued after they became Shards. They came to Roshar together. I believe that Aona and Skai also were romantically linked. I believe their relationship also continued after they became Shards, and that's why they came to Sel together. I don't know why Ati and Leras chose to create Scadrial together. We've assumed that the opposition of their mandates motivated them to act together. It's just as likely because of a pre-existing relationship, which I jokingly described in this post. Perhaps once blessed/cursed with those powers, the two decided to jointly create something in recognition of the necessity of working together. We know the non-Shard Hoid has feelings for the Shards, and his comments suggest they still have feelings about him. He is hiding from Rayse, after all. That may have more to do with Odium's overarching tactical and strategic concerns, but Hoid makes us believe it's also personal. Enough about Shard duality, on to the main topic: I'm only responding to the OP, because I've not read other threads about Trell or Nalt. My thoughts may be unoriginal or way off base. I'm also assuming your description of Trell and Nalt is correct. With those caveats...WOW!!! Didn't remember Nalt at all! Based on your description, here's what I think this signifies: Both Trell and Nalt are indeed Shards. BUT they were both at one time invested in the planet we now call Nalthis (as was perhaps Edgli?). Sometime in Scadrial's past, some of Trell's followers looked to the stars and found Scadrial. They then migrated there, by whatever means, magical or technological. It's noteworthy that Vasher/Zahel and (we suspect) other Nalthians found their way to Roshar. Why not others to Scadrial, bringing Trell (or pieces of him) with them (or vice versa)? Just some nutty and perhaps unoriginal thoughts...

We all know the basics: “all things (including investiture) exist in three realms”: body, mind and spirit – the Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual Realms. I personally add the word “simultaneously” after the word “exist” in the basic formulation, but that’s not canon. Here’s my question: What happens in the Cognitive Realm where Shard’s thoughts (cognitive investiture) and other beings’ thoughts mingle? My purpose in exploring this question has to do with splintering. I’ve advocated that splintering a Shard involves killing the Shard’s mind, allowing its power to go untethered to a consciousness that can control it. The “uncontrolled” power then develops its own consciousness – its own mind – and we call that self-conscious piece of power a “splinter.” But Shards also self-splinter, peeling off bits of their own consciousness, their own mind. This “sacrifice” allows that bit of consciousness to use an equivalent amount of Physical Realm power independently of the Shard’s direct control. That’s what the Divine Breath in each Returned is, an intentionally created autonomous splinter of Endowment. We speculate that Odium and Cultivation also intentionally self-splintered on Roshar, as did Adonalsium him/her/itself, according to WoB. That brings me back to my question, which seems fundamental to understanding splinters. What happens when God’s mind and mortal minds meet in the Cognitive Realm? Do their minds touch each other or do they hang out in different places? CAN IDEAS FROM MORTAL MINDS BECOME INVESTED WITH GOD'S OWN COGNITIVE INVESTITURE? Help!!! (And thanks...)

And THAT'S why MISTER Sanderson (no more "Brandon" for me) should have come to Ann Arbor instead!

So many Kholins became Knights Radiant BECAUSE THEY ALL READ THE WAY OF KINGS (or had it read to them). They all each stated the First Ideal and possibly more - and more importantly actually believed in the ideals they read. Obviously the family has problems (lots of “broken souls”), but hey, whose family doesn’t? Reading the book and saying the ideals (with meaning) in addition to having broken souls was what got them the golden ticket. Shallan also read The Way of Kings at an early age, BTW. Heleran brought it to her. I don’t think this is coincidence. In fact, I think Odium’s minions deliberately made sure the book was available to reintroduce Surgebinding to Roshar. Surgebinding IMO (and Nale’s) causes Desolations.

What! The week of the Michigan-Michigan State game and Brandon's going to be in Lansing! Where's the love! Where's the karma! He MUST come by A2 and even things out...

