Confused

Lots of predictions about these two on other threads covering all aspects of their individual and joint lives. I’ll just add a few ideas to the general discussion: Adolin Will Not Become a KR In WoR, Sadeas observes how much Adolin has grown to be like Dalinar in his younger days (unfortunately for Sadeas). I think this foreshadows how Adolin will at some point become the leader of the Alethi army, the new Blackthorn, and the Kholin Highprince. Being a KR is superfluous to these roles. If something happens to Elhokar and his son, then Adolin in the future may even become the Alethi King. Friction Between Adolin and Shallan As mentioned in Part 1 of this series of posts (about Kaladin), I believe Kaladin will be blamed for Sadeas’ murder. Reasons: (1) People will assume that someone connected with Dalinar did the deed; (2) everyone knows that Kaladin passionately hates Sadeas; (3) Kaladin is Dalinar’s Captain of the Guard; (4) Kaladin disappears the day after the murder; (5) Kaladin is known for using his side knife on an opponent’s eye (not just Helaran, but he also threatened Jakhamav during the duel the same way); (6) for reasons expressed in Part 1, Amaram will point people in Kaladin’s direction, and (7) people will assume that if Adolin wanted to kill Sadeas, he would have confronted Sadeas openly rather than murder him secretly. Adolin at first will not confess his crime, but I do think he will confide in Shallan. She will be appalled – not because he murdered Sadeas (glass houses and all that) – but because he is willing to let Kaladin take the rap. Until Adolin makes his public confession, there will be serious difficulties between the two. Plus, absence makes the heart grow fonder. Kaladin will rise in her estimation simply because he is not there. Adolin will suffer from the comparison with a phantom. (I know many on this Forum think Shallan will discover that Kaladin killed Helaran, damaging her relationship with him. Kaladin may tell her himself. But that may not happen in this book, and by the time it does, Shallan may be over her grief.) At some point in the book, Adolin and Shallan will work things out. In saying this, I’m not suggesting one way or the other who will ultimately “get the girl” in this plot. I just think there will be friction between Adolin and Shallan for a time. Shallan Will Become Dalinar’s “Right Hand Person” I think she already is. But because she is further along in her development as a KR than anyone we’ve seen so far other than Jasnah (with whom Dalinar has compared her), and because she is a scholar who will have closely read Words of Radiance, among other things, Dalinar will come to depend on her greatly. (She is, after all, his future daughter-in-law – at least in his mind.) It will also be interesting to see how her relationship with Sebarial and Palona will develop. Everyone will physically be much closer to one another in Urithiru, and we all suspect that these two are much more than they seem. I can see them growing into a Godparents role for Shallan (not in the Francis Ford Coppola sense…well, maybe.) Shallan Will Accept Her Role with the Ghostbloods Shallan’s need to discover the truth about her family will lead her to join the Ghostbloods. She will want assurances, as Mraize seemed to provide at the end of WoR, that her activities for the Ghostbloods will not run counter to her duties as a KR and her help in the defense of humankind. She will also want assurances that the Ghostbloods will not hurt anyone else she loves or cares for. While Mraize views her as his replacement soulcaster, Shallan will do much more than that. It will be easy within the relatively small confines of Urithiru to discover all sorts of secrets from Urithiru’s archives and its current occupants. I suspect that at some point Sebarial and/or Palona will discover her activities. I’m curious what their advice will be then. And Shallan will learn how to soulcast...

Sorry for the confusion about Nale (I AM Confused). Yes, it's a bad and stupid pun, but somehow appropriate (at least to me) - he's "bent" (corrupted) and his name is a homonym for "nail." RShara, perhaps you can confirm, but I thought there is WoB saying that "Nale" is the Herald's actual name, not Nalan (Alethkar) or Nin (Shinovar). Aether said: "Maybe more open to outside influences, but not direct control." I'm suggesting, not positing, that wider cracks MAY let Odium affect a broken soul, whether by direct control or influence. It's a common trope, not just used in Mistborn, but that doesn't make it the less effective a plot device. So, now that we've established I'm a bad punster, what about the substance of my OP: Do you think too much Stormlight can further break down an already broken soul? Do you think that's what's happened with Nale and the other heralds?

First, props to Moogle for causing me to re-read the back covers. And here is what I found in WoR: “It is the nature of the magic. A broken soul has cracks into which something else can be fit. Surgebindings, the powers of creation themselves; they can brace a broken soul, but they can also widen its fissures.” [A quick observation: I thought that surges were the “powers of creation” and surgebindings were the ability to manipulate the surges.] I think what happened to Bent Nale is that his “fissures” widened, further breaking his soul rather than bracing it. Breaking the Oathpact might have been the event that first broke his soul (especially given his temperament). Remaining on Roshar might have broken him further. It continued his exposure to Stormlight, which Kaladin says “were the Surges reduced to some primal form.” (WoR, Hardback, p. 469.) This may be what Syl meant when she told Kaladin that too much Stormlight is bad for the health. An added possibility is that wider soul fissures invite Odium in. Many speculate that Odium has corrupted Bent Nale and the other Heralds. This may be the mechanism for such corruption - why Bent Nale’s Prologue companion notes that Ash is “getting worse” and he feels like he too is “getting worse” – too much exposure to Stormlight/the surges.

