KaladinWorldsinger

Ok, Since we have had enough time theorize about the major things from RoW, I thought it would be good to make a thread about the smaller details that doesnt have much discussion. Also, I just finished a reread and I really wanna talk about it. This is a bunch of theory fodder for future speculation too 1) Navani hears a pure note even before meeting raboniel. Even rushu How?? And Rushu?? What about Dalinar? 2)Navani created light She is only singing the rhythm of honor, and singing the rhythm redirects the investiture. Is the sibling using a vacuum tube somewhere? How is light being created? Is there some stormlight being redirected in this scene? 3)Taravangian's Bravery 4 times! 2 times italicized and at the end, the last 'bravery' is separated from all the other passions. Makes no sense to me, why is this important? 4) Taravangian never reveals how he knows szeth's dad died 5) Hmm interesting, Gav's laughter hurts szeth and szeth feels he is a danger to gav. Hmmmmm 6) Wonder what horrible things they did? 7) Close to what, Teft?? Did moash kill another amazing radiant swearing an ideal and getting redemption moment?? 8)The Tukari are wreathed in shadows for some reason 9)Odium's connection with Dalinar grows? Dalinar hasn't been doing anything to serve odium, then his connection should be weakening instead of growing, right? 10) Stone of Ten dawns I am calling it right now, Ba Ado Mishram is trapped in the stone of ten dawns. Purely based on the name 11) Raboniel wanted Venli to find the listeners, which Venli noticed and brings up many times. Raboniel died before Venli found them, but we never find out her plan? The sleeping radiants were revealed to be part of her plan to test anti-stormlight on radiant spren. But we never find out why she manipulated Venli. 12) Lift could use regrowth in Urithiru but not abrasion. The fact that abrasion doesnt work means that its not lifelight or lift's weirdness thats the cause, instead it seems that progression is really cultivation's truest surge, like adhesion to honor. Then Why do the fused have progression and not adhesion? 13) Urithiru is original? This is suuuuuper interesting, as we know that Urithiru was placed in the place 'closest to honor'. The valley of the nightwatcher also happens to be nearby. These mountains are special by themselves 14) Axindweth knew jaxlim's mental illness. The only way that makes sense to me is through future sight and fortune. Anyone more well versed in mistborn tell me if feruchemists can have an idea of the future? 15)Szeth gets shocked when he sees that ishar is a shin-like man. Dalinar doesnt think much about, bu we know that shin are the people who remember the history of the world better than everyone. I have a feeling that this revelation is ground breaking for szeth right now. 16) Very good question Venli, why didn't they? workform and warform are not forms of power, so there isn't a reason not to remember how to get them. 17) The titles of the 5 parts of RoW combined give the ketek by el at the end. It is clearly talking about urithiru, which shows us that el cares about urithiru and thinks of it as a home. Thats a problem 18) Venli suggests that the listeners knew what would happen. We know they knew about the everstorm, did they really know what was going to happen? 20) Jasnah says she could be the last alethi ruler. Is that foreshadowing for back 5? A democratic revolution? 21) Cultivation + Odium = Freedom That is how i read it anyway 22) This kind of language is only used with Dalinar, with his warmth that he thinks of as a god. What is interesting is that that Renarin is causing this, which is a first. Maybe something to do with the spiritual realm? 23) A Death rattle solved?? This is when Jasnah goes to war. Her description is very suspiciously similar to a death rattle So now we know what the army is that the ten radiants are facing. Its the singer army. with maybe some humans(iriali) wow this became huuuge. these are all the obscure details I could find in the Book. Did i miss any?

I definitely think that syl will become human(or siah aimian or whatever), it is the natural completion of her arc. She might even have adhd now that she would become physical. I am interested in what would happen to kaladin's powers then

I haven't read mistborn era 2, but from what I read about the cosmere, I find it very unlikely that free will can be removed like that.

