Elder

1. I promise you, I’m not. Nor is that argument worth anything since there are no unsplintered shards without vessels. As for the Splintered ones, such as the Dor and the Stormfather: well, a Shard with a vessel literally sent the Stormfather crying. I can’t imagine the Dor would do any better, especially since all it has is rudimentary emotions. 2. Let’s consult the dictionary here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/omnipotent Each Shard’s Authority or Influence is extremely limited. That’s what Harmony and Autonomy were fighting over. taking the link: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/almighty Like I said. Not one Shard qualifies. We’re not talking about rulers who ultimately derive their power from the people (and who can and will be overthrown if the people will it, no matter their sovereignty) We’re talking about Godhood. An almighty God cannot be overthrown. Cannot be destroyed by a rival, for that God has none,

Like I said. Debateable. Here’s what it comes down to: Shards are power. They have some knowledge, I would argue a memory. But it’s not omniscient at all. I’m not sure Omniscience is possible in the Cosmere. If power is what you call God, Shards may qualify. I don’t think anyone in the Cosmere could be blamed for having a higher standard.

Ok, I honestly think you don’t understand the word “Omniscient.” So let’s set the record straight here. 3 Attributes of God: 1. Omnipotent: All-Powerful. A. God has Infinite Power. B. God has power over all things, without Rival or Superior. This is what we’ve been debating. You are focused on (A). The rest of us are pointing out that you’re overlooking (B), which I’ve been referring to as Sovereignty. 2. Omniscient: All-Knowing. God knows All Things. You keep tying this to the concept of sovereignty, but these are two distinct concepts. You make no effort to try and prove this because the Shards have demonstrated over and over again that they are not all knowing, and can even be deceived. 3. Omnipresent: God is everywhere (and simultaneously nowhere). Harmony does make a claim to this in SoS, but I find this claim debateable. I’m not sure that one can necessarily say the Shards are on worlds other than their claimed domain. Could be wrong about this.

Harmony can do both. That’s my point. He has a power that each of his shards were missing, but they don’t interfere with him using them. Preservation’s intent doesn’t stop Harmony from whispering in people’s minds, and Ruin’s intent doesn’t keep him from picking up their thoughts. In this case, the intent never stopped the separate shards. They just never had those abilities to begin with. Omnipotence means that it’s ALL your domain. Nothing outside. The fact that a dictator doesn’t have power outside their domain is what makes them not omnipotent. Having to contend with rivals encroaching on your domain is a slap in the face to any claim of supremacy. Omnipotence is power over ALL things. Some of the Shards don’t even have that kind of mastery over one world, let alone everything.

1. I’m pointing out there’s more to omnipotence then you realize. I’m also acknowledging your viewpoint and attacking it with its own logic. 2. You’re making a mistake in vocabulary. Omniscience has nothing to do with Supremacy. Omniscience is synonymous with being All-Knowing. Supremacy is a part of being all-powerful, aka omnipotent. 3. Clearly, like anyone debating religion, we’re capable of getting different messages from the same passage. However, I stand by my interpretation. It fits better with the context, given Harmony’s struggle with opposing Intents and Odium’s hatred and prejudice against other Shards. 4. Caught your edit, and you’re missing my point. Those powers aren’t inherently tied to the intent of the Shards. If they were, Harmony would have the same troubles with them as he has with everything else. Evidently, there’s more to the differences between shards than intent. also worth pointing out, technically, Harmony isn’t infinite times two. Even now, within him, Ruin is stronger than Preservation, as a significant amount of Preservation is still tied up in the Humans of Scadrial. I’m no expert in Infinite-based math (I’d truly love to meet someone who was), but I honestly think that there may be something to it. You’d need that fraction of infinity to keep up its influence in an a population with exponential growth. The fact that Ruin can be stronger than Preservation shows that somehow, 1xinfinite > .97 infinite, or whatever the ratio may be. As such, 2xinfinite may still have something on 1xinfinite, and 16xinfinite greater still.

