Confused

@Oversleep, I think we’re close to agreement. You say: “Investiture is electricity, focus is the machine and magic user is person who presses button ‘ON.’” I say: “Spiritual Realm investiture is electricity, Cognitive Realm investiture directs the “machine” (which may exist in and/or target any Realm), and the magician is the Physical Realm person whose Mind turned on the machine.” Why do I say “Cognitive Realm investiture” when you say “focus”? Focus isn’t always the “machine” as you acknowledge with Vin and Surgebinders; but Cognitive Realm investiture – a Shard’s or magician’s Mind –is always present. That’s why in the OP I describe “focus” as the “Cognitive Realm means of accessing power on a given planet to achieve a desired…magical effect.” If you want to agree with that definition, which is broad enough to encompass Vin, Surgebinders and the Returned, then our debate is done. Otherwise, your definition would exclude Vin in full mist-suck mode, as well as Surgebinders and the Returned. Most mortal magician’s cognitive capabilities can’t control the flow of power. Their cognitive means of access requires a “nozzle.” Skaa’s “L-String Theory” predicts such “nozzles” are different vibration frequencies, “resonance” points, whether expressed in the molecular structure of metals, the color of gemstones, Edgli’s colors, or specific Selish forms. With sufficient investiture the magician’s mind no longer needs the crutch of a nozzle. It can shape and control the power on its own. That is what both Surgebinders and Returned do. They are each attached to a sapient amount of cognitive investiture that allows them to exercise magic directly. That’s where the “nozzle” theory of focus breaks down, at higher investiture levels. Just because the vibration frequencies of specific metals mandate the type of power available to Vin doesn’t mean she didn’t start the process with a command. She did press the “On” button, as you put it. She’s not responsible for how magic works, or even knowing how it works. She’s only cognitively responsible for using it. When you run, you fall forward onto one foot while pushing off the other. You don’t have to know how your muscles electrically fire or how your body processes lactose. You tell your body to run in a given direction, and it does. Vin selects the type of power she wants, chooses to burn the requisite metal when she wants, and chooses to release the power how she wants. That all sounds pretty cognitive to me. @Master_Moridin, I read your last quoted WoB as supporting my time comments. @Argent asked what happens after “a certain breaking point where you kind of crack the whole system, peer straight into the cognitive realm, and kind of have a ‘It's full of stars’ moment." That’s what MISTER Sanderson corrects to say he meant the “Spiritual Realm.” Up until that point, the WoB suggests that atium’s temporal changes do occur in the Cognitive Realm. @Yata, fair point. I describe these things as “oddities” because each is different from the others. They are not odd in the same way. If Oversleep accepts my “focus” definition above, then I’ll back off this point.

Thank you, for your responses! Much appreciated! You ask why should I care what word we use? Answer: I don’t. My problem is with the underlying concept – there is no Forum consensus on the meaning of a “focus,” let alone a coherent theory that adds predictive value to our understanding of the Cosmere. That’s why I call this theory a “myth.” Let me address this with my usual ponderous prose. (Ah, to be as light as @FeatherWriter. What clear and simple exposition! I’m stuck trying to express myself with heavy sludge…) Why We Theorize We theorize because we, the 17th Shard community, struggle together to understand the “Easter eggs” and other story elements that MISTER Sanderson has not yet fully developed. We seek to comprehend the Cosmere better. And, we have nothing better to do while waiting for MISTER Sanderson to finish more books… I know I’ve made many changes to my theories based on suggestions or comments folks have made here. If I try to shape your views, IMO it’s toward a common goal. Truth-finding is a collective experience. Any theory must meet two criteria: it must comport with known “facts,” and it must be internally consistent, that is, make sense on its own terms. If a theory passes those thresholds, it may be correct. But then a third criteria arises: does the theory predict future events; does it explain something meaningful that can’t be explained better in some other way? I believe the “theory of foci” fails under this third criteria (and maybe the second too, but I’ll pass). The examples you all cite show us a possible PATTERN, but that pattern doesn’t help us predict anything. Compare the “theory of mandates/intents,” which does predict the ways in which Shards can exercise their power. {Thank you, @Chaos.) As I show below, the theory of foci confuses rather than illuminates. “Focus” Definitions I haven’t seen a Forum consensus definition of the word “focus.” Just look at the ongoing “Roshar’s Focus” thread for an example of the confusion. @Oversleep says here on that thread that “Magic is interaction between focus and Intent - focus is the means by which you access the Investiture and Intent is how you do it.” I totally disagree with this statement, but that’s not for present discussion. The focus definition is: “the means by which you access the Investiture.” Compare @Moogle’s definition: “Focuses take the place of a mind,” meaning they help a magician “shape” the flow of power into the Physical Realm without the magician’s “understanding” or “participation in the process.” In an earlier post, Moogle defined a focus as “Something that holds Investiture on the planet. Blinds any Shard (probably) Invested in the planet.” @Yata: “in any Shardworld ‘something’ (probably in the Spiritual Realm) spread the Magic in the Shardworld...And the magic System are ‘naturally buil[t]’ f[ro]m Shard's Investiture and Shardworld's Focus.” I understand Yata to mean that a “focus” is the Spiritual Realm aspect of a Shardworld responsible for the distribution of magic on that Shardworld. The combination of a Shard’s investiture with that “focus” creates the Shardworld’s magic system. [Yata, please correct me if I’m misstating your meaning.] In 2013, @Senor Feesh offered this definition (bold and italics in original): “something that enables a magic system, without necessarily being magical itself.” He gives the examples of Selish forms/symbols, Scadrian metallic molecular structures, and word-based commands on Nalthis. These definitions address related but not identical phenomena. If we can’t even agree on what a “focus” is, how can we effectively theorize about it, let alone make predictions based on any such theory? What good does such a theory do; how does it contribute to our Cosmere understanding? That’s my objection to the “theory of foci” – our inability to agree on the underlying concept, not the word itself. An Alternate Explanation IMO basic Cosmere-ology explains this stuff without creating new concepts like “focus.” WoB tells us that Shardworld magic systems grow out of the interactions between a Shard’s mandate (intent) and the host planet. Such magic systems are unique to the Shardworld. Each of the three Realms in which that Shardworld exists is likewise unique. Unique magic systems have unique oddities, like the “Metallic Arts” on Scadrial where Shards are metal-blind or form-based commands on Sel. Every Shardworld/magic system has some oddity or another. We can agree on that. But I see no usable pattern to that uniqueness, no common thread of predictability. Little about Scadrial predicts how magic works on Roshar. Little on Nalthis predicts what will happen on Sel. WITH ONE BIG EXCEPTION. IMO throughout the Cosmere magic always starts in the Cognitive Realm – in the mind – with a cognitive command of some sort, directing the “true investiture” of the Spiritual Realm to accomplish some end. How the magician issues that command differs from Shardworld to Shardworld and the effects of that command differ from Shardworld to Shardworld. But magic IMO proceeds in that sequence throughout the Cosmere. Let’s look at some examples to illustrate my point that “focuses” have nothing to do with this. Scadrial Moogle defines “focus” as an intrinsic property of investiture, something that can “tak[e] raw Investiture and giv[e] it direction” with minimal input from the magician. Focus “shapes” or “filters” the power flow, like a “nozzle” on a garden hose. That shaping in his opinion largely replaces the need for the magician’s conscious involvement. I believe he undervalues Vin’s conscious involvement. Moogle notes that Vin commands Preservation’s power by burning whatever metal she needs. He says “Vin's only participation in the process was opening the floodgates (and mentally selecting a blue line).” Vin chose to open the floodgates by burning iron. She didn’t have to open the floodgates at that moment. She didn’t have to use iron versus another metal. Her mind made the decision to draw down the power when and how she did, and her mind used the power with such skill. Metal may have been the pathway for that power, but power’s conscious use clearly requires a consciousness. In what way did Scadrial’s “focus” on metals affect Vin’s ability to use the magic, other than in providing her a pathway to it? If Oversleep’s definition is correct – focus is “the means by which you access the Investiture” – then Vin’s means of burning metals should have some analog on some other Shardworld. Other than Lift, whose investiture consumption method (though not material) is identical to Vin’s, there isn’t any non-Scadrian analog. Vin burning metals only predicts that other Scadrian investiture might be accessed through metals, which is true. Roshar I’ve seen posters claim that Roshar’s focus is the Nahel bond, the spren, Stormlight or gemstones. Moogle asks, “what does one do to channel Roshar's power when one is not a Shard?” Answer: Surgebinders DON’T “channel Roshar’s power.” They are ATTACHED to Roshar’s power through the Nahel bond. When Kaladin wants to fly, Syl senses his command (as when she shifts Shard-shapes) because their minds are connected. Syl as cognitive investiture issues the command to the Spiritual Realm on Kaladin’s behalf to change the direction of the Gravity Surge (for example). The Radiant spren are not pathways to power, a means to exercise power. They ARE power, the Cognitive Realm aspect of it. Posters on the “Roshar Focus” thread search in vain for a “focus” there because none exists. On Roshar a splinter simply exercises its own power on behalf of a KR. “Rosharan Fabrials”: I can only address the spren-based fabrials. IMO fabrial spren hold an equivalent amount of power to Radiant spren. They too are sapient. But they are bound within the gemstone. IMO they rely on the fabrial-user’s mind for direction of their power, almost like a temporary bond between them. (Such an incomplete bond might be what causes soulcasters to become stone-like.) Their “imprisonment” within specific colored gemstones may have to do with the Stormlight radiation bandwidth allowed to reach the spren. Other than in fabrials (and IMO greatshells), gemstones act as Stormlight batteries: better cut holds more Stormlight. Surgebinders in a Highstorm can access Stormlight directly (if they could survive it, as Kaladin did). Nothing about the gemstones suggests “focus.” Nalthis The Nahel bond and the attachment of Divine Breath to a Returned is IMO the exact same mechanism: a merger of a mortal’s Spirit Web with a sapient amount of investiture. (There are many differences too, but in this they are alike.) When the Returned is ready to self-sacrifice, he/she exercises his/her power with a cognitive command. Lightsong chooses to self-sacrifice when he does for the specific purpose of giving voice to the God King. KR and Returned BECOME the cognitive aspect of power through their bond. They don’t need an intermediary like metal to draw it down. Breaths attach to mortal Nalthis magicians because of the “sticky” quality of Endowment’s investiture. But the Breaths don’t bond with these magicians, as Divine Breaths bond with the Returned. When mortal Nalthians endow objects with life, they accompany their mental command imagery with a catalytic color conversion. The reliance on color at lower investiture levels (see below) resembles Scadrians’ reliance on metal. (Skaa’s “L-String Theory” explains this similarity.) Are there two different “foci” on Nalthis because the Returned and mortal Nalthians “access” and use Endowment’s power in different ways? That would counter every “focus” theory I’ve seen. Sel I’ve presented my theory of Selish magic in that thread. @Landis963 and I have an interesting debate on “focus” issues. “Will” Moogle and MISTER Sanderson highlight the role of “will.” I assume by “will” they mean that a magician who controls larger amounts of power has a greater “mind” to control that power. Moogle relies on the WoB in the OP to conclude that “one’s will can make Investiture do anything you want.” Based on the assumed definition of “will” above, I agree with Moogle’s statement. Under Moogle’s “nozzle” theory of investiture-shaping, “nozzles” are only necessary when the magician has a weak mind, in the investiture sense. Power is proportionate to the mind that wields it. Minds throttle the flow of raw power to comprehensible levels. A stronger mind, in an investiture sense, can wield the power more directly, without nozzles. That’s the real meaning of MISTER Sanderson’s statement that “Roshar Surgebinding is a special case, as the magical symbiosis there is stronger than it is on other worlds, as much of the magic involves bits of power who have become sapient.” Sazed Quotation: “Consciousness” and “Mandates” Thank you, Moogle, for quoting that epigraph in full!!! For any interested in understanding the nature of Shards, that is THE “MUST-READ” STATEMENT in the Cosmere!!! It comes from the mouth of a Shard (two in fact). Sazed’s statement is the source of two important concepts: “The power needed a consciousness to direct it.” That’s why power chose the Shards at the Shattering. This statement is also the foundation for my many “forced splintering” theories. Power has only a “vague will of its own, tied in to the mandate of its abilities.” This statement is why I use the word “mandate” for what many of you call a Shard’s “intent.” “Physical Realm Magical Effects” Good catch, Moogle! You are correct that magical effects can be targeted at other Realms; though I believe they have effects in all Realms whichever one is targeted. I also think that temporal effects from atium and (maybe) gold are more Cognitive Realm-based than Spiritual Realm-based. Special Relativity shows that time is relative to the observer. That must be a Cognitive Realm thing. Don’t you think the Spiritual Realm – a place of undifferentiated “raw” investiture – would be a bit more “eternal”? But I can see it the other way too... Conclusion Thanks again, all, for encouraging my long slog. Hopefully the headings helped. This gave me the opportunity to put some thoughts in order. Regards all!