In the dueling scene, Relis is about to kill Renarin (emphasis added): Relis skidded to a stop, raising his Blade high over his head toward the defenseless prince. Renarin closed his eyes, looking upward, as if exposing his throat. Kaladin wasn’t going to arrive in time. He was too slow compared to a man in Plate. Relis hesitated, fortunately, as if unwilling to strike Renarin. Kaladin arrived. Relis spun around and swung at him instead. You can read this scene three ways: (1) Relis just hesitated, when he realized he was about to kill an innocent second son of a Highprince; (2) Renarin saw the future and knew that Relis would hesitate, giving Kaladin the time to save him; or (3) Renarin caused time to slow around him and Relis, just like a time bubble on Scadrial. I vote for Door #3. The Truthwatchers have the Progression and Illumination surges. Illumination may enable Truthwatchers to “see” the future, but Progression may enable them to slow down or speed up the future. Thoughts?

Veil and Aleksiel, the reason I chose this ideal is because no one knows the Everstorm is coming and no one believes the Parshmen are a danger. Almost everyone Kaladin saves will think they don't need protecting. Yet Kaladin promised Dalinar he would do as much as he could to help. To unlock the Kholinar Oathgate, he may need more investiture than he currently has; hence, the fourth Ideal. As the author of a post about the meaning of primary versus secondary Divine Attributes, I agree with Aleksiel that all of Kaladin's oaths will involve Protection rather than Leadership. Maybe for the reasons Veil states, his fourth Ideal might be something like "I will protect only those that I can." But it could well be Veil's second suggestion about helping others protect themselves. Delightful, you're right, Kaladin probably won't allow himself to be imprisoned. I'm just suggesting he might if he thought it would protect his parents, especially since he knows he could bust out at any time. And I agree with you about Moash - I almost added that possibility to my OP, but rejected it because of its unlikelihood, however much sense it makes. How come no one commented on my Saigon 1975 image - the last American helicopter leaving the American embassy there with people clinging to it? I thought that might be controversial. Reading everyone's posts on this Forum, I think It's always interesting what people pick out to comment on. That's one of the things that makes this Forum so entertaining.

Well, 10.5% is better than my usual track record…My Stones Unhallowed Kaladin predictions: At WoR’s end, our hero is about to fall towards Hearthstone. Dalinar has asked Elhokar to approve a requisition of emerald broams while acknowledging that Stormlight has become a scarce resource. The Everstorm is moving around the world at a slower pace than the Highstorms, so Stormlight may replenish itself before the Everstorm arrives. We don’t have a clear idea of when either Storm will hit. I think Kaladin will decide not to enter Hearthstone as a KR and instead will stop short of the town and just walk in. He is unsure of his reception from Roshone and others, especially given how parochial and superstitious Hearthstone is. Many (most? all?) of its residents think the KR betrayed humankind. He also anticipates his return may initially shock his parents (assuming they’re both alive and well – BIG assumption) and won’t want to give them more than they can handle at once. Kaladin will also want to conserve his Stormlight as much as he can. He may even cache his spheres outside of town to ensure their safety and make it impossible for him to accidentally draw upon them and inadvertently glow. It’s unclear to me whether a KR’s natural eye color returns when he is completely drained of Stormlight, Because Kaladin himself won’t know, Shallan will give him Tyn’s “brown-eyed” solution before he leaves. Their parting will be interesting, as I suspect both will mask their ambiguous feelings towards each other (for different reasons) and will act either formally or jokingly. But there is a problem when Kaladin walks into Hearthstone as a brown-eyed soldier (whether or not he will be wearing his captain’s coat): his forehead still bears the “dangerous slave” brands. And the brands show the place of his enslavement, implying that Amaram enslaved him. That will lead people to think that Kaladin is a captured deserter who was punished by enslavement and has now escaped. Or it’s possible the story Amaram circulated that Kaladin tried to kill him, explaining Kaladin’s enslavement, got back to Hearthstone. Certainly Amaram’s cousin Roshone will think that. Roshone will check with Amaram to see what to do. And here is when the fun starts. I believe Amaram will blame Kaladin for Sadeas’ murder. This is Sadeas’ princedom, and if the Hearthstone people mistrusted Kaladin before, they will certainly hate him now. Kaladin’s parents will be endangered for harboring their prince’s assassin. Amaram will want Roshone to kill Kaladin to correct what Amaram considers his big mistake of showing mercy. Roshone will either try to arrange for Kaladin’s assassination or follow “legal process” to imprison Kaladin (and then try to execute him or assassinate him in prison). I assume that Kaladin won’t need Stormlight to summon Syl as a shardblade. If Kaladin allows himself to be imprisoned, it will be to protect his parents. As Dalinar told Kaladin in WoR, it is impossible to keep a shardbearer jailed against their will – they can just cut themselves out. While all this is going on, Kaladin will try to warn the people of Hearthstone of the coming Everstorm and the danger of the Parshmen. No one will believe him. After he’s done everything he thinks he can do, Kaladin will infuse himself with Stormlight and fly himself, his parents and maybe also Laral to Kholinar. Riots and civil discord will await Kaladin in Kholinar. Hard to speculate on what will happen there. Jasnah returned and working with Kaladin? Asuedon upset with Kaladin for rescuing her husband? Who knows… BUT, I believe Szeth and perhaps Bent Nale himself will confront Kaladin in Kholinar. AND I think Kaladin will state his fourth ideal here: “I will protect even those who don’t want to be protected.” (Maybe he’ll state this even earlier in Hearthstone, but I don’t know what he can personally do to protect the people there, since they have no Oathgate to open. Maybe some “wind-y” thing to create a protective weather dome over the city?) Also, I believe Kaladin will have lots of internal turmoil (what else is new?) when he realizes he cannot save everyone and he might have to choose between people, particularly between lighteyes and darkeyes. After everyone finally believes that the Everstorm is imminent, I envision a scene out of Saigon, 1975: the population storming the plateau that is the Oathgate, people being pulled down as they scramble up for a place of safety, people being pushed over the edge in the general melee – a horrible mess. Is there even a 10.5% chance of accuracy?

