Elder

Something that came up on Facebook on this subject: Other than killing Teft, (which was for the benefit of breaking Kaladin), Moash’s more personal killings, Elhokar and Roshone, both happened as those two were in the process of changing. Elhokar just as he was about to achieve Radiance, Roshone as he was rather poetically trying to free prisoners. Many, myself included, can empathize with these killings, and as such are more lenient about them. I’m far more upset by killing Teft and Phendorana and the attempts to drive Kaladin to Suicide. This may be a rather counterproductive mistake. Moash’s key flaw is his refusal to believe that people, especially himself, can change. It may very well be that in order to accept his ability to change, he’ll have to acknowledge Elhokar and Roshone’s ability to change. That they were in fact changing. This is going to hurt. A lot. This isn’t just guilt. This is humility directed toward people who wronged him grievously. I’ll admit I’m not sure I’d be up for that challenge. If explored, this arc could bring in a particular Dawnshard, thinking about it.

Does Hoid know and help Liss? Liss has a Shardblade….. Azure’s sword isn’t a Shardblade. We can go into what her sword is if you want, but it’s definitely not a Shardblade. Liss’s definitely is, and the differences between the two are relevant. A Shardblade is easy to hide, Azure’s sword is not. Nor are we sure that sword burns out eyes the way Liss has to cover up. also, I could be wrong, but Azure doesn’t seem the type to be an assassin for hire.

Couldn’t resist that one… could you. lol

I loved A. That the Stormfather was totally on board and B. It was a very simple short ceremony.

Smoker…… suits me well enough.

The ghosts are said to haunt the high storms, and it’s mentioned in the Way of Kings IIRC. Granted, there’s a lot of investiture being thrown around in those, so a cognitive shadow in there would hardly surprise me. There’s also some weird giant Spren, maybe great shell action going on? IIRC, Dalinar flips one off in one of his Oathbringer flashbacks.

One possible extension of this idea: the Malwish definitely personify their ships. Brunstell and Wilg run on Ettmetal technology, which means they’re partially made out of invested materials. The ships might have some extra Identity as well Granted, I may be reading too much into it. There are always stories of sailors personifying their ships, typically as women. But maybe it’s just that I’m listening to it on audiobook, but Allik seems to talk about Wilg in particular as if he and that flying dinghy were a team.

One Sanderson sized book to make the changes…. But he might only begin his process by the end of the book. Or he might not turn it around at all. Either way, Moash is setting himself up to be ideologically destroyed. That’s the stakes he’s created. That will be quite satisfying, It will be up to him as to whether he can survive that.

Depends on what he’d actually be doing as a herald I suppose. Who knows how the situation will change. But good point,

So here’s my question: what does Moash’s redemption even look like: A. Let’s start with the motivation. What would actually shock Moash’s moral senses enough for him to change his ways? He’s already had Odium’s Gift lifted twice, and each time he ran back to his master with his tail between his legs. That said, neither Renarin nor Navani really had any interest in rehabilitation for Moash. So here’s 2 scenarios where I think it could happen: 1. He keeps on attacking Kaladin’s dreams, but Kaladin fights back, and utterly defeats Moash psychologically and philosophically. Maybe he says his 5th ideal. Moash gets the gift lifted. And then Kaladin reaches out his hand, and pucks up the broken Moash. That might be a turning point if Moash lets it happen, which would be a first. Also, I’m not sure I’d blame Kaladin if he didn’t reach out. 2. Moash somehow or other actually succeeds in breaking Kaladin. And then he realizes, it doesn’t make anything better. Moash is still is unsatisfied, and he can’t figure out why, so he seeks out answers that eventually lead to him making better choices. Honestly, I hate this idea. It could be rather devastating. B. Then there’s the timing of it. It could be he’s at rock bottom now, and is ready to start making changes at the beginning of the book. Or it could be more climactic, with the whole Kaladin’s 5th ideal tie-in. Or something in between. C. Finally, to what end? In many cases, these redeemed fictional characters die as part of their redemption. Your Darth Vaders, you Kylo Rens, etc. I prefer making them live with it. Your Angels, your Teal’cs, etc. of course technically, Moash could do both. He could die. But, carrying Jezrien’s blade, and having killed Jezrien, he might end up filling a job opening. It certainly wouldn’t happening on its own mind you. Someone would have to intervene.