I think there’s an important distinction between Rosharian Knight Radiant Surge combinations and Scadrial “twinborn” combinations. The Roshar combinations derive from the “mandate meshing” of two different Shard investitures (to use a more alliterative phrase for a concept Moogle first described as “intent meshing”). Scadrial “twinborn” combinations arise instead as different manifestations of the SAME mandated investiture – Preservation’s. This distinction may explain why the individual Surges used by each KR order seem to operate differently from order to order – the “something new” mentioned in the SoS A2. For example, Shallan and Jasnah are both Soulcasters, but apparently only Jasnah can physically teleport herself to Shadesmar. I think the Roshar “effects” discussed in other posts, like Lightweavers’ mnemonic ability, must be related to this “new” power but are not the “new” power itself. Apart from text, I base my analysis on the following premises: (1) The Surges encompass the entire range of Spiritual Realm “connections” that bind all Cosmere objects. I can’t think of a universal force or concept that is not represented on the list of Surges. (2) Each Shard’s power is identical in its ability to affect each of the universal forces in some way. The differences among the Shards derive from each Shard’s mandate (intent), how each Shard expresses its power. Investiture is investiture is investiture, and only the Shard’s mandate (intent) changes how the investiture manifests and is used. Rosharian “mandate-meshing” must necessarily create a new form of mandated investiture. The SoS A2 highlights the more “subtle” nature of Scadrial twinborn combinations. It states that such combinations produce a new “effect,” rather than a new power like on Roshar. Since both allomancy and feruchemy rely on Preservation’s investiture, it would be surprising if the combination could create a new “power.” Other observations: If Wayne does become a kandra, he will be a very rich one. He’s about to venture fund the Thomas Edison of her day, whose last name of Tarcsel includes the letters “Tesla.” (Hmm, and also includes “sel”…Do we smell a Worldhopper?) The SoS A2 states that the “God Metals” can be alloyed to create “an entirely different set of sixteen [base allomantic metals] each.” That suggests that the choice of the original set of sixteen was purely arbitrary. It does confirm the importance of the number 16, though, at least on Scadrial. Note the SoS A2 statement that feruchemy has “some feelers in the Physical, some in the Cognitive, and even some in the Spiritual.” I interpret this statement to mean that feruchemy can store attributes located in each of the realms. The idea of storing Spiritual attributes – as Soulbearers apparently can – is fascinating. I can understand why the Terris prefer their experimentation to go unnoticed. Soulbearers! People who can store their own souls in their metalminds! The implications boggle! The SoS A2 confirms that “none of the Investitures are actually evil.” While that’s simply the A3’s opinion, just as Hoid’s comments about Rayse in the Letter reflect his opinion, this statement at least supplies strong evidence that Odium is not evil. The A3seems more objective on the subject than Hoid. But then we have the comments on hemalurgy, an art “of the greatest interest” to the A3 because it is “primarily concerned with things of the Spiritual Realm.” Either the A3 is creepy – a Dr. Frankenstein of the Soul - or it may be possible to perform hemalurgy without killing the power’s donor. The Recreance itself provided the first half of a hemalurgical operation – the ripping out of the power source from the donor (the Knights Radiant). Perhaps if the Radiant spren had donees immediately ready to receive the transplant to their own Spirit Web, the spren wouldn’t have “died.” Just some thoughts…