My goal in this post is to debunk the very idea of focuses as an analytical tool. I don't think it adds anything to our understanding of how Cosmere magic works. To me a “focus” is simply the Cognitive Realm means of accessing power on a given planet to achieve a desired Physical Realm magical effect. Period. Let’s look at the most relevant WoBs on this subject: “QUESTION My question is, what 'causes' an effect in the end for Allomancy? You've got Investiture being filtered through a metal, but does putting it through the metal turn the Investiture cause a Steelpush, or is it putting the Investiture through your soul that causes it? At what point do you turn Preservation's Investiture into a Steelpush, or is there no one 'point' where it happens? BRANDON SANDERSON Okay, imagine you've got one of those play-dough machines you can stuff with dough, then press a handle on the top to make a little snake-like tube of play-dough squirt out. Those have appendages you can affix to the front to change the shape of the tube that comes out. The metals are the appendage that determines the shape of the power released, but only certain souls can unlock those metals and use them.” (source) “QUESTION If metals shape the Investiture in Allomancy, causing a Steelpush or whatever, how is it that the mists can be used to perform the same feat? What is 'shaping' the inhaled mists into a Steelpush, if there's no metal "nozzle" to do so? BRANDON SANDERSON Consistently through the cosmere, once you have the power in hand and it has permeated you, will becomes your nozzle. This can be seen in Warbreaker, where the power has been distributed and inhabits the people. The nozzle idea is important for Magics that are drawing power externally, as it keeps the power from overwhelming and destroying you. (Which, basically, happened to Vin at the end of the Trilogy--she got consumed by the magic. She became something new, now, so it didn't KILL her. It destroyed what she was, transformed her into something else.) So you see magics like on Sel and Scadrial where a specific nozzle is needed--as the power source is external, at least with Allomancy. Will and intent take a backseat, though still pop up on occasion. On Nalthis (and in a lesser way, Roshar) will and intent are more important, and what you are trying to do shapes the magic more directly. A little direct manifestation in this is found in the subtle differences between Allomancy and Feruchemy. In Allomancy, when you enhance the senses, you just get a blast of power--and all senses are enhanced, whether you want them all or not. In Feruchemy, you can be more precise, and pick a specific sense to store. The power is internal here, and therefore more limited in how much you can draw--but you can also be more precise with its manipulation. Note that Roshar Surgebinding is a special case, as the magical symbiosis there is stronger than it is on other worlds, as much of the magic involves bits of power who have become sapient.” (source) Whether you call them "filters" or "nozzles" or “focuses,” they all do the same thing - give the magician access to power. They are gateways, conduits only. “Shaping” the power is just a metaphoric term to describe how the magician controls the magical effect he/she/it desires. The amount of investiture comprising the magician matters. Greater minds wield greater power. Nozzles are needed for us lesser mortals to avoid Icarus's fate, but greater minds like Shards can wield power through will alone. One doesn't need a special concept called "focuses" to explain any of this.

After posting about the turning of the tide and its effect upon spren, I had another thought. The climactic moment instead will be the Stormfather finally manifesting in the Physical Realm. A representative of each Order will hold one of the united “Shardblades.” Dalinar as Bondsmith will bind the ten Surges into one.and call down the Almighty’s power. That power will re-bind Odium’s investiture (“Voidbinding”) into Greater Roshar. “Voidbringers” will be released into their pre-Odium-infected state. Investiture balance will be restored. The "wall of black and white and red" in the WoK Chapter 9 Epigraph? Humans and Eshonai's non-infected group of listeners will form a wall against Voidbringers of all kinds. They will provide space for the Bondsmith to perform his magic. Such an event incarnates Dalinar’s faith. That seems important for someone whose book is named Oathbringer. Thoughts?

I believe disturbing the remains of dead listeners allows Odium to invade them and turn them into "mindless" Unmade. His investiture can resurrect dead greatshells into thunderclasts (see the Dalinar Purelake vision), and I think he does the same thing with dead listeners. Why their remains have to be disturbed to permit his investment, I don't know. But that appears to be the case.

