Confused

THE POWERS OF CREATION ARE A FORM OF INVESTITURE. I say this in the OP and my first follow-up post. I repeat it here to clarify any confusion. Stormlight is a form of Investiture. The Dor is a form of Investiture. The mists are a form of Investiture. THE POWERS ARE A FORM OF INVESTITURE. Each form of Investiture is unique. I call the Powers the “Powers” only to distinguish them from the other forms. What are the Powers’ special characteristics? They differ from other forms of Investiture in Realmic location and function. Location: Only in the Spiritual Realm, except for the Dor. (Sel’s Cognitive Realm Dor is still the Powers and behaves like all the other Powers except for its location dependency.) The Shards are “mostly Spiritual.” Function: Other forms of Investiture are unique to their Shardworld. The Powers are “raw” Investiture – they are the same everywhere (except for the Dor). Think of this “raw Investiture” as the cosmere’s magical stem cells: The Powers are undifferentiated Investiture that has not yet become specialized. They can become anything and do anything. That’s why Brandon says “The means of getting powers…are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.” The Powers are the Powers regardless of how a magic user accesses or uses them. Djarskublar, you say “there are no Powers of Creation,” and “Brandon has never said anything about some Powers of Creation.” How then do you explain this WoB (emphasis added): The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms. Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.) So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive. This is one of Brandon’s most important statements about how magic works. The catalytic magic systems like Allomancy use the catalyst to “tap into the powers of creation.” Investiture like the mists is the “condensed ‘essence’ of these godly powers”; the mists are not the Powers themselves. How can you deny the difference between the Powers and Investiture after reading this WoB? Brandon still distinguishes between Investiture and the Powers of Creation. Please look again at the BoM passages I cite in the OP. When Marasi uses the Bands of Mourning, mists come from her. She’s producing the mists because she’s using the Powers. The excess Powers she doesn’t need convert into Investiture – the mists. Yata, you say, “The premise ‘Powers != Investiture’ is pure speculation (more than that because there are references to explicit problems with it) and you need a tons of exception only to make it slightly work and a couple of them are really heavy exceptions.” I understand your words, but not what you’re saying. I’ve heavily documented everything in the theory. Look again at the OP. There are NO EXCEPTIONS to the theory. If the theory is “pure speculation,” then how do YOU interpret the WoB above? That WoB is clear, straightforward, and consistent with everything else Brandon says on the subject and everything in this theory. You say “Feruchemy…allows the user to manipulate the Power of Creation.” Everything I’ve seen says Feruchemy’s Investiture is wholly internal. Where does Brandon say Feruchemy manipulates the Powers? Reference? You also say, “Your model is against the whole post-ascension Sazed's point in HoA's [epigraphs]. ‘For a god, his body and his power are the same’. Translating with our own terms ‘For a god, his Investiture and his Power are the same’.” Note again the quoted WoB: Investiture is the “condensed essence of the godly powers.” I’m not “against” the point of this epigraph; I think my theory supports it. Under Brandon’s “one substance” principle (cited in the OP), a god’s “body and his power” should be “the same.” Both are magical substances that should readily convert into one another. Vin’s use of the mists (Preservation’s “condensed essence”) to fuel her Allomancy shows this interpretation is correct. Naming Conventions I am open to any name to denote the differences between the magic fueled by Investiture alone and the magic fueled by the Powers. Those differences exist and are cosmere-real. If you read these posts carefully and go through each example in the OP and the first follow-up post, you’ll see this is so. After trying other names for “Investiture Magic” and “Creation Magic,” I chose eponymous ones. Apologies for any confusion. Just remember, if a magic system uses a catalyst, it performs Creation Magic. If it doesn’t, it performs Investiture Magic. The Problem with Paradigms – Theory “Validity” vs. Theory “Correctness” If anyone wants me to address other specific points raised, I’ll be happy to do so. I think if you recognize the Powers are a form of Investiture, most of these issues disappear.

Thank you, Bugsy, for your kind words. I agree with you and Dawnshard. Investiture, matter and energy comprise the cosmere and are convertible into one another. The OP says that the Powers of Creation are the source of Investiture, matter and energy, their "raw material." The OP’s linked WoB about the cosmere's "one substance" refers to Brandon's interest in the philosopher Baruch Spinoza. Spinoza believed the universe consists of a single substance that takes different forms. Based on this, I state "Everything created (“Creation”) comes from the Powers," not Investiture. Just wanted to clarify that point. Mati, you are correct. Stormlight heals Kaladin even when he’s unconscious. The healing puts Kaladin back into his self-perceived form, rather than his Spiritual Realm “perfect” form. As Brandon says in your cited WoB, “It’s all about perception,” at least post-Shattering. King Cole, you are also correct: spren are splinters and have sentience. Many, like you, may even have “merry old souls…” Djarskublar, I especially want to thank you for your comments. You’re the only person to address the substance of my post. You’re right – I’ve thought about this stuff for a long time, and it’s gratifying that someone took the time to respond. You believe the proper framework for analyzing magic systems is whether the source of magic is “external” or ‘internal.” Creation Magic systems are easy to spot with that framework. The Powers are always “external.” Magic users consume catalysts to call the Powers from the Spiritual Realm (except for the Dor). But most Investiture Magic systems also use “external” magic. I’m aware of only three Investiture Magic systems – Feruchemy, Breath Transfer and the Returned – that rely on wholly “internal” Investiture. The “internal-external” framework also doesn’t predict how yet unknown magic systems will behave. I believe the “Creation Magic – Investiture Magic” model does. My model looks at the nature of the magical fuel, not its source. Does the magic tap into the Powers? If so, its Creation Magic. Does it instead use only local Investiture? Then its Investiture Magic, whether the Investiture comes from an internal or external source. The Powers can do anything, change anything. Investiture can only change the individual soul that is its object. My model predicts new magic systems that rely solely on Investiture can affect only a person’s soul; and systems that rely on Investiture and the Powers of Creation can affect anything and anyone. I address a few of your other points below: “Of course it uses investiture as the fuel. What else would it use? Chulls?” Not chulls (ha ha) but the Powers. Yes, the Powers are now a form of Investiture, but they differ from other Investiture in Realmic location, consistency and function. “What you call 'Powers' are just Shards.” Adonalsium was the “whole” of the Powers. “Shards” are large pieces of the Powers. Splinters are small pieces of the Powers. Your statement reads “Shards = Powers.” They do not. The statement is like saying an ocean IS water, rather than a very large body of water. “[Burning] metal…isn't, as you put it, using Investiture to Connect with a Shard. You are already Connected.” This comment responds to my statement that “Grafting local Investiture onto a magic user’s soul is the first step to Connect with the Powers.” Notice the “first step” part. In Allomancy (your example), that first step is conception, when a potential Allomancer inherits the Spiritual ability to Connect with Preservation. On Nalthis, everyone is born with Breath – long before they can Awaken or transfer it. On Roshar, spren choose whom to bond with. On Taldain, I believe an Autonomy splinter chooses a host based on the degree of the host’s self-reliance. Khriss says all Selish people are born with some Spiritual Connection to the Dor. These attachments of Investiture to mortal souls are the “first steps” of creating magic users. Not every potential magic user becomes an actual one. Your quoted statement is both true and untrue. Metal is not Investiture. Metals are Preservation’s “concentrated essence, providing a pathway to power.” (BoM, Kindle p. 359). As you say, burning metals “isn’t using Investiture to Connect with a Shard.” But the Allomancer is NOT “already Connected.” An Allomancer’s “innate Investiture” grants the capacity to Connect to Preservation through metals, but does not itself create the Connection. Burning metals creates the temporary Connection. “Splinters” I’m not sure what’s a “bit off” here. I can agree with your main point – that the capacity to direct magic is proportional to the amount of Investiture – but only if the Investiture is the Powers. Your statement is true of spren and Shards, which are composed (mostly) of the Powers. It’s not true of any other form of Investiture than the Powers. The Pits of Hathsin held a lot of atium – Ruin’s Investiture – but none of it developed sentience because atium is not composed of the Powers. Susebron bonded 50,000+ Breaths – fragments of Endowment’s Investiture – but the Breaths didn’t become independently sentient. Roshar’s spren show that the Powers can become sentient independent of the host they’re bonded to. Response to Your Comments on Specific Examples Breath Transfer – The OP states “Investiture Magic works with or without direction to change, repair and improve the Spiritual DNA of a soul and its corresponding aspects.” The ability to command Investiture to change a soul does not make it Creation Magic. The ability to command the Powers – and create anything – does. The Returned – I’m uncertain of your point here. We agree the Returned benefit from their Divine Breath. We also agree their magic comes from transfer of their Divine Breath. Their magic, as you point out, only affects the healed person who receives the Divine Breath – the “object” of the magic. The Returned do not touch the Powers of Creation when they perform this magic. This is Investiture Magic, not Creation Magic. The Mists – Yes, the mists act as fuel for Vin’s Creation Magic, but that’s not the mist’s main function. “Snapping” widens the cracks in an Allomancer’s soul, which allows more Investiture in. This additional Investiture enables the Allomancer to burn metals and Connect with Preservation. Without that additional Investiture, the potential Allomancer, despite his or her innate Investiture, never becomes an actual Allomancer. Snapping is an example of Investiture Magic – changing a mortal’s soul. Hemalurgy – I don’t consider Ruin-style Hemalurgy a magic system at all. It’s a mechanical means by which a pain-glorified, cosmere-savvy “staple gun” can transfer attributes. My list of magic systems wasn’t intended to be exhaustive. I do believe there are other less violent hemalurgic systems based on other Shards’ magic. Hemalurgy in such forms is Investiture Magic, since these systems don’t touch the Powers and only affect the target’s soul. ChayShan – YOU say ChayShan uses “internal” Investiture, not me. I think ChayShan pulls Sel’s ground-based Investiture into the magic user (to be discussed in my next theory post.) We know Sel’s Creation Magic is location-dependent, but a magic user can perform Investiture Magic anywhere on Sel. Creation Magic involves Connection – the relationship between a mortal and the Powers that, on Sel, grows weaker with distance. Investiture Magic involves “Identity” – the relationship that keys a mortal to his or her native planet’s Investiture. Why can Shuden perform ChayShan in Arelon, far from his ancestral home in JinDo? Because his magic relies solely on Sel’s Investiture and doesn’t have to Connect with the Cognitive Realm Powers. There’s no other way to explain this. Forton’s Potion – You speculate Forton Invested his potion in Hrovell, but it took effect in Arelon. I agree. That’s why the potion must be Investiture Magic. Creation Magic doesn’t work the way you describe. A Creation Magic user consumes a catalyst, touches the Powers and directs their magical effect. End of magical transaction. There’s also the problem of Sel’s location-dependency. If Forton did use the Powers in Hrovell, that’s where they are most strongly Connected. But the magic can’t take effect in Arelon unless the Connection to the Powers is made there, not Hrovell. Hrovell is farther from Elantris than Elantris is from Teod. Finally, Forton’s potion works exactly as my theory predicts. His magic only affects the soul that is its object – Hrathen’s or Sarene’s – to make them look like Hoed Elantrians. Again, thank you all for your comments. Regards!

