Confused

McKeedee123: Kalak and Taln are the principal sources of information about the Heralds' torture, in the WoK Prelude and Taln's WoR Interlude respectively. You have identified the passage, from the Prelude, that most questions this theory: “Those fires, those hooks, digging into his flesh anew each day. Searing the skin off his arm, then burning the fat, then driving to the bone.” - WoK, Kindle p. 16 (emphasis added). As you note, that’s pretty specific. Responses: 1. The spren perceive themselves as still human, as I indicate in the OP. They are unaware of how they achieved immortality. Thus, the “hooks” and “earing” is Kalak’s human interpretation of what is happening to him. 2. Brandon has also talked about how Odium has corrupted some spren through “holes” he reaches through. Wouldn’t you think that Odium is doing everything he can with his investiture to corrupt and/or destroy the Heralds? An interesting thread I believe Moogle started suggests that Odium has already done just that – he corrupted Jezrien to induce the Heralds to abandon the Oathpact. The following quote sounds more like Taravangian than Jezrien: “‘Better that one man should suffer than ten,’ Jezrien whispered. He seemed so cold. Like a shadow caused by heat and light falling on someone honorable and true, casting this black imitation behind.” - WoK, Kindle, p. 17. 3. When Taln appears at Kholinar’s gates, he is described as follows: “His muscles glistened, wet as if he’d just swum a great distance.” (WoK, Kindle p. 1001.) Every time something pops up in the Physical Realm from the Cognitive Realm, it drips with condensation. (Shardblades anyone?) As does Taln. His spren just came out of the Cognitive Realm, found a host and transformed him into Taln. That’s enough to make anyone “glisten.” 4. The analogy between the Heralds and the Unmade has been frequently noted. Brandon has stated that the Unmade are splinters of Odium. Shouldn’t the Heralds be splinters of Honor and Cultivation? 5. While this appears to be a minority view, I just cannot get past the gross improbability that anyone, Herald or otherwise, would accept the most horrific torture imaginable – for all eternity – just because the Almighty asked them to. That sounds more like Damnation than Salvation. So, no, the Heralds don’t seem actually immortal to me. Seloun: Seloun, Seloun, Seloun...It's been awhile. I should have expected you. Always a pleasure (sincerely!), since you test my ideas so successfully. Here goes: A. I did not say the Heralds received a "reward" for their participation in the Oathpact. But it is a "pact," and they received something in exchange for their participation, whether wanted or not. I actually believe that the Heralds' "immortality" was just a byproduct of the creation of the identity spren. Honor could have selected and trained new individuals to give Honorblades to in each Desolation generation. He chose a different way. B. The balance of your argument has to do with a "martyr mentality." Let's agree that people often regret decisions that seemed good at the time. (What happens in Vegas...) In this case, though, I'm not sure that the Heralds even knew they would end up fried throughout eternity. I'm not sure Honor even knew, lacking foresight as he did. Brandon has repeatedly said that Odium was NOT part of the Oathpact. Why would anyone think torture would be part of the deal? I don't think it was. I think it resulted from what the Honorblades were primarily intended to do -- suck up investiture so spren can't make the transition from the Cognitive Realm to the Physical Realm, thereby causing a Desolation. (There, I said it.)

In WoK, Dalinar notes that Ialai’s hair is “reportedly dyed.” He muses that she must not be full-blood Alethi, since Alethi hair “always bred true [that is, black], proportionate to how much Alethi blood you had. Foreign blood would mean stray hairs of another color.” (WoK, Kindle p. 752.) What are we to make of Adolin’s nearly blond hair, then, containing only flecks of black? I make of it that Dalinar’s wife, and Adolin’s mother, is Vivenna. His hair is blond for one of two reasons. (1) Vivenna passed along the Royal Locks to Adolin. Because everyone (including himself) views Adolin as the “golden boy,” his hair remains mostly blond, with black Alethi highlights. (Or at least he has enough of Vivenna’s mini-Divine Breath in him to have his hair color be blond – though I’m not sure how that would work.) OR (2) Adolin is not Dalinar’s son. As total speculation, he may be Vasher/Zahel’s son. According to Navani, Dalinar’s wife put off marrying Dalinar for three years of his courtship and then unexpectedly changed her mind. Hmmm… Navani described “Shshshsh” as the perfect foil for Dalinar: "She fit you so well, never making inappropriate comments, never bullying those around her, always so calm...Though she wasn't very...[c]lever," she "fit [Dalinar] in temperament." (WoK, Kindle pp. 886-7.) Based on how Vivenna acted in Warbreaker, that description sounds just like her. If Vivenna is the Kholin boys’ mother, it would explain why Zahel’s hanging around helping her sons learn to use shards. And one more item to consider: Zahel tells Kaladin that Renarin is the son of the “most powerful human on this…” (WoR, Kindle p. 261, emphasis added.) Kaladin knows about Dalinar. Why say this, and use the word “human” (not “man”), unless he’s really referring to Vivenna? Even more interesting, the statement implies that Vivenna may still be alive! It’s possible that Renarin is Zahel’s son, and Zahel is the “most powerful human” on Roshar. It’s also possible that Zahel transferred breaths to Vivenna, making her more powerful than him. Or maybe Zahel is no longer human. (See this post speculating that Zahel was the Herald Ishar, the “Oathbringer.” If he is Ishar, then based on this post he is not human anymore but an identity spren.) Perhaps it was Vivenna herself who told Dalinar he should forget about her and seek that boon from the Nightwatcher. Perhaps Dalinar knew she wasn’t dead and went to the Nightwatcher so he couldn’t reveal that information to anyone. Vivenna may have feigned her death ten years ago to accomplish something that she knew would take a while and require secrecy. That way, no one would follow her. (Alethi soulcast their lighteyes dead. Since soulcasting is secretive, I presume this was done in a private setting. Avoiding discovery of the hoax would not have been difficult.) Vivenna Kholin. Not a lot to go on, but it seems to fit.