Honor’s exhortation to Dalinar to “Unite Them!” has many meanings. Unite the Knights, Unite Roshar’s peoples, etc. (Honor is the “binding” Shard.) The natural question is what will happen when that group IS “united”? I think the “them” to be united refers to the Heralds. The re-establishment of the KR will draw the Heralds to them. Why do I think the Heralds? Let’s look again at the WoK Chapter 9 Epigraph: “Ten people, with Shardblades alight, standing before a wall of black and white and red.” Though this refers to “Shardblades,” I think it really means Honorblades capable of consuming investiture. Herald unification enables them to combine all of their Surges and, perhaps together with the KR, re-form the “bonds that drive Roshar” (WoK Ars Arcanum). I envision the ten Heralds standing against the Voidbringers, Honorblades “alight,” sucking in vast amounts of investiture – and thereby stripping the Voidbringers of their Odiumspren. Violent Voidbringers will again become passive Parshendi, and the thunderclasts and Unmade will fall lifeless, their state before Odium invested in them. Unfortunately, the Honorblades consume ALL investiture. (See my theory of "investiture imbalance" as the cause of Desolations.) That means the Heralds’ souls and all spren, including the Radiantspren. Victory against Odium means the end of the spren. See ya, Syl! We barely knew ya…

“[The Enemy] Will Not Remain Bound by This” My 200th post!!! Humor me and pretend it’s a good one! The post epigraph comes from the WoK Prelude. It’s Kalak’s response to Jezrien when hearing of the Heralds’ decision to stay on Roshar following the “Last Desolation” – Aharietam. This post addresses what I think the “enemy” (presumably Odium) did in response. Odium’s actions comport with my “investiture imbalance” theory of Desolations. Background My theory of Desolations has been controversial. I think Desolations arise from an imbalance of the investiture comprising Stormlight. I believe Stormlight is made from the investiture of each of Honor, Cultivation and Odium. The function of the Honorblades is to consume investiture and reconstitute it as Stormlight, ensuring Stormlight’s balance. That’s why the Honorblades are in the mountains east of Shinovar, to capture the Highstorms’ remaining investiture, recycle it, and keep Shinovar spren-free. One function of the Highstorms is to sweep this investiture towards the Honorblades. Evidence for the “investiture imbalance” theory comes from WoB and text: WoB: If the Heralds linger on Roshar after a Desolation, a new Desolation will commence. That’s because IMO the Heralds themselves are largely Honor’s investiture that disrupts the balance. Nale kills Surgebinders because surgebinding breaks down Stormlight into its constituent investitures. Surgebinding uses only Honor’s and/or Cultivation’s investiture, but not Odium’s. This break-down frees Odium’s unused investiture, creating an imbalance that can cause a Desolation. I believe the “Heralds” are actually the souls of the original Heralds encapsulated in each Honorblade and augmented by Honor’s investiture – spren now capable of bonding. This investiture may also give them their “special” abilities. When an investiture imbalance occurs, the Heralds’ souls/spren leave the Honorblades and attach themselves to the “Shamans.” [i think the Stone Shamans are that because Taln – the “Ancient of Stone” (the Diagram), the “Spren of Stone” (so-called by Nale, I believe) – was the Herald who “died.” IMO “Shamans” are the equivalent of squires to the Heralds.] The Heralds “return” to the Honorblades after a Desolation either because they’ve been killed in battle or because post-battle the Honorblades consumed the investiture within their bodies (killing them), along with other investiture. That’s how the Heralds maintain “immortality,” living most of eternity in the Honorblades. The Heralds’ “torture” was their Cognitive Realm reaction to the binding of Stormlight. Odium’s investiture rendered their souls as Cultivation’s regrew them. In the Cognitive Realm, the Heralds still thought themselves human, and cognitively experienced the Stormlight-binding process as “torture.” That’s all background, so you know my theory. I wanted to summarize it here to bring me to the point of this post. Theory After Aharietam, there are nine Heralds on Roshar. Each Herald consists of substantial Honor investiture. Yet investiture balance is necessary to fend off another immediate Desolation – something I believe the Heralds do not know. What did “the enemy” do in response? Odium kept the balance for 4,500 years, deliberately forestalling another Desolation until his scheme (the Everstorm) was ready for implementation. He did this by placing/leaving nine counterparts to the Heralds on Roshar – the mindful Unmade (as opposed to the mindless Unmade mentioned in the Diagram). (Please don’t raise the WoB that there are not equal numbers of Heralds and Unmade – I’m only saying nine of them stayed, however many there might be.) It’s possible that for most of the time since Aharietam, the Unmade did nothing, keeping their presence secret. We do know that the Thrill has been around at least since Dalinar and Sadeas were young men (perhaps 30-35 years ago?) and possibly much longer, so one of the Unmade had to be active by then. Many Forum posters believe the black sphere Gavilar gave Szeth was an Unmade. WoB tells us that there are a lot more spren now than before Honor’s death. Jasnah says they’ve sensed whatever changes are happening/coming – perhaps in reaction to the Unmade’s recent behavior. Those spren provided “cover” – matched the amount of investiture – for the 50,000 stormspren that Odium created to invade the listeners. There is less investiture in stormspren than in Radiantspren, explaining the numbers differential despite equal amounts of aggregate investiture: Stormspren are sentient only, not sapient like Radiantspren, and hold less investiture. They have greater impact per unit of investiture than Radiantspren do because of the aggressive nature of Odium’s investiture. (Look at Eshonai’s change for an example of that aggression.) IMO stormspren are windspren that Odium has hijacked. He only needs to find a “hole” in them to inject them with his investiture. Thus, stormspren are mostly Cultivation’s investiture with only a bit of the aggressive Odium investiture in them. At some point the Honorblades became “aware” of the imbalance caused by Odium’s investiture. That’s when Taln emerged thinking the Desolation was about to begin – when in fact the last one in many ways never ended.

@Landis963: 1. “Intent” (what I call “mandate” based on HoA text) is not “Shardholder attitude.” It is a compulsion on the manner in which a Shard exercises its power. Ruin must destroy. Preservation must stabilize. A Shard can overcome a mandate’s compulsion for at least a time, but not easily. Personal character and feelings – the Shard’s “attitude” – are (almost) irrelevant. A Shard’s “thoughts and personalities” – what I think you mean by “attitude” – are separate from its mandate and its power according to Sazed. Thus I agree that “t doesn’t matter whether Ruin and Preservation hate each other…” Hate has nothing to do with their mandates and will not affect the way these Shards interact. But it DOES matter that “Devotion and Dominion love each other” because Devotion’s mandate is “Love.” That was the original name of the Shard. Devotion will interact with Dominion based on her Love mandate even if she hated him on a personal level because that’s her Shard’s compulsion. (And Dominion, in turn, will interact with Devotion based on his “Control” mandate whether or not he loves her.) You again state that “What matters is how the Investiture of each Shard reacts with the Investiture of the planet, and with the Investiture of any other Shard.” This sentence confuses me. Only two things affect investiture (that we now know of): the Shard’s mandate and the unique influences of the local planet. Planets don’t automatically have investiture – Adonalsium or a Shard must put it there by “investing” in the planet. WoB tells us that Spiritual Realm investiture is composed of the same “raw” or “true” investiture wherever located. Investiture in the Cognitive and Physical Realms, on the other hand, undergoes change from its “true” state to account for a Shard’s mandate and local influences. Is this what you mean by “Shard-planet” interaction? I agree that “Preservation and Ruin did not ‘invent’ Allomancy or Hemalurgy, or Feruchemy for that matter.” As the WoB states, magic systems grow out of the interactions between Adonalsium/Shards and each planet. Are you suggesting Sel’s magic system came about unintentionally? Perhaps (although that would be disappointing metaphorically). But given Devotion and Dominion’s respective mandates of Love and Control, the system that did arise seems as reasonable an accommodation as any between the Shards and their planet. 2. Something that “makes no sense” to you perhaps indicts my powers of exposition. Regardless, your lack of comprehension hardly forms the basis for an argument. I especially enjoyed your admission of a “very shaky understanding” of “Realmatics,” which you nonetheless relied on for your “disbelief” in my conclusion. I’ll address your “balance system” argument below. 3. You state the cited WoB “pretty clearly corroborates [your] rebuttal.” I see nothing clear in almost anything MISTER Sanderson tells us. Let’s look at this particular exchange in full for enlightenment: “Question Feruchemy is the ‘balance’ between Ruin and Preservation. Would any combination of Shards create a ‘balance’ magic, so to speak, or are only certain Shards compatible? Brandon Sanderson Feruchemy ended up being a balance system, because of how polar Ruin and Preservation were. Any world with at least two Shards will result in a similar phenomenon. Question Like Roshar? Brandon Sanderson Like Roshar. There is something like that going on there.” This WoB establishes that a “balance” system is unique to Scadrial because of the polarity between the mandates of the two Shards. Other planets with multiple Shards would not have a “balance” system, but would have “a similar phenomenon.” MISTER Sanderson concludes by saying “something like that” has happened on Roshar. To me, “something like” a “balance” system that is admittedly unique to another planet is not authority for “two Shards creating three magic systems,” which was your original point. The WoB is ambiguous at best. I interpret the Roshar reference to mean the “mandate-meshing” that seems to occur there. We believe, for example, that Honor and Cultivation combined their investiture to create the Knights Radiant. Each Order has a different proportion of Honor’s and Cultivation’s investiture attached to their Knights’ SpiritWebs. MISTER Sanderson has been coy about how many “magic systems” are on Roshar because that term is so vague. So yes, Shards interact, and in one case that interaction results in a balance system. We would expect different interactions with different Shards, resulting in different systems. That’s the real point the WoB makes. I stated in the OP that Arelon may be the one place on Sel where Devotion’s magic operates independently. There, the Aons are the gateway to the Dor and appear to bear no imprint of Dominion. If you looking for three magic systems, I’ll propose one with Devotion’s Cognitive gateway, one with Dominion’s (Dakhor), and one combination that covers everything else (ChayShan, Forgery, etc.) 4. Metal does not “unlock Preservation’s and Ruin’s power.” Metal is a conduit for Preservation’s power (only) to reach an Allomancer. If you want to call that a “focus,” go ahead, but that’s just verbal shorthand without any meaning. Metals provide the path the power takes until the metals are consumed and the path exhausts itself. Gemstones are NOT a “focus” for Stormlight under any definition. As I said in my previous post, a Surgebinder can use Stormlight directly without a gemstone. The gemstones are basically batteries, however well cut. 5. I do not understand your point here. You base your entire argument on the “very good odds” that “the splintering did in fact change the nature of Sel's magical power.” Any evidence? Merely describing current human interactions with the Dor doesn’t address whether those interactions were the same or different pre-splintering. (And just because the “Dor’s” around post-splintering doesn’t mean Jim Morrison is still alive…) All the absences you cite – “no strange voice,” no “prophetic dreams” or “any source of guidance from a cognitive shadow” – are Cognitive Realm phenomena. They are precisely the things that should be absent after splintering these Shards. IMO, forced splintering involves killing a Shard’s Mind, so we would expect nothing cognitive to occur in a brain-dead entity: “sufficientlyadvanced It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why? Brandon Sanderson It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel. Phantine Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though. Brandon Sanderson Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless...” But the Shards’ Body – its Physical Realm power – does survive forced splintering. You’d first have to refute the fact that Honor’s power appears untouched by his splintering before you can conclude that Devotion and Dominion’s power is changed by splintering. You cite the Dor’s “very strict requirements that are remarkably different than those systems presided over by living Shards.” Every Shard’s Cognitive means of accessing power differs from every other Shard’s, as do the Physical Realm results of the power exercise. That’s the consequence of the Shard-planet interactions you earlier referenced. The Dor’s “very strict requirements” themselves support my conclusion that Dominion established Sel’s Cognitive means of accessing the Dor. Who else but a “Control freak” would create such strict requirements? I’m not even convinced the Dor is from both Devotion and Dominion. I can easily argue for it being just Devotion’s investiture. Here’s the WoB that raises that question: “Windrunner Is the Dor made up of both Devotion and Dominion's power? Brandon Sanderson The Dor's nature, and why it acts as it does, is in part related to this question.” What does “in part related to this question” even mean? Classic Sanderson obfuscation… Finally, Landis, I leave you with a question: Why are the Cognitive means of accessing the Dor everywhere different on Sel, but everywhere reliant on the Dor for execution? AonDor, Dakhor, Forgery all use the Dor despite the different forms-based means of accessing it. If splintering so changed the Dor, why are Selish form-based commands all different, but the power that flows from those commands always the same? Answer: because splintering had no effect on the Dor.