I pretty much disagree with every single one of these, lol. The shards themselves haven't shown these kinds of powers to us, so I doubt a bondsmith could. A bondsmith has powers related to connection, not every concievable thing you can do with a connection. For example, odium could not do much to kaladin even after getting a viable connection with him thru moash. Infact he can't seem to do much to dalinar, and they have a strong connection. Even if shards have extra restrictions, one thing everything is forgetting about is that free will and intent are pretty big. The thrill can't make you choose to use it, you choose to give into the Thrill. Most of your suggestions I think violate that free will

While I don't think highstorms are honor's perpendicularity, i will point out that the highstorms are not regular, as you need stormwardens to predict it's coming with complicated mathematics. But the weeping is regular, every 500 days i think

20 years after the book elantris, a huge Tsunami Hits the coastline of Arelon. King Raoden is reported to have screamed, "You gotta be kidding-" before his disappearance. Queen Sarene is reported to have said, " I told him we should just relocate" for the rest of her life

Lol, I just kept writing all the minor details that I could think of and slowly it became really huuge. When I was writing the thread, I wasn't thinking about Jasnah or Amaram or liss. This post helped me remember a lot of things about Gav. But none of my predictions reveal things that are super relevant to the story now(except Axindweth). Instead it just makes character motivations in the past make more sense. So that's why I say they won't be juicy. But seeing the start of the diagram will still be hype enough. My main caveat here is the release of preview chapters waay before the actual book. That gives a lot of time for people to dissect each and every word. I don't know if the knowledge gav has is a drop in the bucket, cause he is connected to almost everything ( maybe even ba ado misshram)

That is interesting, but i doubt Bondsmiths have that power over the voidbringers. Seems too convenient. It would make more sense that he can change it only for radiants. Maybe it's just connection shenanigans. Who is to say that connecting something to the ground is a Bondsmith unchained only power? Maybe a strong enough Bondsmith can do it

So everyone is expecting some sort of juicy plot reveal from gavilar's prologue. I mean it has to right? We have been building towards this for 4 books, slowly getting more and more info about this guy and we will finally know what he was thinking from his own point of view. But that would undermine the structure of a Brandon Sanderson book. His books almost always have big plot twists and mystery, even for how the magic system works. A wave of knowledge hits us at the end, appropriately called 'Sanderlanche'. Gavilar is too connected to crucial things. Even a small lore reveal might end up being a lot. For ex, he is connected to thaidakar and ghostblood, he knows about anti light, he probably knows ba ado mishram, he knew the heralds somehow, taravangian met him that day??, Whether or not he actually died, how to go to braize, axindweth and what her deal is. So many things that could be revealed in the prologue of the book. All those things are probably crucial to the ending. So I think Brandon will choose to be vague about most of this stuff. Also Brandon releases preview chapters before hand, so we really can't give too much away, as the fandom will have months to decode the chapters. So what will we see then? I think we will get very interesting revelations that might not effect the plot of the fifth book, instead it will recontextualize the major plot beats from the previous books. These reveals will serve to show more of Gavilar's character 1) Jasnah: We will see that Gavilar knew very well that Jasnah was trying to kill Aesudan that night. How does he know? Through Liss. We know that Liss has a agreement with Jasnah about if someone else tried to hire Liss against The kholin family. I think Gavilar already had the same agreement with liss and hence Liss tells him. Liss does this because 'a repeat customer' is more valuable to her.