Voidmaker

Yes, I saw it earlier. I forgot that the chart mirrors as well, so it's significantly less than what I counted.

You could call them something like Sailseekers, since they're primarily ocean-travel based. Or maybe Deepseekers? Doesn't work as well, though.

We only have 85~ combinations to run through, compared to their 240~ left. We're having fun though.

Everybody at once, I'd wager (if i was old enough to wager).

the sun is a deadly- Lightweaving laser, but better. Nice! Might be a bit too destructive, though

Wow!!! Very well done. You put a lot more thought into this than most. Makes a lot of sense, and I like how you added the trivial details (Spren design, typical jobs, typical living spaces, etc) to make it seem more 'in-depth', pun intended Great work with that imagination, though! You're very good at this. My only minor adjustment would be to see if you can find a two word title instead of a one word title, but it's a bit of a nitpick so I don't mind in the end.

Pretty good, make sure to keep a strong emphasis on active truth-hunting in order to differentiate it from Truthwatchers, but besides that, it's great as it is. Might want to make the Fifth more concise, but I don't know how to do that with your Fifth Ideal.

Makes sense. I didn't mean you had to make a table out of those, I just wanted to know if there's a 'greenlight' for the wilder combinations. However, since you gave the greenlight for Surgestacking... Illumination x Illumination! The Selfshapers! (If you have better naming suggestions, I'll take them) This is a tricky Surge in it's purpose alone- illusions, lights, sounds, all can be fabricated with it. However, I'd expect more 'vivid' illusions- to the point where they wouldn't feel realistic since they lost the Transformation aspect that original Lightweavers have- but with double the Illumination, you'd get Heightening-like effects from it. This order is based around the individual because the illusions get stronger as you ascend Oaths and you need a realistic anchor to prevent yourself from being lost in the dreamlike illusions. They take a note out of the Lightweavers book but are more associated with accepting the Truths of the world or of other people, as that grants them an attachment to reality. So, chart: Knight Radiant Order: Selfshapers Surges: Illumination and Illumination (Surgestacking) Surge Combo: Dreamlike Illusions that cannot have a physical form, but if controlled right, can completely trick one's Cognitive state into fully believing the illusion was always like that- even for the most paranoid and suspicious. They break upon outside contact, however. Savant Effect: They are the weakest to their own illusions. As they ascend Ideals, the illusions get stronger but they become more anchored, so it balances out- but they will always be tricked by their own illusions if exposed for too long. Half an hour is the limit before they believe the illusions fully- and if this illusion is a disguise, it takes a loss of Stormlight to make them snap out of it as they embody the disguise completely. Truespren: Creationspren (Lightweaver Cousinspren) Platespren: Fearspren Theme: Helping people face harsh reality. First Ideal: LBD/SBW/JBD Second Ideal: I will make the unwilling face the world. (Something along those lines Third Ideal: I will not force the world to be different from what it is. (Something along those lines) Fourth Ideal: I accept that there will be people who are not ready to accept reality. (Something along those lines) Fifth Ideal: I am Unreal. Spent a lot of time on this, hard to think of at first. Felt like turning it into a full order, so I did.

Imagine if that conversation happened with Nightblood. "Help, this sword's talking to me!" ? "What magic did you use?" Harmony "Breaths. I'm on Nalthis." ? "Have you tried taking the Breaths out of it?" Harmony *dying from whoever's wearing the earring* "Did they just hang up on me? I don't get paid enough for this." Harmony

Customer/Tech Support is how Harmony loses it and turns into Discord. We've solved it. We're all brilliant!

You can try this post's (seen above) reading order, and you can also check out Treamayne's comment on this post (the same one above) if you want to make one yourself.

I can't tell if this is just a small joke at his age or not, but it's the kind of thing where I'd imagine he'd see an anchor and a clear way up, he'd note it down in his mind, then when the illusions become intense he can close his eyes to guide himself to the anchor (opening occasionally) and then just Pushing himself up and away when he gets a chance, to escape. Makes sense. Still, the reason that the bead ocean is equal to land height is that the representation of air is supporting it all, is my guess. The representation of items in the beads are physically much smaller, so there's gotta be something in the bead ocean to support it all to make it equal land-level. Ah, the good ol' Coinhost (emphasis mine). Makes sense. Thanks!