Corax, you’re exactly right – Sazed says a Shard’s mind occupies its power like human minds occupy flesh and blood (or something like that…) But I have a different view of realmatic theory than you and many other Forum posters. I believe all things – including Shards and their investiture – exist simultaneously in all three realms. (See “The Origin of the Cosmere.”) There is no “strongest and most intertwined with investiture.” That’s like saying humans exist more in their souls than in their bodies or in their minds. We are neither more one than another – we exist simultaneously as all three (in my understanding of Brandon’s cosmology). Shadowspren, I can’t tell you why Ati didn’t run – narrative necessity? Arrogance? Paralysis? IMO the filling of the Well of Ascension and the formation of atium have nothing to do with Ati’s or Leras’s “thoughts and personalities” – who they were. Each act seems compelled by the Shards’ mandates (intents). I think the same events would have happened regardless of who became these Shards, with only some slight variations due to personality differences. Nor do I think “willpower” is a relevant consideration, except to the extent a greater mind should be capable of wielding greater power. In Ruin and Preservation’s case, their powers exactly balanced at the time Vin killed them both. Otherwise, I believe one would have survived (Ruin’s plan all along). Odium would not use Vin’s tactic. He is not suicidal. Vin was, after Elend died. Ari, my statement allowed for deliberate or incidental self-splintering. I said “the Shard’s mind must be dead or at least unavailable to that splinter.” I intended this last clause to address those situations where the Shard does continue to exist, specifically contemplating Endowment and Divine Breath. Moogle, Ruin and Preservation are “a special case” among the five dead Shards we’ve seen only because neither power was splintered when the Shards died. Sazed picked them up whole almost immediately. In each of the five cases, however, the person who became the Shard died – the mind directing the power – though the Shard’s power continued in some other form. I read your WoB as supporting my position. Brandon simply describes a brain-dead body that’s been placed on life support. The Shard’s power sustains the body for some time after its mind is gone. But the power slowly leaks away, seeking another mind to direct it. In essence, the Shard’s brain-dead “body” – its power – decays over time. If these bits of investiture cannot find another mind to direct them, they may become splinters, acquiring sentience on their own. I agree the precise mechanism for how a Shard kills is unclear. This is the part I’m still working on – that Odium’s Aggressive ideas attack the other Shards’ minds almost like aggressive cancer cells attack a human brain. There are only three ways to kill a Shard – destroy its body (its Physical Realm power), destroy its mind (who the Shard is), or destroy its Spirit (by disrupting its Spiritual Realm connections). The first seems almost impossible, since investiture cannot be destroyed (although it can undergo state changes). It might be possible to disrupt Spiritual Realm connections, but that seems like it would make the Shard into something other than a Shard, rather than just splintering it. That leaves destroying the mind, which seems to me the easiest route to Shard murder.

I believe a Shard’s greatest weakness is its consciousness – the mind that directs the power. Sazed tells us that power exists regardless of who controls it, that “thoughts and personalities” are not part of a Shard’s power and are unnecessary to its exercise. (See “The Shattering: Origin, Power and Nature of the Shards.”) Although a Shard’s mandate limits what the power can do when exercised, the decision when and how to exercise the power belongs entirely to the mind that wields it. Killing the Shard is killing WHO the Shard is, since its power remains. That is precisely how Vin killed Ruin, in a single cataclysmic moment: “Her consciousness…moved to touch that of Ruin…And, with a surge of power, Vin…pulled Ruin into the Abyss with her. Their two minds puffed away, like mist under a hot sun.” - HoA, Kindle, p. 712. Vin destroyed both Ruin’s and her own mind, leaving Sazed to take up the power of each Shard, forming Harmony. Kill the mind, the power is insensate (for at least some time) and cannot be used. This is an especially good tactic for Odium, whose greatest strength is his Aggressive mind. (See “Mandates of the Known Shards.”) The strongest proof that this is Odium’s tactic is the splinters on Sel and Roshar. For a splinter to exist, the Shard’s mind must be dead or at least unavailable to that splinter. Otherwise the splinter wouldn’t need to acquire sentience; the Shard’s own mind would provide it. I’m still working on how precisely splintering occurs. My basic thesis is that thoughts can kill. But that’s another post…