Abject speculation: Ishar = Vashar. The “Nahel” bond comes from “Zahel.” One cannot ignore the similarities between Vashar and the original Bondsmith Ishar: "But as for [ishar], his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws." - WoR Chapter 42 Epigraph Ishar is the “Oathbringer” referred to in the "in-world" book SLA3 is named for. Dalinar is clearly the focus of that novel, but I suspect we will learn a lot about Ishar through "Oathbringer." Now, of all the people on Roshar, who knows more than Vasher about bonding investiture? Who is the most likely person to figure out “the nature of each bond’s placement” (WoR Chapter 35 Epigraph)? I believe this statement refers to the place on each Knight Radiant’s SpiritWeb to which the RadiantSpren must attach for a Knight to access his or her surges. And what inventor/holder of Nightblood would have the means of “destroy[ing] each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws”? I believe this statement refers to the spren who imitated the Honorblades, rather than the Knights who may have wanted access to the surges. It is the spren who require implementation of the oaths, not the Knights themselves. Before Ishar's enforced agreement on the spren, the spren were "non-discriminating" as to whom they chose to bond with (other than the honorspren). Hence, the Alkavish troubles. Add to that the striking similarity between ”Nahel” and “Zahel.” Nobody else we’ve met in the novels has a similarly-structured name. It’s not even Vorin-sounding (no symmetry). It’s as if Zahel simply decided to turn the “N” 90º into a “Z.” As I said, abject speculation. But interesting…

It seems strange to me that the Heralds would accept immortality in exchange for eternal torture. I don’t care how “honorable” the Heralds are (and many of them have as much or more Cultivation in them as Honor). No earthly religious figures endured so much over their lifetimes for their beliefs, let alone through eternity. It's just so improbable, even in a work of fantasy fiction. So I sought an alternative explanation consistent with Roshar’s magical and planetary peculiarities. This is what I’ve come up with. 1. The Heralds Are Identity Spren Whoever the original Heralds were, they gave their memories and physical, mental and emotional characteristics (their “Identity”) to Honor to help maintain Odium‘s imprisonment in the Rosharian system. Honor created an “Identity spren” for each Herald and implanted that spren in each Honorblade. When the time comes for a Desolation, each Honorblade seeks a human whose physical characteristics and temperament match their Herald’s “Divine Attributes.” The Honorblade then bonds that person to itself. In other words, the Identity spren/investiture attaches itself to that person’s spirit web at precisely the places necessary to make that person into their Herald. As Syl has noted, the Blade itself is not a spren, but the spren within the Blade chooses a human to bond with. Through this investiture – more than the amount of investiture constituting a RadiantSpren – each bonded Herald acquires his or her non-surgebinding abilities that Brandon has alluded to (Taln’s quickness and hand speed, for example), as well as that Herald’s physical appearance, personality and memories. 2. The Oathpact The Oathpact was the agreement of the Heralds to fight for Honor in exchange for immortality. I believe they did not know how they were made immortal or that it would result in their perceived “torture.” Kalak’s interaction with Jezrien in the WoK Prelude (calling him the “immortal king”) supports this interpretation. Moreover, WEZ313 in an April 2015 post referenced a WoB that purportedly said "the Heralds blamed Honor for what happened to them." 3. The Honorblades Are Voidbinding Fabrials Honor designed the Honorblades to consume investiture, bind the investiture together as Stormlight (“Voidbinding”), and recycle the Stormlight. The Heralds are Voidbinders. Stormlight consists of physical investiture in gaseous form from each of Honor, Cultivation and Odium. It is the balance of the investitures that enables Honor to "bind the Void," and imbalances that cause Desolations. (Many storylines grow from this conclusion, and I’m still working through all the implications. Rather than to go into more about this now, may I say RAFO? 4 . Where the Heralds Go When They Don’t Die The Heralds “go back” following Desolations even when they don’t die because the Honorblades consume and return each Herald’s Identity spren to the corresponding Honorblade. 5. The Heralds’ “Torture” A Herald’s “torture” between Desolations is the Identity spren’s exposure to Odium’s investiture in the re-forging of Stormlight through the Voidbinding process. The Identity spren may or may not participate in this process. The intensity of the intra-Honorblade battle between Honor’s binding and Odium’s divisive investiture is what the Heralds perceive as the daily rendering and regrowth of their “flesh.” (Recall that Stormlight includes Cultivation’s Progression surge, which heals the Heralds from that damage.) 6. Who Is Taln? Taln IS Taln. But the spren that constitutes his identity had been locked inside that Honorblade waaaay longer than it had ever been before. Like other spren, it lost much of its memory and other cognitive characteristics when it transitioned into the Physical Realm. It will take Taln some time to recover himself. (Who now has his Honorblade is another story…) 7. The Stone Shamans Keep the Honorblades in the Mountains East of Shinovar Of the many singular things about Shinovar, most striking is the absence of spren. One reason is that the Stormlight-bearing Highstorms have dissipated by the time they reach the mountains east of Shinovar, and those mountains scrape off however much of the Highstorms remain. I propose an additional reason: the investiture-consuming Honorblades are kept in those mountains. They create a barrier to ensure that no investiture of any kind slips through into Shinovar. (I address why that is in another part of my Theory.) There's a lot more to say, but that's it for now.

Why is it assumed that KR can procreate? There's been lots of speculation that they are very long-lived, if not immortal. While there's no evidence one way or another about KR fertility/virility, it would not surprise if they are sterile, unwittingly giving up children for the spren bond and long life. Put another way, since excessive use of Stormlight causes their bodies to crystallize, it may be difficult for them to get their rocks off...

Bloodfalcon: Perhaps I too stated my point inelegantly, but I understood (and understand) you to mean that the Nahel bond spren ARE "Herald spren." I did think there might be something different about Herald spren, but you and Seloun have persuaded me otherwise. From now on, following your lead, I will call spren that bond with KR "Herald spren" generically, and call specific order spren the name of the Herald patron of that order followed by "spren." Two interesting things about this: First is the WoR Chapter 42 epigraph, where Ishar "caused organization to be thrust upon [men and] would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws." Since Herald spren seem by their nature to be limited to the same two Surges as each patron Herald, then it appears to be Ishar, and not Nohadon through the in-world Way of Kings, who imposed "precepts and laws" on the KR, strengthening their bonds only in proportion to their oaths or (in the Lightweavers' case) self-understanding. Ishar may have borrowed Nohadon's ideas (we don't know this for certain yet), but Ishar was the one who mandated them. Second, while Syl said she is unique, we know that other Herald spren are not. There are many Cryptics, many Whatever-Spren-Wyndle-Is, and many Whatever-Spren-Ivory-Is. Wyndle's Ring chose him specifically to bond with Lift, who herself was chosen specifically by the Nightwatcher. But the Stormfather did not want Syl to bond with Kaladin, Ivory's peers did not want him to bond with Jasnah, and Pattern simply wanted to be a scholar (or so he says). You'd think every Herald spren by their very nature would feel compelled to bond with KR candidates. Now that Dalinar is a Bondsmith, bound to the Stormfather, I wonder if we’ll see more Herald spren seek out more KR candidates. Seloun: "Re: 'Confusion' (the pronoun)"? Do you mean my pseudonym "Confused" (my perennial state, just ask anyone who knows me...)? Or are you using the word "Confusion" as a pronoun for my arguments? Regarding your paragraph 3, the idea that "Rosharian spren" (that is, not Nahel spren) have greater control over Rosharian life than the Nahel bond gives spren over humans comes from your Post #6 above: "But the bond with humans works differently from with [sic] Rosharian lifeforms - the Rosharian bond appears to provide the spren with much more control over their host compared to the Nahel bond..." I"m okay with "symbiosis" instead, as you suggest, but then the Nahel bond is symbiotic as well. I don't know who made the statement about the aquatic greatshells, but Brandon was clear that almost all greatshells require spren to keep from collapsing. I agree that doesn't mean that other spren don't also bond with them. And I love your analogy that “chulls are to greatshells as Parshmen are to Parshendi.” Chull Revolution!!! Good observation regarding perception limiting what Stormlight can do. Lopen is an interesting case: does he prove that Stormlight can not just repair but actually replace a body part? In any event, while the cited examples probably prove the correctness of your observation, they don’t necessarily disprove mine; I’ll wait for more evidence. The idea of a Neo on Roshar is just too cool to give up on… I very much appreciate your and Falconblood’s responses. They are well-reasoned and do much to clarify the nature of spren. Thanks, both of you!