It’s been a while, and I listened to the book so I don’t have access to the written words for reference, but I remember Moonlight’s denunciation of Autonomy’s hypocrisy. How her brand of individualism ends up creating more conformity. It leads me to wonder: how strong is Bavadin’s hold on Autonomy? If she’s creating effects that contradict the Intent of the Shard, is it possible she’s starting to lose her grip just a bit? Could she end up being supplanted? if so, I wonder if Kelsier might be a better fit.

It only doesn’t work if you reject all definition outside your own. Nor are you really defining Omnipotence the same way Abraham did. Abraham’s God has Supremacy, and is quite assertive of that supremacy. Abraham’s God may very well be limited by his own Law and Morality, but there’s no ability outside his reach, no god greater, lesser or equal who has power He has not. Sorry to burst your bubble there. You can’t really compare Shards to the God of Abraham. They’re essentially a polytheistic pantheon. as to your reference to Rhythm of War, let’s go over what he actually says: I took the liberty of emphasizing parts. An omnipotent God could face any threat. Though, Odium does seem to be able to fight at a 2 v 1 disadvantage reliably. Sazed’s situation isn’t a lack of power, but he has to contend with opposing intents. He does however have abilities that Preservation and Ruin lacked, such as the ability to have a two way mental conversation. Note the extra emphasis on the word always. Sometimes combining shards does lead to greater power. Just not always. Odium, due to its hateful nature, cannot abide the idea of changing what it is. Its intent would rather be pure. A form of bigotry to other powers if you will. And your “essentially equal” section. Putting aside debate over how the word “essentially” is being used, the sentence still suggests that merging shards would produce more power. It’s just that Odium doesn’t feel he needs it. Based on Frost’s letter, I’d argue that Rayse would have benefited greatly from having some of the other factors that gave God’s divine hatred context.

All about defining omnipotence. There are different ways of measuring power. In terms of having an everlasting supply of power, they have it. By other measures they do not. Also I was pointing out that it may be more than just intent that limits shards by highlighting the complimentary limitations that Preservation and Odium dealt with in realm of communication. Powers that Harmony has unrestricted access to, despite also having new limitations from where his Shards’ intent conflicts. Just to get your take on it: Was Adonalsium more powerful than the individual Shards? If anything could be more powerful than a Shard, then a Shard is not omnipotent. I suppose that’s what it comes down to. These Shards were not originally separate as far as we know, and their separation may be what has imposed limiting Intent and withheld certain powers from each of them.

Stormfather does refute Odium’s claim there.

When and where did Brandon say that Adonalsium had no rivals? The Aethers and those who worship them might have something to say about that. Going on with definitions of omnipotence, there’s more evidence that certain shards didn’t have access to certain powers. For instance, Ruin could talk put thoughts in people’s heads (mostly the mentally ill or those who were hemalurgically spiked) but could not hear unless they spoke aloud. Preservation had access to their thoughts, but couldn’t speak back. In Shadows of Self, Harmony confirms that this was a function of the shards, not a limitation imposed by the vessel. Seeing as how he can do both, it stands to reason that this was a matter of abilities simply not being in the toolkit of the separate shards, since the shards do not interfere with him using both abilities simultaneously. So in terms of omnipotence: Shards do have infinite power inasmuch as their power never ceases to exist and is renewable. Shards do have limitations on their power based on their intent. This can be considered a moral restraint attached to compatibility/worthiness to use power. Shards do not have access to all powers, and it isn’t just intent limiting them. In some cases it just isn’t in their wheelhouse. Individual shards do not have Supremacy, despite some of their best efforts.

Based on the Epilogue at least, it seems to me that Odium’s game is going to be based on the champion he chooses.

Or neither die.

Nice catch. That could do nicely.

Maybe originally Threnodites became cognitive shadows deliberately, with all the ritual and tradition, etc. Their dead revered. then things went to (the forests of) hell. The story also mentions the “deepest ones.” Those might have something to do with it too. Probably not theFused.

Irrelevant. Sounds like he was begging off the question to avoid spoilers. Just my take though.