Civilizations rise and fall, and technological "progress" is not always in one direction. (There's a reason the "Middle Ages" are also called the "Dark Ages," following the fall of the Roman Empire.) Time lapses of 4,500 to 5,000 years don't necessarily mean progress or decline, but some of each. BUT - I think Honor deliberately slowed down innovation, perhaps to limit humans' ability to destroy themselves and others. (This is an important theme of Joe Abercrombie's "Half a..." series.) "Honor" as a concept is conservative, relying on values rather than law to establish social cohesion. Honor binds, including binding technological growth. You all know I think Honor created Desolations to prune human populations and reduce Odium's influence on them. Taln in his conversation with Shallan says a main purpose of the Knights Radiant was to restore technology lost in each preceding Desolation. While Desolations were ongoing, human technological progress was necessarily limited. In the 4,500 years after Aharietam, there have been no Desolations. Human technology should have advanced beyond new-fangled fabrials and steel. It hasn't. (4,500 years ago on Earth, the dominant civilizations were Mesopotamia, Egypt, India and China, all based on the surpluses created from fertile flood plains.) I think Honor found other ways to slow down technological progress until Odium killed him. We don't know when that happened, but it was after the Recreance, which occurred after Aharietam. My speculation, therefore, is that humans started expanding their technological base AFTER Honor's death. "Recent" technology growth on Roshar occurred over a much shorter time period than 4,500 years.