This WoB suggests Rayse had multiple motives for killing Shards. (Source.) Argent: So, did Rayse choose those Shards [to splinter] because - Brandon Sanderson: He went after Ambition first, but didn’t find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list. Argent: Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel, or the person? Brandon Sanderson: In this case it was the Shard primarily. He was afraid that this was a Shard that would rival him. But he then got trapped in the Rosharan system. “In this case”? Did Odium have other motives than Shard “rivalry” in other cases? I speculate that Rayse detoured from Ambition to kill his parents Aona and Skai. I characterize Devotion and Dominion’s Mandates (Intents) as “Love” and “Control.” That strikes me as a typical “parenting” combo – one parent keeps the kids under control while the other nurtures and loves them unconditionally. I believe Brandon intended this parenting combination. Devotion and Dominion had a pre-Shattering relationship and came to Sel together. Devotion’s love wanted to grant mortals the gift of magic. Dominion agreed, but only under tight controls. Hence, Sel’s “programmatic” form-based magic. It’s understandable why Odium sought Ambition first. It’s understandable why he later sought Honor, his magical antithesis. (Honor binds; Odium severs.) But why Devotion? Dominion maybe, but both of them? And so early in his killing spree? What kind of threat could they pose to chase them down first? Compared to his other killings, Odium murdered Skai and Aona in a particularly vicious way. It was personal. Odium wasn’t content to just kill them. He stomped on their souls and stuffed them into the Cognitive Realm. It’s the Shardic equivalent of cutting up your victim and hiding the pieces in the basement. Hoid in the First Letter describes Rayse as “among the most loathsome, crafty and dangerous individuals I had ever met.” That makes you wonder what the criteria were for participating in the Shattering.

This theory presents my views only. Assume every sentence and paragraph is preceded by an “IMO.” Summary 1. Brandon alternately describes Spiritual Realm Investiture that isn’t part of a Spiritweb as “power,” “raw power,” “the godly powers,” the “powers of creation” (my favorite, for its descriptiveness), “true Investiture,” a “Shard’s energy,” and a Shard’s “energy of being,” In my posts, I call this substance the “Powers.” 2. Each form of Cognitive and Physical Realm Investiture is unique to its Shardworld. This “Unique Investiture” differs from every other form of Unique Investiture and from the Spiritual Realm Powers. The Investiture that composes Spiritwebs (what I call “Spiritweb Investiture”) likewise differs from the Powers. 3. Some magic systems use “catalysts” to touch the Spiritual Realm Powers. These catalytic magic systems perform what I call “Creation Magic” – they can form or change any cosmere Spiritweb to achieve spectacular magical effects. Such systems use both local Unique Investiture and the Spiritual Realm Powers as fuel for their magic. Surgebinding and Awakening are examples, 4. Other magic systems use Unique Investiture as their sole fuel. Unlike Creation Magic, which can do anything, “Unique investiture Magic” only affects the soul the Unique Investiture Invests. Feruchemy is an example of Unique Investiture Magic. What are the Powers? The Powers were originally “Adonalsium” and are now his Spiritual Realm corpse broken into the 16 Shards that Invested the Vessels. The Powers embody the capacity to “create” – to form or change any Spiritweb by converting into new matter, energy or Unique Investiture. They simultaneously are the raw material from which the cosmere is formed. Everything created (“Creation”) comes from the Powers. Brandon says the cosmere is one substance. Wax notices this in BoM (Kindle, p. 370, emphasis in original): “They’re all the same. Metals, minds, men, all the same substance…” Brandon says Wax sees “the cosmere-equivalent of atoms/investiture/energy waves all being the same thing.” Marasi likewise observes “There were no people or objects, just energy coalesced.” (BoM, Kindle p. 359.) Brandon says the Powers are not inherently sentient or sapient. What Is Unique Investiture? “Investiture” is Brandon’s “word for someone or something which has gained a portion of the magic of Adonalsium.” If the Powers comprise a potential reality, able to change anything, then Unique Investiture is the magical component of the Cognitive and Physical Realm reality the Powers create – the “Condensed ‘essence’ of these godly powers.” All Cognitive and Physical Realm Investiture is Unique Investiture, found only on its Shardworld. Stormlight, Breaths, the Dor, and the mists are examples of Unique Investiture, as are spren, Divine Breath, Aons and lerasium. Differences Between the Powers and Unique Investiture 1. Realmic Location. a. The Powers exist only in the Spiritual Realm (except for the Dor, which began there but is now a “hybrid” Investiture capable of performing Creation Magic from its Cognitive Realm location). The Shards are “mostly Spiritual” because of the Powers. Except for the Dor, location is irrelevant to the use of the Powers – an Allomancer can Connect with Preservation on Roshar. b. Unique Investiture exists in all three Realms. Investiture is the cosmere’s “building block” and “transcends” the Realms. Unlike the Powers, Unique Investiture is part of the Spiritual DNA of its Shardworld's soul. Location is very relevant for Unique Investiture. Non-natives of a Shardworld must “hack” the local Unique Investiture to use it (except for Breaths, which “key” into their holder’s Identity). 2. Types of Magic. a. The Powers perform Creation Magic – the ability to make new realities through the introduction of matter, energy and/or Unique Investiture. The Powers are remnants of godhood and can form or change any Spiritweb and its corresponding Physical and Cognitive Realm aspects. “People with magic” can direct the Powers. Windrunners bring new energy into Creation to change gravity’s vector. Forgers like Shai bring new Investiture into Creation to change a soul and remake Connections. When Marasi uses the Powers in BoM, “mist” begins “spinning around her” – coming from her. [BoM, Kindle p. 360.] Wax exits the underground temple “trailing mist.” [BoM, Kindle p. 368.] When he holds up the Bands, “winds, snows, and eventually traces of mist” swirl around him. [BoM, Kindle p. 379.] Marasi and Wax each use the Bands to draw massive amounts of the Powers – more than they need for their Allomancy. The excess Powers convert themselves into new energy (the “winds”), matter (the “snows”) and Unique Investiture (“traces of mist”). Marasi and Wax each acknowledge they held the “[‘very’] powers of creation [‘themselves’].” [BoM, Kindle pp. 379, 369.] b. Unique Investiture is part of a planet’s “physics,” the planet’s “nature.” Unique Investiture Magic works with or without direction to change, repair or improve the person the Unique Investiture Invests. Unique Investiture Magic includes self-healing; heightened health, strength, speed, senses and acuity; and magical snapping and bonding. Mortals cannot command Unique Investiture Magic to change any Spiritweb other than their own soul. Mortals can use Unique Investiture to redistribute their existing Realmic attributes, like Feruchemy and ChayShan do, but they can’t create new attributes. There are two kinds of Unique Investiture Magic: (i) Adonalsium’s “ambient” magic, and (ii) post-Shattering Mandated Investiture Magic. c. Unique Investiture directly fuels Unique Investiture Magic. Creation Magic uses Unique Investiture to Connect with the Powers. Attaching Unique Investiture to a magic user’s soul is the first step in Creation Magic. This can occur at conception (Allomancy), birth or conception (Awakening) or by attracting a temperamentally-aligned spren (Surgebinding). “The means of getting powers…are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.” 3. Splinters. The Powers can splinter and develop sentience. Unique Investiture can’t splinter or develop sentience. Fragments of Unique Investiture (like atium geodes and Breaths) lack self-awareness and can’t by themselves create. 4. Direction. The Powers need a mind to direct them or will become self-directing. The Powers roil until directed – Brandon says, “raw power is dangerous.” Unique Investiture does not always need direction. Examples on Each Shardworld I count seven known cosmere magic systems that use the Powers to perform Creation Magic: Nalthis: Awakening. Roshar: Surgebinding, Fabrials and Voidbinding (maybe). Sel: The “one magic” system that’s been balkanized. Scadrial: Allomancy. Taldain: Sand Mastery. Following are examples of Unique Investiture Magic on each Shardworld: First of the Sun: Aviar form Cognitive bonds with chosen human companions. The humans cannot direct the Aviar to choose them and never touch the Powers. The Aviar extend these bonds to enfold their companions in the Aviar’s protective Cognitive shield. Nalthis: The Heightenings improve and perfect mortal attributes like senses and health without direction of or Connection to the Powers. “Breath Transfer” is also Unique Investiture Magic – Breathholders move quanta of their innate Investiture to other people, who “heighten” as a result. (Awakening, unlike simple Breath Transfer, performs Creation Magic. An Awakener drains color to Connect to the Powers, enabling the Breathholder to animate – “Awaken” – objects.) The Returned are like the Nightwatcher – they grant others a single boon, to heal them. This Unique Investiture Magic works by the Returned transferring its Divine Breath – with its Fifth Heightening healing power – “to heal someone else’s Breath that is weakening and dying.” Roshar: The Nightwatcher’s Old Magic changes mortal attributes. The mortal beneficiaries don’t touch the Powers and can’t direct what the Nightwatcher will do: Baxil says she gives the boon seeker what he deserves, not what he asks for. Stormlight augments Kaladin’s speed and strength even when he’s not Surgebinding and heals him without direction. Spren symbiosis with native lifeforms is an example of pre-Shattering “ambient” Unique Investiture Magic. Scadrial: The mists cause potential Allomancers to “snap” – to widen their latent Connection to Preservation. Feruchemy is the oldest of Scadrial’s magics. (HoA, Chapter 34 Epigraph.) Even Hemalurgy came before modern Allomancy. Feruchemists hold genetically innate Investiture, half from Preservation and half from Ruin. Feruchemists don’t touch the Powers unless they’re Twinborn – Allomancy does use Creation Magic. Feruchemists can’t create attributes; they can only redistribute existing attributes. Sel: Shuden’s ChayShan resembles Feruchemy – ChayShan focuses Shuden’s internal energy and strength onto the point of impact with the Dakhor monk. Shuden’s family is from JinDo, on the other side of Duladen from Arelon. If ChayShan were location-based Creation Magic, Shuden couldn’t use ChayShan in Arelon. For the same reason, I suspect Forton’s potion is also Unique Investiture Magic – Hrovell is far from Arelon, yet Forton’s potion (made in Hrovell) works effectively in Arelon to temporarily change the appearance of its target. Taldain: Dayside’s undirected growth of watered microflora is Unique Investiture Magic. “Certain people can control [the microflora’s] reaction” using their body water to touch the Powers, but the undirected growth is Unique Investiture Magic. (AU, Kindle p. 369.) Because Autonomy’s Unique Investiture doesn’t “beat down” on Darkside, Darkside’s magic probably is Adonalsium’s “ambient” Unique Investiture Magic. Threnody: Khriss concludes “some measure of Investiture must have existed on this planet before the battle between Shards.” [AU, Kindle p. 417, emphasis added.] She doesn’t speculate on the planet’s pre-Shard Unique Investiture Magic. * * * * * * This post is the first in a series on cosmere magic. I had written a much longer theory, but it became unwieldy. I’m chopping it into more manageable pieces for periodic postings. I want to thank @WeiryWriter, @Kurkistan, @Argent, @Yata, @Spoolofwhool and @Blightsong for reading drafts of the longer theory and helping me clean up mistakes. Their comments also sharpened the theory’s focus and presentation. None of them completely agree with me….