What!! No law clerks!! [My 100th post!! Whoopee!]

Seloun, your posts never fail to intrigue (and I mean that sincerely). Spren have a life cycle that includes reproduction? Nahel bond spren have mutated? And you've talked about "bond-farming" on other threads. I love it! You are a very clever and insightful fellow! I've changed several of my views because of your analyses, and I think the nature of spren is an important one to engage on.Spren seem to me to be central to the SA in a way that Seons (for example) are not to Elantris. If we can understood exactly what spren can and can't do, and why, we'll understand a lot more of what's really happening in this series. So, with that said... I did not mean to suggest that Herald-spren would be of the same "class" as the Stormfather or the Nightwatcher, if you mean by "class" categories like the Cryptics or honorspren, etc. I merely cited these two as examples of how spren are "formed" through human conceptualization. I just think Herald spren, like all spren, would be formed by human conceptualization of each Herald. I stated my specific views on the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher, and how they became what they are, in this post. I agree with you that before the arrival of Honor, the listener's conception of the Stormfather as the "Rider of the Storms" created a spren with those characteristics. Subsequent human conceptualization of the Stormfather as related to the Almighty changed the Stormfather's nature, which changed even more when the Stormfather became Honor's sliver.. I described in Post #5 above my own theory about what spren are and how they are "formed." WoB somewhere compares the Cognitive Realm to Carl Jung's idea of the "Collective Unconscious." (I think it was WoB; it might have been someone posting - I'm beginning to feel like Taln with my own aging memory failures...In any event, it seems like a fair analogy.) I think of spren "maturation" as undifferentiated tissue differentiating into specialized tissue, much as animal embryos grow. Spren become the ideas that humans both conceive and perceive, as I discussed above. I don't think it's necessary for spren to bond in the Physical Realm except to the extent some spren want sentience or sapience. WoB does state (this time I'm sure) that spren are necessary for land-based Greatshells to exist without collapsing under their own weight. Brandon further said that such spren are unnecessary for sea-based Greatshells, presumably because water's buoyancy supports them. In the chasm scene, spren exited the Chasmfiend after its death; maybe "physical support" spren was all there was. I don't believe that such spren were "controlling" the Chasmfiend, and we've seen no evidence of that. But Kaladin does see two huge creatures.walking the plateaus during the Highstorm, brilliantly aglow with Stormlight. At first I thought they might have been Unmade, but now I think they were Chasmfiends that, through some spren bond, were absorbing Stormlight. Since Kaladin describes the Chasmfiend as appearing to possess a "malevolent intelligence," it makes one wonder what the role of Chasmfiends, with their spren bonds, will be in the future. Friend or foe? My last thought, and one I've been pondering, is the relationship between perception and reality on Roshar. Perception seems to have a big impact, whether in controlling the size of a flamespren, or the self-perception of an arm or a brand, or how long it takes to summon a shardblade. How far can this relationship be pushed? Will it be possible for a KR to fight like Neo in The Matrix, unbound by any restrictions, able to use any Surge? I look forward to finding out. P.S. - One more post and I'll be in double-digits! Hooray! P.P.S. - Apologies to all if this post is rambling, repetitive and/or snarky - it's way past my bedtime...

General comment on spren: I think spren are initially an undifferentiated mass of cognition-reflective entities. As cognitive beings (humans, listeners, maybe others we haven't seen yet) form thoughts, specific spren through some process differentiate themselves to reflect that thought. Pattern's explanation to Shallan of the meaning of "table" is a good example. A "table" can be conceptualized in many different ways - even the idea of a table "leg" is a human construct. But because humans perceive this object as a "table," "table spren" are formed. The Cognitive Realm is like Bishop Berkeley's philosophy that nothing exists except as it is perceived in an individual's mind. I think that Brandon's emphasis on the importance of perception in the Cosmere (or at least on Roshar) owes much to Bishop Berkeley. Bloodfalcon and Hoser: It is the idea of each Herald and what they represent that would cause a Herald spren to form, not the Herald's human "beingness." All Vorin religion adherents collectively conceptualize each Herald a certain way. That should result in Herald spren forming. It is exactly like the Stormfather and Nightwatcher, which personify certain other concepts, as I discuss in this post. And I believe that at least the Stormfather predates Honor's arrival on Roshar. A Shard's intent has nothing to do with it except to the extent humans conceptualize that intent in a certain way, allowing spren to form to personify that conceptualization. Moogle: You raise an interesting question - what DOES cause spren to seek out a human host in the Physical Realm? Most "sapient" spren we've seen are actively concerned about the next Desolation. Other spren "leak out" according to Jasnah. (Pattern is the one who uses the word "sapience" to describe what he hopes to achieve by entering the Physical Realm. "Sapience" means wisdom, to be distinguished from "sentience," which means the ability to sense or perceive. I don't know if Pattern's goal is universal among spren seeking the Physical Realm, but I find his phrasing more than interesting.) I don't think the rarity of a host is relevant, since Syl searched the world looking for Kaladin for quite a while. She found him only with the help of the windspren. So what would a Taln-spren want in a host? Bloodfalcon is correct in thinking that the Divine Attributes of "Dependable/Resourceful" are what attract KR-spren, not Herald-spren. Maybe the additional aspects of "great warrior-ness" (inventing words is so much fun...) or near-supernatural reflexes, size and strength? Maybe a deep anxiety over the impending Desolation? Some combination? I don't know. I think the best possibility is that the spren bonded with Taln himself, after Taln returned with a lost memory. It would be ironic if Taln's memory loss is permanent and it is the spren, over time remembering what it knew in Shadesmar, that forms Taln's personality. Anyway, as I said in the OP, I'm not pushing the Taln-spren idea. I just think there should be Herald spren on Roshar, and we haven't seen any yet.

I raised this question in another thread, but thought it deserved a broader audience: Why haven't we seen any Herald spren? The Heralds are as much an idea as Honor or Cultivation. Even though the Heralds are human, one would think that through the Vorin religion they've become idealized and should have become personified by the spren. If the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher, so-called "Godspren" (at least in this Forum), personify Honor and Cultivation (at least in part), why aren't there spren personifying each of the Heralds? Or maybe there are...Can "maybe-Taln" actually be a Taln-spren that's found a human warrior to bond with? That might explain "Taln's" confusion - his spren just hasn't adjusted to the Physical Realm yet. The human host might have lost his own memories, perhaps in a western Roshar battle, since there seems to be an ongoing war there.So all he's got is his spren trying to figure "Taln"-things out on his own. I don't know whether the host's abnormally quick reflexes are natural to him or spren/Stormlight-enhanced, and I assume he would have had his own shardblade, since it's clearly neither an Honorblade or a spren-blade. Or maybe it IS Taln who's been bonded by his own spren? Not really pushing the Taln-spren idea - it requires a lot of twisting of what we know to shoehorn it into something plausible - but it does seem odd that we haven't encountered a Herald spren. Thoughts?

