Elder

Based on the Epilogue at least, it seems to me that Odium’s game is going to be based on the champion he chooses.

Or neither die.

Nice catch. That could do nicely.

Maybe originally Threnodites became cognitive shadows deliberately, with all the ritual and tradition, etc. Their dead revered. then things went to (the forests of) hell. The story also mentions the “deepest ones.” Those might have something to do with it too. Probably not theFused.

Irrelevant. Sounds like he was begging off the question to avoid spoilers. Just my take though.

My question: are the shades manifestations on Ambition’s investiture? Or Odium’s? We know that Odium was “Weakened by his battles in the past,” (Rhythm of War, pg 1190). On the other hand, in Arcanum Unbounded, they refer to big chunks of Ambition being ripped up. Violent ghosts who frenzy on bloodshed sound much more hateful than ambitious to me. Maybe Odium expended investiture to hurt Ambition there, but only just enough to invest the Forests of Hell, while Ambition’s mortal wound created the Evil that overtook the mainland. Or maybe it’s all Ambition but it’s lost its intent. as for the original shades, what if originally it was just hyper-violent investiture gaining rudimentary intelligence, but it started taking the form of the people it killed, making cognitive shadows.

I agree Taravangian is going to try and force Dalinar to breach contract and forfeit, setting Odium free. So let’s look at the terms they have to meet: Giving us the rules of engagement and the location. Giving us the time Indicating one of the intended Champions, though this may be less than binding. Final Draft, enumeration added. In order to get free, Odium must trick Dalinar into violating one of those 3 rules. Rule #1. To the death. Of course, this can mean a few things. One champion is going to kill the other is obvious, but there are alternatives. It can just as easily be the loser is executed, by either human or divine action. Checkers to the Death! Literal Breakneck! Sometimes the book makes this seem less like a duel and more like a contest of Bondsmithery. Either way, this plays into the child theory nicely. Rule #2. The date. If someone is late or absent, that could do it. Kinda boring. There are other reasons I don’t think this is it. Rule #3. Kinda complex, lots of stuff to play with here: a. Providing a willing champion. If one side fails to provide a champion? Forfeit. If one of the champions is unwilling? Forfeit. Dalinar intends to represent himself. It would be right up in Taravangian’s wheelhouse to compromise Dalinar’s will to fight. This does fit the child theory as well. b. Location. Again, possible forfeit if a champion is absent. Boring. c. No roughing up the opposition’s champion. Lots of play here. Pick a champion who is so provocative that someone from Dalinar’s camp attacks prematurely. Storm’s, pick a champion who Dalinar’s side unwittingly hurts within the 10 days. It’s a fertile ground to play with. When all’s said and done, it seems like Taravangian’s trick will be in his own choice of Champion. That’s what he poked Wit’s brain on after all. Could be the child. Could be a provocateur. Could be someone Odium throws at the Radiants during the 10 days so that they’ll breach contract without knowing it.

@bmcclure7, is this the WoB you’re looking for?

Depends on how you want to define Death on this level. I mean death for Spren isn’t the same as death for humans. I imagine Shards would define Death differently even still. Calling splintering, the breaking up of power, death isn’t unreasonable. I suppose for me it would depend: do the Splintered Shards retain the Intent of the Shard?

Worth pointing out, Atium was a renewable resource, if only an extremely slowly renewed resource. After being expended, It reformed in geodes at the Pits of Hathsin. Even when Kelsier broke the pits, it was noted that this would set back Atium production by centuries, not destroy it forever. Sazed’s ascension did that. Same deal with Preservation’s power. It could be used and exhausted, but over the centuries it would be renewed at Ati’s prison. I suppose that’s the purpose of Perpendicularities: to recover power after it’s been expended.

Both Adonalsium and the God Beyond need more explanation before I comment on whether they correspond very well to the Abrahamic God. Both seem to be monotheistic, but that’s all I got. Adonalsium is credited as the Creator of the Cosmere. God beyond seems to be the one who has an all-encompassing plan for the Cosmere. I’m also not entirely sure where the concept of the God Beyond came from. Is this Dalinar’s faith that if Honor wasn’t truly God then there must be someone somewhere who is? Could the people of Threnody have a similar faith sustaining them through the fallout of Ambition’s death? Is it a shared speculative faith by those who feel there must be something better than the Shards?

Actually, my grasp of Sliverism is weak here. Do they worship Rashek? Or Marsh? Obviously they don’t use either of those names. The irony that Ironeyes is associated with the religion he specifically set out to destroy.