What do you make of a character whose name is an anagram for "Base Liar"? It's been speculated elsewhere that Sebarial is not what he seems. My theory is that he's Chach (or whatever the actual name for the Dustbringer herald is). In WoR Chapter 38 (Hardcover, p. 446), he tells Shallan that "Everyone knows I like to set things on fire and watch them burn." Chach's (and Dustbringer's) surges are Division and Abrasion. In the WoK Prelude, Dustrbingers are the ones who leave "still-smoldering" piles on the battlefield. Control over friction/fire may be how Sebarial and Palona keep warm and dry under their canopy during the Highstorm in WoR's climactic scene. Even if I'm wrong about who Sebarial really is, I still love the anagram...

Apparently the Unmade, which consensus holds are the listener gods, “ride the storms” like the Stormfather. Here’s what Eshonai says in Chapter I-5 (Hardcover, p. 395, emphasis added): “Eshonai preferred a shield. It felt more like facing the Rider straight on. This one, the soul of the storm, was the one the humans called Stormfather – and he was not one of her people’s gods…” Eshonai had gone out into the highstorm to bond with the stormspren. That is how the listeners change their forms. The reference to “this one” suggests that there are other “Riders,” “her people’s gods.” Presumably, when the listener gods “ride the storm,” they will bring with them some of the other forms of power we have not yet seen . But we have seen two occasions when what might be the listener gods have been out in the Highstorms. The first was when Kaladin is looking at a loose shutter in Elokhar’s chambers, and he thinks he sees eyes staring though the slats. The second is when he and Shallan are in their chasm “cubby” waiting out the highstorm that has trapped them. There he sees two multi-legged creatures of light. Each of these appearances occurs before the listeners have called the Everstorm. Where were the Unmade before this, and did they come back because Taln did? Will the KR by themselves be able to face them, or will the Heralds recover their honorblades and also participate? Can't wait to find out...

While looking at the WoR “Ars Arcanum,” chart, a thought occurred: it seems that each KR order’s primary Divine Attribute is what attracts the requisite spren to that person in the first place (the “input”), and the secondary Divine Attribute is the “output” – how that person behaves once the Nahel bond is in place. Here are the Divine Attributes for each order: KR Order Primary Attribute Secondary Attribute Windrunners Protecting Leading Skybreakers Just Confident Dustrbringers Brave Obedient Edgedancers Loving Healing Truthwatchers Learned Giving LIghtweavers Creative Honest Elsecallers Wise Careful Willshapers Resolute Builder Stonewards Dependable Resourceful Bondsmiths Pious Guiding Here’s what I think happens: A Windrunner’s protectiveness attracts an honorspren, after which the Windrunner leads (Honor’s “binding” nature). A Skybreaker’s innate sense of justice attracts a highspren, after which the Skybreaker is more confident in making his or her judgments. A Dustbringer’s bravery attracts its spren, after which the Dustbringer tempers his or her courage (which can often be foolhardy) with adherence to others (“obedience”). An Edgedancer’s love, post-bond, enables him or her to heal. The benefit of a Truthwatcher’s erudition, post-bond, is given to others. A Lightweaver’s creativity, post-bond, allows others to see their true selves. An Elsecaller’s wisdom, post-bond, makes him or her more careful. A Willshaper’s resoluteness, post-bond, enables him or her to build. A Stoneward’s dependability, post-bond, makes him or her more resourceful. A Bondsmith’s piety, post-bond, helps guide others. With some of these, its hard to distinguish whether the KR always evidenced both Attributes, contrary to my suggestion, or whether the secondary Attribute kicked in after the bonding. In others (Edgedancers and Lightweavers, for example), I think my suggestion works pretty well. This probably lacks much significance, but I still found it interesting.

