Elder

Telsin was on her way to becoming a full Avatar of Autonomy, with the Shard’s power sustaining her life force and giving her insight to the future, expanding her cognitive ability. My question is thus: could Telsin be a cognitive shadow now? The way Kelsier became ? The way Rashek could have been had he so desired? Would she want that? Would she give up after her failure? Or would she be ornery enough to stick around?

A lot! Thank you!

Thought I just had: with Trellism having failed, do you think Autonomy my try to co-opt Survivorism without involving Kelsier? I mean she likes him, but he’s kinda established himself as against Autonomy. There’s no real indication that Thaidakar gives Survivorism any particular attention. A failing that could easily be taken advantage of. Get a false prophet of the Survivor to supplant Kelsier and give the most popular religion on Scadrial to Autonomy.

I think it’s impossible to maintain the argument over the Omnipotence of Shards as well as the comparison of Adonalsium and The God Beyond and only stay within the confines of TLM spoilers. May I propose that this debate has derailed this thread enough and really ought to be moved elsewhere?

Brandon Sanderson, Rhythm of War pg 148 Brandon Sanderson, Rhythm of War, pg 1152. God Beyond is also referenced many times and is the primary deity in “Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell.” God Beyond is the only deity we know of being worshipped on Threnody. Probably the most formal example of that religion. Wayne also muses on the God Beyond during his religious mixology in Shadows of Self. Take that with salt to taste. For more info: https://coppermind.net/wiki/God_Beyond

Along these lines, I kinda wonder if Autonomy didn’t also start a seed religion with Austre on Nalthis. Doesn’t entirely match to profile, and I doubt Nalthis is a high priority for Autonomy right now.

You know, I think, especially in today’s sociology-political environment, I could create a more or less scientific religion worshipping the sun. Not that I would do this mind you, I already have my religion and Sun worship has nothing to do with it. I could make a case for the Sun being alive, though not immortal or Eternal. It was born and will die, but both events are so far outside our lifespans and history so as to render its mortality irrelevant. It is however indisputably immensely powerful, and its power can quite easily be considered the source of all life. From Sun to leaf to fruit or beast to man. Now here’s where this religion falls apart: I don’t think any scientifically minded Atheist would dispute any of the above, but there’s also nothing motivating them to care. They can nod at my insight if they like it, but whether they like it or not they can move on their way, my pseudo-religion having no impact on them whatsoever. I also am unlikely to convert a religious minded person. A. They probably already have something they believe in and will reject other beliefs with tolerance, indifference or belligerence; B. My religion still demands nothing of them. The Sun cares not what we do down below. I can make up meaning, principles, standards and stricture, but all of that is my own invention and unless I can get some influence behind it, means nothing. Tying this back in to the discussion, this is the problem of the Path. Harmony, like the Sun, does have power. However, whether it’s due to his conflicted Intent or Sazed’s religious background as keeper of all the old religions, he demands very little of his followers and encourages rival religions. People often want more structure from their religion. Unlike Kelsier, who let his followers create structures and strictures that he likely doesn’t care about, Harmony is there to prevent that from happening with his own religion. Perhaps if he put more effort in to creating a religion, he could do more with it. As it is, he’s pretty easy to dismiss as a god. Though, I think on some level, that’s what he wants. Might come back to bite him though.

We truly don’t know the circumstances here, and won’t until certain books get written and or published. I know I’ve been hesitant to talk about real life religion, and I have no desire to debate the merits or tenants of a real life religion, but, I do find this relevant: Christianity is built around the idea of an Omnipotent God willingly becoming mortal and allowing himself to be killed by mortals. Rather specific circumstances, not exactly the same results, and it didn’t exactly take, but it’s there. Note, I’m not saying that’s what happened with Adonalsium. I have my own theory that may or may not work. We’re probably a long way off from the when the relevant books will be published for this. In the meantime, more along the point of the original post, I have been contemplating Survivorism more. It seems to me that Survorism is the categorical rejection of Shards as gods. Gave Entrone was a Survivorist based on his conversation with Marasi, but in the face of the Kandra he declared that he worshipped Industry and Progress. Granted he’s also religiously complicated for his involvement with Autonomy. They know that Harmony exists and bears the Shards of Ruin and Preservation. They have and revere the words of founding. Survivorism still would just rather follow Kelsier. They’d still rather follow his purported ideals and the moral structure of his church than follow a more powerful god who demands little of them. There’s a fair debate as to whether the Survivor or Harmony does more for them. I also wonder if Autonomy might not want to simply recruit Kelsier as a new avatar, maintaining the Church of the Survivor. It might make for a decent peace settlement. If Kelsier can be invested that way. I have other thoughts on that.