My question: are the shades manifestations on Ambition’s investiture? Or Odium’s? We know that Odium was “Weakened by his battles in the past,” (Rhythm of War, pg 1190). On the other hand, in Arcanum Unbounded, they refer to big chunks of Ambition being ripped up. Violent ghosts who frenzy on bloodshed sound much more hateful than ambitious to me. Maybe Odium expended investiture to hurt Ambition there, but only just enough to invest the Forests of Hell, while Ambition’s mortal wound created the Evil that overtook the mainland. Or maybe it’s all Ambition but it’s lost its intent. as for the original shades, what if originally it was just hyper-violent investiture gaining rudimentary intelligence, but it started taking the form of the people it killed, making cognitive shadows.

I agree Taravangian is going to try and force Dalinar to breach contract and forfeit, setting Odium free. So let’s look at the terms they have to meet: Giving us the rules of engagement and the location. Giving us the time Indicating one of the intended Champions, though this may be less than binding. Final Draft, enumeration added. In order to get free, Odium must trick Dalinar into violating one of those 3 rules. Rule #1. To the death. Of course, this can mean a few things. One champion is going to kill the other is obvious, but there are alternatives. It can just as easily be the loser is executed, by either human or divine action. Checkers to the Death! Literal Breakneck! Sometimes the book makes this seem less like a duel and more like a contest of Bondsmithery. Either way, this plays into the child theory nicely. Rule #2. The date. If someone is late or absent, that could do it. Kinda boring. There are other reasons I don’t think this is it. Rule #3. Kinda complex, lots of stuff to play with here: a. Providing a willing champion. If one side fails to provide a champion? Forfeit. If one of the champions is unwilling? Forfeit. Dalinar intends to represent himself. It would be right up in Taravangian’s wheelhouse to compromise Dalinar’s will to fight. This does fit the child theory as well. b. Location. Again, possible forfeit if a champion is absent. Boring. c. No roughing up the opposition’s champion. Lots of play here. Pick a champion who is so provocative that someone from Dalinar’s camp attacks prematurely. Storm’s, pick a champion who Dalinar’s side unwittingly hurts within the 10 days. It’s a fertile ground to play with. When all’s said and done, it seems like Taravangian’s trick will be in his own choice of Champion. That’s what he poked Wit’s brain on after all. Could be the child. Could be a provocateur. Could be someone Odium throws at the Radiants during the 10 days so that they’ll breach contract without knowing it.

@bmcclure7, is this the WoB you’re looking for?

Depends on how you want to define Death on this level. I mean death for Spren isn’t the same as death for humans. I imagine Shards would define Death differently even still. Calling splintering, the breaking up of power, death isn’t unreasonable. I suppose for me it would depend: do the Splintered Shards retain the Intent of the Shard?

Worth pointing out, Atium was a renewable resource, if only an extremely slowly renewed resource. After being expended, It reformed in geodes at the Pits of Hathsin. Even when Kelsier broke the pits, it was noted that this would set back Atium production by centuries, not destroy it forever. Sazed’s ascension did that. Same deal with Preservation’s power. It could be used and exhausted, but over the centuries it would be renewed at Ati’s prison. I suppose that’s the purpose of Perpendicularities: to recover power after it’s been expended.

Both Adonalsium and the God Beyond need more explanation before I comment on whether they correspond very well to the Abrahamic God. Both seem to be monotheistic, but that’s all I got. Adonalsium is credited as the Creator of the Cosmere. God beyond seems to be the one who has an all-encompassing plan for the Cosmere. I’m also not entirely sure where the concept of the God Beyond came from. Is this Dalinar’s faith that if Honor wasn’t truly God then there must be someone somewhere who is? Could the people of Threnody have a similar faith sustaining them through the fallout of Ambition’s death? Is it a shared speculative faith by those who feel there must be something better than the Shards?

Actually, my grasp of Sliverism is weak here. Do they worship Rashek? Or Marsh? Obviously they don’t use either of those names. The irony that Ironeyes is associated with the religion he specifically set out to destroy.