Kari...in her latest post said "I remembered that Dalinar might have somehow been using Stormlight (in small amounts) most of his life (to help with healing wounds and maybe more). I wonder what's going on here since it doesn't seem to fit the KR spren pattern. I'll have to think about it some more..." In a topic I started named "Dalinar's 'Dream' and the Spiritual Realm," I addressed this question. I posited that Dalinar had some link to the spiritual realm that allowed him to heal. "My thought is that the light source represents the remnants of Honor in the spiritual realm, just as the Highstorms represent it in the physical realm and the Stormfather represents it in the cognitive realm. Investiture, according to Brandon, exists in all three realms. Perhaps the spiritual realm has infused Dalinar with some limited self-healing power comparable to the resurrecting power of Divine Breath." Other posters thought that Dalinar's healing stemmed from his bond with the Stormfather. I rejected this idea because that would have aged Dalinar's bond to cover his entire adult fighting life - about thirty years or so. I cited WoB that Nahel bonds dissipate with time if the incipient KR fails to state his or her ideals. Kaladin's and Shallan's initial bond might have endured 6-7 years, but 30 years seemed too long to me. Food for thought as you "think about it some more..."

As the creator of the Roshar-Greatshell theory (Post 159 on page 8), I also still have hope. We'll just have to name her "Julia"...

Regarding Kasimir's question about how Desolations threaten spren existence: As the personification of thought, spren in Shadesmar are created and maintained by cognitive beings (humans and listeners). On another thread, I described the difference between human-bonded spren and listener-bonded spren as follows: "Human experience - emotionally individualistic coupled with an ever-changing material culture - varies far more than the Listener experience of communal emotional responses (the rhythms) and a relatively static material culture. An individualistic culture will create more, and more varied, spren than a communal one. These are simply differences in temperament and culture, not differences in emotional or intellectual capacity. Eshonai and Venli are a match for any human. When spren seek sentience in the physical realm, they will thus have more varied opportunities among humans for finding suitable hosts." If the Desolations were to destroy humans, spren would lose these opportunities and perhaps even lose their sentience in Shadesmar itself. Here's what Pattern says to Shallan in WoR Chapter 24: "'Spren,' Shallan said. 'If people weren't here, would spren have thought?' "'Not here, in this [the physical] realm,' Pattern said. 'I do not know about the other [the cognitive] realm...'" I think this is sufficient reason for the spren to be concerned about Desolations.

"Justice" IS a vague concept, but it's not necessarily one's personal view. The political philosopher John Rawls, in his book A Theory of Justice, posited that justice is fairness: the set of rules that two people would agree on to govern their conduct if neither knew the other's or their own status in society. I'm not sure Ren's quotes support his theory of a "higher" law. Those quotes suggest that Nale's conception of legal compliance seems very nation-centric. This is also supported by the Lift interlude. As long as one adheres to the laws of the locality, Nale will be satisfied, even delighted. Since WoB states that the Skybreakers are like the MPs of the KR, I wonder what "laws" govern KR conduct. Is there anything beside Ishar's? This is probably what started the internal KR disputes.

I’ve noticed several posts that question why the second attribute of Lightweavers is honesty. These posts point out that Shallan has truthfulness issues and that Pattern is described as a “liespren.” LIghtweavers are not liars, they just have an artist’s sensibility and vision. Artists see things that others miss. They see the “deeper truths” within the lie, the truths that lies illuminate. That’s why when Shallan draws the deserters, she makes them stalwart, noble and brave – how they perceived themselves when they were still soldiers. And since Transformation is one of her Lightweaver surges, the deserters actually rise to the image she draws of them, becoming what she sees. (This may become a problem later on for Shallan as Veil…) Shallan’s personal self-deception and truthfulness issues (both of which she’s working toward overcoming by book’s end) are really beside the point. It’s her honesty at rendering perception into reality that makes her a Lightweaver.

I had started a topic wondering about the source of the word "Nahel" in Nahel bond. WeiryWriter pointed out that suffixes are important in Roshar naming conventions, and that the suffix of Nahel is "el" as in Zahel. That got me thinking. . Roshar is a colony of Krypton, settled by Superman's family! Superman's father was Jor-el, his name is Kal-el. "Kal"-adin's childhood girlfriend's name is the symmetrically blasphemous Laral - Superman's mother's name, Lara plus the family name "el" but dropping the "e" so you don't have two consecutive vowels. And don't forget Superman's younger brother, Stick-el! It all makes sense now!

The epigraph to WoR Chapter 35 says "They also, when they had settled their rulings in the nature of each bond’s placement, called the name of it the Nahel bond, with regard to its effect upon the souls of those caught in its grip..." Since each Order has a "body focus" - hair, nails, bones, etc. - I wonder if the bond's spiritual location in the surgebinder's soul determines which surges the KR gets? Or are the surges only a function of the particular spren that KR bonds with? Or both - the particular spren always choosing to place the bond in the same spiritual location? Just another crackpot theory...

