eveorjoy

Sadeas had a code. He believed the tenants of Vornism. Soldiers needed to be trained for the war in heaven. Sadeas may have eventually come around to wanting to fight for the world. He did so for Galivar in the past. Amaram follows a code as much as Sadeas did.

Moeloch is mentioned in Taravangain's interlude as is Nergaoul

I agree to a point. It is a gray area, but the Skybreakers and Nale always needed a legal reason to kill someone and the legal authority to do so. Look at what Nale says to his people in both WoR and Edgedancer. Nale always acted within the law. Amaram did not. I never said that it did mean good guy. Furthermore, I said Amaram could become a radiant, but I think he has a long way to go. However, if anything goes and there is nothing that disqualifies one from being a radiant, then Adolin was very wrong in killing Sadeas. Sadeas could have been a great Elsecaller or even Skybreaker by your interpretation. Dalinar was right. Killing Sadeas removed a great resource.

Taravangian says the death rattles are the effect left on a soul after the unmade, Moelach, touches them as they pass on.

I think we will need to agree to disagree. However, the Skybreakers would not justify murder for a shardblade. Amaram's act of killing and stealing the shardblade was against the law and therefore unjust. As for the Elsecallers, what evidence do you have that they believe the ends justifies the means. If it is Jasnah killing those men who were about to steal from and kill her you need to read over those chapters again. Shallan and Jasnah determined her actions were unethical, not unjustified nor amoral.

I am not saying Amaram could never be a Radiant. What I am saying is Amaram is a long way from being one and simply regretting killing innocent people is not enough. He would have to make a complete fundamental change in character to become a Radiant and this goes beyond good and evil. Killing innocent soldiers, even regretfully, is against the ideals of the Knights Radiant. TWoK from the chapter 59 "An Honor" Page 593. Bold again added by me. Amaram would need to accept the oath of "Journey before destination." He would have to see why killing people for what he believed was the great good was wrong. Finding out Kaladin was a Radiant all along would not be enough. In fact, Amaram already knew that Kaladin was the reason Adolin could walk after being tricked into fighting four shard-bearers. Kaladin already proved useful Radiant or not. Kaladin's usefulness is not important. Killing four innocent spearmen to save thousand more is against the first ideal of the Knights Radiant. Now back to Adolin. Adolin's act was an act of revenge. It is the same as Moash's, however, Adolin may be redeemed where Moash may not. I am not going to go over every instance in the book where Adolin is angry with Sadeas, but if you compare his words and actions to how Moash talks of Elhokar and Kaladin of Amaram you will see the similarities. Revenge is often prompted by what appears to be justified. Yes, Sadeas threatened to continue to cause problems for the Kholin family, but Adolin did not logically think, I'm going to take this matter into my own hands. He was furious and Sadeas had finally pushed him too far. Adolin's actions were a crime of passion. In anger Adolin took revenge for the death of his men and the acts against him and his father. It might look like justice because we hated Sadeas. Attacking Elhokar may look like revenge because we like him but the acts and motives are the same. The system will not deal with this person so I must. In truth both Adolin and Moash are wrong. In fact, Adolin has less justification than Moash. Roshone has already been punished for the death of Moash's parents. The system did fail him. Adolin however, could have kept his temper and told his father what Sadeas intended. They then could have worked together to find a way to deal with it. Heck Elhokar could have brought Sadeas up on charges for numerous reasons. Elhokar even suggested as much at the end of TWoKs. Killing Sadeas wasn't the only way to deal with him it was just the easiest way.

WoR page 1061 From the Chapter 88 "The Man Who Owned the Winds" Bold added by me. This is not a man who has faced what he has done and is ready to join the heroes. This is a villain who tries to rationalize his actions. He regrets only not killing another innocent man. As to Sadeas's death, it is troubling that so many think Adolins act is a good thing. Just because Sadeas death is helpful and perhaps a good thing that does not make Adolin's actions good. What if Adolin had killed someone he thought was Sadeas? It would have been the same act, but I doubt those here praising Adolin would be as proud. There were other ways to remove Sadeas: from trying him for treason to stripping him of his rank and exiling him from Urithru. Yes, they would have been harder, but there would not have been someone for Ialai and others to martyr use as a symbol against Dalinar. However, whether Sadeas's death is a good thing or not does not make Adolin committing murder a good thing. I love Adolin, but just because a character I love killed a character I hated that does not make the act good. If this was so, Kaladin should not have only killed Amaram, but he should have helped Moash kill Elhokar. Moash tried to kill Elhokar for the same reason Adolin killed Sadeas, revenge. It was not justice nor was it right. If it had been, Adolin would not be slowly breaking down right now and on the path to becoming a radiant himself.