I’d say Sliverists don’t lack for validation of their God’s existence. Everyone believes in iron eyes. People simply take issue as to whether he should be revered. I’d still point to the prophecy regarding Harmony’s influence expanding: Harmony isn’t exactly beloved. He takes such a hands off approach that most revere Kelsier over Harmony. If he becomes less harmonious, apparently he’ll be more beloved.

True, but such gods can be quite safely ignored or rejected. Especially in the Cosmere. It is quite acceptable even to some of the shards to look at them, consider them unworthy of worship, less than godly, and move on. Granted, Harmony is new. I can’t find any particular reference to anyone worshipping or even knowing about Endowment on Nalthis, (that may be due to the unselfish intent of her shard). While I can’t speak for the ones we haven’t seen, The ones who reign by fear might take issue with it. I suppose @bmcclure7 that is where we differ on the definition of Atheism. For me, Faith in or belief in God is more than mere acknowledgment of his existence. When my wife says she believes in me, she’s not acknowledging my existence. In a fantasy world like the Cosmere, where physical evidence of the Shards is there to be found, such acknowledgement is just as meaningless. It would require a belief that such gods are worthy of worship and devotion as gods. That these gods are worth believing in. That remains a personal choice, in both this world and the Cosmere. In my estimation, most if not all Shards in the Cosmere are not. In regards to your definition of Omnipotence, as I understand it, you see it as infinite power. I’ve been defining it as limitless power. I can acknowledge yours as being valid, but I don’t have to agree with it. Nothing in religion has just one definition. I would suggest that there’s one more definition of omnipotence that I think we could agree on: supreme power. None of the Shards have quite established that, though a couple seem to be trying. Their failures seem to be telling. One more indicator that the Shards aren’t omniscient: you can’t lie to a an Omniscient being. You can’t hide things. You can’t fool them. Mortals have been doing that a lot in these books. Lack of lack of Omniscience is a bigger disqualification for me. I’d be even more bothered by an omnipotent being who doesn’t have commensurate knowledge and wisdom than an omniscient being with less power. and of course there’s omnipresence, which we haven’t bothered discussing. None of the Shards are. Jasnah is exactly the sort of Atheist I’d expect in the Cosmere. In regards to Kelsier, I’d argue that many RL atheists would say they believe in themselves instead of God. That would describe Kelsier quite well. Especially in everything he’s done.

1. I wasn’t aware of any indication that Nalthis wasn’t a world of Adonalsium. As far as I was aware, Scadrial was the only one. By creator, I meant creator of worlds if I wasn’t clear. As far as I know, it took two shards to make one world. Two to create one sentient life form on that world. 2. If the Shard limits itself due to intent, then the Shard isn’t omnipotent. Are you sure it was Tanavast who had a problem with Fortune? Or Honor? when he confessed that Cultivation was better at it than he was, he didn’t call her Koravellium. Either way, he was expressly not omniscient. Cultivation admitted to not knowing things, making her by definition not omniscient. 3. I would point to John Fry’s atheism as a refutation of this. in the Cosmere: Era 1 Kelsier. Obviously doesn’t believe in the god placed before him. Through no small amount of deception, he puts himself up as an alternative god. Upon death, the first thing he does is punch Preservation in the face, and gets front row seats to just how not omnipotent Leras has become. Even in era two, bring much more Cosmere aware, he’s a friend to Sazed, not a worshipper by any stretch of the imagination. By this point I’d say Jasnah believes in a similar sort of atheism, and Kaladin is agnostic. The Shards are just shy of perfect, clearly not omniscient or omnipotent. They’re powerful enough to be worshipped as gods, but not enough to really be God, despite what they may think of themselves. Getting back on track. Harmony isn’t widely worshipped on Scadrial. Kelsier is worshipped on two continents under different names, for all he cares. Nor is Harmony’s power dependent on worship. I can’t say anything has changed in that regard. Might change in the future though. Discord is supposed to be the beloved god.