“And the only sound that's left after the ambulances go Is Cinderella sweeping up on Desolation Row.” - Bob Dylan, “Desolation Row” THIS POST IS INTERPRETATION AND SPECULATION. PLEASE READ IT AS SUCH. Desolations are the critical narrative element of SLA, even more than the Highstorms Brandon based on Jupiter’s Great Red Spot. What are they, what causes them, what is their purpose, how do they begin, how do they end? I made an earlier attempt to answer and will now try again. Brandon seems fascinated by the question he has Kaladin ask: “Can you kill to protect?” Vin says that’s humankind’s nature: “Something that could both protect and destroy. Something that could destroy to protect.” (HoA, Tor Softcover, p. 711.) This theme informs my interpretation of Desolations. Because Desolations are so central, a proper exposition requires background and context. I’ve written a number of posts to provide this context, some of which are controversial. To summarize before proceeding: “The Origin of the Cosmere” presents my view that all Cosmere magic begins in the Cognitive Realm with a cognitive command of some sort. I later described unconscious healing as an example of the general rule. “The Shattering” asserts that Adonalsium was Shattered vertically, along the fault lines of each mandate (intent), rather than horizontally across the spectrum of powers. IOW, each Shard has the same powers; the only difference from Shard to Shard lying in the powers’ expression through each mandate. I identify each known “Mandate.” Honor is “Relationships.” Cultivation is “Survival.” Odium is “Aggression.” I’m not wedded to any of these words, although I’m comfortable with the latter two. I do think “Relationships” fits Honor both conceptually and in how I think Honor expresses his power, but the word itself stinks. I’m open to suggestions on that one… I describe the nature of spren and why Radiant spren enter the Physical Realm with sentience only and not sapience until they bond. I assert that Honor made the souls of the Heralds into “identity spren” implanted in the Honorblades. That post also claims the Honorblades are “Voidbinding fabrials” that cause the Heralds’ “torture.” Later I conclude that the Heralds’ souls/identity spren must bond with the Stone Shamans when they emerge in advance of a Desolation. I argue that the Nightwatcher is a cognitive prison for Odium, part of how he is entrapped on Roshar. I also argue that Stormlight consists of the investiture of all three Shards forged by the Honorblades, another part of his prison. And I argue that in Shadesmar thoughts can kill. I believe a Shard’s best and easiest tactic to kill another Shard is to destroy its mind, its ability to direct its power. I believe that’s what Odium did when he splintered Dominion, Devotion and Honor. I am still developing this argument. Below is a summary of my theory of Desolations, without textual citation. Originally this summary was the introduction of a longer essay. Unfortunately (fortunately?), I’ve now grown too weary to write it. But I didn’t want to deprive you folks of your regular target practice. So here it is, in bare form, weaving together the ideas generated in the above-cited posts. What Desolations are the wars between Honor/Cultivation surrogates and Odium surrogates. Voidbringers include anyone under Odium’s influence. That means listeners, thunderclasts, humans and others. I speculate Odium spren resurrect dead greatshells as thunderclasts and dead – and disturbed – listener remains as the “mindless” Unmade (so described by the Diagram). I’ve stated throughout my posts that Odium’s investiture doesn’t bond. How then does Odium exercise influence? WoB states Odium has found a “hole” to “pour” his investiture into (like Hamlet’s uncle poured poison into King Hamlet’s ear). This is different from actually bonding with the host. My analogy to explain the difference is this: place an electrode into an insect’s body. You can control the insect’s behavior through the electrode. But the electrode is never PART of the insect’s body. If you destroy the electrode, the insect is still an insect. But imagine instead you spliced genes into to the insect’s body, so the insect no longer is an insect. It is now whatever that combination causes this new entity to be – a Knight Radiant, perhaps. (Or a Greatshell or Ryshadium?) That’s the difference between “carrying” investiture and bonding with investiture. Odium can only cause the former. Why Desolations impair Odium’s capacity to free himself from Greater Roshar. Humans are more susceptible to Odium’s influence than native Rosharans and better serve Odium’s purposes. Honor and Cultivation periodically need to “prune” their numbers (and also destroy other Voidbringers). Who Odium began the cycle. He created war on other planets to drive humans to Roshar. (WoB confirms that “the races are more distinct [on Roshar] and rub each other the wrong way…”) Once there, they committed genocide against listeners, wreaking “Desolation” upon them. In order to fight Odium (and incidentally to protect the listeners), Honor offered the Oathpact to the Heralds: fight for Honor against Voidbringers, who then mostly included Odium-influenced humans. Otherwise, Honor would annihilate ALL of Roshar’s humans if necessary to defeat Odium. At some point, Odium figured out how to influence listeners, and the Desolations lost their racial character. During the Vorin period, the original nature of Desolations was ignored, forgotten or deliberately reversed. How Roshar’s Physical Realm gaseous investiture – Stormlight – consists of equal amounts of each Shard’s investiture. Desolations begin when an “investiture imbalance” develops in Stormlight. Spren count as investiture. Honor made each Herald’s soul into an “identity spren” residing in an Honorblade. The Honorblades both monitor and consume investiture. When the imbalance develops, the spren emerges and bonds with a Stone Shaman, current keepers of the Blades. That Shaman-now-Herald signals the Desolation. When the Desolation ends, the Honorblade consumes the Herald’s identity spren, returning it to the Blade. Otherwise, the presence of the identity spren itself causes an investiture imbalance that would lead to a new Desolation, as Brandon has said. Desolations end when the Honorblades sweep Roshar clean of unbonded investiture, including spren. I speculate that the Stone Shamans are the “current” Honorblade keepers because they are somehow related to Talenal, the one Herald who remained “true” (because he “died”). I don’t know whether Heralds had squires or whether some KR from each order attended to their patron Herald. But the Stone Shamans represent Talenal, whom Taravangian describes as the “Ancient of Stone” and whom Nale describes (IMO) as the “Spren of Stone.” IMO if other Heralds had “died,” there would be additional Keepers of the Blades. Next Unlike Desolations, the Everstorm IS of Odium’s design. It brings on the True Desolation (the destruction of most of Roshar) and the Night of Sorrows, when the Everstorm reaches Urithiru, blocking both daylight and Stormlight. That’s the basics. Before you take aim, please make sure you’re wearing your orange vests… AND HAPPY LABOR DAY WEEKEND!