I’ve wondered about the in-world source of the word “Nahel.” We know that Adonalsium had invested on Roshar. Could the word "Nahel" be a corruption of the name “Adonalsium” – “Nahel” from “nalsium”? There is some assonance there, the vowels and stress sort of sounding alike. If the Nahel bond was intended to mimic “the bonds that drive Roshar itself” (according to the Chapter 35 epigraph), and Adonalsium put at least some of those bonds in place, then maybe...? Not asserting this, though; just another crackpot theory.

Theory in brief: There are “fundamental forces” on Roshar that are not surges. I believe the KR will be able to use these forces to defeat Odium. The following quote got me thinking: “[syl] nodded, alighting in the air and settling down, her legs crossed at the knees as if she was primly seating herself in an invisible chair. She continued to hover there, moving exactly in step with him. “’Giving up all pretense of obeying natural laws again, I see,’ [Kaladin] said. “’Natural laws?’ Syl said, finding the concept amusing. “Laws are of men, Kaladin. Nature doesn’t have them! [...] It’s more like…more like an agreement among friends.’” WoR, p. 130 (hardcover). Syl makes this last statement as Kaladin begins his surgebinding education. I immediately thought of Morpheus and Neo in The Matrix. Syl’s teasing tone masks the truth of Roshar: that even the surges themselves are contrivances – “an agreement among friends.” The Ars Arcanum author states in WoR that the “Ten Surges…thought to be the fundamental forces by which the world operates – are more accurately a representation of the ten basic abilities offered to the Heralds, and then the Knights Radiant, by their bonds.” This definition of the surges suggests that Roshar “operates” by fundamental forces in addition to or other than the ten surges. Syl’s light-hearted comment about natural law turns out to be accurate – it IS an “agreement among friends” – the Oathpact itself! The epigraph to WoR Chapter 35 (from the in-world Words of Radiance, chapter 8, page 6) describes that “agreement” as applied to the KR through the Nahel bond: “They also, when they had settled their rulings in the nature of each bond’s placement, called the name of it the Nahel bond, with regard to its effect upon the souls of those caught in its grip; in this description, each was related to the bonds that drive Roshar itself, ten Surges, named in turn and two for each order; in this light, it can be seen that each order would by necessity share one Surge with each of its neighbors.” Note that this agreement limits the surges that any order of KR can bind, but not other forces. Moreover, the statement that each surge “was related to the bonds that drive Roshar itself” suggests that when Adonalsium and/or some or all of the three Shards invested on Roshar, they bound Roshar’s physical phenomenon within certain constraints. [Speculation: Because the Everstorm moves west to east, will it somehow undo “the bonds that drive Roshar”? Will it thus also undo whatever it is that binds Odium to the Rosharian system? Is this what the Everstorm is intended to do, rather than to simply wipe out humanity? And has Odium used the pretext of a Listener triumph over humans as the motivation for them to create the Everstorm? The epigraph to WoR Chapter 89 (emphasis added and reformatted), from the Diagram, says "destroy [the Parshendi] ​outright ​before [​one of them] ​obtains ​their ​power. ​It ​will ​form ​a bridge."] The Ars Arcanum author believes “there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings. Perhaps the Old Magic fits into those, though I am beginning to suspect that is something entirely different.” What are the implications for Roshar and the war against Odium if there are other fundamental forces than the surges and another “series of abilities” than surge- and voidbinding? Some observations: Nothing in the Nahel bond version of the Oathpact precludes the KR from using non-surge forces. The other “series of abilities” predicted by the Ars Arcanum author may involve these non-surge forces. We don’t yet know either the mechanism or the means or medium of Investiture necessary to access the non-surge forces. Prediction: By Book 10, our SA heroes will discover and find a way to utilize these non-surge forces to win the war against Odium.