(a quote from the book). Gavilar is the type of guy who would be a repeat customer. How would he know Liss? Through Nale. We know Nale is abnormally interested in szeth. And szeth was Lisa's servant for some reason. Or it could be that nale found out about szeth through Liss, both ways work. We will also find out Gavilar was slowly grooming Jasnah to join Sons of Honor. This is why he suddenly he suddenly shows a scholarly side to him to Jasnah the months before his death. This works on Jasnah only because her childhood madness was a clear shame to Gavilar and she probably deep down wants his love more than anyone else. His respect for her mind, something she has built her identity around( being rational at all times) would only reinforce this. He may have also caused her mission to 'protect the family' discreetly. Maybe through the ghostbloods? We know Jasnah and ghostbloods are fighting for some unspecified reason 2) Amaram: He is trying to marry off Jasnah and Amaram to strengthen both of their connections to his organisation. But Amaram is a pawn. I am sure Gavilar knows who Nale is atleast( even if not Resteres/Kalak). Amaram doesn't. Because Gavilar isn't very religious, he doesn't care about the heralds coming back. He only cares about causing the desolation to make himself a god or a legend. So he lies to Amaram 3)Aesudan: She will be revealed to be a envisager( a splinter group of sons of honor) who defected to Gavilar because of ambition. She knew about his unmade.( I also won't be surprised if Gavilar told Liss to go ahead with the assassination anyway, as she was ambitious) I always found it wierd that Aesudan and Hesina were related (WoB). Aesudan is part darkeye, Hesina is part lighteye. They sing the same song once. Hesina doesn't seem to mind kal being a radiant even though she knows about spren a lot so u would think she is religious. She also suggests kal to become a stormwarden and even kal gets scared, because its very similar to telling the future. Envisage means 'to tell the future'. Teft even theorizes about envisagers in RoW, but it's left unanswered. Maybe these connections are important 4) Axindweth: In Row flashback, Axindweth writes in a letter that Gavilar's own feruchemist spotted her. I don't believe this at all because Axindweth was a part of Gavilar's party to parshendi expeditionto begin with. She is the only character to have explicit rings on her hand, it would be wierd to reveal another feruchemist in that party. Let's remember, Gavilar wants the desolation to happen. He has no real need to stop Axindweth from helping Ulim and Venli. Unless, she is working with Gavilar and stopped at his orders because of Nale. Nale did seem to somehow know that Ulim was in the palace that night. This is why Gav tells her to immediately stop bringing more voispren. He is secretly helping the fused come back. How does Gavilar know about Axindweth? Through Ghostbloods of course. He probably was a member himself, betrayed them and also stole Axindweth 5) Parshendi: He wants to fight with the Parshendi because of their unique dawnsinging magic that Venli saw. 6) Navani: They might confirm that he has Breaths( as he sensed her). He might also be shown to be intensely jealous of Dalinar for having Navani's affection, since navani does think that he still cares for her. 7) Taravangian: This prediction is interesting to me. Taravangian has found out about the coming desolation from dova in kharbhranth. This is pre-diagram 'the maybe dull' taravangian. He is understandably scared and decides to try to form a coalition with Alethkar, the warlord Gavilar. But something snaps inside Gavilar and he goes full megalomaniac. He laughs at taravangian's face, calling him stupid, and attacking his low self esteem. He dresses down taravangian and would insinuate that Tara's purpose is to be Gav's humble follower because of his lack of capacity. He will talk about the visions( huge news to people who dont read the wobs) and how he was chosen by the almighty. Tara would be humiliated to tears. Later, after Gav's death, Tara will set out for the nightwatcher for capacity and create the diagram. I won't be surprised if we find out that Tara sees gav in Dalinar and doesn't want to lose because of that. 8) A big hint that gav found a way to live These are the reveals that I actually expect for the prologue. Most of these are charcter moments that just change the view of the other characters. And also we will see the birth of the diagram maybe So it will be satisfying