@Landis663, we have a different view of both Realmatic theory and Cosmere-ology. Following are my responses to your objections: 1. “[W]hen 2 Shards are in one area, the Investiture of that area would react in a similar [way] to how it acted when 2 different Shards were in a different area.” I disagree. Each Shardworld is unique, and the magic of each Shardworld is unique. This is canon, not controversy. What you suggest would mean that Devotion and Dominion on Sel (as Shards, not “personalities”) should have magically acted toward one another “similarly” to how Ruin and Preservation acted toward one another on Scadrial. You would disregard their different mandates (intents) and the different cultural influences of each planet on their respective Cognitive and Spiritual Realms. Ruin and Preservation do provide some “precedent,” as you say, since we now know that Shards on the same planet can interact with one another. That is not a necessary conclusion. But there’s no reason to think that the manner of that interaction should be identical or even “similar” among Shards. People on earth have all sorts of social and physical interactions with one another; why shouldn’t Shards? And just to clarify something I’m sure was simply a misstatement on your part, “Shards [DON’T] warp Investiture around themselves.” Shards ARE investiture. Shards do invest matter and energy and may thereby warp them. I don’t think there’s a General Relativity theory about investiture itself, though. 2. “Old married couples…entwining.” The “Shard’s entwining” part was a metaphoric effort to explain why the Shards would choose to combine their power: Love cedes itself to Control. The Realmatic explanation of how this works is the guts of the argument. We know from HoA that restrictions on a Shard’s cognitive investiture – its Mind – likewise limits its ability to exercise Physical Realm power (what Sazed calls a Shard’s “Body”). If I am correct, and the “forms programming” Cognitive means of accessing the Dor (the Physical Realm power of the two Shards) comes exclusively from Dominion, then one Shard IS controlling the joint power of both: Love cedes itself to Control. I don’t think someone picking up these two Shards, as Sazed did with Ruin and Preservation, would need to “balance” their powers as you suggest. You’re correct that Harmony is a “special case” because of the “diametric opposition” of his Shards’ mandates. Devotion and Dominion, though, are not opposites and don’t need “balance.” They arguably never needed to work together at all and, I speculate, only did so because of their pre-Shard relationship. The Shards did need to accommodate themselves on Sel, as they jointly invested in the planet. I believe what I suggest above is the means of their accommodation: Love cedes itself to Control, through the Dor’s use of Dominion’s Cognitive Realm gateway into the Physical Realm. That is not a “third” magic system; it is simply the Shards working together as we might expect lovers to do. Whether joint splintering would be less taxing than if Odium splintered each Shard separately is admittedly speculative. But the speculation fits with my argument and analysis. 3. “B[efore] O[dium] would have had three magic systems, one for Devotion, one for Dominion, and one representing the push and pull between the two (and there would be some push and pull between the two).” I disagree. Unless there’s a WoB that I’ve missed (very possible), I don’t believe this idea of two Shards creating three magic systems is canon. Nor do I agree that “there would be some push and pull between the two.” Addressing the latter first, “push and pull” systems are specifically associated with Scadrial. They fit the logic of opposing Shards, especially ones that can only stabilize or destroy like Preservation and Ruin. Feruchemy is the perfect expression of combining such powers. It isn’t coincidental that Sazed was a feruchemist, who understood the necessity of balancing these powers. We don’t see such combinations elsewhere. Admittedly, we’re only aware of Roshar and Sel having more than one Shard. No “balancing” system appears on either planet, as far as we know. Why do you assume such third systems must exist? 4. “Sel may have had a focus of its own.” I don’t subscribe to the “focus” theory. IMO each magic system essentially works the same way: first, a magician commands the magic (a Cognitive activity commencing in the Cognitive Realm); second, the command causes Spiritual Realm connections between objects to adjust themselves; and third, the result of those adjustments is the release of Physical Realm power. The important point here is that every magic begins with a command of some sort (except perhaps unconscious healing), and that command issues from the Cognitive Realm. When an Allomancer consciously chooses to burn metal, he is issuing a Cognitive command to the Spiritual Realm for the type of power he calls for. That power flows through the metal bits and hooks up with the Allomancer to make magic. The metal is not so much a “focus” as a conduit between the Allomancer and Preservation’s power. Roshar’s gemstones are not focuses (foci?) either. They are reservoirs of Stormlight – Physical Realm gaseous investiture (power) – that Surgebinders can infuse for their use. Or you can add a spren to the gemstone and make a fabrial. But gemstones are unnecessary for a Surgebinder to use Stormlight – he or she can get it directly from a Highstorm. 5. “There are two distinct parts of the history of Investiture on Sel: ‘Before Odium’ and ‘Aftermath.’ This is certainly true. But it doesn’t follow that the splintering destroyed every aspect of Sel’s pre-splintering magic. I posit that it changed the means of Cognitively accessing that magic, replacing a globally available gateway to magic with a series of territorial ones. Each of these Cognitive means of access, though, continues to come from Dominion. There’s no reason to think splintering would change the Shards’ power – its Physical Realm investiture. (Their Minds, yes, but not their power.) Splintering didn’t change Honor’s power, the only other splintered Shard we know of. Honor’s investiture continues to bind, his mandate is unchanged. Why would you think the Sel splintering would change Sel’s magical power? IMO the Dor was Dominion and Devotion’s shared power before the splintering and it remains so.