There have been all sorts of theories regarding the origin and nature of the Stormfather and Nightwatcher. Mine is that Honor and Cultivation each invested the current incarnation of the Stormfather; and that Cultivation and either Adonalsium (though the “Old Magic”) or Odium each invested the current incarnation of the Nightwatcher. The Stormfather Both the Highstorms and the Stormfather pre-exist the arrival of Honor, Cultivation and humans on Roshar. Originally, the Highstorms were merely meteorological events. WoB states that at some point the Highstorms also became magical events. Our fearless WoB compiler RShara says she understands Brandon to mean “the stormlight part of the storm was added later, I'm assuming by a Shard.” Eshonai says the Stormfather is a traitor who was once a friend. This description suggests the Stormfather was the spren who personified the Highstorms to the Listeners. Eshonai also says the Highstorms and the Stormfather are involved in Listener form changes. Subsequent WoR events confirm that statement. The Stormfather now identifies himself as a sliver, a splinter and the spren of Honor. Humans personified Honor (the “Almighty”) as the Stormfather, by which the Stormfather became Honor’s spren. Though the Listeners claim the Stormfather betrayed them, it is unclear whether the Stormfather could have simultaneously remained a Listener’s spren. Eshonai’s comments suggest that the Stormfather may no longer be serving his function of overseeing Listener form changes, but we have no evidence of this. To the contrary, the Listeners continued to undergo their pre-stormspren form changes during Highstorms. The Stormfather’s failure to help Eshonai when she was being bound by the stormspren does not provide proof one way or the other. Throughout WoR, we see that the Stormfather has no autonomy regarding the bonding process. He accepts all KR oaths, and Syl says he has no power to stop the tightening of the Nahel bond if the KR “says the words.” This is no different than how he behaves towards Eshonai. The Stormfather states he is also a sliver of Honor. He claims he was present when Odium “murdered” Honor and fled. The following WoB provides guidance on how the Stormfather became Honor’s sliver: “Q: If Endowment were killed, would the Returned still come?” “A: Somebody needs to hold the magic. If no one holds the magic, the magic will gain sentience. Interesting and bizarre things happen then…” Odium (or rather Rayse) did not acquire any part of Honor’s splinters because other WoB says Rayse did not want to dilute his essence, his “hatefulness.” The only other sentient being in the neighborhood was the Stormfather. I believe the Stormfather absorbed Honor’s splinters and “fled.” Some indefinite time afterwards (immediately?), the Stormfather released Honor’s splinters, which greatly increased the number of Roshar’s spren (emphasis added): “Q: Were there spren bonds before Aharietiam?” “A: …The spren were around back then but they're not nearly what they are now. They've changed over the course of the book obviously…They are much more prevalent following Honor and what happened to him, but there were some spren on the planet before even that happened.” And, of course, the Stormfather retained a splinter of Honor as well. The Stormfather is thus simultaneously a spren, a sliver and a splinter of Honor, as he claims. But Cultivation has also invested the Stormfather. At a recent WoR signing, a fan asked Brandon to write something in his copy (emphasis added): “Q: For Words of Radiance, could you put a comment about something in the upcoming books, nothing specific, just something I can think about? Something like "Renarin has a spren" you wrote for somebody else in The Way of Kings? “A: [brandon wrote] ‘Stormlight makes plants grow.’" I believe the power of growth – Progression – belongs to Cultivation, not Honor. Cultivation is apparently the Shard responsible for stormlight, making plants grow and facilitating surgebinder healing. Thus, the Stormfather is a splinter of BOTH Cultivation and Honor. He may bring the Highstorms, but the stormlight the Highstorms contain come from Cultivation. The Nightwatcher We have not yet met the Nightwatcher and have much less information about her than we do the Stormfather. All we know is the following: Humans come to her for boons, which she dispenses together with a curse. Humans believe the Nightwatcher controls the “Old Magic.” Brandon has not explained what the “Old Magic” is. We believe the Nightwatcher selected Lift for Wyndle to bond with. This belief is based on Wyndle describing her as “Mother.” Since Syl and other spren call the Stormfather (and not Honor) “Father,” Wyndle’s designation suggests “Mother” means the Nightwatcher and not Cultivation. The Nightwatcher resides in the “The Valley,” which is located in the mountains between Emul and Greater Hexi. It is generally accepted in these Forums that the Nightwatcher is a rough analog to the Stormfather: Cultivation’s spren in the same way the Stormfather is Honor’s spren. This seems confirmed by Lift’s Nahel bond with Wyndle: the two surges granted Lift are Progression and Abrasion. Based on the surgebinding table and the concept of “cultivation,” these surges appear to stem from Cultivation. WoB states the analogy with the Stormfather is “on the right track” but not precisely correct. That statement suggests something else is part of the Nightwatcher. That may be why the Nightwatcher curses as well as grants boons. There are two other potential sources of Investiture in her: the “Old Magic” and Odium. According to the Coppermind Wiki, the “Old Magic” was the dominant religion on Roshar before the rise of Vorinism. Since Brandon has said that all Cosmere magic ultimately derives from Adonalsium, and we know Adonalsium has invested on Roshar, then the “Old Magic” may be derived from Adonalsium. If so, then the Nightwatcher is a spren of both Cultivation and Adonalsium. Alternatively, because the Nightwatcher curses her beneficiaries, Odium may have invested in the Nightwatcher. Both her name and behavior imply a darkness or meanness to her character. Human consciousness may have personified the uncertainties of growth and development in both beneficial and hateful terms, thus producing a spren comprised of both Shards. I find it interesting that the Nightwatcher’s curses seem unrelated to her boons: that would imply an almost schizophrenic or multiple personality spren whose two components don’t coordinate. We may not learn a lot more about the Nightwatcher until the second five SA books. That’s a long time to wait…