I think that may be only a Dalinar thing, ashis second and third ideal don't really connect in any way. Bondsmiths are supposed to be pious, so maybe the real third ideal should have connected to that. But that was not what Dalinar needed. His ideal is more like an elsecaller in my opinion That might be because of Jezrien being the king before being an herald. But also, I think Windrunners are leaders because they inspire people. They are the most like the traditional hero archetype, protecting fighters who still have compassion. Kaladin is basically a poster boy for all radiants

Huh, interesting. Large as In how large? Does anyone know?

I just popped into the discussion because I did not think Brandon's fanbase was any more religious than others. Then I went on an Ill-considered tangent about how people can still be comfortable with the core motifs. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. Sorry if I was rude

Is Brandon's fanbase any more religious than other fanbases? Because that was not what I felt. Maybe a bit more but not a lot. Infact Brandon's works are a very comfortable reads for atheists because the the 'gods' turn out to be very human people. Even rayse is an ordinary psychopath

How do we know this?

I think that this is acceptable as a magical effect, especially post-RoW. Ishar drops the fact that people see clearer when a Radiant swears an Ideal: -RoW, chapter 111 This is said as being because the Radiant touches the Spiritual, and Taln's moment of lucidity was attached to an instance when at least two Ideals were sworn (Dalinar and Szeth), as well as Dalinar uniting the Realms. The Spiritual is almost the same as the Physical at this time. The sequence of events is this: -Oathbringer, chapter 119 Except for the short Kaladin pov, Taln's lucidity comes immediately after Dalinar unites the Realms. If someone just touching the Spiritual is enough to make people see more clearly, can't we expect someone grabbing it and overlapping it with the other Realms to do the same, but much more? We can even see that the Realms are still touching later: -Oathbringer, chapter 120 I think this implies a fairly major effect, so Taln snapping back to lucidity from being basically insensate isn't that strange. I actually think the millennia of torture may be what makes the difference here. Kalak is exhausted and talks about how he doesn't remember, Ash admits to losing long stretches of time. Part of the problem for the other Heralds is existing for so long, sensory imput, memories and all. Taln probably only has torture for the last four-and-a-half thousand years, not any varied imput or experience. The other nine are exhausted in a way Taln isn't, but Taln is far more worn down, as he just held out. It's in the Shadesmar sequence: -RoW, chapter 35 -RoW, chapter 90 And as the Heralds (and Cognitive Shadows in general) are compared to spren, it isn't out of the question that they would break in a similar way. Wow, I am really surprised by how many different opinions the thread has over this. So spren can become like deadeyes if you torture them enough but they can be healed through stormlight? What an obscure detail that I still didn't pick up on my reread. Grrr. So spren are very similar to humans! Because I didn't think that torture would effect spren much at all. They don't have real physical bodies, they are made out of investiture, they can heal quickly through stormlight. Clearly I was wrong about that. Do you think these deadeye-like spren can break their oaths? If yes, then then it explains a lot about the heralds as it explains how all the heralds could suffer centuries of torture. It gives a very simple explanation for their superhuman endurances. It doesn't explain why Taln is so much better at this than the others, so I feel like we are back at the same question. Also, the spren gets healed with enough stormlight, but Taln regresses back to his addled state. So I don't know if this works If no, then the two situations are not comparable because we know the 9 heralds broke their oaths. You just burst my brain with this piece of information. I can see this being very important. Idk about this, I just feel torture is worse than pretty much everything else, even if it will start to blend together. But I can see the point. What do you mean by worn into nothing? Is that connected to the quote below this? A psychology where a person 'couldnt' give in is a very weird type of psychology that I don't think exists really. And since Brandon writes deeply about people's psychology in stormlight, something unrealistic like this would not work I feel. But if he just brushes it off, I can see that happening. But then that would be convenient I guess, then it will be very interesting how the characters in the story interact with him. Do they emulate him, feel inferior to him, hurt themselves to be like him? I agree, but I don't see much room for change in his personality from what we have heard and seen. I see Taln's madness being as a simpleton and scared of fighting( both things used to describe Taln right now) Kalak definitely is more sane than some of the others, but he clearly had problems with making a decision. If a plan gives the entire humanity 4500 years to rest and recuperate and heal from a sudden stone age, the plan sounds good. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Which immediately gets fixed for a second. I don't believe this for a sec, because they clearly had precautions for when they break. Also, nobody is that stupid right? I strongly believe in Brandon because how real his characters feel. I know whatever reason he has for Taln's incredible feat would make sense and I don't think it will be revealed as just pure determination. If the answer is that he is a total spren, then I think Brandon can't afford to be vague about the distinction between spren and men for the sake of wonder because of all his fans who suffer from things like depression and can be easily confused with what Taln means in the story. I have three issues that I think need explaining 1) the idea that someone could handle 7000 years of torture and still not give up. 2) that after that much pain, he seems ok when he gains lucidity and seems normal 3)that he is mentally broken in any meaningful way if he can be fixed quickly

I would like to pop into this discussion because I think there is a good chance that lightning is a voidish form of division rather than illumination. Because perception is key. The surges are based on the perception of the people of Roshar. Infact, since we think of 4 fundamental forces, Brandon has said that we would have only 4 surges and electromagnetism would be one of them The only way I see it illumination creating lightning is if the lightweaver in question deeply understands the physics and can visualise lightning as the result of waveforms. But Roshar doesn't have that kind of knowledge yet. They are still in the Renaissance era. But lightning being an application of division is more plausible for people who live in the middle ages. There is a strong connection between flames and division (flamespren and ashspren). Lightning was mainly known for setting trees on fire. In many cultures, lightning is just an extension of fire. Even in ATLA. Another speculation in favor of this is the fact that they are called skybreakers. skybreakers have division and also fly in the air. Lightning usually symbolises god's judgement on the wicked( similar to the floods). Skybreakers are also interested in justice. It's not airtight, but i think it's more likely to be division than illumination

Oh I don't think they are going to be permanent at all. I think they are headed for a break up, but there will be the fallout for the back 5. But even then, I just don't think that Jasnah would consider any man other than Hoid her intellectual equal. I haven't read wok prime so I don't know what you mean by what it revealed, but Jasnah and Taln are mysterious characters we know very little about. Unless Jasnah and Taln's relationship is a major plot point in that book? I have not read it over fear of spoilers. Sure, but that will need to be hinted during said books But she is interogating the heralds for their knowledge of history and the oathpact. Taln would be knowledgeable about ashyn and first desolation, but that's not the mental stimulation that Jasnah wants. Knowledge isn't the same as smartness. In OB, as she meets Taln, she says that she could never forget Taln's 'hands'. I think there is a clear romantic indication with those lines. Also I think there is a WoB on it. Hoid has been so active on roshar and since the cosmere connections keep getting bigger and bigger, it would be wierd if he isn't interacting much in the back 5 The planned relationship quote was written in RoW annotations, when he clearly meant that Hoid and Jasnah were the only planned relationship Stupid question, how do I delete this extra quote below me on phone?