I’d say Sliverists don’t lack for validation of their God’s existence. Everyone believes in iron eyes. People simply take issue as to whether he should be revered. I’d still point to the prophecy regarding Harmony’s influence expanding: Harmony isn’t exactly beloved. He takes such a hands off approach that most revere Kelsier over Harmony. If he becomes less harmonious, apparently he’ll be more beloved.

True, but such gods can be quite safely ignored or rejected. Especially in the Cosmere. It is quite acceptable even to some of the shards to look at them, consider them unworthy of worship, less than godly, and move on. Granted, Harmony is new. I can’t find any particular reference to anyone worshipping or even knowing about Endowment on Nalthis, (that may be due to the unselfish intent of her shard). While I can’t speak for the ones we haven’t seen, The ones who reign by fear might take issue with it. I suppose @bmcclure7 that is where we differ on the definition of Atheism. For me, Faith in or belief in God is more than mere acknowledgment of his existence. When my wife says she believes in me, she’s not acknowledging my existence. In a fantasy world like the Cosmere, where physical evidence of the Shards is there to be found, such acknowledgement is just as meaningless. It would require a belief that such gods are worthy of worship and devotion as gods. That these gods are worth believing in. That remains a personal choice, in both this world and the Cosmere. In my estimation, most if not all Shards in the Cosmere are not. In regards to your definition of Omnipotence, as I understand it, you see it as infinite power. I’ve been defining it as limitless power. I can acknowledge yours as being valid, but I don’t have to agree with it. Nothing in religion has just one definition. I would suggest that there’s one more definition of omnipotence that I think we could agree on: supreme power. None of the Shards have quite established that, though a couple seem to be trying. Their failures seem to be telling. One more indicator that the Shards aren’t omniscient: you can’t lie to a an Omniscient being. You can’t hide things. You can’t fool them. Mortals have been doing that a lot in these books. Lack of lack of Omniscience is a bigger disqualification for me. I’d be even more bothered by an omnipotent being who doesn’t have commensurate knowledge and wisdom than an omniscient being with less power. and of course there’s omnipresence, which we haven’t bothered discussing. None of the Shards are. Jasnah is exactly the sort of Atheist I’d expect in the Cosmere. In regards to Kelsier, I’d argue that many RL atheists would say they believe in themselves instead of God. That would describe Kelsier quite well. Especially in everything he’s done.

1. I wasn’t aware of any indication that Nalthis wasn’t a world of Adonalsium. As far as I was aware, Scadrial was the only one. By creator, I meant creator of worlds if I wasn’t clear. As far as I know, it took two shards to make one world. Two to create one sentient life form on that world. 2. If the Shard limits itself due to intent, then the Shard isn’t omnipotent. Are you sure it was Tanavast who had a problem with Fortune? Or Honor? when he confessed that Cultivation was better at it than he was, he didn’t call her Koravellium. Either way, he was expressly not omniscient. Cultivation admitted to not knowing things, making her by definition not omniscient. 3. I would point to John Fry’s atheism as a refutation of this. in the Cosmere: Era 1 Kelsier. Obviously doesn’t believe in the god placed before him. Through no small amount of deception, he puts himself up as an alternative god. Upon death, the first thing he does is punch Preservation in the face, and gets front row seats to just how not omnipotent Leras has become. Even in era two, bring much more Cosmere aware, he’s a friend to Sazed, not a worshipper by any stretch of the imagination. By this point I’d say Jasnah believes in a similar sort of atheism, and Kaladin is agnostic. The Shards are just shy of perfect, clearly not omniscient or omnipotent. They’re powerful enough to be worshipped as gods, but not enough to really be God, despite what they may think of themselves. Getting back on track. Harmony isn’t widely worshipped on Scadrial. Kelsier is worshipped on two continents under different names, for all he cares. Nor is Harmony’s power dependent on worship. I can’t say anything has changed in that regard. Might change in the future though. Discord is supposed to be the beloved god.

1. Name one Shard that’s actually a creator. They’ve all either taken over a limited portion of Adonalsium’s creation, or it’s Preservation a Ruin’s combined attempt. Omnipotence means no limits. If the Intent (an inherent part of the Shard, not the vessel) is limiting them, they’re not omnipotent. 2. If Honor couldn’t reliably know the future, he wasn’t omniscient. Omniscience knows the future by plain definition. 3. You need to talk to more Atheists. Many don’t reject God because of science. They reject God because they can’t accept God having created an imperfect world. Ironically, most Satanists are actually Atheists.