Odium will not be "stopped" during SA. On a meta- meta-level, there will still 10-15 Cosmere books left after SA is over. Since Odium is the one of the biggest baddies left (if not the biggest) among the Shards, he'll have to survive SA. That means that the SA ending has to do with him somehow leaving the Roshar system, voluntarily or not, with Roshar intact. Odium will still be around to do hateful things elsewhere. Otherwise, Hoid wouldn't have anything to do...

This is great stuff! Keep it coming! Everyone’s been perfectly respectful. No worries, Kari, Kaellok, or anyone else. (And Kari, was that an exhaustion spren icon?) Regarding Kari’s “Surges can’t imprison Odium” argument: First, the word the second letter writer uses is “captive,” not “prison.” Captivity does not require a prison. Szeth was a de facto captive of his Oathstone, but the prison was of his own making: “Stone walls do not a prison make/ Nor iron bars a cage” (Richard Lovelace). Second, in my “Odium’s Plan” post, I cited the WoR Ars Arcanum statement that the Surges are not even Roshar’s “fundamental forces,” but merely the abilities that Honor gave the Heralds – “the bonds that drive Roshar,” according to the WoR Chapter 38 epigraph. I find these statements significant: the first for highlighting the unnatural essence of the Surges, the second for identifying them as “bonds.” Third, I agree with you that the Surges are ten different “expressions” of Stormlight. As Kaladin says, Stormlight is “the Surges reduced to some primal form.” (WoR Hardcover, p. 469.) But why would that affect whether any one or more expressions can be temporarily diminished? System-wide, Stormlight in all its forms (expressions) is conserved, merely undergoing form changes, just like mass-energy conversions in our world. But any one or more forms (Surges) can lose its potency as it is being used. The best evidence, as I mentioned in the “Odium’s Plan” post, is Honor’s fear that the Everstorm will cause Roshar to disintegrate. That is what one would expect to happen if Roshar loses the “bonds” – the Surges – that hold it together. I also have a silly reason to think the Surges are involved: the pattern of the KR chart. We’ve all questioned why some of the lines extend across the chart from seemingly unrelated orders – Windrunners and Lightweavers, for example. When I look at the chart, I see a net, as if all the Surges acting together create this net, trapping something. I do like your suggestion that the Surges may trap some essential part of Odium on Roshar. Another thread theorizes that Odium’s investiture in the Unmade is so massive as to keep him there. Perhaps the answer lies in some combination of these thoughts. And I think that Shallan is a small Horneater because that’s what happens to Horneaters who move out from the mountains to become “airsick lowlanders…” Seloun, you’ve come up with an elegant solution for why Desolations mirror the Heralds physical presence on Roshar. You may well be right, even if the Stormfather has yet to deny anyone’s request for an initial spren bond (or strengthened bond through the oaths), whether made by a KR or Eshonai. But maybe that’s because “maybe-Taln” is back on Roshar, according to your solution. Your “gravity alone” theory for keeping Odium captive in the Rosharian system, however, has the problem that Roshar’s gravitational field is likely not strong enough to extend out to Braize. I believe Forum calculations of Roshar’s mass show it to be relatively small. Amendment: In my “Odium’s Plan” discussion of the Origin being on one of Roshar’s moons, I should have included a statement that I think Jasnah found, that Urithiru was built “in the place closest to Honor.” Urithiru seems to be in the highest place on Roshar – which would be the point closest to its moons. I’ll amend that post to add this as further evidence of the assertion. Question: How come we have not seen any spren that personify the idea of the Heralds? Although the Heralds are human, each of them has also come to be an idea, certainly within Vorin religion. Shouldn’t some spren in Shadesmar personify that idea? In fact, maybe “Taln” is really the Taln-spren, just like the Nightwatcher is a combination Cultivation and Odium or Adonalsium spren (in my view). Final Crazy Idea: The Desolations are really just a proxy war between the Honor/Cultivation spren and the Odium spren. Humans and listeners are the weapons. We know that “spren politics are complex” (Jasnah). And we know that “war is the continuation of politics by other means” (von Clausewitz). The Recreance was caused by the KR’s discovery that the spren were simply using them. [Not really serious, but I’m mulling this over and may post on it.] Final Observation: I’ve been meaning to comment on Nale’s statement to Szeth that keeping one’s “word with perfection” is the only “genuine beauty” in this world (WoR Hardback, p. 1063). My response comes from Keats and Shakespeare: “’Beauty is truth, truth beauty’ - that is all Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.” John Keats, “Ode on a Grecian Urn,” last two lines. “Did my heart love till now, forswear it sight! For I ne’er saw true beauty till this night.” William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act I, Scene 5, lines 52-53 (when Romeo first sees Juliet at the Capulet’s party). Keats, one of my favorite poets, is the subject matter of Dan Simmons’ Hyperion SciFi/Horror/Fantasy novels, for which he won a number of awards including the Hugo Award. Three of the four books, Hyperion, The Fall of Hyperion and Endymion, are named for three of Keats’ poems. One of the novels’ central characters is a resurrected John Keats. His poem “Endymion” begins with the famous lines, apropos here, “A thing of beauty is a joy for ever; / Its loveliness increases; it will never / Pass into nothingness...”

This is a wonderful conversation. You all raise excellent points. Yes, more information would be very helpful, but if we had perfect information than this Forum wouldn't be much fun. Speculation is what brings us here (or at least me...) So let me step back a little for a BIG PICTURE overview. My starting point for this thread was my post about Odium's Plan. I've been trying to figure out for a while why Odium wants to destroy Roshar. If his goal is to play Highlander ("There can be only one...), and he didn't destroy other planets on which he splintered Shards, why here? That led me to conclude that it must be to free himself from the Roshar system. For the reasons stated in my earlier post, I further concluded that it must be the Surges themselves that hold him here. I intended this thread as a corollary to that conclusion: why do Desolations begin when Heralds return and, more interestingly, why must Heralds leave or they'll start a new Desolation? It seemed to me that, based on the available information, it related to their use of the Surges. Perhaps some of the textual evidence I cited was weak - particularly about the Heralds' abandonment of their Honorblades to permit them to remain on Roshar. Seloun poked a nice hole in that one. But I still think that abandonment had more to do with their remaining on Roshar than merely foreswearing their Oathpact oaths. That would help explain why the Skybreakers (I believe) moved the Honorblades to Shinovar, the place of little Stormlight. Coupled with what is apparently Nale's sole comment about the relationship between surgebinding and Desolations (thank you, Kari), I felt (and feel) that the evidence is sufficient for the theory. Again, whether or not there is textual evidence, the real basis for the theory in this post is the conclusion reached in the earlier post that the Surges imprison Odium. That conclusion predicts this theory: any temporary weakening of the Surges would enable Odium to fight back. Given how little we know this early in the series, to me that's as good a speculation as I can now come up with. Regarding the KR and fabrials using Surges, Moogle had done a better job than I could explaining that one. It may also be that there's something about either the Honorblades or the Heralds themselves that affects the Surges in different ways than the KR's Nahel bond does - different in kind, not just quantity. Nale's comment to Lift may simply be his bent mind thinking the Heralds' and KR's usage is identical in kind. Finally, I want to address one specific point. I am not arguing that the use of Stormlight per se causes this problem. Using Stormlight for lighting and other purposes should have no effect. The problem stems from surgebinding - drawing down on the Surges temporarily until Stormlight can replenish them.