Speaking of misreading…I did NOT say “removing your Identity changes your Connections.” I said that to be able to change your Connections to a place, you must FIRST blank your Identity. Blanking your Identity strips you of your pre-existing Connections to a place (the implication I read into Brandon’s statement). Once that is done, you must still “program” your blank Identity by “tapping” the new Connection to a different place. FYI, the word is "donor," not "donator." Yes, that’s true of Spren – and completely beside the point. Breath is the only “self-regulating” Investiture when it comes to Identity. Brandon says Breath can be transferred to anyone – and used by them – regardless of where they come from because Breath will conform to that person’s Identity. I believe that is unique among Investitures. Please look at my first post, just above Yata’s. I originally thought like you – that Identity represents each person’s unique SpiritWeb – a “serial number of your soul” as you say. Yata had some good objections to that idea. My second post – the one you’re responding to – presented a changed idea. I think Identity is what makes a person capable of doing magic on his or her home Shardworld. It is not the totality of what makes them unique. Identity is the critical element in “hacking” magic systems. It would be much harder to do so if you had to hide or change everything that makes you “you.” Anyway, just some thoughts. Feel free to disagree. Just make sure you’re disagreeing to something I actually wrote. Regards!

Yata, you make some excellent points. I looked at some WoBs on “Identity” and came up with the ones quoted below. Based on these, I now think Identity means the following: Identity is the relationship between a person, a Shardworld and Investiture that enables the person to perform magic on that Shardworld. It is primarily a function of a Soul’s Spiritual DNA, but the Soul’s Connections to the Shardworld and its Investiture play a major role. I first quote some relevant WoBs and then discuss them below to show how I reached my conclusion. (Source. I added all the emphases.) Q 34: People born on Scadrial have an Identity tied to it and its magic. Odium would have to do certain things to make them able to use a magic he fuels. He has done these things on Roshar… Q 43: If a Feruchemist using an aluminum metalmind stored their identity to zero, then filled a coppermind with all of their knowledge, would another Feruchemist with an identity set to zero be able to access the first Feruchemist's coppermind? Brandon Sanderson: [Paraphrased] I'm not going to tell you a definite yes or no, this is something that needs to be saved for future books, but you are thinking along the correct lines about how identity works regarding Feruchemists. Q 47: Argent: Would a parshman who received multiple breaths, or any other type of investiture, be able to gain sentience or become more like listener – Kind of like mistwraith/kandra? Brandon Sanderson: That would require some Identity changes and transformations. Argent: So it’s not just a dump of – Brandon Sanderson: It’s not just a dump. It’s a biological thing for them, they’ve adapted. So they’ve evolved to the point where this sort of thing – It would be like trying to power DC with AC current or the wrong voltage or something like that… Q 51: If you tapped blank Identity in an area, would you develop the area's accent? Brandon Sanderson: It's part of what you need. You need to both blank your Identity and tap Connection to get the accent. Footnote: Note: Sanderson interpreted this question as blanking identity. Also, I don't think tapping blank identity is a thing, so it was not a great question. Q 54: Could somebody give Breath – could they still get the benefits – Brandon Sanderson: Oh, good question. Yes you can, actually. Breath, once it is given to you, it is being keyed to you - your Identity. So that transfer makes it yours to use however you want. Question: So you could Awaken? Brandon Sanderson: You could Awaken. If you were to somehow make it there, you would be able to Awaken. It’s the easiest of magics to get the magic from, and then to manipulate. Because it has keyed into it Identity. We also have this from the recent Chicago signing: Because it’s stuck in the Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual Realm (the Spiritual Realm is location-independent; Cognitive Realm is location-dependent), it makes the magic on Sel only work in close proximity to what is keyed through there to the location they’re keyed to. This has to do with Identity and Connection - mostly Connection. Source Q 30. Discussion: 1. As you say, Yata, Identity IS mostly a function of a person’s Soul, but not entirely. Brandon’s answers in Questions 34, 47 and 54 suggest the Connections between the Shardworld, its inhabitants, and its Investiture are also critical components. These are the components that determine whether a person can perform magic on that Shardworld. Without these Connections, a person must hack the system to perform magic. These components of Identity do not change with time, unlike other attributes. A species’ Spiritual DNA “evolves” and “adapts” to make these critical Connections and develop Identity. In Question 54, Brandon says that happened with Roshar’s Parshmen. This “magical” evolution resembles earth’s biological evolution – environmental factors lead to genetic changes over time, incorporating Connections into the Soul's Spiritual DNA.. 2. Brandon’s answer to Question 51 shows the relationship between Identity and Connection. To Connect with a location’s attributes (in this case accent), a person first has to wipe out their Identity. Brandon’s answer makes this point even if “tapping blank identity is [not] a thing.” Brandon’s answer implies that blanking Identity strips a person of his Connection with place. His comment on the Dor agrees. The Investiture in Sel’s Cognitive Realm has a one-to-one correspondence with places in its Physical Realm. Yet Brandon views this correspondence as more one of Connection than of Identity. Presumably that’s because a Selian’s Identity already recognizes the Dor as the “keyed” Investiture. The Selian’s relationship with place on Sel is one of birth, “bloodlines” and, hence, Connection. 3. Brandon limited his response in Question 43 to “how identity works regarding Feruchemists.” Feruchemy relies exclusively on Internal Connections to make changes in a person’s attributes. Brandon says the power “source” for Feruchemy is “internal,” unlike Allomancy. He didn’t answer the question, but his response does suggest that Identity for Feruchemists/Ferrings (and by extension other “net neutral” systems based entirely on Internal Connections) may not work the same as Identity in externally based systems. 4. Question 54 shows how Breath conforms itself to the Identity of the Soul it is attached to. Breath is apparently the only self-regulating form of Shard Investiture.

I thought I'd try to return this thread to Blightsong's topic - how Connections and Identity work in the Spiritual Realm. The following discussion comes from a theory I've been working on about Cosmere magic: The Spiritual Realm uniqueness of any lifeform or object inheres in its SpiritWeb. A SpiritWeb consists of a Soul or Essence (an object’s “soul,” according to Shai) with unique Spiritual DNA and unique Connections. Connections bind the Cosmere together – not only between Souls and Essences (“External Connections”), but also between the three Realmatic aspects of each Soul or Essence (“Internal Connections”). Example: Kelsier could not return to Scadrial’s Physical Realm because his death severed his Internal Connections to that Realm. (i) Internal Connections maintain mind-body-Spirit unity. They “vertically” link the Realmatic aspects of each attribute of a lifeform or object. The Feruchemy sections of recent Ars Arcana list many such attributes. Each attribute has an analog in all three Realms. (ii) External Connections “horizontally” link a Soul or Essence to other Souls or Essences. These Connections can extend between people, between objects, between a person and a planet, a person and other objects, and a person and Investiture. Brandon’s concept of “Identity” refers to each person’s unique SpiritWeb - their unique Spiritual DNA and their unique grid of Internal and External Connections. Connections link to different Spiritual “genes” of an entity’s Spiritual DNA. Example: A planet’s Essence includes as Spiritual “genes” each location on that planet. When Allik in BoM uses his medallion, he Connects his Soul to a different “Spiritual gene” of Scadrial’s Essence – a different location on Scadrial. Allik retains his accent because his Soul knows he is of Malwish descent, his own “Spiritual gene.” Brandon says Connections are not “on/off” switches. They can widen or narrow over time. * * * * * * * I hope that helps your theorizing, Blightsong.

All interesting stuff! Pagerunner on the other “Cosmere map” thread points out the map itself is cracked, but the stars and lines on it are not. That suggests the latter were superimposed on prior artwork. IOW the “symbolism” predates the actual map. Silverlight “philosophers” “imagined” the star map based on the Cosmere’s story line. The central element of the map is the apparent combat between the Rosharan warrior and the serpent/dragon at the Scar. It is the only element that involves two symbols. No other pair of symbols seem to relate to one another so directly. And the serpent has SIXTEEN RED-RIMMED STARS on it. This may have to do with the Shattering or it may be an example of the Cosmere-importance of the number 16 (Leras), or it may be nothing at all (unlikely). There are four other red-rimmed stars on the map. Three of those are between the sword and the serpent’s mouth. The fourth is in the Threnody constellation, the only red-rimmed star not close to the serpent. I earlier suggested the serpent may symbolize Odium. The “void” he seeks creates a vacuum that pulls matter to it. Perhaps the red-rimmed stars symbolize “red shift” – stars moving away from the observer make the light’s wavelength longer and redder. But what to make of the Threnody constellation's red-rimmed star? Again, all interesting stuff…

Some quick thoughts. Apologies if I’m simply re-raising ideas others first raised on other threads – I haven’t read through those threads, so this is all new to me. 1. The map is two-dimensional, though space has, well, space – three dimensions. Because of the “parallax view,” it’s difficult to know where these constellations actually are in relation to one another. 2. Enlarging the map shows numerous cracks running through it. The map appears to be an old mural or oil painting (in human terms), perhaps painted on or hanging from a Silverlight wall. Yet because First of the Sun is included, this map must be fairly recent in Cosmere terms. 3. The hair of the two women each blows toward “The Scar.” That suggests that the Scar is a hole in the space-time continuum. I doubt I’m the first to suggest the serpent represents Odium, especially since the Rosharan warrior challenges it. IMO Odium’s magic severs Connections – that’s why he is associated with the “Void” – what’s left after all Connections sever. The idea that the Scar is an incipient Void Odium created that draws matter, energy and Investiture towards it makes sense to me. 4. Taldain’s tree is barren. To me it reflects Autonomy’s Mandate (Intent) – a remote “survivor” struggling to get by in an unforgiving Cosmere. The more interesting question: what is the object encircled by the tree’s roots? That object looks like a log or tree trunk. The imagery suggests Taldain draws life from other objects like a parasite. Taldain is also the brightest star on the map – perhaps because it has the most Investiture? 5. The inclusion of Scadrial in the Nalthis constellation gives credence to the view that the brothers Trell and Nalthis are/were also involved with Scadrial. Thanks, Argent, for beginning this thread and drawing my attention to the map!

Brandon says Worldhoppers undergo some form of "time dilation" that slows down their aging. Speculation: Though Worldhoppers travel through the Cognitive Realm, maybe they still benefit from time's relativity. There are Physical Realm distances between planets, and the Cosmere's physical "laws" are our own, plus magic. It takes Demoux a short time to travel from Scadrial to Roshar through the CR, but the planets may be light years distant. Demoux would have been long dead had he remained on Scadrial. Think Planet of the Apes, except that the space travel was through the CR, not space itself. Does this explanation make sense?