I wonder how that would work in tight settings, though. What happens if two Windrunners collide mid-air? Could Wax duck into an alleyway to force them to group up? Got it- only limited density materials. Also, I was assuming that Wax would just memorize his environment beforehand so he could predict things- unless they move in the way of his flight path. I do wonder how long Illumination-based blindness last. Could permanent blindness be done? Yeah. I guess if all objects are shrunked down to fit in the beads, the reason there's still such a large ocean of them is because the majority might be made of air. We don't know how permanent that is, though. Worse comes to worse, just pop out another casing to fly off of. Still would get annoying and limiting, so thanks for reminding me.

Depends on where they're fighting, to be honest. In the middle of a forest? Hard to fly for all parties. In an open plain? Severe disadvantage for Wax. In Elendel? A lot more anchors for the Windrunners to have to sabotage. Can steelsight go through solid objects or does it have to be a direct LOS? I forget. I didn't mean completely fight only with Steelsight, but if you get blinded or feel you can't trust your surroundings, use Steelsight to find an anchor and GET OUT OF THERE. The sooner you can get away to recover your senses, the better. (Also, unrelated, but imagine Rosharans playing Prop Hunt but with Lightweavers. Just use a whacking stick and go around searching. Sounds like fun!) Depends on the location of natural anchors as well, but they will very much tamper with his anchors if he's the one slapping them down. That's fair. I feel like if you're getting to a Bondsmith, you've gone through all the other Radiants first, anyways... and I think that's pretty difficult to do. Those were in the beads, though, right? Is air stored in the beads too? Even then, turn the floor below him to fire and it should have a similar effect. Wonder if any Stoneward just tore a giant stone battle axe out of the ground once. That'd be crazy. Can Cohesion create sharpened material? If so, I desperately need more Stoneward scenes in these books, Brandon!!!!

Yes, aluminum is the only (except for the warning shot bullets- don't waste good aluminum on keeping them focused). I was going off the idea the 'Gun Guy' is Wax, so Steelpushes would increase mobility, and really screw up the Squires- since they don't have Shardblades they'll have regular metal weapons, and increasing your weight and then Pushing their blade will trip them up often. They'll adjust quickly, so again- fire fast, and stay nimble. Use Pushes to stay as far as you can. Yes, sorry for not clarifying off the front, but I'm assuming that based on this being 'Ranette's Plan' or something along those lines we'd have access to Wax's abilities. Any normal guy might get a shot or two off before getting gutted. Only somebody with SOME ability would be able to survive any of these scenarios, and that does not count gun ability. I feel like this is more so a personal thing, but I don't think Abrasion could do that much, especially with Big Gun Slugs in mind. There might be a more specific WoB on this, I'd like to see it but I don't think ALL of the force should be discounted if it hit right. Also, again, assuming Wax's powers and a sufficient environment, you should be able to stay out of the way for long enough to weaken them over time. Assuming Wax's powers again, you should be able to stay out of reach. Wait for an opening, Push off the ground if you suspect it's been too long, get out of there. As long as you can bait them out and get enough shots to start breaking Plate, you can win. The slow game benefits you here, their Stormlight runs out eventually. Steelpush outta there! As soon as they start playing tricks, you can close your eyes and try to rely on limited Steelsight to make quick escapes, and if you time it right you might get a few surprise shots off on them when they're unprepared, but again, good luck with that. I really should've prefaced that we're using Wax's abilities here, as you are ENTIRELY correct with these- any regular human might land a strike or two on Plate or a Squire, but they won't survive any of this. Yeah, Wax isn't surviving that. However, I am confused. Can you really Soulcast in the Cognitive Realm to effect something on the Physical Realm? That's a lot more dangerous than I thought. This is where the context of Steelpushes becomes VERY necessary... but even then, if you keep jumping around everywhere, it'll be hard to land a shot but you might be able to escape. Still is basically certain death for anybody without magic. Ooh, that's a cool idea I never thought of. Is that possible? Very nice. Again, Wax might be able to stay out of range of the range of any Cohesion-Tension shenanigans to fire off a couple rounds, but Stonewards will be very difficult to kill. Aim for the eyes on the stone-armor, and try to land as many hits as possible on the regular Shardplate. Maybe you can even Steelpush metal inside the armor (if there even IS any)? Wax's Steelpushes become apparent here, too. Stay in the air, and you'll be fine, go in close if you can, and just fire as much as you can and land as many shots as possible. Oh, I definitely was. I didn't realize the 15-20x, I thought it was more like 5-10x. I know about the bullet resisting thing, that's what the Big Gun Slugs are for, just hit them enough times to crack it and break it. I figured the agility thing, but I also thought Wax could Steelpush himself into the air to keep distance, or Steelpush away from Skybreakers/Windrunners. Yup, good call with those. Thanks for responding! In my haste I forgot to clarify everything. However, that gives me another idea- what if instead of just inventing Hazekiller Bullets, we invent Hazekiller Misting/Ferring/Twinborn teams? Magical power is the only way to even slightly survive against a Radiant, but if we had multiple shooters with different toolsets and abilities (For example, how would a Leecher affect Stormlight on a Squire? F-Steel-A-Chromium, anybody?) But thanks for the improved data on Shardplate wearers, I thought they were strong but not THAT strong. (Also, does ANYBODY have any clue how to beat an Elsecaller team?????? Those are FAR too dangerous.) Thank you all!