EMTrevor: The OP is really an effort to explain Nale's belief about what caused the Desolations and why the Heralds could not stay on Roshar following each Desolation. The operative word in my Recreance speculation was "perhaps." I don't necessarily buy that's the cause of the Recreance, just raising the possibility. I've previously posted that I believe the Recreance had something to do with the destruction of Stormseat, though maybe not in the way I suggested in that post (Skybreaker bombardment). I still think complicity in Stormseat's destruction is more likely a cause for the Recreance than that the KR believed surgebinding caused the Desolations. And regarding Nale's "investiture" in the Lift Interlude, using Stormlight in its general way of building strength and speed, etc. is not surgebinding. That's all Nale did in that chapter. Seloun: You make excellent points. Some responses: During earlier Desolations, the Heralds did not consider abandoning the Oathpact. They still needed their Honorblades for future use. Although Honorblades are "given" (whatever that means), perhaps relinquishing their Honorblades might have broken the Heralds' connection with their Blades, or at least they feared it might. It may have been part of the Oathpact that they leave Roshar after each Desolation, whether or not the reason was ever explained to them. Nale may have subsequently discovered the reason (or at least what he thought was the reason), as Moogle says. Even if the Heralds knew the reason, they may not have wanted to tempt themselves by hanging around with their Honorblades. The Heralds may not have cared about the KR surgebinding, either because they didn't then know about the issue (see paragraph 2) or because they thought that the problem only applied to their own surgebinding, given the Honorblades' greater consumption of Stormlight. "Bent" Nale may have gone after fledgling Nahel surgebinders precisely because he WAS "bent" (corrupted). We know from the Diagram and WoB that a Herald returning to Roshar triggers a Desolation. We don't know where they go in between, how they get there or who is responsible for them being there. We've assumed Odium is responsible for the torture, even though he's not party to the Oathpact, because it makes sense that he would want to force the Heralds back to Roshar and trigger the next Desolation. But maybe it's the Nightwatcher - the Heralds given the boon of immortality and great power in exchange for the curse of torture when they leave Roshar. And maybe the "torture" is all in their heads, occurring in the Cognitive Realm. (Milton's Paradise Lost: "The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven.") In short, the Heralds were bound by the Oathpact to leave Roshar, and they didn't control what happened to them in between. And, of course, it's possible this is all wrong, or at least not the "full explanation," and that there's something inherent in the Heralds that causes Desolations if they're on Roshar. But there is also other evidence supporting the OP's theory. It seems more than coincidence that the Honorblades were taken to the one place on Roshar that receives little Stormlight - Shinovar. I agree with those who think the original Skybreakers became the Stone Shamanate. By controlling the Honorblades the Skybreakers can limit how much surgebinding goes on. (I also believe the Skybreakers collected many abandoned KR shardblades and sets of shardplate following the Recreance. Someone somewhere observed how relatively few such items have been found on Roshar compared with the many former KR. I think the Skybreakers are also keeping these in Shinovar - why Helaran and Nale's minion in the Lift interlude had such items. But that's not pertinent to this thread.)

Bent Nale frequently states his concern that surgebinding will bring on a Desolation. (For why I call him “Bent Nale,” read this post.) I’m certain he believes he’s right, and he may actually be right, at least as to the Heralds’ use of surgebinding. Here’s why: Surgebinding uses Stormlight to manipulate the Surges. Surgebinding draws upon Roshar’s Surges and redirects them to achieve the surgebinder’s goals. While the Cosmere’s magic systems, including Roshar’s, adhere to the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy (WoB), surgebinding temporarily weakens the Surges as they are being drawn upon. In a recent post, I posited that the Roshar Surges themselves imprison Odium and that the Everstorm is designed to prevent Stormlight from reinvesting the Surges, ultimately freeing Odium. When the Heralds use excessive amounts of Stormlight to surgebind, the weakened Surges permit Odium to again exercise influence on Roshar through a Desolation. Evidence: WoB states that if the Heralds linger on Roshar after prevailing in one Desolation, another Desolation will begin. Hence, they must leave Roshar. Honorblades require much higher amounts of Stormlight to surgebind than does the Nahel bond. When the nine Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, they left their Honorblades behind. So…the Heralds use their Honorblades to defeat Odium during each Desolation. The Honorblades suck up enormous amounts of Stormlight, with correspondingly large impact on the Surges. If the Heralds were to stay on Roshar following a Desolation and continue to surgebind (perhaps by helping humankind recover from its losses in people and material culture, pre-KR), they would further weaken the Surges, allowing another Desolation to begin. Thus, when the nine Heralds decided to stay on Roshar, they abandoned their Honorblades so this wouldn’t happen. I’m not sure this analysis applies to the KR, because of the more efficient Stormlight usage from the Nahel bond. But since there are so many KR, it’s possible. And, as many have speculated, perhaps that is what caused the Recreance – the KR’s desire to avoid a new Desolation by relinquishing their ability to surgebind.

No apologies necessary, Maxal. I was genuinely flattered! And I do agree that in Rysn's case, she is already "obedient" in a conventional sense. But my point in that post (as to Dustbringers) was that the Nahel bond tempers what may be a foolhardy bravery. In jumping from such a height, Rysn acted in a foolhardy way. "Obedience" is not blind adherence to instruction (otherwise, you have a Szeth). Rather, in the context of a Dustbringer, obedience is the recognition that sometimes one should exercise restraint to avoid foolish displays of bravery, the kind that shatters your legs. Her babsk would not have required that of her. And none of this is to say that Rysn will become a Dustbringer. It does seem a strange KR order for Rysn, even if she ends up riding into battle mounted on a Ryshadium! Regarding Bondsmiths, I agree with you that if the "one KR per order" theory obtains, three Bondsmiths seems too many. But I don't adhere to that theory. I think we'll see many more KR, even if they're not the leading characters of the book. But it's all speculation at this point...