Ati, good catch! I chose to simplify the essential point about the personification of surgebinding without delving into an Order by Order analysis. But you are correct: I think individual types of spren "mutated" into spren that matched the Herald attributes and therefore could bond: windspren became honorspren, some Cryptics reflecting natural patterns became "liespren," etc. The conclusion remains the same - the spren did not "choose" humans over Listeners. There's a more general phenomenon going on here a description of which I deleted from my first draft: Human experience - emotionally individualistic coupled with an ever-changing material culture - varies far more than the Listener experience of communal emotional responses (the rhythms) and a relatively static material culture. An individualistic culture will create more, and more varied, spren than a communal one. These are simply differences in temperament and culture, not differences in emotional or intellectual capacity. Eshonai and Venli are a match for any human. When spren seek sentience in the physical realm, they will thus have more varied opportunities among humans for finding suitable hosts. Kaellok, I believe the Stormfather's "betrayal" was allowing himself to be bound to Bondsmiths. Syl says the Stormfather must accept oaths given. He has no choice. It's unsurprising, then, that he can likewise do nothing to interfere with Eshonai's decision to bond with the stormspren. Entropicscholar, thanks for your reply, but I disagree. Love your name: do you study entropy?

The Listeners seem to believe that the spren chose humans instead of Listeners as surgebinders because the Listeners were in some way inadequate. Following, respectively, are the Listener Song of Spren, 9th Stanza (epigraph to WoR Chapter 32) and the Listener Song of Secrets, 40th Stanza (epigraph to WoR Chapter 28): "The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt. Our minds are too close to their realm That gives us our forms, but more is then Demanded by the smartest spren, We can’t provide what the humans lend, Though broth are we, their meat is men." "The betrayal of spren has brought us here. They gave their Surges to human heirs, But not to those who know them most dear, before us. ’Tis no surprise we turned away Unto the gods we spent our days And to become their molding clay, they changed us." These passages seem to get backwards the relationship between cognitive beings (humans and Listeners), on the one hand, and spren. New types of spren come into existence when cognitive beings on Roshar personify something they have created or observed. Honor created surgebinding when he gave the Honorblades to the human Heralds. Sometime later, after the concept of human surgebinding had become personified in Shadesmar, spren created other human surgebinders through the Nahel bond. Spren did not “choose” humans to be surgebinders. There were simply no spren that personified a Listener surgebinding experience. That doesn’t mean it can’t be done. WoB states Listener surgebinding is possible. It just hasn’t been done. Yet…

Moogle, I'm Confused too! I agree that Brandon has been cagey about what entities inhabit the spiritual realm and has mentioned only the platonic ideals/forms. I'm simply speculating from the scant evidence that Dalinar's "dream" was actually a vision emanating from the spiritual realm. That evidence primarily consists of Brandon's use of the word "should" - which I believe you would agree is an aspirational, almost moralistic (and hence, spiritual) word - and the fact that the light source generated suffusing warmth, unlike visions from the cognitive realm. Since we know so little about the spiritual realm, why must we assume that a platonic form has to be the source, as opposed to the fabric, of a vision? (At least that's how I understand your questions.) If this vision does emanate from the spiritual realm, I would expect that ideals would show up in it. That differentiates this vision from Dalinar's other visions, which incorporated changes, people, lots of moving parts. Any vision that includes change arguably can't represent an ideal, because ideals are perfect as they are. This vision did not have moving parts, other than Dalinar himself. Regarding your second point, I conceded in my OP the possibility that Dalinar's pre-Oath bond with the Stormfather may have helped heal him. But I opted for a spiritual realm alternative mostly because Dalinar's healing occurred over a lifetime of wounds. WoB states that an initial Nahel bond will dissipate with time if no oaths are given. Healing from the Nahel bond would not have endured over such a long period. I also think you overstate how long Dalinar has been bonded to the Stormfather. Brandon has said (and my memory may be faulty on this) that the bond has been in effect for "some time," certainly not a "very long time." Many of us think that the bond began more or less with Dalinar's first vision. (By the way, what is the source of the word "Nahel" bond? I remember from WoK that Nohadon used that term, but the meaning of the word "Nahel" has never been explained, or at least I don't recall the explanation.) In any event, yes, the Nahel bond is a spiritual bond, it affects the soul. But that doesn't mean it's the only spiritual connection. You didn't address the main point that a Bondsmith would be expected to have special access to the spiritual realm. How does that happen? There could be some mechanism other than the Nahel bond itself. I believe such access stems from a Bondsmith's Divine Attributes of piety and guidance; Dalinar, after all, was referred to as a "prophet" somewhere in these books (don't recall, though, whether that was said genuinely or derisively.) And I've assumed that stormlight was an Investiture manifestation in the physical realm. But WoB states that Investiture is present in all three realms. My OP speculates there is some spiritual realm form of Investiture that can have physical realm effects. The difference between stormlight and a spiritual form of Investiture might be analogized to the difference between mere Breath and Divine Breath. I hope I've satisfactorily addressed your questions, but would be happy to continue the discussion. Always entertaining... Now, EMTrevor, I don't disagree with you. My first draft referred to "the Divine" rather than a specific Shard. My second draft referred to Honor and/or Cultivation for many of the reasons you cite. I ultimately opted for just Honor because a cold light in the cognitive realm should be matched with a warm light in the spiritual realm. Hence, I attributed everything to Honor (which really begs the question...) I do have more to say about the relationship among Honor, Cultivation, the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher, but that's not for this post.