Gotta love being a... piece of land. Huh. That means I'm worth a lot, though, right? Sadly, that also means people can walk over me literally. Huh. Or maybe I'm just a person that belongs to the Pahn Khal area. Don't know which is better, at this point. Edit: Okay, now I'm a slave. Hooray. (Do these things get better eventually?)

Nice table! Thanks for it. It also just gave me a cool idea: What if we did special combos for 'Surge Overlap' as well? If the lore to these creations is true and Ishar is truly binding together two random surges, then we should totally try to make things like Adhesion x Adhesion and Gravitation x Gravitation and onwards. Should we attempt to make a full 'Order' out of the Double-Surge, or should we just theorize on the cool abilities of Surgestacking? And also, what if we start combining THREE surges at once? That'd be very difficult to chart, but I feel like we should try to test the limits here a bit. What do you think we should do with these 'technicalities'?

Pretty late to the thread, but No way. Even the Lord Ruler himself couldn't heal decapitation, and he had The Well of Ascension-buff PLUS Compounding PLUS the earliest Feruchemy PLUS Lerasium Mistborn strength, the strongest Allomancer/Feruchemist/Compounder known to the world. You'd have to at least be Fourth Ideal with a ton of Stormlgiht to heal a decapitation which still seems difficult, and you might be able to do it on third if you had Honor's Perpendicularity worth of Stormlight but even that seems impossible to do, there is no way a Second Ideal Radiant could heal a decapitation. I think this might just be a different way of looking at it, you might think Stormlight Healing is stronger than it is, or I might think it's weaker than it is. However, to keep the original discussion going, I'd like to mention something that you said yourself: Radiant power is limited by Stormlight. Shardplate requires Stormlight in order to heal, and Stormlight Healing only works if you have Stormlight to heal with- not to mention all Surges require Stormlight, so I feel like we shouldn't be designing Hazekiller Rounds to kill Radiants in one shot, but to 1. break Shardplate and 2. do as MUCH damage as possible. So I agree with this: The Big Gun with huge slugs to break the Plate quickly is an excellent idea. The more Plate you break, the more Stormlight is required to heal it back. Then, you try to fire off something like a Bloodmaker round to knock off an arm or just a general high-caliber round to do as much damage as possible. We might want to use Aluminum rounds for headshots if we can land them, but our main goal here is to FORCE them to heal. Stormlight is a very difficult resource to get, and since I don't think a typical Twinborn would be fighting in a Highstorm and since Dalinar's Perpendicularities don't last that long, our goal should be to deprive them of their Stormlight as fast as possible. This is also why I think squires would be an easy kill- blow off a limb or two, and they'll use up all their Stormlight, and then a regular gun can just blow their brains out before anybody can get more Stormlight to them. This also makes it a near-foolproof way of slaughtering Radiants entirely. The only thing you have to worry about is your aim and your distance- they get too close and that Radiant Weapon is gutting you. It's also a good idea to just keep moving in general- the more Stormlight they waste moving around trying to get to you, maybe even a Lashing or two, is better. Division is the real problem, because if you can't break the Plate then there's nothing you can do. For these, aluminum infused/covered/combined rounds are better, just so you can take them down easily. Maybe the Big Gun (Huge Slugs edition) would still work if you can sneak up on them, but that'd be harder with a Spren watching over their shoulder all the time. If you can dual-wield two smaller caliber weapons to just hit them before they can use Division on the bullets, then that'll work too. However, there are two things that should be kept in mind for fighting Division Radiants- they're VERY easy to knock off-balance if you hit them right. Let's say a Dustbringer is sliding towards you, as you reach for your revolver shakily. Then, you drop it- ripping the Big Gun from your back, and popping them in the chest. No friction, and if the bullet landed right then it should send them spinning out. Chase and keep firing, don't let them get a grip. For Skybreakers, it'll be a lot more difficult. Get them Lashed in the air- let them keep themselves steady. Then you gotta find a way to manually distract them- a team member?- to hit them when they're not expecting it. Once they're spinning in the air, trying to Lash themselves in the right way, you have to hit them with a couple of bullets really fast in order to break the Plate and start using up their Stormlight. These techniques really only work once, but for Dustbringers if you have enough of an advantage you can knock them down easily, and the Skybreaker might be scared off after you take a good chunk of their Stormlight away. The other orders can only try and dodge your bullets, they can't really 'stop' them- Transformation might work, but I think it'd take longer to change it than to kill somebody. I'll go down the list with every single Radiant and 10 squires they have. 1. 