Maxal, why do you think Dalinar will be the only Bondsmith? Do you have any textual evidence to support this belief? As stated in my OP, the only two potential KRs I am reasonably confident about are Eshonai and Szeth. The other choices are more speculative. I do believe that Axies and Rysn have important roles to fill whether or not they become KR. I am gratified, though, that you paraphrased my own post back at me to justify your view: "The Meaning of Primary and Secondary Attributes?"

Thank you all for the kind comments! Responses: PercyJackson: Regardless of whether I'm right or not about Zahel's role in the storyline, he will need something to stay alive. I believe that the shortage of Stormlight in Urithiru at the end of WoR is foreshadowing. Of the many predictions I make, I'm reasonably confident that the Everstorm will interfere with Roshar's (or at least Urithiru's) Stormlight reserves. potato: I don't think HIghstorms are tidal. Peter was pretty explicit in that "Moons of Roshar" thread I linked to that Roshar's moons lack much mass and, though close to Roshar, have little gravitational pull. I'm just positing that the Highstorms' Stormlight comes from one of the moons.

Thanks, Rshara, you make an excellent point! Let me see if I can work my way through it. The bits of Shard keep the Shard's intent even after the Shard's splintering. (If Nightblood consumed the Shard, I guess it wouldn't even be splintering, just a transfer.) And if Nightblood itself were then shattered (in a non-Cosmere sense), then the bits of the Shard would simply enter any sentient being around. (This is what I believe happened with Honor - his splinters entered the Stormfather, until the Stormfather somehow released them - why the Stormfather is a sliver of Honor.) And if there weren't any sentient beings around because, say, Nightblood was thrust into a star's gravity and burned up, then the bits of Shard would coalesce into its own sentient being, with "bizarre effects" if I recall WoB correctly. That only leaves two choices that I can see. One, widely scatter the bits of Shard so when those bits attach themselves, it will be to many different beings and the Shard's intent ends up diluted. Or recombine the Shards (which may be where Brandon is going.) Because the problem with Adonalsium's shattering is that it left each Shard unbalanced by the other fifteen intents. So Odium became pure hatred, untempered by Devotion or Preservation or any of the other shardic intents. And if there's no way to destroy any intent, the only thing left is to balance them, kind of like what Sazed did with his two conveniently complementary shards. Where's Khriss when you need him (her? it?) But if Nightblood did consume Odium and "became" Odium, would it acquire independent mobility or could you keep Nightblood in its sheath, like a genie in a bottle?

My post was Confusing, as I conflated two issues. I meant that we can't assess Nale's behavior by ANY legal system, whether common law, continental, Sharia, etc.. He was killing surgebinders for other reasons. I think he was Odium-influenced, as I mentioned in my post about Odium's long-term plan. But others have different explanations. Regarding your Wikipedia citation, I read it to refer to causation - whether the defendant's actions were the reason for the victim's death. If not, then no murder occurred. Maybe a battery, but no murder. The statute of limitations is a different issue. A statute of limitations sets the time within which a person can be charged for a crime. For most crimes, if authorities haven't charged the suspect within the requisite statute period - usually for lack of evidence - then even if the police discover evidence later on, too much time has elapsed for the suspect to be charged. Otherwise, every suspect of any crime - guilty or innocent, misdemeanor or felony - will walk around for the rest of their life wondering if Inspector Javert is on their heels. Criminal statutes of limitations are designed for peace of mind. But murder suspects don't get peace of mind. Their potential murderers. That's why the TV show "Cold Case" always focused on murders. There is no statute of limitations for murder. And even for other crimes, if the suspect leaves the jurisdiction (like the director Roman Polanski did after the accusation of statutory rape), then the statute of limitations is suspended until the suspect returns to the jurisdiction. Didn't mean to ramble, just clarify...

Can Nightblood consume a Shard's full Investiture? Can he kill Odium this way? (Is Nightblood a "he"?) I'm asking because I raised this question in my posted opus on what Odium's plan is and how he can be defeated. I speculated that this might be the means of his end. Thoughts?

Why does anyone think Anglo-American conceptions of law would have any bearing on what Nale does? It's a just pretext for him. And I don't believe murder has a statute of limitations anywhere in the Anglo-American legal system. There was the recent case of the former Weather Underground terrorist who changed her name and became a suburban mother of three and a respected member of her New England community. She turned herself in because of a bombing that killed someone forty years earlier. She's still in prison.

I addressed the question of how the Stormfather could simultaneously be a spren, a sliver and a splinter of Honor in this post. I concluded that: The Stormfather was a spren to the listeners, personifying the Highstorms, before humans came to Roshar. Humans personified Honor (the "Almighty") as the Stormfather, by which the Stormfather became Honor's spren. The Stormfather was the only sentient being present when Odium splintered Honor, other than Odium and Honor themselves. WoB says that when a Shard is shattered "Somebody needs to hold the magic. [Otherwise] the magic will gain sentience. Interesting and bizarre things happen then..." Odium did not want Honor's magic, because it would have diluted his intent (WoB). I concluded that the Stormfather temporarily absorbed Honor's splinters, "fled," and then released the splinters, greatly increasing the number of spren on Roshar. WoB: "[spren] were much more prevalent following Honor and what happened to him." Since the Stormfather also retained a splinter of Honor himself, he was in fact simultaneously a spren, a splinter and sliver of Honor, as he claims, all in a Cosmere sense. On another topic, this thread has some of the best posters on this Forum. I'm very curious what you all think of my post yesterday explaining what Odium's long-term plan is and how he will be defeated. (Shameless plug, but I really am curious what others think.) Thanks!