Your posts make me think I’ve been unclear. There IS magic on certain planets in the Cosmere – that’s indisputable. My only question is “who put it there?” Khriss assumes it all comes from the Shards. The OP questions that assumption. If Stormlight started as Adonalsium Investiture, why not the Dor? Why not Taldain’s or Nalthis’ Investiture? I agree and accept that the Shards ALSO Invested on Major Shardworlds (by definition). I suggest, however, that Adonalsium’s Investiture – the Investiture that fuels Ambient Magic – may have been there first and may underlie the Shard-built magic systems. If I understand you all, you have two main objections to that thought: (1) The Shards now hold all of Adonalsium’s Investiture; and (2) Adonalsium’s Investiture wouldn’t be located on any planet. I anticipated the first objection in the OP’s paragraph “A.” I distinguish unused Investiture in the Spiritual Realm (that is now connected to the Shards) from Investiture Adonalsium already used, already Invested in the Cosmere. My OP only addresses magic like Stormlight, the Dor, etc., that’s already associated with a planet. Can we all agree with the following premises? Investiture is the magical substance in the Cosmere. Investiture can be converted into matter and energy and other Investiture. Magic is “natural” in the Cosmere and augments our own universal “laws.” From these premises, I argue that Adonalsium left more than just matter and energy on planets. On certain planets (at least), he left this “magical substance” – Investiture – that the local lifeforms could use as part of their ecosystem. It’s “natural” like fire, rain and wind. This Investiture is built into that planet’s “Essence” (which Shai describes as an object’s “soul”). This Investiture IS located on a planet because it’s already been Invested there, the Investiture is no longer exclusively in the Spiritual Realm. I hope that clarifies – I just want to raise the possibility that not all planetary magic comes from the Shards. And that raises further possibilities about the nature and structure of magic systems. @Yata: Brandon says “people” were on Roshar before the Shattering. Humans were not. Human migration began after Honor and Cultivation arrived there. Brandon defines “people” as any sapient species. Listeners qualify as “people,” and they lived on Roshar pre-Shattering. I also don’t see any contradiction between my OP paragraphs 4 and 5 – highstorms are a “natural” feature of Roshar that always brought Stormlight even before the Shards Invested in that planet. Finally, I agree with your WoB, but it doesn’t make your point. The questioner asked if it was possible for a “gold/gold Twinborn” to “grow the spren and actually be a Surgebinder.” Surgebinding requires a bond with a Radiantspren. Adonalsium did NOT create Radiantspren; Honor and Cultivation’s Investiture did, as you state. (I think the spren themselves actually created Radiantspren, using H & C’s Investiture, since Honor tells Dalinar that he was “surprised” the spren had “imitated” what he did with Honorblades.) Regardless of whose Investiture creates spren, the WoB does NOT address whose Investiture composes Stormlight. @SpoolofWhool, in the entire AU, Khriss mentions Adonalsium exactly three times – twice when she describes “Shards of Adonalsium” and again in her conversation with Kelsier in M:SH. Other than having been the “God” that the Shards’ Vessels Shattered, she does not credit Adonalsium with anything in any of her essays and presumes that Shardworld magic comes from the Shards. * * * * * * * A REQUEST: I’ve asked some of you to review the summary of my draft theory about Cosmere magic. Your review has already sparked several changes. If others would like to see that draft post, please let me know. I’ll create a group PM for us to discuss it together and will acknowledge you by name when I go public. Thanks in advance!

I recently posted that the Dor is Adonalsium’s Investiture, changed by Dominion and Devotion only as necessary to create Sel’s magic systems. Responders cited the prepublication AU Selish essay in rebuttal. Khriss states that Devotion and Dominion’s Investiture alone constitutes the Dor. Here’s my question for this thread: If Khriss is right, and Shardworld Investiture comes solely from the Shards, then where is Adonalsium’s Investiture? He created the Cosmere – where did his Investiture go? Contrary to Khriss, I believe MOST Investiture in the Cosmere comes from Adonalsium. Except for Scadrial, a Shard-created planet, Shards piggy-backed on Adonalsium’s Investiture to make their magic systems. I’m working through a major unpublished theory, and this is a key component. In view of AU, I thought I’d throw this discussion open for advice and input. Where do YOU think Adonalsium’s Investiture went? Here are my thoughts: 1. Brandon says the Cosmere is identical to our universe’s physics, except for its magical component. He says that magic is PART of the Cosmere’s “physics.” 2. Brandon says that Adonalsium left “Ambient Magic” on Shardworlds – magic that is part of the “natural ecosystem” but that mortals cannot command. To me, “natural” means that Adonalsium created the ecosystem including its magic. By definition, anything Adonalsium created is “natural,” since nothing existed before he created it. 3. There are two known examples of Ambient Magic: First of the Sun and pre-human Roshar. First of the Sun’s magic stems from the Patje Shardpool, which Invests worms eaten by the Aviar that give the Aviar their magical abilities. The Aviar bond to specific mortals, like Sixth of the Dusk, and grant those mortals certain cognitive abilities. These mortals cannot command the magic to do anything. 4. Pre-human Roshar life was dominated by animals (and plants?) engaged in various symbiotic relationships with spren. Brandon describes how “natural” it is for spren to bond with listeners, and we see spren supporting greatshells, skyeels and other fauna. Listeners transform during highstorms, the bringers of Stormlight, and WoR suggests greatshells do as well. 5. Highstorms were originally “meteorological events” and were “later Invested.” I interpret this “later Investment” as coming from the Shards. I believe highstorms always produced Stormlight, since that was “natural” to Roshar. Without Stormlight, spren symbiosis would likely have been impossible. The listeners’ “Rider of Storms” predates human migration to Roshar. 6. If Stormlight is a natural part of Roshar’s ecology – part of Roshar’s Ambient Magic – then Stormlight must be Adonalsium Investiture. Otherwise, we’d have to conclude that the Shards created Roshar’s spren-based Ambient Magic. With all the Adonalsium spren on Roshar, that seems unlikely. [My unpublished theory concludes that Honor and Cultivation’s Investment created Radiantspren and made spren bondable to humans and stand-alone gemstones (that is, gemstones not part of “living” gemhearts). Spren in their “natural” state could only bond with native lifeforms. Shard Investment thus created the Surgebinding and fabrial magic systems.] 7. If Stormlight is Adonalsium Investiture and fuels Roshar’s Ambient Magic, why don’t we see similar things on other Shardworlds? I think we do; hence, my “The Dor is Adonalsium’s Investiture” post. I suggest the Shards picked the planets they did to Invest because Adonalsium had left more Investiture on those planets than others. That made it easier for the Shards to create their magic systems. [I’m leaving Scadrial out of this discussion, since it is a Shard-created planet. I do address it in my theory.] 8. Khriss is an arcanist, a “magical scientist.” Scientists make mistakes. I think Khriss over-values the role of the Shards and undervalues Adonalsium’s role in creating Cosmere magic. Brandon hints this may be so: “I’ve begun to wonder if something greater is happening on Sel than we…have guessed. Something with origins lost in time.” (AU Kindle, p. 17.) 9. Khriss also doesn’t know how the Patje Shardpool came to be on First of the Sun. To me, this in particular highlights her blind spot about Adonalsium’s Investiture. If you agree with Khriss, please answer this thread’s question: where is Adonalsium’s Investiture? We know for sure it’s on Roshar…where did the rest of it go? Possible counterarguments: A. “Adonalsium’s Investiture is still in the Spiritual Realm and is now controlled by the Shards.” That’s true, but it doesn’t fully answer the question. My question is what happened to Investiture Adonalsium ALREADY INVESTED on Shardworlds before he Shattered. Investiture exists in all three Realms, just like everything else. Stormlight, for example, exists in the Physical Realm in gaseous form; exists in the Cognitive Realm as collectively perceived by Roshar’s inhabitants; and exists in Roshar’s Spiritual DNA, part of the planet’s SpiritWeb. It is the Ambient Magic Adonalsium built in to the planet, the Investiture he already Invested in that planet. B. “Adonalsium’s Investiture was left in small amounts on many, many planets. He didn’t Invest any one or more planets with enough magic to create a magic system.” This argument has merit, except for the contrary example of Roshar. Adonalsium Invested A LOT of Stormlight, enough to sustain the entire planet’s flourishing ecosystem. If it happened once, it happened more than once. C. A corollary to this argument is that Adonalsium mostly Invested in the Cosmere’s matter and energy. He Invested little or nothing in Investiture, as Khriss’ “Drominad System” essay suggests. Again I pose Roshar as contrary evidence. What do you think? Where is Adonalsium’s Investiture?

Brandon says that Adonalsium left only “Ambient Magic” on each Shardworld – magic that is part of the natural ecosystem but cannot be commanded by mortals. The magic of First of the Sun in Sixth of the Dusk and the pre-human Rosharan ecosystem are examples. I propose that the Dor is the Investiture Adonalsium left on Sel and that it fuels all of Sel’s pre-Shattering Ambient Magic. Devotion and Dominion later made changes to the Dor to allow mortals to command it. Adonalsium placed the Dor into Sel’s ground and thereby created Sel’s “location-based” magic – different Ambient Magic in different Physical Realm locations. Evidence of the Dor’s ground location: (i) Uncontrolled Dor caused the chasm explosion; (ii) Arelenes use the phrase “Domi below”; and (iii) when Raoden finished the “chasm line,” the Dor “exploded from the ground.” Here’s how I think the Dor worked before Devotion and Dominion showed up: 1. The Dor forges a Connection between the lifeforms of a place and the place itself. Each location’s magical “nutrients” leach into the location’s soil and become part of the food chain. Every local lifeform absorbs this Investiture. 2. The Connection between person and place resembles the bond between Splinter and Magic User. The stronger the bond, the more effective the magic usage. Distance is one factor in the Connection’s strength. Brandon says “bloodlines” is another. Children of parents from two different places may have a weaker Connection to a parent’s home territory than the parent, even if the child currently lives there 3. Sel seems an exercise in “speciation,” the evolutionary process by which isolated biological populations evolve into separate species. On Sel, the evolutionary differences are magical. We don’t know how or why these magical populations were initially isolated. Perhaps Sel is veined with aluminum. I previously thought Sel’s location-based magic results from the Shards’ Splintering. I now think location-based Ambient Magic predates the Splintering. Brandon says his “hard-core fans” are not “thinking right” about Sel’s location-based magic. I believe he means we think too much about the Shards’ influence and not enough about Adonalsium’s. That conclusion probably applies to all magic systems, except for Scadrial’s, the only planet created by Shards.

Jondesu, please look at the very end of this post. I quote the specific WoB you reference (originally quoted by Blightsong) and suggest people read too much into that quote. IMO Brandon means that a Shard's magic can be used to perform acts outside the scope of the Shard's Mandate. For example, Ruin's magic does more than just destroy things; burning atium can provide future sight. If this WoB were literally true, then all Magic systems on a single planet with multiple Shards would be identical to one another, with identical magical effects. Scadrial and Roshar both show this is not true. As I try to explain in the post you respond to, there is no difference among Shards other than their Mandates. Shards all use Adonalsium's power to effect magic. Only their Mandates - which didn't exist when Adonalsium himself wielded the power - distinguish one Shard from another. I agree that magic results from the "interaction between the Shard and the planet." Later WoB than the one you reference states this. There's no way to square those WoB unless the earlier one means what I suggest, that Mandates don't preclude a Shard from performing magic outside its "role/personality." Blightsong, Minor Shardworlds (i.e., Shardworlds without a resident Shard) have ambient magic because Adonalsium made them that way. Brandon has said this. For that reason, the ambient magic of Minor Shardworlds is Mandate-free. I don't think that relates to the WoB we're discussing. What is a "true ideal"? Shai makes clear that Spiritual Realm ideals form from human perceptions: “‘These things exist beyond us…We think about windows, we know about windows; what is and isn’t a window takes on…meaning in the Spiritual Realm. Takes on life, after a fashion.’” TES, Kindle, p. 75, (emphasis added; ellipsis in original). Only when human interactions and perceptions form a consensus about what a window is does a Spiritual Realm window "ideal" take shape, "takes on life." This would be true of newly-invented objects as well as new ideas and thoughts. As quickly as human thought consensus changes, so do the Spiritual Realm ideals representing that thought. Does "honor" mean the same thing to us as it might have to a medieval knight? Does "honor" mean the same thing to people from Japan, Saudi Arabia and Brazil? Think how often earthly "godspren" would change over our millenia, from polytheistic to monothestic. How could civilizations and culture change if "the ideals of the spiritual realm harbor the true and absolute existence of all things, separate from what humans think or label them as"? Did a window ideal exist before the window was invented? Scadrial must have an ideal form of gun, since guns now exist there. Roshar doesn't. (And please don't mention Jasnah's bandolier...) I just think you have too static a view of both the Spiritual Realm and Platonic ideal formation. You asked, and those are my thoughts. Thanks for the invite!