I’ve been thinking about the Terris and the Malwish. Specifically the Terris Enclave. The Malwish, to some extent, revere metalborn, and I imagine Feruchemists in particular. Most of the Elendel Basin is freaked out about the Malwish, but the Terris Enclave is somewhat outside of the rest of Elendel Society. They may not necessarily share in the militarism, being mostly pacifist. That said, individuals like Adawathwyn may prove me wrong. Then there’s the legend of Old Terris, a lost land of cold climate….. kinda like Southern Scadrial. Makes me wonder how the Terris Enclave will react to heightening tensions between Elendel and the Malwish. Will some of them seek out the southern continent, looking for a land more like their ancestral home? Will they become a persecuted minority again as they try to remain neutral amid ever heightening tensions?

I agree. I suppose it might also depend on how much the Intent and the Host agree on the matter. I could see Kelsier stealing Avatarhood against Bavadin’s wishes but in accordance with Autonomy’s Intent. Based on Patji’s letter to Hoid, the Avatar’s aren’t of one mind. I think Kelsier could impress Patji by surviving. He could probably impress the Obradai avatar just by talking about how much Hoid sucks….. ok I kid.

So I have a question: what guilt is Moash trying to hide from with Odium’s gift? He de doesn’t have the same kind of body count Szeth or Dalinar. I have trouble believing he feels any guilt for killing Elhokar in battle. That was traumatic for us and for Kaladin, not for Moash. Sure, he feels bad for killing Teft, but he accepted Odium’s gift well before that. No, the only thing I can think of is he has trouble with the idea that he let Kaladin down. And it seems Odium’s gift doesn’t even resolve that problem for him.

Telsin wasn’t fully invested yet. I wonder if the process isn’t more permanent once completed. Also, seeing as how Avatars can happen inadvertently, I wouldn’t be surprised if they could happen against the Vessel’s will. Therefore, I think it within the realm of possibility for Kelsier to steal godhood, again.

I mean Telsin was spiked, didn’t stop her. Yeah, he’d probably rather kill an avatar and take the power. And since he’s fairly compatible with Autonomy’s intent, he could probably do it. He doesn’t really have the connection, but that’s hardly stopped him before.

How much of Kelsier’s difficulty with Preservation was his lack of a body, and how much of it was his incompatibility with Preservation’s intent? I’m confident both were factors, but I feel like the incompatibility was a bigger issue. The same might be said of the spike. That said, Autonomy seems to be cool with Hemalurgy. If Kelsier were to pull a Pa’alm and use a Trellium Spike, that could probably fix that issue nicely. My question now is: would Kelsier accept avatarhood from Autonomy, or could he possibly take it? Kill an avatar, take their power… Sounds like a very Kelsier thing to do.

Moash, with encouragement from Odium, has convinced himself that no one could possibly do or be better than he has. The problem is, Kaladin proves this idea wrong regularly. Moash has to eliminate Kaladin so he can keep deluding himself. Sad really.

Szeth never tried to justify himself murders. Never tried to numb himself to the suffering he caused. Closest he got was believing his murders were his fault for being Truthless. Losing that excuse broke him.

So closer to an awakened object than a fabrial. Which makes sense really. 1. The Scadrian Sub-Astral isn’t populated by cognitive entities, unlike Roshar. Therefore there’s no one really to press into service like that. 2.Feruchemy is fairly similar to awakening in that a human invests an object. There are mechanical differences.

I imagine they already have a similar situation with the blessing of potency, referring to bone strength and pewter. That said, Vin used duralumin and pewter to reinforce her bones and mitigate a strike from a thug in WoA, came out with cracked ribs instead of broken.

For what it’s worth, they could fix broken bones with F-Gold. I suppose the question is, what does a Kandra in poor health look like?

BLUF: I propose that Malwish Medallions and Metalborn Tech is based on living investiture, like fabrials and invested objects. In another thread, I saw this WOB posted. This got me thinking....... in Rhythm of War, we learned that Soulcasters are actually spren (and technically, all fabrials are different ways of putting spren to work). Metal Jewelry that grants people powers......... What if the Malwish Medallions are just another form invested life. Either invested objects that have gained, if not sentience, enough life and identity to give their users power, or metal (being a form of investiture) that has gained enough investiture and sentience to actually have life and identity.

Cool thread. I hope you don't mind, I made a table/matrix based on it. Kinda a work in progress. I want to use color coding or something to classify what kind of metals are what (Internal, External, Pushing, Pulling, etc). Twinborn Table.xlsx

Ok, that gives me a weird thought: maybe you could make a super-keyed metal mind that you could only use while tapping aluminum. Which sounds weird to point of paranoia. Maybe a crazy Feruchemist who doesn’t trust himself unless he’s even more himself than ever…….. yeah. Just thinking about that makes my head hurt.

Yeah, I’m not sure what you’d even use stored identity for. A way of being more yourself? Kinda hard to measure that. Possibly as a way of resisting being soulcast or forged? Maybe, but the idea that it’s a one way street isn’t without merit.