THEORY IN BRIEF I believe the Surges keep Odium captive in the Rosharian planetary system. As part of his long-term plan, Odium causes the listeners to create the Everstorm. The Everstorm will block the Highstorms’ reinvestment of Stormlight on Roshar. Without that reinvestment, the Surges will not be able to renew themselves. Roshar will break apart, and Odium will be free to leave the Roshar system. While the Everstorm circles, the human and other survivors will find themselves besieged in Urithiru surrounded by the Voidbringer hosts. Urithiru’s Stormlight resources will be severely depleted. To restore them, Kaladin will break free of the siege, travel to the Origin, and bring back to Urithiru substantial new Stormlight reserves. Urithiru will then be capable of fighting the Voidbringers and holding out far longer than Odium expects. Odium, fearing he may lose this war, will be forced to accept the challenge of a duel of champions. Kaladin will defeat Odium’s champion, reestablishing Odium’s captivity. “TANAVAST’S DESIGN” OF ODIUM’S CAPTIVITY The Rosharian System Imprisons Odium The writer of the “second letter” claims Odium cannot leave the Rosharian system: “Rayse is captive. He cannot leave the system he now inhabits. His destructive potential is, therefore, inhibited.” (Epigraph to WoR Chapter 69.) The writer is unsure “[w]hether this was Tanavast’s design or not…” (Epigraph to WoR Chapter 70.) The Surges Form the Prison The WoR Ars Arcanum author believes the ten Surges – “thought to be the fundamental forces by which [Roshar] operates – are more accurately a representation of the ten basic abilities offered to the Heralds, and then the Knights Radiant, by their bonds.” (WoR Hardcover, p. 1084.) The in-world Words of Radiance author describes the Surges as “the bonds that drive Roshar itself.” (WoR Epigraph to Chapter 38, emphasis added.) If the Surges do not accurately describe the “fundamental forces” of Roshar, then Honor must have had some other reason for placing them on Roshar. Whether by design or not, the result of their creation was to imprison Odium in the Rosharian system. Evidence The best proof that the Surges imprison Odium is the action he takes to escape his captivity. That is the Everstorm. Honor fears the Everstorm will cause Roshar to fall into dust. (WoK Paperback, pp. 1244-45.). That is the expected result when the “bonds that drive Roshar itself” – that literally hold the planet together – are stripped away. Odium has no other reason to destroy Roshar. If he simply wanted to splinter Cultivation, he does not need to destroy Roshar to do so. He did not destroy Sel when he splintered Devotion and Dominion there and he did not previously destroy Roshar when he splintered Honor. The destruction of Roshar is simply the by-product of the elimination of the Surges. That is why I conclude that the Surges are the instruments of Odium’s captivity. ODIUM’S PLAN TO FREE HIMSELF Stormlight Reinvests Roshar’s Magic, Including the Surges Odium’s plan is to interrupt the cycle of magical reinvestment on Roshar, causing the Surges to fail. WoB (somewhere) states that magical investiture is generally a renewable resource. On Roshar, Stormlight is the means of that renewal. Kaladin describes Stormlight as “the Surges reduced to some primal form.” (WoR Hardcover, p. 469.) WoB analogizes Stormlight to the mist in Mistborn, It is the gaseous state of Honor’s (and Cultivation’s?) investiture on Roshar. Two Elements to Odium’s Plan Odium’s plan has two broad elements. The first is to soak up existing Stormlight through the creation of a horde of Voidbringers. Voidbringers, according to Szeth, can “hold [stormlight] in perfectly” (WoK Paperback, p. 13). The second element is to block the Highstorms’ reinvestment of Stormlight. The Everstorm accomplishes both elements. The Everstorm will gain strength with each of its revolutions around Roshar. Its next pass will convert the Parshmen into Stormform listeners. During future passes, these new listeners will add their song to what the Shattered Plains listeners started, increasing the size and scope of the Everstorm. In his dream Kaladin sees the Everstorm as “so enormous as to make the continent – the world itself – into nothing by comparison“ – much bigger than when the Everstorm began on the Shattered Plains. (WoR Hardback, p. 369, emphasis in original.) Because the Everstorm moves in the opposite direction from the Highstorms, as it grows in force it will first prevent the Highstorms from reaching the Rosharian continent. Eventually the Everstorm may prevent Highstorms from forming at all, blowing them away at their birth. WoB states Highstorms were initially a meteorological event, but at some point became magical as well, presumably through the addition of Stormlight. We don’t know how Stormlight gets added to the Highstorms, although it’s a safe guess that that occurs at the Origin. Regardless, it seems reasonable to assume that a catastrophic storm multiples larger than a Highstorm should be able to kill a Highstorm in its cradle. The Diagram’s Prediction Taravangian’s Diagram seems to agree that the Everstorm is Odium’s path to freedom: "destroy [the listeners] outright before [one of them] obtains their power. ​It will form a bridge." (Epigraph to WoR Chapter 89, reformatted and emphasis added.) I interpret this statement to mean the Everstorm (created by the listeners’ “power”) is the bridge by which Odium will escape the Rosharian system. Odium’s Plan to Destroy Surgebinders Part of Odium’s plan has been to thwart or destroy those who might oppose him – Surgebinders: the Heralds and the KR. Odium has used several tactics to implement this stratagem: First, he influenced nine of the Heralds to abandon the Oathpact (as many in this Forum have speculated). Second, I believe Odium caused the Recreance (whatever its apparent immediate cause) to break up the KR and eliminate them. Third, he influenced Nale to kill fledging surgebinders (as many in this Forum have speculated) so the KR could not reestablish itself. Fourth, he caused the listeners to create the Everstorm. If the Everstorm can eliminate Stormlight, neither the Heralds nor the KR will be able to surgebind, When Odium first set upon his plan, he was dealing only with the Heralds, inefficient users of Stormlight through their Honorblades. The spren, perhaps in anticipation of the Everstorm, created the Nahel bond with humans, a much more efficient means of using Stormlight and, hence, the Surges. This flaw in Odium’s plan enables the KR to hold out longer than Odium expects during the Siege of Urithiru. Odium’s Plan Began Many Millenia Ago Odium has been planning for the Everstorm a long time. The Stormfather tells Dalinar that the Everstorm is “a new thing, but old of design.” (WoR Hardcover, p. 1070.) The Desolations began as a war by one of Roshar’s native populations, the listeners, to repel the human invaders of Roshar. WoB states there were no Desolations before humans came to Roshar. The humans won these wars, evicting the listeners from more and more territory. Hatred of humans led some of the listeners to become “unmade” by Odium into his creatures. These listener “gods” introduced the forms of power. Through these forms, Odium began to wield influence among the listeners. Further losses to humans over the millennia led the Lost Legion to abandon their gods. Before the final battle of the Last Desolation, Melishi the Bondsmith developed his plan to enslave listeners by stripping them of their spren rather than destroying them (or so many suspect). I believe Odium influenced Melishi to adopt this plan so that Odium would have potential Stormform listeners available to him when the time came. There has been no Desolation for the past four millennia because Odium realized he didn’t need to cause one – that humankind itself was capable of sufficient hatred without external influence. Thus, Honor tells Dalinar that “[Odium]’s realized that you, given time, will become your own enemies. That he doesn’t need to fight you. Not if he can make you forget, make you turn against one another…” (WoK Paperback, p. 1246, emphasis in original.) Human forgetfulness has made them ignore Parshmen until the time comes for Odium to use them. Recent Events Gavilar came into contact with descendants of the Lost Legion a year or two before SA began. We can assume he found the black stone that he gave to Szeth at about the same time, since that is when Gavilar “changed” (according to several characters). WoB states that the light in that stone is not Stormlight and