Hmmmm..... I am very skeptical about Jasnah and Taln ending up together. In the second WoB, he clearly means that the planned relationship was with hoid. This is after all the chapter 17 annotations of RoW. He also says he is uncomfortable with writing Jasnah is bi because Shallan is bi and is in a relationship with a man. And he only started intentionally writing shallan as bi recently. The first WoB is more nebulous, but I think it means that wok prime spoils Jasnah and Taln specific things rather than that it spoils Jasnah and Taln's relationship. Also it's just wierd to set up a relationship with hoid in one book, prolly break it up with another and then later find Jasnah and Taln falling in love in the back even tho we have no indication or foreshadowing for that yet. And Jasnah's main point of attraction to hoid is his mind and intellect. I don't think Taln is smart enough to attract her. He is very knowledgeable, but I still think it will be a step down from Hoid. Also Taln seems like he has a relationship with Ash already and he doesn't even hate her for leaving him. Unless you think there will be a love triangle(shivers) Also Brandon said he had only one planned relationship not two It might seem like I am ranting, i am not. I just wrote my objections one by one and it turned out huuge Totally agree. The only way she is probably gonna die is a sacrifice death near the end of stormlight. And definitely after her flashback is done

True but a lot of things are different from WoK prime and even there the main thing about his character was if he actually was Taln or not, a plotline that Brandon has dropped. Also he had a love story with Jasnah, but Hoid's taken that place. Also Taln is probably the stoneward character if Ash is going to be the dustbringer character. Ash has a very possible clear trajectory of swearing dustbringer ideals one by one. But, how much more of a stoneward could Taln be? It would be more interesting to have a new character who is beginning to swear the stoneward ideals one by one. If the the time skip takes a full 15 years, my dumb guess is on Gavinor( because almost all kholins are radiant and Brandon has clearly set up something for gav with szeth and Moash (Don't really believe in child champion theory)). If Taln is alive, I still see him as a mentor figure to the new stoneward radiant than actually having an arc himself. Also Brandon has guaranteed that a flashback character doesnt have to be alive. I don't think Renarin, lift, Ash are going to die anytime before their books. Jasnah is supposed to be book 10 so I can see her dying, but that would be a shame. So Taln is the best candidate for a dead flashback character. There is a good chance that Taln heroically sacrifices himself after suddenly gaining his lucidity in book 5. Which will shake Ash out of her apathy towards humanity and start her character arc. Is there a WoB that completely contradicts me?

Stormfather. He is definitely going to die. Killing Taln would be amazing. It has always been my secret prediction for book 5. Infact book 5 might actually kill all the remaining male heralds. Taln especially because I can't imagine Taln as a protagonist in the same way as Ash, I can't think of a character arc for him. Ash will be our dustbringer character, and we will see her grow I think.Also how would she react to Taln dying? That is exciting

You are thinking of The Black Fisher

This could also be related to the rhythms singers hear in Roshar, which is also from the spiritual realm

That's super interesting because my reading was totally different. To me the madnesses are very similar to The Thrill. The Thrill artificially increases his blood lust but it was still his choice to give into it. He still had the choice to stop every step of the way. Odium says that he made Dalinar do it, but Dalinar rejects that saying that no he burned those children, he killed his wife and 'you cannot have my pain'. Same thing with teft, saying the oaths did not make the urges go away but now he chooses not to relapse and decides to care about himself again. Actually, same thing with kal and many other radiants If the heralds were similar to how they used to be before the oathpact ( probably amazing people), then they would be able to resist the madnesses. That's my take anyway. That's why the other heralds don't bother me as much even if they are superhuman. Because they seem to have problems beyond the madnesses