I would never mock you, Maxal, and I wasn't. But I AM mocking a general tendency to read too much into WoBs. That first item highlights how little actual "fact" there is in that WoB. One of those facts is that Adolin had a mother. Yes, we already knew that. But this statement further confirms it. That and the other two items I mentioned are the only "facts" that can legitimately be gleaned from this statement. In the absence of facts, you are free to speculate whatever you like (as we all do). Having read your speculation, I don't think it's affected one whit by the WoB, either as confirmation or denial. That's my only point - the paucity of evidence contained in that specific WoB and the general tendency to read too much into them.

Oudeis, I thought you'd appreciate that line! Thanks! Lindel is correct. To me, "mandate" is the proper word for "intent" based on HoA text. I explain why in my admittedly bloviated "Mandates of the Known Shards" post. (If you skip the introduction, it's not so bad.) Lindel is incorrect in thinking I "use different words for a Shard's Intent as compared to its mandate." They are equivalent terms. Chaos invented "intent" in an early and still excellent post; and I recently noticed Sazed use the term "mandate of its abilities" in HoA with reference to power. Feel free to use whatever word, but I prefer the one from the text. Back to you Oudeis...did I understand that you got scared from reading the "Mandates" post because "it got very big very fast"? My "underlying premise" in that post is that the name of a Shard does not necessarily signify its mandate. Mandates have to be viewed broadly and abstractly, beyond a simple definition of the Shard name. The critical question is how does the Shard's mandate cause it to express its power - what it DOES, not what its name means. I think, for example, Honor's mandate is "Relationships," a word I'm not fond of but well states how Honor expresses his power - IMO through social and physical bonds, organization, structure etc. I THOUGHT you and I had a similar understanding about the nature of mandates. I recall you commenting on the Progression Surge in the prior Nightblood thread. You stated how people over-emphasize the "progress" - "forward" - part of "Progression." I agreed with what you said. Oh well... A Realmatic issue: if everyone can see the smoke, it's in the Physical Realm. I would like to see that WoB about "waste." That seems contrary to what Brandon has said about Endowment's investiture being "sticky." "Stickiness" suggests Endowment should not leak out of the sheath. WoB explicitly states Breath in this respect is unlike Stormlight. Maybe he's saying the smoke represents the non-investiture residue from whatever person Nightblood killed? Just seems strange...

You are right, Maxal. This WoB does confirm the following: Adolin had a mother. Adolin had an "early sense of morality." "Much" of that morality "was instilled" by his mother. Still unknown is the following: What that "early sense of morality" was. How "much" of it came from his mother. How this "early sense of morality" "was instilled." (Here I'm noting Brandon's use of passive voice - he could have stated "Adolin's mother instilled in him...") Thus, we don't know whether Adolin's mother actively taught him morality or taught him by her example. How "early" was that sense instilled? Was Adolin 2 or 3, 7-8? Was this "early sense" simply saying "No - don't cross the street without holding my hand?" Or was it "Kholin good, Sadeas bad"? I know I'm being peevish about this WoB. Not your or any poster's fault. I've just seen SO MANY WoBs misread, misinterpreted, misstated, misunderstood, mis-relied on for things they don't say, etc. I'm frustrated by people interpreting Brandon's deliberately evasive comments like clearly-written guidance. IMO Brandon rarely says what he's being quoted as saying and RAFOs are almost unnecessary to him. As to you and others enjoying character as much as plot or background, point taken. It's a good reminder of the diverse interests represented on this board. Personally, I don't see how one can interpret character without the backdrop of plot, etc., but each to their own.