heavily implies it is a form of Odium’s investiture. Part of Gavilar’s changed behavior was to become more religious. He also joined/founded the Sons of Honor, with Amaram. Their goal was to bring back the Voidbringers so the Heralds would return. I believe Odium influenced Gavilar in these respects. I also believe Odium influenced Gavilar to share his plan with the visiting listeners, anticipating the listeners would assassinate Gavilar and start the War of Vengeance. (Perhaps it will turn out that Amaram suggested to Gavilar that he do this.) The war reduced the listeners to a state where they were willing to embrace the Everstorm. Odium influenced Venli to re-discover Stormform rather than the forms of peace, as Eshonai expected. We know the rest... HOW ODIUM WILL BE DEFEATED It begins with the re-founding of the KR and their re-occupation of Urithiru. I believe Honor’s plea to Dalinar to “unite them” has multiple levels: unite the KR, unite all humankind, and unite all of Roshar’s peoples, ancient and nouveau. Honor binds, hatred divides – a strong theme of SA. All will join in the war, including some of the Heralds, eventually finding their way to Urithiru. Honor says to Dalinar: “The sun approaches the horizon. The Everstorm comes. The True Desolation. The Night of Sorrows. You must prepare. Build of your people a fortress of strength and peace, a wall to resist the winds.” (WoK Paperback, p. 1242.) Urithiru is shaped with the eastward side flat and the westward side curved to withstand the Everstorm – “a wall to resist the winds.” Honor calls the Everstorm the “Night of Sorrows” because of the extended period of darkness the Everstorm will bring. Members of the New KR Not coincidentally, the KR we currently know or anticipate includes members of different countries and races: at least four from Alethkar (Dalinar, Kaladin, Renarin and Jasnah), one from Jah Keved (Shallan), one from the Reshi Isles (Lift), and one (probably) from Shinovar (Szeth). To these, I believe we can add the following characters (and maybe some others we haven’t met yet): Eshonai. Her fall into the chasms will find Eshonai reunited with her mother and the listeners who escaped Eshonai’s coup. Here her comet spren will finally chase away the stormspren and bond with her, making her a Willshaper – the first listener KR. (It’s hard to imagine her having a book otherwise…) Rysn. Whether or not Rysn (from Thaylenah) ends up a KR, she will be crucial nonetheless because of her Larkin. If she does become a KR, she will be a Releaser/Dustbringer because she is both astonishingly brave (foolhardy?) and obedient (to a fault). She already has had two Interludes… Ym. Since Ym (from Iri) had the Surge of Progression, I’m not convinced he’s dead. If Jasnah, without that Surge, could survive a stab through the heart, I think someone with that Surge should be able to survive as well. Though he was “killed” with a shardblade, so was Szeth, whom Nale resurrected with a Progression fabrial. Ym might have saved himself with his own Progression Surge. Probably a Truthwatcher. Zahel. As a Returned with Divine Breath and access to the Spiritual Realm, Zahel is an ideal candidate for a Bondsmith. By the time he reaches Urithiru, he may have recovered Nightblood. Nightblood will be ecstatic fighting the Voidbringers – so much evil investiture to consume, so little time…I’ll make a prediction here: Nightblood will be the means of destroying Odium, consuming every last bit of his Shard. I suspect that won’t be in SA though. Axies. I’m not sure whether Axies the Collector will be a KR, but if so, I believe he will also be a Bondsmith. Either way, his knowledge of spren will be enormously valuable to the anti-Odium faction: He will find a way to reverse the effects of Odium’s influence on the listeners who adopted the forms of power. Kaladin/Fleet Will Seek New Stormlight Reserves By the time we reach the last book in the series, the Everstorm survivors will be making their last stand at Urithiru, surrounded by the Voidbringer host. The Everstorm will have caused the near divestiture of all of Roshar’s Stormlight by interfering with the Highstorms. Urithiru’s Stormlight reserves will be almost gone, incapacitating the KR. Things will be looking bad for our heroes… In desperation, Kaladin will use the remaining Stormlight reserves to seek out the Origin. The KR will launch a sortie to distract the Voidbringers. Because Kaladin is Fleet, he will race out of Urithiru and make his escape. But where is the Origin? The Origin Is on One of Roshar’s Moons! I believe Kaladin will find Stormlight on one of Roshar’s moons. Here is a WoB on point: Q: “Do the moons relate to the Highstorms at all?” A: “The moons...at all? Sure! You'll love this. The star's age, at Roshar – Earth astronomers would say that is a star which could not have planets with life on them orbiting it.” I interpret Brandon’s oblique, but pertinent, answer in context to mean that the Stormlight that invests the Highstorms and brings life to Roshar comes from one of the moons. He tells us that Roshar should not have life on it, yet it does. He’s tells us in another WoB that “Stormlight makes plants grow” (written into a fan’s book). And his answer here comes in response to a question about the relationship between Roshar’s moons and Highstorms. Here’s another relevant WoB: Q: “If [a Windrunner had] enough heating fabrials and enough Stormlight, how high up could [he] go?” A: “He could theoretically break orbit if he has Stormlight for air, and he could manipulate gravity. They have actually figured how long it would take to make it to the various moons.” I don’t believe the Sanderson Crew did that calculation just for fun. It has to be relevant to the story line. Peter has said that the moons come very close to Roshar during the night: “Roshar's moons are much much closer than our moon. Their elliptical orbits bring them closer to Roshar's surface during the night…” (For an excellent discussion of the astronomy of the Rosharian moons, check out this thread.) It should take Kaladin about two hours to reach the moon that is the Origin (though it is still unclear which one it is). The Larkin Stores the Stormlight Kaladin will take Rysn’s Larkin with him to the moon, where it will store enormous amounts of Stormlight to bring back. Will this increase the Larkin’s size, perhaps turning it into some kind of Greatshell? Will it be able to fly back itself? Will Rysn give it a name…? (Personally, I like Lex Larkin.) Kaladin may suffer significant damage from his potential over-exposure to the Origin’s Stormlight, perhaps crystallizing him like one of Dalinar’s soulcasters. Syl warned him of Stormlight over-exposure in WoR. I suspect that the Larkin will protect Kaladin by absorbing the excess Stormlight from him. The Duel of Champions With the new Stormlight reserves, the Siege of Urithiru will hold out long enough to persuade Odium to agree to a battle of champions: “Vex Odium, convince him that he can lose, and appoint a champion…” (WoR, p. 76.) Kaladin will go up against something representing Odium, and Kaladin will defeat it. (It wouldn’t be much of a story otherwise…) The good guys win, and hatred is again put back in the bottle Some intriguing questions and observations: As a Son of Honor (a real one, not like Gavilar and Amaram), Kaladin will not cheat during the duel. But his opponent will, perhaps with help from other Voidbringers. Will Kaladin be restricted only to the Windrunner Surges? Will his trip to the Origin change him in any way, allowing him access to other powers or Surges? Can he be given the non-Jezrien Honorblades for other Surges, even if he only uses Syl as his shard-weapon? Will he have enough Stormlight to use them all? The End. Thanks for reading!

I think Renarin's reaction to Relis readying himself for the fatal strike is significant. He seems to surrender himself in almost a ritualistic way. But we have no evidence that Renarin is suicidal - even if he couldn't effectively fight, he still could have stood up and looked Relis in the eye, challenging him: "Do you really want to do this, Relis?" That makes me think that when Renarin closed his eyes and looked upward, he was doing some "Truthwatch-y" thing. Since he's new to surgebinding, even with Glys guiding him, all Renarin could do was make Relis hesitate for just a moment. Since time manipulation works on Scadrial, why wouldn't it work on Roshar? I'm surprised FeatherWriter hasn't chimed in here. She knows more about Renarin than anyone. I'm curious what she thinks Renarin's capabilities are.