@Yata and @Landis963, thank you for your comments. I’ll address my response to you together. Ruin and Preservation’s relationship and magic provides no precedent for Devotion and Dominion’s or the magic those Shards create. Ruin and Preservation are different from Honor, Cultivation and Odium too. Magic, as you know, is unique to each Shardworld and results from the interaction of the Shardworld and its culture with a Shard’s mandate (intent). Where two or more Shards inhabit the same Shardworld, only the mandates (intents) differ, since all other factors are the same. We wouldn’t expect Ruin and Preservation’s relationship to serve as the template for any other Shard relationship on any other Shardworld. I think Aona and Skai were romantically involved. Their “thoughts and personalities” became attached to the Shards Devotion and Dominion. It’s reasonable to assume their romance continued after their ascension. Because of their relationship – and unlike the opposing Scadrial Shards – their minds and power entwined and aligned. In a long-term relationship, you finish each other’s sentences; old marrieds even begin to look alike. Thus, IMO Devotion and Dominion’s mind and power were complementary, not supplementary. Their powers coincided, acted as one, with the power of one. Mechanically (and Realmatically), my OP thesis posits that Dominion’s investiture acted as the Cognitive Realm control valve on the flow of Physical Realm magical power. Every Sel region we’ve seen uses “forms programming” emblematic of Dominion’s “control” mandate. (As the OP states, Arelon may be the one exception, a place of pure and unlimited love and giving.) Dominion’s Cognitive bottleneck throttled the amount of Physical Realm power the combined Shards could exercise. @Yata, I think this magic fits Realmatic theory perfectly and just described how and why it does. I welcome a fuller understanding of your contrary view. I feel I also explained, to both you and @Landis963, why Devotion and Dominion at any time could only direct the power of a single Shard, unlike Harmony, who has never had any Cognitive restrictions on his ability to exercise power. Why do I think the Dor may have been Sel’s original meshed Physical Realm investiture? For the same reason that Honor’s Physical Realm investiture IMO is the same as it was before his splintering: the “conservation of investiture” theorem and its corollary the “conservation of mandate (intent)” hypothesis. Foreced splintering involves the destruction of a Shard’s mind, its Cognitive investiture (I believe). That’s why the power has no mind to direct it and becomes a splinter – the Shard’s mind has been destroyed. Power seeks a new mind for direction or become sentient on its own. The power itself – a Shard’s Physical Realm manifestation – is untouched by splintering (IMO). Syl – a splinter herself – can direct Honor’s power just like honorspren could in Nohadon’s time, when Honor was still alive. Based on Honor’s example, I speculate that the Dor existed before Devotion and Dominion’s Splintering.

Following is analysis and interpretation of how Selish magic came to be and how it currently works. Aona and Skai were lovers pre-Shattering. They continued their relationship post-Shattering, as Shards (presumably on a more Platonic basis, both literally and figuratively). Pre-splintering, Dominion’s investiture provided access to the magic, wherever on Sel one was. This is the “forms programming” aspect of Selish magic that MISTER Sanderson has described. Dominion thus gave Selians (?) the cognitive commands necessary to use his and Devotion’s power – just like the control freak you’d expect someone named “Dominion” to be. I speculate that the power, even then, was similar to the Dor – a combination of Dominion’s and Devotion’s investiture reflecting their relationship, their magic intertwined and combined. It might even have been the Dor itself, since (using the Roshar precedent) splintering doesn’t appear to affect a Shard’s power as much as its mind, the cognitive means of directing the power. I further speculate that the solid state of Dominion’s “body,” its latent Physical Realm power, existed on that moon that Shai believes disintegrated and fell to Sel to become, among other things, soulstone. (Shai…Skai…Skaa...coincidence?) I believe that Devotion’s solid body was located in or near the chasm that the earthquake created. I base this conclusion on various characters exclaiming, “Domi below.” Those statements suggest that Devotion’s worshippers (ignore the name for a moment) thought she resided in the planet. Odium now splinters the two of them. Though this is “taxing” on him, splintering these two Shards is probably easier than any other pair, because they had created a single magic system from their investiture – it was like splintering a single Shard. Splintering caused Dominion’s body to collapse into meteors falling over Sel. Everywhere his investiture fell, a NEW FORM for accessing the magic developed. Forgery, Bloodsealing, Dakhor, ChayShan all provide their user access to the Dor. AonDor may be the same, with the Aons providing the cognitive link to the Dor also coming from Dominion, but I’m uncertain. I think Arelon may have always been the place where Devotion was strongest, because of the proximity of her Physical Realm investiture at the chasm. Thus, contrary to everywhere else on Sel, practitioners of Devotion’s magic may have accessed the Dor using Devotion’s own commands. The Dor itself may be an example of mandate-meshing, two magics merging into a third magic, rather than a mere mixture of each. Given the emotional closeness of Dominion and Devotion, I would expect their minds/cognitive investiture to mingle in the Cognitive Realm, changing each of them into something else. These changes may explain why Areloners (?) worship “Domi” and why “Omi” is the Aon for love. An open question is why Dakhor forms of Dor magic didn’t appear until about 300 years before the events of Elantris. I speculate that this Dominion moon meteor may have been buried deep into the ground when it struck and has only recently been uncovered. Alternatively,Dominion's Shardpool may have been discovered near the monastery at that time. MISTER Sanderson has referenced how dangerous Sel’s Cognitive Realm is. We’ve assumed that’s because, post-splintering with the minds of Devotion and Dominion now dead, the Shards’ cognitive investiture did not find other minds through which to exercise power. Thus, bits of their cognitive investiture achieved sentience on their own with “bizarre effects.” I don’t know that there’s a whole lot new here. I just thought I would organize my thoughts on the subject and see what others have to say. Regards all!

@Pathfinder, Physical Realm power is proportionate to the Cognitive Realm mind that wields it. “Sentient” spren can exercise a “sentient” amount of power – affecting a merchant’s wares or tripping Kaladin, etc. Here’s what I said about this on another thread: “In my…post on how spren become sapient, I posit that every Radiantspren other than the Stormfather began its Physical Realm existence as merely a sentient ‘natural phenomenon’ spren from Cultivation: windspren, creationspren, flamespren, etc. That amount of investiture that confers sapience remains in the Cognitive Realm, ‘carried’ by the ‘escort’ sentient spren. When the sentient spren finds a suitable host, the cognitive investiture it carries bonds with the KR’s own mind, enabling the KR to use the spren’s cognitive investiture to direct magical effects. Thus, Syl remains a mischievous windspren in the Physical Realm, though now she is bonded with Kaladin and has the greater mental capacity of sapience to understand and execute Kaladin’s commands.” Does that help or make things hopelessly Confusing? (I’m good at that.) The cited post may or may not clarify things for you.

The main reason I no longer grace MISTER Sanderson with his first name is this one. If you didn’t see the last play of that game, watch it on YouTube to understand. (I also like how it rhymes with Agent Smith’s pronunciation of Neo’s name in The Matrix.) Regarding the OP, you both make a good point. But the two situations are not necessarily the same. Ruin causes decay but couldn’t destroy himself. Odium hates, so therefore can’t hate himself? Even if he can’t, there’s nothing in his mandate (intent) that prohibits him from killing himself. If self-hate doesn’t compel him to, I would think loneliness in a hate-filled self-destructive Cosmere might suffice. It may even happen without his desire. Odium can’t create or IMO even bond things together. His mandate (intent) corrodes and divides. Natural entropic forces cause elements of the Cosmere to break down, and the splinters of the other Shards probably lack the power to put Humpty back together again. Will Odium be content to preside over a disintegrating Cosmere for eternity? I doubt the Cosmere books will progress so far as to leave Odium the last Shard standing. I’m just following Odium’s plan to its conclusion and wondering why he even bothers. A Shard’s compulsion, I guess.

Following is some speculation about the underlying theme of the Cosmere series. I believe MISTER Sanderson tells the story of how magic moves from dictatorship to democracy. As the sole god and source of all the Cosmere’s investiture, Adonalsium “ruled” everywhere by himself, a dictatorship. Adonalsium’s Shattering broke divinity into Sixteen equally powerful parts, each reflecting a single aspect of divinity. Collectively, the Sixteen “ruled” after Adonalsium’s Shattering, an oligarchy of power. Now Odium wants to splinter and diffuse each of the others. What happens if he succeeds? MISTER Sanderson says (in Item 7), “Odium wants to be the only Shard. Odium could pick up other Shards if he wants to, but, he doesn't want to. His Shard is a good match for his personality and he doesn't want to be influenced by another Shard.” Ultimate hatred, however, hates everything, including all existence and, I posit, itself. Self-loathing may be at the core of hating others. If Odium succeeds, he will find himself in a hateful Cosmere, divisive and in constant war with itself. He will be without peers or other worthies to hate and will have no future other than an eternity of loneliness and purposelessness. A Cosmere whose primary emotional focus is hatred will likely destroy itself. And Odium, by himself, cannot build a new Cosmere. Hatred is not a creative force. In this respect, he’s like Ruin, he cannot create by himself. Faced with this, I think Odium will eventually destroy himself, completing Adonalsium’s disintegration. His hatred will turn inward. By splintering each Shard ending with himself, Odium will cause Adonalsium’s original investiture to diffuse throughout the Cosmere rather than be concentrated in the hands of the Sixteen. Odium is thus the Cosmere’s entropic hero, its true Revolutionary, bringing magical democracy to the Cosmere after it has been a dictatorship and an oligarchy.