네, 쩝쌀떡 맞아요. They should do nicely.

Pajeon are freaking delicious. 맛있는 음식. Also eaten at the new year traditionally. Also a good basis for that 2nd one. I feel like paste in the center could also be a Korean thing. Not necessarily for pancakes.

Is Health even a part of Kandra life? Do they have “Health” to store? I’m not certain if Health is a relevant concept in their lives…. I mean would they get sick when they store health? Can they get sick?

It seems Odium retains its other restrictions as well: No leaving the Roshar System, and some sort of limit on violence it can inflict on people, particularly Hoid, though I’m kinda fuzzy on the latter.

Interesting point. I honestly don’t know…. Sazed could make a set of Shard level metal minds. Those could be very interesting. this also brings a bit of a non-sequitur to mind: Harmony’s power is in the Mists, just like Preservation’s used to be. On the other hand, Harmonium reacts explosively to water, including water vapor. So technically Harmony can make Harmonium explode……. Maybe the Mists are more of the Preservation Side, while the Metal is more the Ruin side.

Interesting, and I’d be eager to try it. Building on that, I’ve seen a few different approaches to fantasy recipes: 1. Trying to make in-bookfoods using real food analogues that are decently close to what’s seem in the books. So you might see rice substituted for Tallew Grain. A lot of shell fish in Rosharan recipes etc. 2. Making up foods based on real world dishes and lightly using themes from the books to give them flair. On the one hand, my original pitch was definitely more along the lines of version 1, while I’d argue yours is more based on 2. But on the other hand, these are hardly mutually exclusive. Both can be fun. I find myself debating whether Chull would be better represented by crab/lobster meat, or in the way your recipe describes. Before your recipe, I would have gone with the former. But now, I realize I need not limit my thinking so much.

I own cookbooks based on Star Wars, Warcraft, and Elder Scrolls, and I imagine some day I’ll get more. Do you know what I want? I want a book full of the tastes of the Cosmere. Give me recipes for Horneater Stew, all 10 of the pancakes they eat in Yeddaw. Scadrian Bayraps, Chouta (definitely chouta!). throw in flavor text on customs and a little bit about the places these foods come from. Any particular Cosmere foods you’d want to see?

I’m not sure if the pancakes are more like what we in the U.S. call pancakes (or flapjacks, what-have-you), or if they’re like Korean pancakes, which are more of a savory affair involving onion (quite delicious). and yes, Dragonsteel should put out a Cosmere cookbook. I own cookbooks based on Azeroth (Warcraft), Skyrim (Elder Scrolls) and a Galaxy Far Far Away. I need one from the Cosmere.

Just throwing this up as a reference as to what this thread was originally about.

I don’t think we do. That said, it is clear that God Metals can be used in multiple ways. We’ve seen multiple God-Metals metals used in Hemalurgy, Allomancy, technology, explosives (including wmds), Fabrial Mechanics, and in weaponry, both as pure manifestation and incorporated into spears and daggers. While I’d argue against universal application for each God Metal, it certainly wouldn’t surprise me if some had Feruchemical applications.

And we’ve officially crossed into debating real world theology. If we’re gonna do this, tread carefully. Personally, I’d prefer we didn’t.