Actually, Amaram now regrets not killing Kaladin. He didn't spare Kaladin for honor but as a twisted kind of mercy. At the end of WoR he regrets his merciful act because it ruined a friendship. This is not someone with true honor making his group name, Sons of Honor, very hypocritical. He is also worse than Sadeas according to Hoid. I don't think he will be joining the good guys anytime soon. Many villains have mercy. Many villains do things because they believe it is the right thing to do. A villain can only be redeemed after he sees the error of his ways. Amaram has long way to go before this is possible.

But Moeloch is connecting with everyone not just people with useful information. Also, they are beings that can go anywhere and see everything. They don't need information from street jugglers and five-year-old kids. Where as a cryptic message could lead people to make bad choices. And I actually wonder if Taravangian's diagram will lead to an outcome where humanity survives. The Nightwatcher gives you want she wants to give you. Windle has said she has given up on humanity. Maybe she didn't give Taravangian the gift he thought she gave him. But this is a tangent. I doubt Taravangian's people are the only ones who notice the death rattles. In fact, I know they aren't because Navani also mentioned them. The death rattles maybe a subtle trap that Taravangian and others have fallen into.

What knowledge would Moelach gain that is of any value? I think it would be far more useful to give humans enough rope to hang themselves with incomplete visions of the future.

We learned from Dalinar's vision that the unmade are of Odium and WOB is that Odium influences humans through the unmade. Nergaoul causes the thrill in men and I am pretty sure he/she/ze is an unmade. Well, we know of an unmade who causes the death rattles, Moeloch. That doesn't mean these visions are lies per say. In fact, we have seen some of them come true in both TWoK and WoR. However, that does not mean knowing these future events is something that will save mankind on Roshar. Seeing the future has already been stated to be from Odium and the Voidbringers as well. Also, there are many stories where hearing the future leads to it, from the Greek tragedy Oedipus Rex to The Kingkiller Chronicles. So maybe Taravangian is not saving the world by killing these poor people in his hospital. Maybe he is learning a possible future that will end Roshar. Thoughts?

That was awesome.