@YATA, doing my best to think up new stuff. I’ll try harder…and I’ll get back to you below. @MOOGLE: Mind and Personality I think we agree on the relationship between mind and personality. You cite a great quote from Sazed I’d missed. As I understand the various WoBs on this subject, a mandate does “pervert” the Shard’s “personality” over time, but only in the sense that the Shard becomes increasingly unable to act contrary to its mandate. That’s what Sazed is saying, and it is consistent with the WoB. But that doesn’t mean the Shards will behave with honor or hatred in their personal decisions. IMO Honor would willingly create an Oathpact that results in Herald torture to achieve his purposes whether or not it is “honorable” to do so. That, to me, doesn’t involve the exercise of power as much as a moral choice not subject to mandate compulsion. The line, of course, is drawn on the head of a pin… “Desires and Motivations” Regarding Kurk’s cited article and his and your proposition that the Spiritual Realm is about “desires and motivations”: you know I have a much different view of Realmatic theory than you two (and most others). Kurk is always a fascinating, well-researched, and well-considered read, but I feel everyone puts too much emphasis on Spiritual Realm investiture. Because Spiritual Realm investiture is compositionally everywhere the same (WoB), the only thing about it that can change is the FORM it takes. Spiritual Realm investiture IOW is like DNA; each gene is made of the same substance, but each gene is different from the others in how it expresses itself. Is this investiture gob the soul of a human or the essence of a chair? These things are somehow coded to be different even though they are made of compositionally identical substances. That differs from the investiture in both the Cognitive and Physical Realms. I tend to see the Spiritual Realm as passive – “true investiture” yes, but not self-actuating the way Kurk and you see it. It’s more like a computer network with lots of nodes, awaiting Cognitive inputs. (Mixing my metaphors again…) To me, the “motivation” for Spiritual Realm actions are the Cognitive commands the minds of Shards and magicians deliver to the Spiritual Realm for execution. The only argument to the contrary arises in the context of unconscious healing. Loosely-worded WoB suggests that a “Spiritual impulse” emanating from the Spiritual Realm to the Cognitive causes the body’s self-healing in accordance with its self-perception. I believe in a “Cognitive impulse” flowing to the Spiritual Realm that’s already been coded with the body’s self-perception and merely seeks execution from the Spiritual investiture. We continue to differ on that one. Cultivation’s Mandate My point about Cultivation’s “time” mandate is that all Cultivation-based Surges require visualization of a future result achieved by time compression. Jasnah’s Transportation Surge is an example. Compare Raoden’s use of the transportation Aon (which in my mind is the identical power of creation, filtered through Sel’s peculiarities). Raoden needed to learn the exact coordinates of his destination before he could proceed. Jasnah did not: visualization of a future result and its instantaneous execution. “Spren Are Living Surges” This is another loosely-worded WoB where even MISTER Sanderson acknowledges he didn’t answer the question. I understand him to say that spren are capable of using the Surges – which makes perfect sense because they consist entirely of investiture. Syl should be able to use the Surges her investiture empowers. The “higher” spren the WoB refers to are the Radiantspren (and other spren consisting of the same or higher quantum of investiture). Windspren can use Adhesion, for example, but only in small and simple ways, since they are merely sentient. Sapient Syl, once bonded with Kaladin, can do much more than a sentient windspren. Mind and the power it exercises always exist in proportion. Roshar Spren and Scadrial Metals Work Differently They work differently because they are different substances: metals are “tuning” devices that channel Preservation’s investiture for use by an allomancer. Spren are investiture themselves. Spren allow KR to use the Surges precisely because the spren can use the Surges – the Nahel bond connects the mind of the KR to the mind of his or her spren. The KR commands, and the spren – Cognitive investiture – directs the execution of the command. Metals merely are conduits. An allomancer commands by consciously burning metals, drawing upon Preservation’s power; the metals are not “a little piece of God” themselves. Are Surges “Shard Agnostic”? Yes…and no. I absolutely agree that the powers of creation are everywhere identical in their basic form. But the interaction of mandates and Shardworlds changes the Cognitive and Physical investiture of each Shardworld. The result is that the powers are exercised differently Shardworld to Shardworld – with different Cognitive inputs and with different but related Physical outputs. Where two or more Shards occupy the same Shardworld, the only differences in how power is exercised will be found in the Shards’ mandates; other aspects of the Shardworld are identical for each Shard. So…an Odium spren CAN presumably access the Adhesion and Gravity Surges. But the Cognitive means of accessing those powers would be different and the exercised power itself would come out differently. And for reasons set out below, I don’t think that power exercise would be considered “Surgebinding.” Examples: Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother, creates Midnight Essences. I believe this is a form of Lightweaving that takes material substance. Note also that Odium tends to use dead organisms – listeners whose remains have been moved IMO (the “mindless Unmade”) and greatshells (thunderclasts) – in his magic. Compare the Dakhor monks similar use of life to fuel their magic and Endowment’s resurrection of the Returned to implement whatever she wants to accomplish through them. There is a substantial difference between how Honor and Cultivation perform magic and how Odium does. The KR exercise their powers through the Nahel bond with their spren. Honor binds. Odium IMO does not. The nature of Hatred is to be alone; it is a corrosive, divisive force. That’s why I believe Odium does not form bonds. His spren invade their hosts (the listeners, etc.), but do not bond with them. The spren “carry” Odium’s investiture into the host, but unlike Radiantspren, they do not BECOME PART of their host; they do not latch onto the host’s Spirit Web. That’s WHY an Odium spren cannot grant Surgebinding to its host, even though Odium’s investiture is capable of the same powers of creation; without a Nahel bond, these powers must be exercised through a different mechanism. I do agree that a captured Syl, or any Radiantspren, can cause a fabrial to work properly. I wrote a post on that subject several months ago. “Godspren” Point taken. Agreed. Stormfather “Absorbing” Honor’s Investiture Great WoB! * * * * * BACK TO @YATA: Stormfather as “Rider of Storms” and Bondsmith Spren My timeline is, first Adonalsium “designed/imprinted” Roshar, then Honor and Cultivation arrived, and last, Odium. Humans IMO came after Odium and at his coercion. WoB: the Highstorms were once strictly meteorological events. Speculation: they lacked investiture at the time. Further speculation: they became invested when Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar. Once humans are on Roshar, they begin to personify the Stormfather as “the Almighty,” Honor’s alter ego. The personification process causes the Stormfather to become a spren of Honor invested with his investiture. (See my “Spiritual Realm IS Location-Based” and “Forced Splintering – Take 3” posts for my speculation on how Cognitive investiture changes with human thought.) As long as listeners still personify the Stormfather as the Rider of Storms, he remains that as well. Because the Stormfather now exists as Honor’s spren (regardless of what else he may be) and contains his investiture, he is capable of bonding with a Bondsmith. After Honor’s murder, the Stormfather IMO absorbs most of Honor’s remaining investiture. WoB: there are more spren now than at that time. I believe the reason for that is the Stormfather’s shedding some of the investiture he “absorbed” from Honor. Since MISTER Sanderson says the Stormfather really is HONOR’s Cognitive Shadow (and not Tanavast’s, despite my earlier adoption of your point of view), I go back to my even earlier belief that the Stormfather’s absorption of Honor included the absorption of Honor’s Mind – his Cognitive Shadow – even though Honor’s body no longer existed.

iBambam – Spren do NOT exist in the Cognitive Realm. Only ideas reside there. Ideas do not become spren (“living ideas” according to Jasnah) UNTIL they migrate to the Physical Realm. (Btw, is your name a Flintstones' reference?) I’m inclined to agree with Pathfinder. The spren are probably bonded to a Worldhopper who is either a native Rosharan or who visited Roshar and became bonded.