Oudeis, you partly answered my questions, by saying Nightblood’s mind will simply wield greater power. I’m less interested in answers than discussion. I’m trying to follow the logical implications of your theory. Here’s the question in its broadest form: What happens to the investiture Nightblood consumes? The derivative question is, What happens if (when) Nightblood consumes a Shard? We need to consider these questions regardless of which plotline leads us there. (I of all people would never question another person’s theories, if those theories are “factually correct” and internally consistent.) I think we all agree that Nightblood holds Breaths, Endowment’s investiture. Nightblood’s exercise of its command is an expression of Endowment’s power and subject to her mandate (intent). I believe that mandate is Generosity, Moogle believes it’s Sacrifice. Brandon describes Endowment’s investiture as having a “sticky” quality. Question 1: What Happens to the Investiture Nightblood Consumes? When investiture flows in, where does it go? Does Endowment’s “stickiness” keep the investiture in there, simply adding to Nightblood’s power? IOW, does investiture (of whatever kind) lose its own character and become part of Nightblood – part of Endowment’s power? That would be interesting…the Cosmere decimated by Odium’s rampage and then reinvested by Endowment…Brandon’s version of the Pulsating Universe theory. Or would the investiture “leak out” somehow? Then we have the same question: would the investiture retain its original character as Odium’s? Or is Nightblood a “washing machine” that bleaches investiture of Odium’s character and adds back Endowment’s colors? And there is this additional question: would the leaked bits of investiture try to keep Nightblood’s command? Would it matter whether the leaked investiture is from Odium or Endowment or might the command still apply in either event? Question 2: What Happens If Nightblood Consumes a Shard? Consuming the full investiture of a Shard is a different thing altogether than merely eating some of its investiture. Nightblood’s Breaths are barely a splinter’s worth of investiture compared to Odium’s full might. Does Odium’s investiture therefore overwhelm Endowment’s? Will Endowment’s mandate be lost against this tempest? We also have Realmatic implications at the Shard level. Oudeis, you speculate that Nightblood’s mind would replace Rayse’s control of the power. That’s a reasonable though not required conclusion. Conversely, you also highlight Nightblood’s relatively undeveloped mind, which might enable Odium’s mandate to crush it, as Ruin’s mandate did to Ati’s “weak” mind (WoB). These speculations suggest RShara may have been right when she said that Nightblood would become Odium. * * * * * * * As you say, Oudeis, more questions than answers. Something more to look forward to as we bloviate about Nightblodium…

Oudeis, I agree with the theory that Nightblood will consume Odium, especially since I first proposed it in May 2014 (actually April 2014, but it began as part of a larger post). Your ideas are more considered and thought out than my throwaway thread was. 1. When Nightblood consumes investiture, what does such investiture “become”? Does the consumed investiture retain its original mandate (intent) or does it become subject to Nightblood’s “Destroy Evil” command? RShara in the cited thread suggests Nightblood will become Odium. You suggest a similar but not identical outcome. If Odium’s mandate does override Nightblood’s command, does this change your analysis? 2. Hate is an emotion. Evil is an abstract concept. Understanding hate requires only “sentience,” the capacity to feel. Understanding evil requires sapience – the capacity to make judgments. It’s the difference between the mental capacities of Radiant spren versus windspren, creationspren, etc. I don’t think Nightblood would have any difficulty understanding “hatred” as opposed to “evil.” 3. “Mind” to power represents only the capacity to wield the power IMO. More “mind” means more power. I agree with you that more “mind” does not necessarily mean a keener moral understanding. 4. There is a difference between ability and experience. As you and others here have pointed out, Sazed and Vin both had the ability to move planets, but not the experience; hence, they messed it up. That neither proves nor disproves whether an entity’s capacity to make moral judgments improves with greater power. It suggests as a minimum that the entity must have certain experiences – as we all must - before it can begin to make moral judgments. 5. Moogle, kudos for your Heinlein reference!

This is no information at all. Almost everyone's mother instills in them an early sense of morality, along with everything else. (What that morality is might change from mother to mother...Any "Sons of Anarchy" fans out there?) I like Argent's reference to a "rebellious warrior princess." Vivenna anyone?

Oudeis's theory has much to commend it. BUT Nightblood's mind WILL expand as it consumes increased power (no need for physical contact) and his "command" will change. From then on Odium/Nightblood's new mandate will be "HATE EVIL." It will truly becomes a "Sword of Retribution" as some have speculated.