Gotta say...We're all p.o.'d at Martin for taking forever and losing his way with ASOIAF. But the fact is, he's a superb writer and world-builder - better than everyone mentioned. ASOIAF is as novel, intricate and complex a story as any, yet wonderfully engaging (until recently). I'm hoping Martin will get himself going again soon, now that the TV series has almost caught up with the novels. And Jon Snow is a GREAT hero - AND IS NOT DEAD!

Before speaking his oaths to the Stormfather, Dalinar has a vision perhaps “stronger” than the others. The Stormfather says he didn’t send it: “No vision was sent this morning…A simple dream. Not of me.” I believe that Dalinar’s “dream” is a vision from the spiritual realm. The vision suggests that Dalinar had access to the spiritual realm as a boy. Now that he has unburdened himself of his guilt for “letting Gavilar die,” the visions reintroduce themselves. Dalinar is a Bondsmith, with Divine Attributes of “pious/guiding.” He may need spiritual realm access to accomplish his tasks. Dalinar’s sensitivity to the spiritual realm may be why the Stormfather chose Dalinar to reveal his visions to and to bond with. In the dream, Dalinar stands in darkness, then turns about and sees furniture and furnishings he remembers (emphasis in original): “My house, he thought. As it was when I was a child. Back before conquest, back before Gavilar… “Gavilar…hadn’t Gavilar died? No, Dalinar could hear his brother laughing in the next room. He was a child. They both were. “Dalinar crossed the shadowed room, feeling the fuzzy joy of familiarity. Of things being as they should be. He’d left his wooden swords out. He had a collection, each carved like a Shardblade. He was too old for those now, of course, but he still liked having them. As a collection. “He stepped to the balcony doors and pushed them open. “Warm light bathed him. A deep, enveloping, piercing warmth. A warmth that soaked down deep through his skin, into his very self. He stared at that light, and was not blinded. The source was distant, but he knew it. Knew it well.” In sequence, the first noteworthy aspect is the snippet, “back before Gavilar…Gavilar…hadn’t Gavilar died?” I interpret this phrasing to mean that Dalinar replaces one chain of thought with another. The unfinished thought refers to something other than Gavilar’s death that we do not yet know (and probably won’t find out until Book 5, Dalinar’s book). I suspect Dalinar remembered something that Gavilar imposed on him that for a long time cut Dalinar off from the spiritual realm and these visions. Some may disagree with this interpretation, believing Dalinar pauses because he remembers that Gavilar is dead. I think my interpretation is supported by the sequence of the “back befores” – the second seeming to come earlier in time than the first as Dalinar’s thoughts are returning to when he was a child. Regardless, the proper interpretation of this snippet doesn’t really affect the overall conclusion. I include it because I believe it is a look forward to what will come out in Dalinar’s book. The second noteworthy aspect is the emphasis on “things being as they should be.” “Should” states an ideal to which to aspire. The spiritual realm is the place of ideals. The paragraph further implies that Dalinar is done playing with swords, wooden or real. This bit foreshadows Dalinar becoming a shardless KR later in the chapter. Now the key passage, how he “knew well” the distant light, that it enveloped him in a “piercing warmth” and did not blind him when he stared at it, that it soaked “into his very self.” The “sun” in the cognitive realm is cold, but this light source embraces Dalinar down to his soul with warmth and comfort. Every aspect of this description reads like a spiritual experience, Moses standing before the burning bush. Further evidence: the surgeon stitching Dalinar’s wound during the climactic battle is amazed that Dalinar can still use his arm after so much scarring from prior wounds. SOMETHING must have supernaturally healed Dalinar over the years. Perhaps it was an incipient bond with the Stormfather, but I think it has more to do with some sort of spiritual bond. My thought is that the light source represents the remnants of Honor in the spiritual realm, just as the Highstorms represent it in the physical realm and the Stormfather represents it in the cognitive realm. Investiture, according to Brandon, exists in all three realms. Perhaps the spiritual realm has infused Dalinar with some limited self-healing power comparable to the resurrecting power of Divine Breath. But such speculation is best explored elsewhere than a post that is already too long.,. What are the implications of a KR with access to the spiritual realm? The epigraph about Melishi the Bondsmith provides some guidance. I’d appreciate hearing what others think on this subject.

My argument is not that "each Order essentially exhibits an improved version of their divine attributes." They just need to exhibit the right attributes - and be "broken" in some way. Kaladin was always protective, Shallan always had artistic ability, Jasnah was always smart, etc. But the bond converts that attribute into a Divine Attribute. As Teft says, the bond enhances what's already there. Kaladin did not have to be an "extraordinary" leader (or extraordinarily honorable) to attract Syl, He just had to be a leader and be honorable. And be broken. The spren don't bond with only the top 1% (at least I hope they're not that elitist). But they must bond with a broken soul. That's the limiting factor - that and the serendipity of the spren finding the right host in the first place, like Syl using the windspren to find Kaladin.