Moogle, Sazed himself highlights the difference between the mind that directs the power and the personality of the person who becomes the Shard. “These two minds [Ruin and Preservation] were, of course, independent of the raw force of their powers. Actually, I am uncertain of how thoughts and personalities came to be attached to the powers in the first place – but I believe they were not there originally.” HoA, Epigraph to Chapter 55 (emphasis added). You may have read my post on what I think happened at the Shattering. (No, not the post where I “speculate” Adonalsium was a dead dragon dissected by the people who became Shards; they inadvertently dropped Adonalisum’s gemheart and shattered it.) The serious Shattering post analyzes other passages to further confirm this important distinction between “mind” and personality. That's why my point about the word “intent” isn't completely irrelevant or semantic. I truly don't care what word is used, but people keep ascribing personality traits to the Shards. Honor should BEHAVE "honorably" and Odium should BEHAVE "hatefully." NO, NO, NO!!! The concept applies to POWER EXERCISE ONLY. If we'd all remember that, then we'd all be better off regardless of our personal word choice. I didn't realize the Vorins fabricated the KR chart. But knowing that now doesn't change my view. I'm guessing the Vorins did their typical thing and recharacterized an earlier chart to their liking. What possible reason would there be for Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers to represent animals and plants? Specific Surges have meaning only in the context of a Shard’s mandate. I’ve advocated that every Shard can exercise the same powers of creation, altered only by the interaction of their mandate with the influences of the local Shardworld. Honor's "bonding" mandate is synonymous with Bondsmiths. Cultivation's "time" mandate is best exemplified by Truthwatchers. Why Truthwatchers? Because one who cultivates anything visualizes what they want the cultivated object to look like in the future. They see into the future and turn the present into that future. Shallan “transforms” her guards from what they are into what they could be. Lift's seeds grow instantly. Healing involves the immediate regrowth of body tissue. Jasnah transports herself instantly. The salient feature of each of these Surges is the compression of time to achieve a visualized future effect – the Truthwatcher power thus underlies all of the Cultivation-based Surges. Compare the more “Honor-y” upper orders of the chart, which affect bonds more than time. Kaladin is obvious. Skybreakers implement the bonds of the law. Stonewards and Releasers assemble and disassemble molecular bonds. Why do we care? I agree that the Cognitive Shadow issue is misleading. On reflection, it's only relevance may be the visions the Stormfather shows Gavilar and Dalinar. Yata has persuaded me that only humans (or other sentient mortals) can have ghosts. BUT the investiture that comprises the Stormfather remains significant. In my overarching theory of SLA, he helps maintain the investiture balance necessary to prevent Desolations. His Highstorms sweep investiture to the mountains east of Shinovar, where IMO the Honorblades consume it, reconstitute it as Stormlight, and prevent the investiture’s passage into Shinovar. All of that is a “bond-related” function. And though the Stormfather seems to have no discretion in the matter, he accepts the KR oaths. Is he still the Rider of Storms? Maybe, at some vestigial level – the original non-magical Highstorms. He did nothing to block the stormspren from invading Eshonai, though, and admitted his impotence to help her. Finally, he is DALINAR’S spren – the Bondsmith’s spren. Why give Dalinar a “godspren” who isn’t comprised of the god’s investiture? I do think the presence of the Stormfather at Honor’s death will prove significant for a variety of reasons, some of which I've stated in earlier posts. In addition, I’ve held a suspicion that the Stormfather might even in some way have been complicit in that death. We’ll see… One more thing about mandate-meshing: In my long-languishing post on how spren become sapient, I posit that every Radiantspren other than the Stormfather began its Physical Realm existence as merely a sentient “natural phenomenon” spren from Cultivation: windspren, creationspren, flamespren, etc. That amount of investiture that confers sapience remains in the Cognitive Realm, “carried” by the “escort” sentient spren. When the sentient spren finds a suitable host, the cognitive investiture it carries bonds with the KR’s own mind, enabling the KR to use the spren’s cognitive investiture to direct magical effects. Thus, Syl remains a mischievous windspren in the Physical Realm, though now she is bonded with Kaladin and has the greater mental capacity of sapience to understand and execute Kaladin’s commands. IOW, every Radiantspren other than the Stormfather has something of Cultivation in them, in varying degrees. But EVERY Radiantspren has something of Honor in them, because that is necessary to form the bond between the KR and their spren. In the Truthwatcher’s case, that bond may be reduced simply to what’s necessary to attach Glys to Renarin, and Glys is otherwise pure Cultivation investiture. Anyone out there still following this thread?

Ruin wasn't splintered, though. You raise an interesting question that I haven't seen addressed - WHEN was Honor splintered? Could the splintering have happened AFTER Honor's death? IOW, Honor dies, the Stormfather takes up his investiture, and THEN dropped his splintered "children"?

I recall MISTER Sanderson saying a Shard and a Shardholder are the same thing. This is consistent with Sazed's observation that a Shard inhabits it's power like a person inhabits flesh and blood. We further know that it takes a long time for a Shard to die. Bullet-riddled Miles in AoL stayed alive for awhile, relying on his compounding abilities. How much longer to die should it take a Shard? The Stormfather witnessed Honor's murder. I speculate that Honor's investiture flowed directly into the Stormfather until Honor died, presumably including Honor's cognitive investiture. Power always seeks a mind to direct it. This was the "outlet" for that power on Roshar that wasn't available on Sel following Devotion and Dominion's splintering. So...Honor's mind was relatively intact as the Stormfather absorbed Honor's investiture. While I think your point may be generally true - that only humans can be "ghosts" leaving their minds behind after their deaths - I think the peculiar dynamic of Honor's death is an exception to that rule. Nothing like tapping out nonsense on my phone while sitting in an airport at 4 am!

Yata, as a general observation, you may be correct - there's no necessary correlation between the identity of the person who becomes the cognitive shadow and the source of the investiture comprising the shadow. As you say, Kelsier's shadow was made from Preservation's investiture. (I don't know if that is canon, but it makes sense to me.) But here we're talking about HONOR'S shadow. What other investiture could it be than Honor's own? You've identified the Stormfather as TANAVAST'S shadow. The Coppermind describes him as Honor's. Does this change your analysis?

Moogle, to continue our discussion... 1. Adonalsium, Honor and the Stormfather: Let's assume you're correct, and the Stormfather still contains lots of Adonalsium investiture. If we agree that Adonalsium was balanced, but Honor's investiture was specifically mandated, wouldn't that be like a solution of water and ink? The ink may be diluted, but the solution still bears its color. IOW, Honor's mandate determines how the Stormfather now behaves, even if you are correct. Pure Honor, diluted (maybe) only by a neutral solvent. We don't know a lot about cognitive shadows, except that they're like ghosts - people who have died and moved on from the Physical Realm, but for whatever reason remain stuck in the Cosmere's Cognitive Realm. But it's a reasonable assumption that the person whose shadow it is has more to do with the shadow then any other person. The Stormfather is HONOR'S (Tanavast's) shadow, not Adonalsium's. 2. "Mandate" or "Intent"? More fundamentally, your comment about the Stormfather's BEHAVIOR not reflecting "pure Honor" raises the "intent vs. mandate" issue in full color. (Personally, I attribute the Stormfather's behavior to his being "broken.") Aside from HoA textual reasons for my preference for the word "mandate" (power without a directing mind still acts in accordance with "a vague will of its own, tied to the mandate of its abilities"), I have semantic and conceptual reasons as well. "Intent" as a word refers to a state of mind. I think that confuses readers into believing that Honor must PERSONALLY act "honorably" towards others (for example, the Heralds). But mandates IMO limit the way POWER can be exercised. Shards are COMPELLED - "mandated" - to use their power in ways their mandate permits, regardless of their subjective intent (Ati). They can overcome the compulsion if they are strong enough (Sazed), but their personal desires are near-irrelevant if in conflict with their mandate. As you know, I don't generally care which word people use. I'm highlighting the distinction here, though, because of your observations about the Stormfather's behavior. In my view, even Honor himself can act dishonorably if he so "intends." But he cannot exercise his POWER "dishonorably," that is, in ways inconsistent with his mandate. 3. Wyndle and the KR Chart. Is Wyndle pure Cultivation? Even you acknowledge that's unlikely. I'm biased by the configuration of the KR chart (the Round Table - http://omnia-fortunae-commito.tumblr.com/post/79001465674/updated-annotated-surgebinding-chart-spoilers.)The Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers have inside seats. No one else does. Why? Their placement suggests to me that there's something different - and important - about these two Orders. Honor's mandate is "Binding" because that's what Honor DOES. (It's similar to my former characterization of his mandate as Relationships.) BONDsmiths? Who only bond with the Stormfather? Seems like a fit for the "purest" form of Honor. Truthwatchers see the future, combining the Illumination Surge with Progression. I now think Cultivation's mandate is Time. (I used to think it was Survival, but Titan Arum pointed out that a Shard like Autonomy was a better candidate for a "survivalist" approach to magic.) Cultivation of anything involves Time. An Order that sees the future - which Honor says is something Cultivation does better than Honor or (I believe) Odium - and sits inside the Round Table, is IMO most likely to be the "purest" form of Cultivation. 4. Emotion vs Nature Spren. I do agree with Jasnah's dichotomy. But I see this as an issue of spren taxonomy rather than evidence of mandate subdivision. BUT I will accept your compromise that BOTH mandate-meshing and mandate subdivision occur here. We've beaten this to death, and I for one am ready to move on to NIGHTBLOOD. 5. Nightblood. You give an excellent and persuasive summary of the "Nightblood Problem." I'll add to the conundrum that Endowment's investiture is "sticky," yet Nightblood leaks black smoke whenever he consumes investiture. I thought Oudeis's thread on "Nightblodium" contained some insightful analysis of some of these issues. (My only contribution was to end my post there saying I was done "bloviating about Nightblodium.") Unfortunately, I have little to add to help your theorizing, except to answer your concluding question: "Honorblades." If Honor's investiture were used instead of Endowment's, you would have what we do have (IMO): Honorblades that contain the souls of the Heralds ready to come forth and take over the bodies of the Stone Shamans. (I'm sure you've read my posts about the Heralds and the Honorblades.) That's all, Folks! Don't stay up as late tonight, Moogle, as you did last night!