MAGESTAR asked the following questions and raised the following issues: 1. “Are you saying that a Shard’s intent does affect its magic systems? If so, how?” 2. “Also, it may be that a Shard’s original personality affects its magic systems.” 3. Spren, Ideas and “Platonic ideals” 4. Can Multiple Spren Combine? 1. Shard’s Mandate and Its Magic System Yes, a Shard’s Mandate (“intent”) absolutely affects its Magic System. I use the word “Mandate” instead of “intent” because Sazed uses “Mandate” to describe this concept in HoA. If you look up both words in the “Cosmere Glossary” linked in my footer, you can read about this. Brandon has said that, on Major Shardworlds, each unique Magic System is formed by the interaction of the resident Shard with its Shardworld. IMO the only difference among Shards is their Mandate and the disparate effects that flow from their Mandate. The Shattering created sixteen Shards that started with equal power. Each Shard was made from Adonalsium’s original, un-Mandated power. Pre-Shattering there was only one Magic System – Adonalsium’s. The Shattering caused Mandates to attach to the Shards (implied by an HoA epigraph). Mandates IMO affect (i) the means of becoming a Magic User (Endowment endows Breath/Divine Breath, Honor relies on the Nahel bond); (ii) the means of accessing magic (ingesting metal, infusing Stormlight, drawing an Aon); and (iii) the magical effects each unique Magic System creates (steelpushing, Elsecalling, Awakening). Look at Mandates on Shardworlds with multiple Shards. Both Voidbinding and Surgebinding can give Magic Users future sight (the Death Rattles and Truthwatching), but they are clearly different magics. Lightweaving compares with what the Midnight Mother does – both create 3-D images. Since Voidbinding and Surgebinding are both Rosharan magics, the only thing that distinguishes them is the Mandate of the empowering Shard. 2. Shard’s Personality and Its Magic System I assume you define a “Shard’s original personality” as the personality of the mortal Vessel who acquired the Shard. An HoA epigraph makes clear that Ruin and Preservation’s power originally had no personality attached to it. To me, that epigraph proves that Adonalsium had no personality when he wielded the power. The only personality a Shard has must come from its Vessel. Brandon has said that a Shard’s Mandate will over time dominate the Vessel’s personality. Ati becomes Ruin. Rayse, who was always hateful, becomes more so as Odium. A Shard can fight against its Mandate’s compulsion, as Sazed is now doing as Harmony, but the fight grows increasingly hard. The answer to your second question is, therefore, “no,” the “Shard’s original personality” has no effect on its Magic System. 3. Spren, Ideas and Platonic Ideals Spren are Platonic Ideals. But even Platonic Ideals change over time. And Plato never finalized his theory because of its squishiness at the edges. How do you distinguish a “flamespren” from a “forest fire spren”? Which part of the human body corresponds to its Platonic form? The whole body? Each organ separately? (Only if interested or needing to fall asleep, you may want to read my post, “Plato, Spinoza and Jung’s Contributions to Realmatic Theory.”) Is Honor a “universal concept”? Even Kaladin notes the Alethi lack of honor (despite their thinking they possess it) compared with listener honor. On earth alone, there are many cultural concepts of honor. I don’t know why you think the Cosmere would have only one concept. As emotions are biochemical, I agree that emotion spren are likely unchanging. But the motivation to feel an emotion – what causes one to cry, for example – may also be culturally unique. As the social anthropologist Clifford Geertz noted [paraphrasing], “when is a wink an intended communication, and when is it simply an eye tic?” 4. Can Multiple Spren Combine? I suppose this is theoretically possible, but it would go beyond Radiantspren. Look again at the recent post I wrote about spren combination and the WoBs cited there. Brandon only talks about combining “two” Magic Systems. NEDYAH DRALLID raised these questions: A. You opined that “sapient spren” is the proper name for Radiantspren. B. You questioned whether windspren or bindspren binds the Adhesion Surge. A. Meaning of “Sapient Spren” I think Brandon’s response to Blightsong was not intended to limit the group of “sapient spren” to Radiantspren. Brandon often uses that term to distinguish between independently thinking, judgment-forming spren and their “lesser” merely sentient cousins like windspren, etc. He says in the newest WoB (April 2016) quoted in my recent post that sapient spren have their own personalities and behaviors. That presumably is why they also have their own cities and societies. There are sapient spren that are not Radiantspren. The Stormfather and Nightwatcher are not Radiantspren, yet they are sapient. (While the Stormfather is bonded to Dalinar, a bondsmith’s Adhesion Surge comes from windspren or bindspren – see below – and its Tension Surge comes from whatever spren enables binding the Tension Surge.) Cucinesh (the Iri harbor spren) is likely sapient. The “mindful” Unmade carry an Odium Splinter – they are likely sapient. Seons and Skaze – the closest thing to spren not on Roshar – are sapient. IOW, all Radiantspren are sapient, but not all “sapient spren” are Radiantspren. B. Windspren vs. Bindspren You questioned which spren binds the Adhesion Surge. I thought it was windspren. You say bindspren. Now I’m unsure. In one of the cited WoBs in the linked post I keep referencing, Brandon calls Adhesion “Pressure,” his original name for that Surge. “Pressure” reflects the Surge’s genesis as WIND pressure – the ability to create vacuums, for example, causing objects to Adhere. Syl refers to windspren as her “cousins.” Many posters speculate that Kaladin’s fighting prowess derives from his ability to feel wind currents and sword movements – why he feels he sometimes doesn’t need his eyes to fight. Another theory speculates that Windrunners’ Shardplate is formed by windspren. But Syl herself refers to “bindspren” when Kaladin first lashes a rock to a wall. (WoK Chapter 57 (Kindle p. 796.) The bindspren are “dark blue and shaped like little splashes of ink.” It’s possible that bindspren are another name for windspren, at least in their grounded form. Or maybe two spren can bind the same Surge, and only human perception causes the spren to appear differently. Or maybe Brandon just changed his mind about the appropriate spren. The short answer is, IDK… BLIGHTSONG: On reflection I now agree that any “spren of Honor” should find lying difficult or impossible. If Honor is the “God of Oaths,” as Syl says, then truth should be important to maintaining one’s oath. “Spren of honor” truthfulness does seem to be a function of Honor’s Mandate, rather than the “concepts or ideals” that define Radiantspren and their respective KR orders. I also agree with how you characterize the relationship between Platonic ideals and human thought. Thought is generally evolutionary rather than revolutionary. But even evolutionary changes can be substantial over time. The 20th century philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein developed a philosophy of language that concludes that words define our reality, rather than merely reflect it. Until we place a name on something, we don’t notice its existence. Since words change rapidly over time, we would expect our definitions of reality to likewise change rapidly. Consider changes in the English language over the past 600 years. Chaucer wrote his Canterbury Tales around 1400. Here are the opening lines in Chaucer’s Middle English: When that Aprille with his shoures soote The droghte of Marche hath perced to the roote, And bathed every veyne in swich licour, Of which vertu engendred is the flour… This is how it reads in Modern English (in one translation): When fair April with his showers sweet, Has pierced the drought of March to the root's feet And bathed each vein in liquid of such power, Its strength creates the newly springing flower… Imagine how thought might have changed since Aharietiam, some 4,500 years ago! On earth, we were reading hieroglyphics back then and believed the sun revolved around the earth. So while I agree with your Platonic model, I concur with Nedyah Drallid and think it’s possible for spren to have changed quite a bit over the millennia, even if their motivations remain rooted by Honor and Cultivation’s respective Mandates. Finally, Blightsong, I think our different characterization of Magic Systems is mostly semantic, since I see no practical effect from our differences. I’ve always believed that all Magic Systems are just variations of Adonalsium’s original magic, since they use the same Powers of Creation to alter Connections. The interaction of Mandates with Shardworlds causes these variations. But the variations are real, even within a single Shardworld. Brandon states that Scadrial has three Magic Systems – two from each Shard and one produced by both Shards. He’s also said that Sel only has one – presumably because the Dor fuels all Selish magic. And he’s said that Roshar has three: Voidbinding, Surgebinding, and fabrial-based magic – plus the “weird” Old Magic.” Also note that one of the recent Ars Arcana (I forget which book’s) refers to “different investitures” fueling different magic. So classification of Magic Systems is an untrustworthy pursuit. Personally I don’t think it matters what we call them… * * * * * * * Regards, all!