Shards are demonstrably less than omnipotent. Preservation and Ruin couldn’t create Scadrial individually. They had to team up. Storms, none of the other Shards created their worlds, they just picked up after Adonalsium left off. Honor is bad at Fortune, thus showing a certain lack of omniscience, but Odium and Cultuvation are good at it, though they both have to contend with uncertainties, both brought about by each other, and their own power (see Renarin). Don’t even get me started on Harmony. In some ways, he’s less omnipotent than other shards. He literally gets in his own way. The shards are limited by their intent, and possibly their portfolio. Beyond that, I’d argue there’s room and even ample justification for a completely different kind of atheism in the Cosmere: one born of knowledgeable disgust. A rejection of the shards as children playing with powers beyond their comprehension, or powers beyond comprehension playing with children. Given how Shards have demonstrated little influence on what happens after death, beyond a send-off and the occasional cognitive shadow creation, the mortals of the Cosmere are free to reject the Shards with little consequence, if any.

It was once just Ur, iirc

That sounds a lot like a Lightweaving. But Renarin doesn’t light-weave that much. So is it just that his light-weaving is clumsy and underdeveloped? Or has his access to fortune eclipsed his surge of illumination? Was what he used to take down Moash a Lightweaving, or something more akin to a Malatium vision? would Enlighened Spren create Surgebinders with access to 3 surges instead of two?

Oathbringer is plenty religious, but I agree, Kaladin's isn’t. Wit says Kaladin is inventing Therapy. That’s not quite the same thing as religion. Music Therapy is definitely a thing, so that’s where the Flute can play in. My first impulse on reading was that Kaladin’s arc was going to focus on leadership. Kaladin will learn to inspire others. That seems like a low bar for Kaladin tho. But his conflicts are definitely becoming increasingly psychological. Szeth, Ishar, maybe Moash. These all could stand to be the most dangerous therapy group ever. the only other possible direction I saw was Kaladin’s reflection on who he was in the moments before he swore the 4th Ideal: consumed with a desire for vengeance due to the murder of Teft. based on all this, this what I see coming: - Vyre is going to continue to engage with Kaladin in visions. Kaladin may actually turn it around and get into Moash’s head, and maybe get Moash to actually face his sins. - Szeth is going to have issues and Kaladin is going to use Music Therapy to help him. - Tezim is going try and force Syl into the physical world, but I don’t necessarily believe it will go well for her, until Kaladin overcomes the desire to go vengeance mode, speaks the 5th ideal which revives Syl and allows her to manifest physically, and snaps Ishar and maybe even Nale out of their madness, and then proceeds to start his overpowered group therapy session. or (Dark Version) Tezim kills Syl and Kaladin becomes Odium’s champion. he kills Dalinar, takes the Stormfather, and eventually ascends to become War.

If this is true, maybe Lifts bonded creature will be her new “chicken.” So, is it the radiant Spren who lives in the gem heart of the bonded creature? Will we be Sylphrena possessing a some sort of creature? the 5th ideal is also some sort of point of no return for the bond, according to Notem. If that’s because the Spren has become some sort of creature in the physical realm, that makes sense. EDIT: NVM, the Spren’s physical form IX the blade. So it’s probably some other Spren in the bonded creature’s gemheart

Cultivation was vaguely referenced in the first two books. She shows up in an OB flashback, and once in a big way in RoW. She seems to attempting to manipulate current events. She basically put Taravangian where he is. She has plans for Dalinar and Lift. However I feel like we know little to nothing of her ancient activities. All the stuff involving the Heralds and the Knights Radiant seem much more tied to Honor. The only thing I can think of is her being vaguely referenced as telling the Dawnsingers to take in the humans. Is there anything else we know of her ancient activities?

Honestly, we’ve seen her do more in recent history than in the past. As far as I can tell, we have no idea what she did back in the Shadow Days/Heraldic Epochs, etc. we don’t know of any tie to the Heralds or the Knights Radiant…… but it might be there. They were definitely aware of her based on the sculptures at the Oath Gate. That said, this is a topic unto itself. Good to know about the timing of when Ishar recovered his blade. Where do we find that out?

I agree with you, but: I will point out that Ishar, as a “Bondsmith Unchained,” does have rather immense power that we don’t necessarily understand completely. He may have been able to create that connection after all. Still think it’s the Stormfather. I suppose the real question is whether Ishar had the honor blade at that point, or Neturo son Vilano had it.