4th Ideal Windrunner, 10 squires. These guys can fly about and can dodge really easily. Stay on the move, if you have Twinborn powers, use them to stay safe. Make sure not to lose interest though, fire a few shots with a less-useful gun at them occasionally to keep them focused on you. Eventually, stop and hold your ground. They'll have to come down to meet you. Dodge the Lashed projectiles accordingly if they send, waste their Stormlight and force them to come to fight you. Depending on how armed the Windrunner Squires are, and your own Invested powers, fight them. If they're super armed and you have none, charge in fast and shoot them on sight. Bloodmaker rounds for the Squires, make them count. The Windrunner will probably come in fast once you take down 3-4, maybe even after the first 1 or 2 if you're slow with it. Big Gun Slug to the Shardplate, swap back to Bloodmaker Rounds on the other gun for the Squires while the Windrunner is disoriented, then repeat. Change it up as much as you can- use a Bloodmaker Round on the Windrunner's Plate occasionally, so you don't have an identifiable pattern. Assuming you have the skill and enough bullets, you can take down the Squires one by one- just keep your distance and don't get overwhelmed if they attack you in a group. The Windrunner will retreat here- but if they charge you, just be ready for them to dodge your bullets and try to hit them as much as possible. Once they're down on the ground, cracked Plate/broken Plate, just unload your guns into them until they stop healing. 2. 4th Ideal Skybreaker, 10 squires- similar to what I originally said, but much easier. These guys only have Gravitation at best, so you can basically do something similar to the Windrunner strategy to get them off you. If you're good at keeping your distance from the Shardblades, then you can keep distance from the Division itself- just don't let them burn you. 3. 4th Ideal Dustbringer, 10 squires- this is the order we know the smallest about. Assuming Abrasion is open to the Squires from the get-go, mirroring the Skybreakers, it's a similar sort of situation but you'll want the high ground this time. Since they can easily slide around towards you to attack you with weapons, stay above them and shoot down on them if you can- or just let them come to you if the Dustbringer themselves are staying in the back. Aim to take off chunks of flesh or limbs or decapitation if you can get it- but be careful, because if you get a glancing blow it might just slide off of them entirely. Repeat with the Dustbringer strategy previously mentioned. 4. 4th Ideal Edgedancer, 10 squires- staying out of range is VERY key here. Do not let them get close, otherwise, they might throw seeds at you and grow plants through you to pin you down. I'll assume the squires don't have this ability, so it's another case of Abrasion squires. Follow the Dustbringer method for the squires, but prioritize staying away from plants and keep eyes on the Edgedancer at all times, while keeping them away so they don't use Regrowth on the squires. Use their frictionless state against them, if you can. 5. 4th Ideal Truthwatcher, 10 squires- you aren't going to face this guy in a straight fight. They're going to try and disorient you with Illumination and then the squires can kill you. Keep a good grip on reality, and don't trust anything. Fire bullets at random to see how they bounce, and what they hit- maybe use frag shots from the Big Gun. Stay away from walls, you don't know if there's a fake wall or not. Keep them as split up as possible, prevent the Truthwatcher's regrowth, stay away from illusions and you're all set. 6. 4th Ideal Lightweaver, 10 squires- Again, another non-fight. Most likely they'll sneak up behind you and stab you while disguised- don't go around with other team members, even if that makes you paranoid. Test illusions to the best of your ability, and don't let them Soulcast you into anything. Prioritize staying agile and firing at things you don't trust. Once you find one of them, kill on sight- they aren't that strong as a Squire, and putting a few holes into Shardplate will make the other squires come out to fight you. 7. 4th Ideal Elsecaller, 10 squires- SEVERELY dangerous. At-range Soulcasting is terrifying. Snipe from a distance, spam frag shots around you- constantly keep an eye behind you. We don't know how Elsecalling fully works yet, but if it's raw teleportation, do not stop moving. I don't know what the squires would have access to, but assumably the same things. Mainly, just let somebody else handle these- I'd like to see if there's any good idea on how to prevent the Elsecallers from turning you to mush. 8. 4th Ideal Willshaper, 10 squires- Watch for teleportation and sneak attacks, get used to the ground under you becoming mush, that'll throw off your aim. Assuming the Squires have the same abilities as the Willshaper, just hop around on your feet and stay as agile as possible- ground turn to mush? Run. Elsecall behind you? Run. Both times, fire behind you. Either they'll leave you alone, or die trying to kill you. 9. 4th Ideal Stoneward, 10 squires- Assumably, they have intense fighting capability and you won't be able to stand your ground against them- literally. Just try your best to get early shots before they get a good handle of the ground. Keep them as far away from you as possible with warning shots and Big Gun Slugs. 10. 4th Ideal Bondsmith, 10 squores- No Shardblade, but a LOT of Stormlight. Rush in, guns blazing, kill that Bondsmith ASAP. No Shardblade to defend with, only Plate (maybe). Tension and Adhesion are still lethal if they get a good grip, so ALSO duck and dodge as fast as possible to stay safe. The quicker the kill, the sooner the Perpendicularity drops. I'd like to hear your adjustments to these ideas, along with any retorts. I've been typing fast since my battery's almost dead, so I might not respond for a long time- sorry in advance! Have a good day, and I mostly skimmed through everything so sorry if I brought up a point that was already made, or if my dismissal of a Radiant's abilities was too hasty- I'm speedrunning this edit right now, in fact.