The debate on this thread raises some interesting questions about the nature of spren and their relationship to their Shard's Mandate (Intent). Mandates (Intents) and Spren Behavior Many Forum dwellers assume a Shard’s Mandate (Intent) affects personal behavior. Honor’s Mandate (Intent) seems the most problematic – folks conclude that because Tanavast’s Shard is called “Honor,” then both spren made from Honor’s Investiture and their human hosts must act “honorably.” Whether “honorspren” can “lie” raises this question. IMO Mandates’ function lies in magical expression, not personal expression. Honor’s Mandate is “bonding.” His magic joins things together, whether spren, people, other organisms, ideas or objects. The dictionary definition of “honor” IMO doesn’t necessarily apply to Mandates. I think a different mechanism is responsible for Radiantspren behavior. As I wrote earlier this month citing some old and new WoBs, Radiantspren are a combination of two “lesser” spren AND (to quote Brandon) a “concept or an ideal mixed with an essence.” IMO the “concept or ideal” is what makes Radiantspren more or less “honorable,” not Honor’s Mandate. Radiantspren are Splinters defined by human thought. I theorized in that post that each Radiantspren’s “concept or ideal” corresponds to their KR Orders’ Primary Divine Attribute. (A KR’s Secondary Divine Attribute IMO produces that special magic unique to each Order.) All spren are “living ideas,” INVESTED ideas. Just like Investiture can infuse objects, it can also infuse ideas. Radiantspren, unlike other spren, don’t just personify natural phenomenon or emotion; they also personify some higher level “concept or ideal” – the Divine ideals: Protection, Justice, Bravery, Love, Learning, Creativity, Wisdom, Resoluteness, Dependability, and Piety. To me, its self-evident that these higher level “concepts and ideals” change over time. Otherwise, we’d still be in caves worshipping the sun and the moon. These are not examples of Platonic forms like fire or emotion, as Bllightsong and Magestar suggest. Brandon’s confirmation in Blightsong’s most recent post – that “the way humans perceive and personify spren has affected them” – is unsurprising. ASIDE: “Dialectical idealism” is the heart of Frederic Hegel’s “philosophy of history”: start with an idea or ideology (a “thesis”); others object with an opposing ideology (an “antithesis”); and agreement is ultimately reached somewhere in-between (a “synthesis”). The synthesis becomes the new ideology that re-starts the dialectical process. Karl Marx adapted Hegel’s dialectic to apply it to the material world: Marx concluded that “dialectical materialism” – changes in how societies organize economic behavior, as opposed to how they think – is the driving force of history. I assert in my recent post that thought changes over time affect Radiantspren themselves – and their host Surgebinders. When asked whether KR oaths are consciously chosen or occur naturally, Brandon answered, “They are a natural outgrowth of the spren, but the spren are a natural outgrowth of human's perception of natural forces…” (Source, almost halfway down Blightsong’s post, emphasis added.) The nature of Radiantspren at any time is thus mutually interdependent with the human thought that gives Radiantspren definition. That’s why Surgebinders fought each other in Alakavish’s war against Nohadon. Surgebinders before the in-world WoK were not bound by the same ideals that Nohadon’s book later instilled into Surgebinders. Surgebinder spren in Nohadon’s time represented different “concepts or ideals” than did KR Radiantspren. Can “Spren of Honor” Lie? In a WoB at the end of one of Blightsong’s posts, Brandon says I don't call the shards good and evil. There are no good and evil shards in my opinion, like and so, what evil and what's not evil can totally have spren of honor that you would consider evil. They have free will, but they are much more limited. It is very hard, or impossible, for them to lie but they can be cruel. I read this WoB as referring specifically to the “spren of honor that you would consider evil” because “they can be cruel.” IOW, I think Brandon refers to “highspren,” Skybreaker spren. Highspren’s “concept/ideal” is Justice. We would expect spren dedicated to Justice not to lie. Other Radiantspren may be perfectly capable of lying, depending on their Primary Divine Attribute. Syl herself, an “honorspren” whose Attribute is Protection, may well lie on occasion, if necessary to protect. Brandon also tells us that spren have their own personalities and behaviors (at [14:53]) independent of their Shard’s Mandate. That’s why highspren may act “cruelly” despite being bound by their defining Primary Divine Attribute of Justice. Justice can be cruel, as Nale shows throughout WoR. (Does this mean Nale tells the truth when he says Surgebinders cause the Desolations?) FWIW Pattern IMO did NOT lie to Shallan. He merely distracted her from pursuing his thought. A “lie” is a factual misstatement. It is not an opinion or, as in this case, a statement about what Pattern is thinking. (Please don’t debate this point – it’s not important and just my view of things.) But Pattern is certainly capable of lying and, as Pathfinder and Stormgate both point out, lies are the shadow that illuminate the truth. Wyndle Is a “Cultivation” Spren – As Are ALL Radiantspren Yes, Wyndle is a “Cultivation spren.” Just about ALL Radiantspren are “Cultivation spren,” in the sense they bind natural phenomenon, that is, the Surges. As Blightsong notes, the Surges are the “fundamental forces” of Roshar modified by magical influence. “Maybe creationspren is ‘emotional’ and Transformation and Illumination have some emotional element to them” (from my recent post). But that assumes art does not derive from naturally occurring “patterns,” which is a philosophical issue: “True Wit is Nature to advantage dress'd / What oft was thought, but ne'er so well express'd” (Alexander Pope, “An Essay on Criticism,” 1709). My recent post posits that each Radiantspren is comprised of two “lesser” spren – “two of the ‘smaller’ magic systems in this world” (Source, Q 3). Each “lesser” spren provides a single Surgebinding. An “honorspren” binds the Surges of Gravitation and Adhesion. Those spren are gravityspren and windspren. IMO the concept of Protection (the Windrunners’ Primary Divine Attribute) combines these two spren into an honorspren. Honor’s main contribution to Radiantspren is as the glue. Honor binds lesser spren together, binds the newly combined spren to their Divine Primary Attribute, and binds the Radiantspren to Surgebinders to make KR through the Nahel bond. The underlying lesser spren, however, do all seem to come from Cultivation. They are more or less “honor-y” based on their “concept or ideal,” not Honor’s Mandate. Mandates (Intents) and Magic Systems One final thought raised by this thread. Blightsong quotes the August 31, 2011 Reddit AMA as follows: One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited. The “role” of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift—allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy. Brandon’s statement that Mandates – “personality/role” – only affect “the WAY the magic is obtained,” but not “what [a Shard] can do” is curious. Brandon’s statement is arguably inconsistent with a later WoB that Magic Systems are a function of a Shard’s interaction with its Shardworld. If the only difference between Shards is “the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do,” then the full burden of magical diversity would fall on the Shardworlds alone. Why would a Shardworld with multiple Shards have more than one Magic System with different magical effects? I think Brandon’s statement means that Shards are not precluded by their Mandate from performing specific magical acts. Ruin’s “energy,” for example, “can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role.” Otherwise, Ruin’s magic would be limited to “ruining” things – decay and destruction – when his magic does more than that. As just one instance, burning atium enables future sight, hardly a destructive act in itself, although Elend and his band used it for that purpose. Maybe this is obvious, and I’m clarifying something you all understand. I’ve often seen this statement quoted. But the key sentence certainly got me thinking…

Galendo: “Surges” are not “magic systems.” Surges are “the forces in this world [Roshar],” as Brandon says in the December 2010 WoB quoted in the OP. Brandon recently confirmed that the Surges resemble the “fundamental forces” of our universe, modified by magical influence. Source at [1:41:30]. I view the Surges as Spiritual Realm Connections between people {Souls) and/or objects (Essences). Look at the Wiki page on Surgebinding to see what I mean. The relevant “magic system” is Surgebinding, the ability to alter the Connection each Surge represents. Again, the Wiki Surgebinding page makes this clear. For example, it says the “Transformation Surge can be manipulated by the Surgebinder to change the molecular structure of an object.” That’s what Soulcasting does. When Brandon says “Each order was based on a combination of two of the ‘smaller’ magic systems in this world, so to speak… [October 2010 WoB quoted in OP, emphasis added],” he must mean spren capable of manipulating a single Surge. He isn’t referring to Surges themselves, which aren’t “magic systems” at all. And he isn’t referring to Radiantspren, since the magic Radiantspren enable is considered a “major” system. All we’re left with is single “lesser’ spren like gravityspren and windspren combining to create an honorspren. Dracnor’s quoted WoB shows that spren can combine. (Dracnor, can you give us a link to this WoB?) The fact that Brandon was deliberately vague regarding the method tells us that something other than Bondsmiths may be the agent of their combination.

Two WoBs from late 2010 plus an April 2016 WoB provide insight into the relationship between spren and the Knight Radiant (“KR”) Orders. I haven’t seen this discussed anywhere, so I thought I’d take a crack at it. As always, these are MY interpretations of the WoBs. SUMMARY 1. I think Radiantspren are made from two “lesser” spren, each of which Focuses a single power. I speculate a “lesser” spren is a sentient, pre-Shattering spren like gravityspren, firespren and lifespren. 2. IMO, the interaction of an appropriate spren and a “concept or an ideal mixed with an essence” is what defines the KR Orders and determines their placement around the KR “Round Table” (what I call the KR chart at the front of WoK…the KR are Knights, after all).I believe the “concepts/ideals” come from Honor. 3. I think each KR Order’s Secondary Divine Attribute determines that Order’s intrinsic “third” power, the one that’s “of their own.” These include Windrunner squires (“Leadership”) and Lightweaver mnemonic abilities (“Honesty”). 4. “Concepts/ideals” change over time, as human perceptions and ideas change. I believe Surgebinders may have evolved with these changes. This may be the reason Nohadon wrote the in-world Way of Kings – to forever fix his own concepts/ideals of the KR. RELEVANT WOBS Here are the three WoBs I rely on: From October 15, 2010 17th Shard Interview (excerpted, emphasis added): From December 25, 2010 Stormblessed.com Interview (excerpted, emphasis added): From April 23, 2016 JordanCon Report, excerpted, emphasis added): ANALYSIS Spren Combinations I think the reference to “two of the ‘smaller’ magic systems” in the October 2010 WoB means that Radiantspren are a combination of two of the “lesser” spren. Each pre-Shattering spren IMO is the Focus for a different power. That's why Radiantspren can Focus two powers. Some posters speculate that honorspren are an evolved form of windspren, and cryptics are an evolved form of creationspren. I think windspren and creationspren have already" evolved" from Adonalsium spren with an infusion of Cultivation's Investiture. The difference between these spren and honorspren and cryptics, IMO, is Honor's Nahel bond. IOW, an honorspren is a windspren bound by the Stormfather to a KR, and a cryptic is a bonded creationspren. KR Order “Concept/Ideals”: Primary and Secondary “Divine Attributes” The 2016 WoB defines spren as “pieces of Investiture…that because of human or other sapient creatures thinking about…or interacting with the power…take on a life of its own.” Power leaks into the Cognitive Realm to Invest the ideas there. IMO, each Radiantspren represents the power that Invests the idea of their “Primary Divine Attribute.” These Attributes are set forth in the WoK and WoR Ars Arcana charts. In the Meaning of Primary and Secondary Attributes?, I assert Primary Attributes attract the spren to a KR, and Secondary Attributes are “how that person behaves once the Nahel bond is in place.” IOW, spren seek only the Primary Attribute in a KR to decide whether to bond with them. KRs’ Secondary Attributes may be the “something…of their own” peculiar to each Order. Windrunners’ Secondary Attribute of “Leadership” is why they command more squires than other Orders. Lightweavers’ Secondary Attribute of “Honesty” causes their mnemonic abilities – an accurate (“honest”) memory. Skybreakers’ Secondary Attribute of “Confidence” gives them their “almost divine skill” to divide “the innocent from the guilty.” ( Chapters 55, 54 Epigraphs.) KR Order “Essences” Brandon says the “concept/ideal” is “mixed with an essence.” I speculate that the “essences” listed in the WoK/WoR Ars Arcana charts are the same ones the glyphs in the Round Table represent. These “essences” are “what they call the elements of this world.” (December 2010 WoB, quoted above.) I presume “they” refers to the “philosophers from ancient days, who created those tables.” I speculate those “philosophers” were Vorin, although that's uncertain. Khriss created these charts based on Nazh’s input. Jasnah tells us the Vorins destroyed or manipulated pre-Vorin writing. I suggest Khriss/Nazh have no source for their information other than Vorin texts. As Nyali and Skaa have noted, the “essences” on this chart seem mostly to align with earth’s “classical” elements of earth, fire, water and air. “Mostly” because two of the essences do not – the “life” or “aether” (“divine”?) essences associated with the Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers. Thus, the “air” essences align with Windrunners and Skybreakers, who can “fly” by manipulating the Gravitation Surge. The “fire” essences align with Skybreakers and Releasors, who share the Abrasion Surge. The “water” essences align with Lightweavers and Elsecallers, who share the Transformation Surge (presumably because water is “fluid”). The “earth” essences align with Willshapers and Stonewards, who share the Cohesion Surge (presumably because earth coheres into various solid states). The other two Orders, Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers, align with the “life” or “aether” essences. Their specific Surges seem less significant than their “divine” functions: bonding and foreseeing the future. All life requires bonding, and the growth (“cultivation”) of life requires foresight. Brandon says the sequence of Surges (and hence KR Orders) around the Round Table mirror Roshar’s natural forces; their sequence is neither accidental nor arbitrary. This is consistent with the foregoing classification of essences and the following quote from the WoR Chapter 35 Epigraph: the placement of each Nahel bond “was related to the bonds that drive Roshar itself, ten Surges, named in turn and two for each order.” The History of Surgebinders – Changes Over Time Concepts and ideas change over time. Thought is not static. Brandon describes the interaction of thought and power at the Madison OdysseyCon (emphasis added): This WoB highlights the circular nature of the interaction. Spren come from our perceptions, but the KR oaths come from the spren. What would have happened if humans first perceived Surgebinders as “super” men and women unbound to any rules but their own? Would the spren who emulated the Honorblades have changed to be consistent with this perception? Perhaps that’s why Ishar immediately “caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.” (WoR Chapter 42 Epigraph). This quote suggests that Ishar created the Orders, or at least their predecessors. But we don’t know what “precepts and laws” he obligated Surgebinders to follow. We also don’t know how accurate this in-world Words of Radiance statement is or whether this in-world book was written before or after Nohadon’s in-world Way of Kings and was therefore influenced by it. It’s possible there WAS no “organization” or bonding to “precepts and laws” before Nohadon, and the in-world Words of Radiance is simply wrong. We do know that Nohadon thought that “not all spren are as discerning as honorspren.” We also know that Surgebinders fought each other during his time. The fact that Surgebinders would seek prominence over one other and fight to achieve it strongly suggests the in-world Words of Radiance author may have been wrong about what Ishar did. Nohadon’s book sought to change that. His parables caused perceptions of Surgebinders to change and the KR to form. Radiantspren changed to accommodate these new perceptions: oaths arose to ensure the incremental accretion of both responsibility and power in equal amounts. Oaths are the “safety valve” to prevent Surgebinder wars and Surgebinder dominance over “mere” humans. The Recreance and the advent of Vorinism destroyed existing Surgebinders and the ability of spren to create new ones (even had they wanted to). Surgebinders and the KR were now viewed as “evil” and untrustworthy. I suggest the spren would not have returned to bond with humans had Nohadon’s book not found its way back from obscurity. This is why I think so many Kholins are potential Surgebinders – they’ve all read the in-world Way of Kings or had read the book read to them, absorbing its ideals.