1. Moogle, first Bondsmiths. I agree that Adonalsium was the original source of the Rider of Storms. Over time, as humans migrated to Roshar, the Rider evolved from his first form into his current incarnation as the Stormfather. But the listeners don't view the Rider as their "friend" anymore. He betrayed them when he chose human "meat" over listener "broth." This transition caused the replacement of Adonalsium's investiture with Honor's over time. The Stormfather was the only nearby sentient entity when Odium killed Honor. I believe Honor's remaining investiture attached itself to the Stormfather at that time. IMO, that's WHY the Stormfather is Honor's cognitive shadow and why the Stormfather is the purest form of Honor. How could the Stormfather become Honor's cognitive shadow if he didn't hold Honor's investiture almost exclusively? The cited WoB to me highlights the gap between the spren's subjective view of themselves and the objective reality. Those views may or may not coincide. Even the statement that Syl "would be the purest form" is immediately changed to say "MANY would view her as the purest form." IMO, the WoB reflects the intense political conflict among the spren types that Jasnah refers to, rather than an objective assessment of the merits of any spren's claim to "purity." (Wyndle is pure Cultivation? Really?) 2. On mandate-meshing, I'm not suggesting the result is "the equivalent of what a person holding both Honor and Cultivation (the full Shards) would be." The opposite in fact. I'm suggesting that mandate-meshing at the splinter level CREATES NEW MANDATES - and hence new investitures - the splinters that become Radiantspren. I agree "the combinations of Cultivation and Honor are still very specific and concrete relative to their parent Shards." Honor binds, and will bind/mesh with Cultivation's investiture in different proportions to create something new, the ten investitures that power the KR Orders. IMO, these new investitures do NOT derive in any way from mandate subdivision, but rather solely from mandate-meshing. 3. Regarding whether Adonalsium's investiture was subject to mandates, I agree with your view of the significance of the Second Letter, but disagree as to its meaning. Unlike the Shards, Adonalsium's power was balanced - that's what the "divine hatred separated from the virtues that gave it context" statement means. He exercised his power in the "context" of ALL the "virtues" that became mandates post-Shattering. No single "virtue" disproportionately influenced that power. Post-Shattering, all or some of these "virtues," acting singly, became the mandates that changed the nature of each Shard's investiture. Pre-Shattering, however, I believe they tended to balance one another.

Moogle, I disagree. Following is interpretation not based on canon: 1. I think Bondsmiths represent Honor's mandate (intent) in its purest form, not Windrunners. Dalinar's spren is the Stormfather, whom I believe is the embodiment of Honor and, as the only nearby sentient entity when Odium killed Honor, became the repository of most of Honor's investiture. Kaladin's spren is Syl, the Stormfather's "daughter." Opposite Bondsmiths on the KR "Round Table" are Truthwatchers, whom I believe represent Cultivation's purest mandate (which I now believe is Time). 2. I further think that each of the other KR Orders reflect "intent [mandate] meshing" between Honor and Cultivation. (Some poster I respect wrote a theory about that...) Since both Honor and Cultivation are invested only in Roshar, the only thing that distinguishes their magic is their differing mandates. IOW, mandate-meshing causes spren differences on Roshar, not subdivisions of Honor's mandate. 3. Sel is peculiar among Shardworlds because of the primacy of the command itself (the Aon or soulstamp, etc.) over the magic that executes the command (the Dor). The latter seems to fulfill all commands wherever and however on Sel they arise. MISTER Sanderson has commented on this "programming" aspect of Selish magic. Therefore, we'd expect that Seons formed around Aons (how does that happen?) would act in accordance with the Aon command (the actual splinter) at their core. I don't believe this involves "submandates" at all except in the broadest sense. 4. Your comparison with Odium's "divine hatred" raises interesting issues. Adonalsium was integrated, and its investiture lacked mandates. I've always thought it peculiar that Adonalsium Shattered into mandated investiture. It could have Shattered into whole, fully integrated bits of Adonalsium. It could have Shattered along the lines of different powers of creation. But instead it did this weird thing. That's why I wouldn't use the Shattering as an analog for mandate subdivision, at least until we know more about the process.

This is interesting and strange. I'd like to see the WoB that Mason refers to in his question to MISTER Sanderson that Skaa cites. A host of ambiguity can be found in the words, splintering and shattering are "ESSENTIALLY the same." Sazed tells us that Shard mandates/intents arose as a consequence of the Shattering. Therefore, questions: 1. If Shattering and splintering are "essentially the same," then are mandates/intents irrelevant to the splintering process? 2. Why did the Shattering create mandates, but splinters carry the same mandated investiture as their original Shard? Anyone have answers?

I’ve rambled on about this subject twice before. Now that there are some newer WoBs out, it’s time for Take 3. I believe forced splintering involves changing a Shard’s Cognitive Realm investiture – the material of its Mind – over time. Eventually, the local Cognitive investiture – the Shard’s Mind – will lose its capacity to direct its power. The power then seeks other minds to direct it, or the power becomes self-directing as a splinter. How does this happen? Odium is the only known Shard-splinterer. (Vin didn’t splinter Ruin; Ruin remained whole for Sazed to take up.) Let’s look at what I believe is Odium’s method. 1. Odium doesn’t waste himself by investing in a planet or change himself by absorbing the power of the Shards he splinters. We know he is restrained on Roshar, but I believe that Odium can influence sapient minds throughout the Cosmere, causing them to have “hateful thoughts.” Roshar is an example. WoB and text describe the local humans as diverse, fractious and warlike. Those traits result in many “hateful thoughts.” I’m curious to know Sel’s history: was there a period of rebellion among an otherwise “unified” population that preceded Domination’s and Devotion’s splintering? 2. Such “hateful thoughts” become a GROWING part of that Shardworld’s Cognitive and Spiritual Realms. They begin to change the Shard’s Cognitive Realm investiture, its Mind. My analogy is brain cancer squeezing out healthy cells, interfering with the capacity to think and function. When a Shard invests in a planet, its Mind and Body merge into the fabric of the planet and becomes one with it. That’s how the planet BECOMES a “Shardworld” – that unique combination of time, place and mandate (intent) that defines each such planet and its magic. “Time and place” refer to the then prevailing physical and social cultures of a Shardworld. The very substance of each Shardworld’s Cognitive investiture (the Mind of the local Shard) is a mixture of the ideas and emotions generated by these cultures, plus the Shard’s own thoughts and ideas. These are stitched together in the pattern compelled by the Shard’s mandate (intent) to produce the Cognitive component of each Shardworld’s magic system. On each Shardworld, the Shard’s Mind and mortal minds thus merge into one substance. That substance – the Shardworld’s Cognitive investiture – is unique to that Shardworld and exists nowhere else in the Cosmere. 3. MISTER Sanderson gives us the mechanism for this process in the draft SLA 3 Jasnah excerpt. There we see Ivory warning Jasnah to beware of painspren because painspren can “harm more” when Jasnah is physically in the Cognitive Realm. This excerpt is in draft form and may not make it to the final novel, but I doubt that MISTER Sanderson would change this aspect of the Cognitive Realm. Thus, ideas do battle in the Cognitive Realm, competing to stick around and become Spiritual Realm ideals. Some ideas survive; others do not. In this environment, “hateful thoughts” are likely to do well. “Hateful thoughts” are aggressive and hurtful, as we’ve seen with the listeners. In Stormform, “amusement” becomes “ridicule,” and Eshonai feels “fury,” “irritation” and “spite.” Such hostile, aggressive ideas can drive out other thoughts. In Elantris, Dilaf tells Hrathen how he found love in Arelon. But when an Elantrian misused his magic and couldn’t save Dilaf’s wife, Dilaf devoted himself to Elantris’s destruction. Hate drove out love. The fact that Raoden read about this event suggests we’ll hear more about it. Did Odium influence the mis-healing Elantrian to make a mistake at the critical moment? 4. The result over time is a local Cognitive Realm changed dramatically by “hateful thoughts.” The Shard’s Mind is now something different and more hateful than it previously was. I suggest that the local Shard at that point can no longer exercise its power due to the mismatch between its Mind and Body. That’s when its power begins to splinter, since Odium doesn’t assume it. Eventually the Shard dies. EDITED to reflect Stormgate's correction.