I feel like this may be getting too close to a real religious debate. I’m not saying anyone’s broken any rules, but this feels way too hot. At least to me. To get to the root of this tangeant/derailment, I think there’s enough WoB’s floating around that state that the author’s intent is to never reveal anything that completely destroys or vindicates any character’s personal theology. Therefore, Atheists like Jasnah, believers in the God Beyond like Silence, and Survivorists like Marasi, rusts even people who believe in the Lord Ruler like the Yomen’s will always find something that will validate each of their beliefs. They will also find things to cast doubt. Therefore, there absolutely can be Cosmere aware atheists, believers in the God Beyond, etc. etc. I feel comfortable enough talking about real religion to say this: People believe in whatever they choose to believe, whether or not evidence supports, refutes, or exists. And Brandon Sanderson has been very respectful of that in the Cosmere. I can see that here. People are bringing religious passion and stubbornness to this discussion, and I don’t think it’s helping anything. Some believe Shards are omnipotent, despite any argument or evidence to the contrary. Some find the Shards utterly unworthy of worship and reverence. Some advocate for the God Beyond. Some for Adonalsium. I would contend that Sanderson has given some evidence to validate all these viewpoints, room to disprove them all, and is trying to respect his character’s views no matter what. I’m not accusing anyone of blatant disrespect, but I just don’t like the tension here. Let’s handle this discussion of fictional theology better than some of the real life ones I’ve seen.

A Shard with Vessel is limited by the vessel because the Vessel lacks the mental capacity to fully comprehend what the Shard is capable of. A Shard without vessel is limited because the Shard lacks the mental capacity to accomplish anything worthwhile. If I’m doing the vague infinite impossible math right, a Vessel is a force multiplier, not a force limiter. However you want to define Omnipotence, all of this highlights how limited and dangerous Omnipotence without commensurate Omniscience is. I’d rather have an All-knowing source of knowledge and wisdom to learn from than an All-Powerful wrecking ball that barely knows what it’s doing. Cosmere seems to have a handful of the latter (assuming Endless Power satisfies your requirements for omnipotence). Therefore, I don’t think anyone would be deluded or ignorant if they knowingly rejected the Shards as Gods. Now tying this all back into the original topic, this is actually why Sazed made a better world than Rashek. Sazed knew more. His capacity had already been expanded by his copper minds. I doubt there’s enough copper on Scadrial to truly match a Shard, but he’s the best they’ve got. Therefore, Harmony still being revered as god is still a worthy choice. Survivorism has less to do with Kelsier’s power and more to do with the Religion’s morality. Survivorists acknowledge Harmony’s power, but they like the ideals a morals of the Survivor more (granted, I’m not sure they really have any clue as to Kelsier’s actual morals). This makes sense. In life, Kelsier did far more to inspire people than Sazed did, so his memory has left a stronger impression. That’s not going away. This highlights that people generally follow their god more out of faith in their values than just because of power. The question is: is Thaidakar living up to the legacy of “The Survivor?” I’m not certain. We still don’t know near enough about Sliverism. Rashek was a terrible person, who did an insane amount of ecological and social damage to the world, but somehow the Yomens seem to be good people and have fostered a viable religion. We still need to know more.

Another disruption to the bond between Autonomy and Bavadin: Autonomy is gunning for Harmony, but Harmony’s stated goal is to foster free will, or in other words, autonomy. She’s messing with other Shards based on the vessel’s fear and interpretation of a very loose agreement (one Honor doesn’t care about and that she doesn’t think stops her from undermining Shards), not necessarily based on Autonomy’s intent. In other words, Autonomy is undermining someone who restrains his power to support Autonomy. There’s certainly wiggle room, interpretation of intent. But that’s at least two things about Bavadin’s interpretation here that could be considered hypocritical. I imagine many of the vessels carry their Shards poorly (Rayse and Ati both seem to have had shortcomings in this area). Is it all that surprising that Bavadin could be fumbling it?

Going through TLM for the second time, and in the beginning, it’s suggested that a Trellium Spike allowed a Hemalurgic Bloodmaker to heal even when according to an experienced bloodmaker he shouldn’t be able to: the ability to heal head trauma even without consciousness. this may be a function of Autonomy allowing powers to function of their own volition.

A thought Harmonium is not an alloy of Lerasium and Atium. Perhaps the first metalminds were the alloy of Lerasium and Atium. The Ancient Terris did know both Preservation and Ruin. Either way, I still believe that Feruchemy is gained via Feruchemy, no need to burn anything. Whether it was Lerasium or Leratium, in my mind, the first Feruchemists invested their spirit into the Godmetal, and when they drew it back out, their souls were expanded. that would also explain why Kelsier can’t do it himself: he’s already using Hemalurgy to pin himself to his body. He can’t invest himself into something else. Just a hunch mind you.