Thanks to you all for your continued interest in this theory. I’d like to respond to the following points: (1) further “main theory” questions about the relationship between Investiture and the Powers of Creation, (2) the relationship between Splinters and other forms of Investiture, and (3) the meaning of “living” Investiture. 1. Main Theory I still believe that all Cosmere magic flows from the Powers of Creation. I rationalize Brandon’s conflicting statements by concluding that the Shattering invested the Shards with these Powers. IOW the Powers of Creation became the bulk of the Shards’ Spiritual DNA that comprises their Souls. The Powers of Creation, therefore, now ARE Investiture. (I say the Powers are only part of the Shards’ Souls, because the Vessels’ original Souls still seem to be lurking within them. The Vessels do drop out of the Shards when they die, as Leras, Ati and Vin all did.) Characterizing the Powers of Creation as part of the Shards’ Souls, and hence Investiture themselves, allows my basic magic model to continue to run smoothly. Magic Users can still “touch” and “use” the Powers of Creation – Connect with them – and we can call what Magic Users touch “Investiture.” I will be amending my A Glossary of Important Cosmere Terms post, and the OP in this thread, to reflect these conclusions. 2. Splinters vs. Other Investiture To illuminate the main theory, I asked about the difference between Divine Breath (a Splinter) and mere Breath (which is not). If they’re both “Investiture,” how does one distinguish between Splinters and other forms of Investiture? I came up with the following explanation: Splinters can independently create magic. As Brandon has said, Splinters are both Spirit and Mind. They have no need to Connect back to their Shard for power. By themselves, Splinters can perform the same magic as their Shard, though on a smaller scale. Other forms of Investiture allow a Connection to their Shard, but it is the Shard’s power that performs the magic. Varangian opined that “Divine Breaths probably just have a fundamentally different Spirit Web effect, alongside a much much higher Investiture.” I disagree with the second part of this statement, since a person can have anywhere from no Breaths (a drab) up to more than 50,000 Breaths (Susebron). But I do agree that Divine Breaths and mere Breaths cause their hosts to have “fundamentally different” SpiritWebs – a direct result of their different Investiture. A Returned is a resurrected dead person whose Soul is directly bonded to its Divine Breath. An Awakener is still alive and must Connect to Endowment to Awaken objects. Because a Returned doesn’t need a Connection to Endowment to perform magic, it can only use its Divine Breath once. The absence of a Connection to Endowment means the Returned cannot increase its magical power by adding Breaths the way an Awakener can. A Returned does need to periodically acquire Breath, but that’s because the Returned’s Soul knows the Returned is dead and needs the additional Breaths to maintain the Returned’s body (according to a WoB I’m too lazy to track down). Awakeners OTOH have an ongoing Connection to Endowment. Their power grows as they acquire additional Breaths. Their SpiritWeb includes this Connection, unlike Returned. Blightsong concludes that Divine Breath is “its own magic system, separate from Awakening but similar.” This is a fair way of looking at these differences. While I may be engaging in semantics, I nonetheless prefer to think of a single Shardworld’s interactions with a single Shard as creating only one Magic System. In both cases, Endowment “endows life,” whether to dead people (Divine Breath) or inanimate objects (Awakening). We deem Surgebinding as one Magic System and the Metallic Arts as three Magic Systems even though both have multiple variants. Again, though, this is just word play that I don’t feel strongly about. 3. The Meaning of “Living” Investiture I addressed this in an earlier post on this thread, but that was before I concluded that the Powers of Creation are now part of a Shard’s Spiritual Investiture. Since Master_Moridin again raises the issue, I feel the need to further clarify. (You’d think a Forsaken would know…) Not all Splinters are “alive” in the sense they have personality and the capacity for independent thought and feeling – the way Syl and Pattern behave. Self-awareness simply means that a Splinter is capable of directing its own power. Sazed says, “I am uncertain of how thoughts and personalities came to be attached to the powers in the first place – but I believe they were not there originally.” (HoA Chapter 55 Epigraph.) His comment suggests that “thoughts and personalities” are unnecessary to the exercise of power. Brandon recently explained how human interactions cause Splinters to have “thoughts and personalities” (at [14:53], emphasis added): The general fundamental rules that create spren are Cosmere-wide. Spren are pieces of Investiture, usually pieces of Investiture that come straight from one of the Shards of Adonalsium, split off in some way, that because of human or other sapient creatures thinking about it or interacting with the power, the power starts to take on a life of its own. The power develops personality and comes alive, so to speak. And this can happen…in any place where there is Investiture. So it could happen on any planet in the Cosmere with significant amounts of free Investiture. The places you’ve seen this happen most commonly are Sel and…Roshar. You haven’t seen it on Scadrial, but you’ve seen little kind of hints of it on Nalthis, but not quite. But it’s possible for it to happen anywhere. The combination of Cognitive Realm Investiture (human thought and interactions) with a Splinter gives it “life” and personality. Aons and Divine Breath themselves are not “alive,” though they may be self-aware. Seons are “alive” because human “thoughts and interactions” cause Cognitive Realm Investiture to develop and enfold the Aon at the seon’s core. IMO the “little kind of hints of it on Nalthis” refers to the Returned, which function like seons, except with Divine Breath – the mind of a Returned bonds with Divine Breath to give it “personality.” Sapient spren on Roshar – which are Splinters – also have personality because of their human interactions. They too combine a Splinter with Cognitive Realm Investiture. To summarize, “living Investiture” like spren means Investiture that has developed its own personality and “life.” Splinter “self-awareness” refers only to the capacity of Splinters to direct their own power.

Many of you believe that the “Powers of Creation” are just different words for “Investiture.” Blightsong, for example, has done an admirable job of dredging up WoBs in support of that view. The following is my attempt to reconcile this conflict and see if we can reach common ground. To review, the OP posits that Adonalsium was the consciousness the previously mindless Powers of Creation developed to wield them. Power without conscious direction will become conscious on its own. I believe that’s what happened here. Adonalsium was the “God Beyond” the Realms who “invested” in the Realms and created them. When the mortals who became Shards Shattered Adonalsium, they pulled the Powers of Creation into the Cosmere's Realms. Reconciliation: Because these mortals already existed within the Cosmere’s three Realms, each already had a mind, body and Soul that consisted of matter, energy and Investiture. The Shattering thus merged the Powers of Creation into the Vessels’ Spiritual Realm Investiture, their Souls. IOW the Powers of Creation became the Souls of the Shards, just as they were once Adonalsium’s Soul, but adapted themselves to the Vessels’ existing Spiritual Realm Investiture composition. The Powers of Creation BECAME Spiritual Realm Investiture. This explanation is consistent with the OP’s theory. There I stated “I believe that the Shattering caused the powers of creation to became part of the Shards’ souls, in the Spiritual Realm.” I just need to add that the Powers of Creation are now composed of Spiritual Realm Investiture. I still have a problem with conflating the Powers of Creation and Investiture. How do we distinguish between Divine Breath (a Splinter) and mere Breath (which is not) if both are made from Endowment’s Spiritual Realm Investiture? IIRC 2,000 Breaths approximately equals the power level of a Divine Breath, but they are still different things. If their composition is identical, and both come from Endowment’s Investiture, how is a Splinter any different from any other form of Investiture? Nonetheless, in the spirit of reconciliation, I offer this compromise. Regards all!