*Okay, I can't read all of the pages here. So if I repeat something already discussed, sorry. My thoughts. *Yay. It is finally here. *So Dalinar starts the book, well it is his book that makes sense, *Oh Dalinar can get an up close look at the visions. Awesome. *I think Honor assumed there would be a champion for Odium regardless if the humans could come up with a champion of their own in time. Therefore Odium's champion would still be in his nightmare. And Honor was thinking about Odium choosing a champion, so seeing him in the vision makes sense. I doubt that is it anyone in particular because Honor said this vision was a guess not the actual future and he did not see anyone from Dalinar's time. That was too long after he died. *And we come to the discovery of Sadeas's body. That was quick. *Chapter 1 was too short. *I think Adolin's scene was a later addition. If you look at Brandon's visual outline he never intended to have a tertiary character POV in part one. Only the main characters were in part one. Brandon said after info from readers he added some scenes to clarify things. Adolin's scene only does three things. One, worldbuilding. Two, reminds us Adolin killed Sadeas. And three, shows us his state of mind. I think Brandon originally wanted to keep Adolin at a distance from the reader for a bit, but then maybe his beta readers forgot who killed Sadeas. It is possible. I doubt all of Brandon's beta readers had read WoR obsessively over the past few years. I do think it is more important that the reader knows Adolin is the killer than to keep us in suspense of Adolin's state of mind. And even what we got wasn't that in depth. Adolin seems to still be in shock and he has not processed his actions yet. Of course, this is just a guess. It's a good scene and I am glad we got some of Adolin's POV. *I love Palona. I think she is speaking for many readers as well as in world characters. Still, I am glad Dalinar did not agree. It shows how much he has changed and the fact that he will use any resource he can get to help the world. Is it good that Sadeas is dead? Hmm. I don't know and most likely never will. Though, I think Brandon had done all he could with him, so in that sense it is good he is gone. *Wait a minute. I wonder if anyone has addressed this and if you have an explanation I will be pleased. Okay, so Bridge Four gets their powers from Kaladin being near them. Well, If I remember correctly the Lopen regrew his arm on the Shattered Plains, while Kaladin was in Urithiru. Now it is pretty clear the Shatter Plains are nowhere near Urithiru. In fact, some guess Urithiru could be closer to Alethkar than it is to the shattered plains. Of course that is just a guess, but still, if range affects Bridge Four's ability to use stormlight, how did Lopen arrive with two arms in Urithiru while Kaladin had been at Urithiru the whole time? And why are the members of Bridge Four powerless now when Kaladin's away when this was not the case in the last book? What am I missing here? *In connection with that, which of the squires will get a spren first? Lopen as a full radiant would be awesome. *I read in some posts, before I gave up, that some were questioning Dalinar appointing Highprinces. Well, here are some reasons I think he wasn't intentionally usurping Elhokar. First, Elhokar is injured and might not be able to appoint anyone right now. Yet they need people to take these posts and someone must make assignments. Kaladin took command of Lighteyes this way in TWoKs because somebody needed to at the Tower. Kaladin was not usurping Dalinar or Adolin's authority, he brought order to chaos. Dalinar may be merely doing the same here and will defer back to Elhokar when he is better. Second, they are at war and Dalinar is Highprince of War. He might assume he has the authority to assign other Highprinces to tasks in times of war. Maybe not, but I can see why he would think that. Finally, does Elhokar have authority in Urithiru or does the current Bondsmith have the right of leadership in the city of the Radiance? Dalinar as head of the Knights Radiant may have the authority to assign anyone to do anything in that city and just uses the structure of Alethkar with Highprinces because that is what is familiar. Regardless, in the situation they are in they need Dalinar in command right now. After they save the world, Dalinar can step down and let Elhokar rule whatever is left of his kingdom. *Shallan didn't even get a speaking part. Brandon wants to make it clear this is Dalinar's show. *Something is up with Renarin's powers. Maybe I'm reading too much into this but I am seeing a red flag in this statement. *The flashback I read before. No new thoughts except we got the flashbacks quickly in the narrative this time. I hope this means it is a long sequence. *That's kinda how I feel when I finish a new Stormlight book for the first time.

I hope you can get it to work. Looking forward to it.

Me too. Makes me feel less silly for being excited all day to read only a small portion of a book that doesn't come out until November. I was so bummed when the chapters didn't drop. It is going to be hard not looking at them until after I get my morning tasks done tomorrow.

Do you think we already got one of these chapters? Wasn't Kaladin's first chapter released on Tor a while back? I mean it will be different, but likely we know at least that chapters content.

I need to find the backdoor into the site.

They are released at 00:01 or 12:01 am ET every Tuesday. So that should be 4:01 am GMT.

@Calderis yes, there are atomic bombs missing, but not the majority. There are likely thousands of blades missing. I'm sure a few were lost, but not most of them.

That would be really foolish. Having a shardblade makes you into a lord or at least a person others must listen to. You can't imprison someone who has one, which is likely the reason Brandon had Kaladin imprisoned one more time in WoR. That will not be possible anymore. Even without the ability to surgebind because of lack of stormlight, Syl can still turn into his shardweapon, then cut through almost anything and set Kaladin free. Shardblades are like the atomic weapons of Roshar. Rock said if just one of their leader won one then they would become king of the horneaters because none of the others could not challenge them. It takes time for enough crem to be deposited to make stone. I just have a hard time believing a whole bunch of shardblades were left in the middle of nowhere long enough to be covered in crem unless they were gathered up and hidden in a place where no one else would find them. So maybe the Skybreakers or the Shin did that. But if people were just randomly leaving a shardblades here or there to be lost, that is a lot of really foolish people.