That's not how I read those scenes, but I can see that. So do you think if we fixed their illnesses ( like there is a bondsmith swearing an ideal every second for the rest of eternity) do you think the heralds would be completely okay? Like small changes but mostly the same person? My headcannon was more like at first heralds were very honrable, the torture slowly reveals their insecurities one by one, after they abandon the oathpact they get magical madnesses which feed on said insecurities and magically magnify them. Shallan and lightweavers( elhokar seem like they generally struggle with self hatred and shalash's madness seems like a manifestation of her own self hatred( she destroys only her face right) Jezrien seems like teft and kal mixed with their flaws more magnified Point is, I feel like heralds are human and understandable even if they are superhuman and they have really wierd illnesses We are just having a friendly discussion, you don't need to apologise for anything. No one's trying to invalidate anyone. I think it gets harder to put reasonable limits on yourself when you have an example of someone seemingly limitless. But maybe that is a part of the story that Brandon wants to tell

To me the difference comes with the effort needed to 'fix' them. Each of our main characters has a loooong journey to deal with their issues and they are still not done. With Taln, someone swearing an ideal near him was enough to 'fix' him for a second. He gains lucidity in an instant and he can suddenly talk properly and have a conversation, he still cares about humanity. It's too fast for me to really think he is broken in any meaningful way. Each herald still feels broken in the real sense too ie that they clearly had a threshold of pain they could handle before giving up. To me, their problems are not just magical in nature. For example Shalash sneers at humanity at present trying to fight, something she would probably never have done at the beginning of the Desolation. This could be the effect of her (magical)madness, but I read it like she has lost compassion for humanity and can't bring herself to care as much as she did before. Which is understandable and very human. Nale, while talking to Szeth, tells him to not trust his judgement and advises szeth to choose on his own. This reads like a moment of self awareness from Nale to me. The old Nale would have actively fought against his madness prolly Kalak says to Adolin that he really can't blame the spren for not choosing to bond men because he knows very well that men can break oaths, talking about himself. Kalak is feeling the normal guilt and shame, not something induced by a madness Stormfather says Ishar curses him, humanity and then himself. God-King Tezim does not seem like a person who hates himself. But Ishar hates himself for what he did that day. Even Jezrien thinks that it's all their fault when he talks to Dalinar Tldr: The other nine heralds have changed a lot from what they were. Which is exactly what I wanted. They all reached the end of their determination and compassion, and that's natural in such circumstances. The main thing is that the other heralds did reach their limit, ended up betraying their friend (something they never would have have done in normal circumstances ( meaning they 'broke')) and now feel very guilty. They are broken in non magical ways too. True, I totally assumed. Oops. Ooh, Where did we learn that? I don't remember this. That logic is one of the arguments against Taln breaking to torture. My response is that time doesn't feel linear most of the time. If you are doing something boring for three hours, the second hour will feel longer than the first and the third hour will feel even longer. It doesn't really make sense then for anyone to break then. What's actually broken about Taln tho as he is right now? He is hallucinating stuff on fire, but he is mostly unchanged right? I really want more actual changes when he does become lucid. We seem to think that this is not normal and is very unhealthy, but this moment is happening right in the middle of the Oathbringer ending where everything is going great for the heroes. Dalinar has a big redemption arc, Kal can't say the fourth ideal but Dalinar saves him, Szeth has joined the good guys, OMG Taln is lucid now, OMG he does not hate Ash, OMG he is happy about the the betrayal, he still cares about humanity(what a champ), he feels like going towards Dalinar! Every main radiant is together in an Avengers style team up, venli is a willshaper, teft swears third ideal, kal vs amaram!! The text doesn't treat it like a bad or unsettling thing, whereas with the other heralds the text screams at you 'THEY ARE INSANE' during their scenes. True but Taln is the kind of hero People like Kal hurt themselves to be. Taln becomes a lot of people's way of proof of unrealistic expectations of themselves. If he can do t,hat why can't I do this smaller thing? Not talking about his choice. If humanity has a fighting chance because of Taln, the plan seems ok( cuz it actually worked) even though it's inhumane After 4500 years of torture, and that's the only outward change? Then I would say yes. Still, honor agreed. And anyway, no one should ask that much of themselves, at that point that's self harm. Maybe. Then BS has to explicitly show that he is a spren and clearly show the difference between what a spren is and what a human is. And also show explicitly if we should treat the other heralds as spren or humans and why they broke when he didn't. This opinion is why I thought that my opinion was unpopular. But the lenght of time and the fact that his characters are very good depictions of mental illness makes me think that very idealistic charcters don't fit and might be harmful. You guys all have very interesting viewpoints on this