It's a safety precaution. TLR knows very well that Ruin's trying his hardest to escape, and knows that it's going to be difficult to keep Ruin secure with how the Shard can put perfect pawns into the right places. He never intended to actually NEED the storage caches, he just knew that if he was outplayed he'd want the human race to have a chance- a small one, but a chance.

2 are aimed towards change, but again they're vague, so here is like some 'test' ideals: "I will aid the evolution of all great men." or something like "I will ensure the greatness of the weakest people.", which fit my general motif of the Second Ideal: not outright 'change', but improvement/betterment. The third Ideal then is something like this: "I will save the wretched from their dark path." or maybe "I will aid even the enemy in pursuit of a better future." This one is more change-oriented, which is why I really take it back for the fourth: "I accept that the weak do not need to pursue strength." or something like: "I accept that not all danger can be swayed." This is where we take it back far on the 'change' motif. Finally, the Fifth Ideal (I don't know if there is variation, so I'll just assume 'I am Balance' is the only possible Oath or something) where the Radiant will fully be able to judge when and when not to change, something that Transformation doesn't possess. In summary: "I will change the (weak/good/helpful/unconfident) for the better." means "I improve good people, not completely change them." (Division) "I will change the (evil/bad/misguided/misinformed), to become something great." means "I improve bad people, not completely change them." (Division) "I accept there are some (things, people, places, etc) that cannot be changed." means "My improvement is not always helpful, so I can't always seek to improve others." (Adhesion) "I am Balance." means "I won't alter what does not need to be altered, but I will alter what does need to be altered." Sorry for the longer posts, I just really like talking about this for some reason Good point, but the main difference is that 'Spiritual Transformation' wasn't really an Intent here, it just 'happened'. She didn't even know she could. I want this order to have balance at the forefront since that is what their Surges are made for. I might end up reworking them, though, because you are right- I completely missed the original Transformation comparison. I'll see if anything pops into my head and I'll republish the Adhesion-Divison combo if I get ideas for it, but I think it's barely justified enough to exist as it is. Thanks for telling me, I would've missed it. Also, @Argenti, should we make a list of what combos we've already made? Maybe include it in the original post (just throw it in an edit afterward)? I don't want to restrict creativity but I also feel like repeats will be confusing, and I want to see how long it takes to get a full list. Might do something similar to the Twinborn Combo post (go check that out if you haven't, anybody reading this!) where I occasionally post a combo that comes to mind, if you're okay with that or don't plan on doing it yourself.