From Dalinar's vision of the recreance, we learn there were a lot more shardblades in Roshar during the shadow days than in the time of the novels. Dalinar seemed to notice more shardblades being dropped in front of Feverstone Keep than there were in the whole world in his time. What happened to all of these shardblades? When I read this chapter in TWoKs I didn't think much about it. I figured the blades were destroyed from misuse or something. However, WoR gives us a lot more information on shardblades. They are the remains of spren. Spren bodies are not going to be worn away from misuse. I don't know that anything in the physically can hurt a spren. The only things that could are words. In this case, the pen is truly mightier than the sword. A sword can't cut a spren, but a pen can define and trap it. Still, spren bodies are not going to rust or decay. They can be caught in gemstones but that will not destroy them. As for shardblades, they can't be cut or damaged by anything. I know this sounds like my other point, but my other point was more of a focus on the spren themselves. Now, I am just referring to the blades. They remain sharp no matter what they cut. The only thing that can shape them are the blades themselves. So we can be sure no one can just gather up shardblades and melt them down or bash them into a pile of scrap metal. Even in battles with other shardbearers the shardplate is the only thing that can be damaged. The blades never are damaged. So it appears shardblades are indestructible. Then where are all the shardblades the Radiences discarded? Did Nale and his Skybreakers or perhaps the Shin gather them up and store them somewhere? Did the blades that didn't have a mind to connect to finally fade away? So what happened to all of these shardblades? What do you think?

I already pledged. Come on, everyone. Let's make this happen.

Awesome. Looking forward to more.

Stormlight Archive, but this is subject to change. Before Stormlight it was Mistborn. Before Mistborn it was Wheel of Time. Before Wheel of Time it was Tales of Earthsea. Before that Dragon Riders of Pern. Before that Harry Potter. So we will see what supplants Stormlight Archive in the future.

I'm not asking for predictions. We have another thread for that. I want to know what you are looking forward to that will likely be in Oathbringer, I'm looking forward to: Kaladin at Hearthstone. I don't think his parents will be there, but I think other people from his past will be. It will be interesting to see him talk with Laurel again. Kaladin meeting with his parents. This I think will happen before Kaladin leaves Alethkar. I hope they help him realize Tien's death was not his fault or at least that they do not blame him. I wonder will Lirin be angry at Kaladin for what he has become. Hesina I think will just be happy to see him again and proud of him. Lirin, however, might have some issues with Kaladin joining the Knights Radient. He did tell Kaladin once that they were corrupted by power. Shallan interacting with the Ghostbloods. They are bad people, but their goals are an intriguing mystery, especially because the leaders are not from Roshar. I do wonder if they will tell Shallan where they are really from. I doubt it though, but I can hope Shallan exploring Urithiru. I think Shallan's chapters will focus more on the history of the place than the other POV characters. The others will be too engaged in the war. Shallan's scholarship is her main public contribution to the war effort. So it is from her we will learn more about the history of Urithiru and the Knight Radiant. Jasnah letting someone know she is alive in someway: in person or by spanreed. I hope Brandon doesn't have Jasnah keep her survival a secret for long. I just think it would be silly to have her not join with the others before the end of this book. Seeing Lift again. I love Lift. Having Nightblood talk to Szeth. Nightblood always made me laugh in Warbreaker. I also look forward to seeing how Nightblood uses stormlight instead of breath. I'm hoping for a scene with two Heralds. It would likely be a Szeth POV chapter and one of the Heralds would be Nale. I think it would be interesting to have Szeth and Nale walk in on Shalash as she breaks a work of art depicting her. We have had bits of conversation between Heralds her and there, but never a full scene with more than one, except for the prelude of WoK. Dalinar trying to unite people. This is not his natural talent, but he always makes an earnest effort. It will be interesting to see him learning how to be a Bondsmith. Dalinar's past. I hope the whole sequence is much longer than "The Trill." I enjoyed what we got in Unfettered 2, but I could tell that was only part of it. Shallan's and Kaladin's flashbacks were more complete. Also hopefully we will learn what happened to Dalinar's wife. Adolin facing the consequences of his crime. Not that he will be caught, but he will be effected by what he did somehow. The fallout of Sadeas's death. I'm hoping as much as we got of Lalai in WoR that we will see more of her in Oathbringer and that she will be an even better antagonist than her husband. Seeing more of Taln and hopefully finding out what is going on with him. I am sure he is the Herald Talenel and I want to see more of the Sons of Honor. That's what I am looking forward to reading about. What are you looking forward to?