Thank you for your response, Blightsong. I’ll address your issues in the order you raise them. 1. Investiture Does NOT “act the exact same as this 'Power of Creation’’’ We do NOT “know FOR A FACT that investiture powers magic.” Brandon has NOT “said this on numerous occasions.” To the contrary, Investiture gives a Magic User the ability to ACCESS the magic (the Powers of Creation that comprise the Shards - Source (Q 18)), and Brandon HAS said THAT. That’s precisely Brandon’s point about Vin’s use of the “essence of Preservation” in the WoB I cite in the OP and which you now question. Source (Q 18). I’ll quote the relevant portion again here (emphasis added): So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak — though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she's doing just that — using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself — to fuel Allomancy. “Burning metals” allows Vin to “tap into the powers of creation.” IOW she’s Connected to Preservation through the lerasium she inherited, which permits her to access the Powers of Creation. The mists OTOH ARE Preservation, and Vin IS using his “body” – the Powers of Creation themselves, based on the WoBs I cite in the OP – to fuel Allomancy. Investiture comprises the bridge – Vin’s Connection – to Preservation, but as you say we can dispense with the Investiture bridge altogether when she uses the Powers of Creation directly by burning the mists. Look at your conversation with Brandon on this subject at the Madison OdysseyCon. I’m going to quote it at length for a full picture of the conversation in context (textual emphasis added): Other guy: Is a Mistborn invested? Brandon: The Mistborn, how their burning the metal, you're right. They are not specifically invested when they are not burning. When the investiture becomes active, then yes. Before, no, you're right on that. SPOILERS FOR SH OR BOM Me: So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was invested, but because he had the ability to become invested? END OF SPOILERS Brandon: Over time using the magic will invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either. [Your comment: He cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought.] So I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the mistborn are as invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the spirit web. Investing [is] the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the spiritual realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them (like soulcasting or forgery) is harder. My observations about this conversation: a. Everything before Brandon says “I’m going to have to back up on that one” is irrelevant. He clearly changed his mind and reversed positions about what he was saying. Your assumption about “how it works on Scadrial” is misplaced, since Brandon immediately thereafter says that “the mistborn are as invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority of the power is coming from somewhere else.” In the case of Mistborn, the “somewhere else” is Preservation. b. When Brandon says “Investing [is] the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the spiritual realm,” he’s referring to the mechanism by which the Powers of Creation flow to the Mistborn and the Knight Radiant. Lerasium – “concentrated Preservation” – “gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer).” Source (Q 18). (You really should read this long WoB I keep citing – it provides lots of insight.) Lerasium changes a Mistborn’s SpiritWeb, as Brandon says in your conversation, giving the Mistborn the means to access – Connect to – “the mists and the powers of creation.” IOW ingesting lerasium DOES “invest” a person and give the Mistborn a Connection (made of Investiture) to Preservation (“the mists and the powers of creation”). “Burning metals” is how the Mistborn USES that Investiture Connection to access (“tap into”) the Powers of Creation. Burning the mists themselves dispenses with the Connection and enables a Mistborn to “fuel Allomancy” directly with the Powers of Creation. That’s why Vin’s Allomantic abilities are so much stronger when she does burn the mists directly. This highlights the difference between Investiture and the Powers of Creation. 2. “[T]he original investiture of the universe” You describe this phrase as a “synonym” for the Powers of Creation. Brandon does not. He defines Investiture as “the word for someone or something which has gained a portion of the magic of Adonalsium…” Source (Q 45, emphasis added). Something can’t be “original” if it must be “gained” from something else. Brandon says the thing “gained” is “a portion of the magic of Adonalsium.” That clearly means the “magic of Adonalsium” predates Investiture and is something different from Investiture. IOW there was no “original Investiture of the universe.” 3. The Sentience of Nightblood, Spren, Etc. and Cognitive Shadows Nightblood is a special case. I discuss Nightblood in this post above. Brandon describes him as “his own strange thing…a robot spren.” IMO this is because he is an Awakened object. I’m not sure that another Magic System could have produced Nightblood. We do have spren, seons and skaze that are sentient, as you say. I discuss them in this post above. These entities are all a combination of Splinters with Cognitive Realm Investiture: “ecause of human or other sapient creatures thinking about it or interacting with the power, the power starts to take on a life of its own.” “Power” in Brandon’s quote refers to the Splinter (a bit of the Powers of Creation) that comprises the Radiantspren or is at the core of seons (an Aon) or skaze (IMO a Dominion Splinter). These entities all “come alive” through the Splinter’s interaction with the thoughts of “sapient creatures” in the Cognitive Realm, encasing them in Cognitive Realm Investiture. That Investiture enables them to bond with the minds of sapient creatures (another Connection “bridge” between a Magic User and the Powers of Creation). I agree that “Cognitive Shadows are made purely out of investiture, and are still sentient.” They were always sentient, since they are the conscious remnants of people who for whatever reason refuse to pass “beyond.” These people’s Connections to the Physical Realm have been severed by their deaths, but their minds and souls remain. And they do require Investiture to stay in the Cognitive Realm, as we saw with Kelsier. Since Cognitive Shadows were always sentient and continue so, I don’t think they prove anything. Otherwise, you’d have to question how humans have sentience in the first place… 4. Adonalsium (the Mind Directing the Powers of Creation) Created the Cosmere The Cosmere didn’t self-create. Brandon has made clear that something existed before Investiture, as I describe in numbered paragraph 2 above. He states that that “something” was the “magic of Adonalsium,” the Powers of Creation. Given the WoB I cite in that paragraph, I can’t see any other conclusion. (Then again, I have no idea what you mean by “Cosmereversal constants.”) Because Investiture is the “fundamental building blocks of the Cosmere,” and Adonalsium predates Investiture, then he must predate the Cosmere. My conclusion that he continued to stand “outside” the Cosmere’s Realmatic structure is speculative, as I freely admit in the OP. I even speculate that the opposite could be true, but conclude as I do for the reasons I state in the OP. I’m not wedded to the conclusion Adonalsium remained outside the Realms. I am wedded to the conclusion that he predates and created the Realms. 5. Conservation of the Powers of Creation Brandon has repeatedly discussed how Investiture, matter and energy are interchangeable and convertible into one another and that system-wide they obey the Cosmere’s version of the Laws of Thermodynamics. I’m not questioning that. Rather, the OP speculates whether those laws apply to the Powers of Creation that created Investiture. Just because Investiture can be “recycled” doesn’t mean it can recycle back into the Powers of Creation. System-wide, the Laws of Thermodynamics can be observed without such recycling – there would simply be that much more Investiture, matter and energy to account for the diminished Powers of Creation. The question raised in the OP is how the creation can again become its creator. I conjecture that it can’t. That conjecture obviously can be wrong, but it does have a certain thematic appeal, as the last section of the OP suggests. I did overstate my conjecture as conclusion; I didn’t mean to endorse this idea as strongly as it came across. But it is an interesting thought, and I offer it for consideration. * * * * * * * * * I’ve tried to answer your questions. I think my model works reasonably well given our still limited understanding of things. Brandon has said he hasn’t told us much about what Investiture actually is. Do take a look at this WoB (Q 18) I referred you to – if you ruminate on it, you’ll find it rewarding. Regards!

Yata pointed me to a statement Brandon made at JordanCon about how spren are pieces of a Shard’s Investiture. He asked me whether I thought that statement undermines my recent theory on The Making of the Cosmere. Here’s the quote in relevant part, at [14:53]: The general fundamental rules that create spren are Cosmere-wide. Spren are pieces of Investiture, usually pieces of Investiture that come straight from one of the Shards of Adonalsium, split off in some way, that because of human or other sapient creatures thinking about it or interacting with the power, the power starts to take on a life of its own. The power develops personality and comes alive, so to speak. And this can happen…in any place where there is Investiture. So it could happen on any planet in the Cosmere with significant amounts of free Investiture. The places you’ve seen this happen most commonly are Sel and…Roshar. You haven’t seen it on Scadrial, but you’ve seen little kind of hints of it on Nalthis, but not quite. But it’s possible for it to happen anywhere. My theory distinguishes between Investiture and the Powers of Creation. I cite WoB that the Shards are “pieces of the power of creation.” From this I infer that Splinters must be even smaller pieces of the Powers of Creation that develop their own consciousness. I compare Divine Breath – a Splinter of Endowment – with mere Breaths. Divine Breaths are bits of the Powers of Creation, but mere Breaths are Endowment’s Investiture that allows Awakeners to “touch” and “use” the Powers of Creation that comprise Endowment. Since we know spren – certainly Radiantspren – are Splinters, how do I square Brandon’s latest pronouncement with his earlier ones that the Shards (and IMO Splinters) are made from the Powers of Creation? The short answer is that spren are not just Splinters; they are MORE than Splinters because they include a Shard’s Cognitive Realm Investiture. They have “a life of [their] own.” Aons and Divine Breaths don’t have “personality and come alive.” It is the seons encasing the Aons that have personality and the Returned bonded to the Divine Breath that have personality (the “hints of [spren] on Nalthis”), not the Splinters themselves. The Splinters are bits of the Powers of Creation, but by themselves don’t “come alive” because they are not made from Investiture. Spren and seons DO “develop personality and come alive” on Roshar and Sel, the two planets Brandon mentions. Brandon states that’s “because of human or other sapient creatures thinking about it or interacting with the power [emphasis added].” IOW spren and seons form in the Cognitive Realm – they are made in whole or part from a Shard’s Cognitive Realm Investiture. While spren and seons both bond with humans (and maybe others), they are also different from one another. Seons are made exclusively from Cognitive Realm Investiture. They bond with people on Sel and, like all Investiture, give the bonded person access to the Powers of Creation through their encased Splinter. Seons themselves are not formed from the Powers of Creation. (See The Making of the Cosmere theory where I explain this distinction.) Radiantspren, at least, ARE Splinters: small bits of the Powers of Creation. But they also include Cognitive Realm Investiture because they reflect human thoughts and interactions. Those thoughts and interactions are what give life to spren, as Jasnah tells us. That’s also why Brandon says Knights Radiant Orders consist not only of two Surges, but also a “concept or an ideal.” Source (Q3). Radiantspren are a combination of Surges and ideas – of the Powers of Creation and Cognitive Investiture. The distinction between Splinters and spren is like the difference between Adonalsium and the Shards. Sazed says that Shards have “thoughts and personalities,” but implies that Adonalsium didn’t. IOW power needs a mind to wield it or the power will develop consciousness on its own, but power does NOT need “thoughts and personalities.” Splinters need only a consciousness to direct their power, but spren (and seons) in addition “come alive.”

The recent Odyssey Con report includes Brandon’s answer to a question about the nature of Perpendicularities (edited to highlight what I deem to be the important parts): Brandon: “[L]arge concentrations of investiture can cause a puncture through the Spiritual Realm straight to the Physical Realm. If you know how to use it, you may transition. That's not the only way but is the primary way….” Q: “[Y]ou said ‘punctured’ almost as if it were a spike.” Brandon: “Yes, yes, that was intentional.” This post speculates about the meaning of these statements. Introduction We’ve known that at least certain people can Worldhop through Shardpools, which is one (and maybe the only) type of Perpendicularity. Perpendicularities are caused by “large concentrations of investiture” that “puncture” the Realms like a “spike.” Elsewhere in the Odyssey Con Report, he implies that Perpendicularities were not created by a hemalurgic spike because of hemalurgy’s limitations: Q: “Is it theoretically possible to hemalurgically spike a Shard into someone else, and if so, what would be the outcome?” Brandon: “A full shard? Hemalurgy could not hold that much of an invested charge. Not without something really weird happening.” This leads to several questions: 1. What causes such “large concentrations of investiture”? 2. Why do such concentrations puncture holes between the Realms? 3. Why are such holes shaped like spikes? Speculation My short answer to these questions is that Shards inject their Investiture into their Shardworlds. Their investment pours in at a specific point and then spreads to the remainder of the Shardworld, like injected vaccines spread throughout our bodies. The Shard remains “hooked” into the Shardworld as a result, limiting the Invested Shard’s ability to migrate from its Shardworld. I do not believe the “puncture” has anything to do with how the Shards became pieces of the Powers of Creation at the Shattering. They were on Yolen at the Shattering. Perpendicularities seem to be a feature of individual Shardworlds. Adonalsium created all Shardworlds, even Scadrial, before the Shattering. When Shards made their way to their own Shardworlds, they shaped them with their own Investiture. Perpendicularities resulted from the injection of their Investiture. In answer to the three questions, then: 1. Shards mostly exist in the Spiritual Realm. They are comprised of the Powers of Creation. They convert their Powers into Investiture in the Spiritual Realm (“true” or “raw” Investiture), concentrating it there. When a Shard is satisfied with the Spiritual Realm form of its desired creations (the creations’ Soul or Essence), it pushes that Investiture downward, through the Cognitive Realm to manifest in the Physical Realm. 2. The weight of the concentrated Investiture “punctures” a hole in the fabric of the intervening Realms. For whatever reason, that hole does not heal. It remains open for Realmatic transitions. Perhaps these holes form the conduits that Connections between Realms pass through – like electrical wiring running through the Realmatic “house.” 3. I think Brandon “intentionally” uses the “spike” metaphor to convey a sense of the both the narrowness of the conduits and how much like a hypodermic needle they are. Your thoughts?

Yata, maybe I missed something, but I don’t think Nightblood is an actual Splinter. (I’m going to capitalize terms that I describe in my “Glossary of Important Cosmere Terms” post. Please bear with me…) Brandon describes Nightblood as follows: “Nightblood is kind of his own strange thing. He's an attempt to use one magic to replicate something in another. He's closest to a spren, but kind of like a...robot spren, for lack of better words to use.” If Nightblood is not a spren, he’s not a Splinter. If he’s not a Splinter, he is not composed of the Powers of Creation. He’s simply a highly Invested object that has acquired sentience, making him a “robot.” I don’t recall seeing Nightblood exercise any of the Powers of Creation. All he does is consume Investiture, destroying it in all three Realms. Brandon has identified other Cosmere entities that consume Investiture, including Leachers and larkins. That doesn’t make such entities Splinters. I think you correctly summarized my model. FWIW, I’m reasonably confident that my distinction between the Powers of Creation and Investiture is valid. I’m less confident that the Powers of Creation are a declining resource, although that fits the current model. Certainly not something I would bet on… Regards!