Fair point, but the difference here is that they use Adhesion and Division to manually reshape others, because they aren't made to entirely Transform people/societies/places/whatever into something completely different, but to manually help remove negative influence (removal = division) and pull together positive influence for them (pull together = adhesion). They don't change people or objects entirely, like how you could change stone into metal with Transformation, but they could break down the stone and extract the metal fragments/ore inside them, recombining the metal into one piece afterwards alongside the stone- not removing what was originally there, but changing it nonetheless. They also have a focus on balance, which is very not Transformation-ish. An order with Transformation being told not to Transform doesn't really make sense- but it does make sense with this unique capability. Considering Transformation's other uses, it might be better for something else. I'll admit it seems very Transformation-ish, but that's more so just me attempting to be vague. It's really shown in the Surge Combo I came up with, they can break things down and build them up again, but they cannot change what was there from existence. It's why they have to learn some people can't be aided- they don't have Transformation. The reason I chose this sort of 'drive' for the Order is because they're not supposed to be able to FORCE change with Transformation, they're meant to help it along using their ability of breaking down and building up. It also allows some connection to be established with Elsecallers and Lightweavers and every other order that you guys make that has Transformation and allow for important plot development for characters as they have to learn WHY they don't have Transformation. Overall, I overthought things and made them complex and vague simultaneously, creating confusion.

Might be good to use more specific names, like Gaslighter or Exaggerator. Those are two I've come up with, but the more 'specific' you can get with manipulation-based names, the better.

I might invent some combo powers, and you're right about the oaths. The second ideal was generally supposed to be about 'building up' the weak/oppressed/already good people into something improved from before to make the world better, and the third oath was supposed to be about the fact that evil people can be aided as well or helped from their position to similarly improve the world, and violence isn't the only way to get past the 'bad things' of the world, I just didn't know how to word it cleanly and in a simplified manner. I feel like Division would be restricted until the third, because once you learn that you can't just explode evil people you can be safely granted Division. Especially since the first and second are closely related to Adhesion. Also, I decided to make my oaths pretty vague and interchangeable just because we've seen how different the Windrunner oaths are, so I made them as vague as possible, in order to match how it's truly up to the individual's understanding. EDIT: Added my idea of a good Surge Combo and clarified the Second Oath in my original post!

I assume we are allowed to make up Spren in order to fit certain categories? If so, here's my attempt: Knight Radiant Order: Worldmakers Surges: Adhesion + Division Surge Combo: Restructuring! This allows them to completely demolish/destroy an object/surface/area and perfectly repair it afterward. It takes more Stormlight for larger areas and more stormlight depending on how long it's been since it was originally demolished. (EDITED) True Spren: Changespren Plate Spren: Balancespren Resonance: Increased willpower and confidence (akin to Lightweavers memory ability) Ideal Theme: Changing the world for the better and eventually learning that some things should not be changed. (Added Bonus) First Ideal: LBD/SBW/JBD Second Ideal: "I will change the (weak/good/helpful/unconfident) for the better." (EDITED) Third Ideal: "I will change the (evil/bad/misguided/misinformed), to become something great." Fourth Ideal: "I accept there are some (things, people, places, etc) that cannot be changed." Fifth Ideal: "I am Balance." (Skybreaker inspired heavily, it's the only fifth Ideal we have) Wasn't going to do the Ideals at first, but here's my attempt at it. Surprised that it took such a short time to make this...

Fleeing is associated with running, and fleeing could be considered mercy (sparing both sides from conflict/wounds). It could work, and certainly fits the trend: Violence is a TYPE of hatred (Odium), the creation of fire is a TYPE of Ambition, and running away could be a TYPE of Mercy. It fits loosely, but it might not be as important as we think. I've got no comments on the rest of the thread, the theorizing is pretty solid.