RedBlue

While I agree that this isn’t impossible, I’m not sure why we would expect a Taln/Jasnah ship other than it happening in the unpublished first version of Way of Kings before Sanderson rewrote the whole thing. And I don’t find that to be a very compelling reason, personally.

I’ve heard this theory bouncing around (that the conditional legality of killing the Queen’s Wit will be important) but I’m not convinced. By the time Retribution vaporised Wit, Dalinar had already renounced his oaths, which releases Retribution from the contract. I don’t think there’s anything, at that point, which holds Retribution to the Alethi legal system. That leaves him free to attack Wit.

I disagree. Kaladin has not been in a place where he can have a successful romance before this point, but that doesn’t mean he’s not romantically inclined. His interactions with Laral, brief relationship with Tarah, and almost-flirtation with Shallan demonstrate that. His interest in Laral was definitely encouraged by his parents, so you could argue that it was social pressure rather than genuine, organic feelings. But nobody was pressuring him to pursue Tarah, and there was social pressure not to show interest in Shallan. That was all on Kaladin. And when Kaladin looks back on those relationships and what stopped them from working out, the problem is always specific to that relationship. It could never have worked with Laral because of the class difference between them. It could have maybe worked with Tarah, but Kaladin prioritised other things (protecting the boys in the army) and they drifted apart. It would have gone badly with Shallan, because their personal flaws would have played off each other in bad ways. The problem with these relationships was not that Kaladin doesn’t want romance. He does want romance. That’s why he tries and struggles with it. Also, Kaladin absolutely has romantic ‘vibes.’ To illustrate what I mean, here is how his POV describes Tarah in Oathbringer chapter 112: If that’s not romantic interest, then I don’t know what is.

It was implied that ‘kid Honor’ is in there with Taravangian, watching what he’s doing, learning and growing. Maybe, someday, judging his actions. I think we likely will get some kid Honor POVs as part of Retribution’s plotline, probably toward the end of the series.

I could see Kaladin gaining Bondsmithing abilities in the future, if Syl really has inherited the Stormfather’s position. Now that I think about it, this would be a pretty cool progression for Kaladin. He tends to acquire new abilities over the course of the story, but as of now he’s capped out on Radiant powers — so in the back half he could learn Herald-specific powers plus Bondsmithing.

I assume he means that main Era 1 characters will return as main characters. Kelsier, Marsh and TenSoon all appeared in Era 2, but they were very much relegated to the sidelines.

I’m withholding judgement on the Blackthorn spren until we see him in action, but I see him as a separate character from Dalinar and expect him to have a different arc. Repeating Dalinar’s arc, and recreating Dalinar in the process, would feel redundant. And Sanderson is not a writer who tends to recycle characters or their arcs in that way.

I think that, for many people (me included) on this thread, ‘icky’ is very different from ‘immoral.’ When something gives me the ‘ick,’ that’s me having a simple disgust reaction against the thing. Generally that can be chalked up to straightforward biological reasons. I don’t choose what gives me the ‘ick,’ and if others don’t feel the same way, it’s not my problem as long as I don’t have to deal with the icky thing. When I consider something to be immoral, that’s a more complicated emotional reaction that is often combined with a judgement call. These can usually be chalked up to social reasons (ie, society would not function if we allow the immoral thing, which is why we have an instinctive reaction against it). There is often a great deal of thinking involved in deciding whether a thing is immoral, how immoral it is, and whether or not it is my problem. For example: poop is icky, but poop is not immoral. Theft is (in most circumstances) immoral, but it is not icky. I have an ‘ick’ reaction to the idea of dating lots of characters who have romances in the books, including many human ones. Dalinar, for example. That doesn’t mean I think Navani is wrong or bad, and it doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy reading about their romance. I do enjoy their romance. It only means I wouldn’t date Dalinar myself. Because … y’know … ick.

I didn’t get the sense that Moash needed the suppression fabrial to give himself a chance. He used it because he’s not interested in giving either of them a fair fight. He came to kill people and damage morale, not to prove how good he is at fighting. As far as I can remember, Moash was always described as having the most raw fighting talent of Bridge Four (other than Kaladin).

From chapter 146 (Venli POV): Looks like the pool is filling with Retribution’s power, but in liquid form rather than light. It hasn’t moved, Venli and her group have access to it, and are aware that it is a big deal. I don’t think this is going to affect the Chasmfiends. At least, not directly. They only needed to consume the ambient Investiture in order to pupate. It shouldn’t matter if that Investiture was originally keyed to Odium or Retribution, as it gets ‘eaten’ either way.

I like Experience as the name for a thinking/feeling Dawnshard. Control sounds decent for a follow-the-rules type Dawnshard (to go with Honor, Dominion, Autonomy maybe), but I don’t know if I like it better than Bind. Care/Give/Share feel too specific for Dawnshards, especially as we already have Devotion and Endowment as Shards. I’m not sure the ‘flipping polarity’ idea hangs together. The Shards are supposed to be split up pieces of Adonalsium’s nature/personality, right? I don’t see how that works if there are inversions going on. If some Shards are ‘inverted,’ wouldn’t that mean they’re no longer decontextualised bits of divinity, but something fundamentally different?

IMO it’s heavily implied in the book that Odium’s special interest in the Shattered Plains was because he knew his Perpendicularity was there and he wanted full control of it. I don’t think this was for the purposes of the contract, though. The loophole Taravangian exploited was based on Alethi legal codes, which would not recognise a Perpendicularity as a legal entity, let alone a capital. More likely Taravangian is concerned about the potential usefulness of the Perpendicularity for after the Contest, when he’s actually running his empire. It is not only a passageway in and out of Shadesmar, but it also appears to collect Investiture in liquid form, which might be powerful in the hands of someone who knows how to use it.

I don’t have much to add, but I like this theory. It answers the ‘why now?’ question which has always felt unexplained to me. The question of why Ishar chose to take up the power, and why he did it centuries rather than millennia ago, will presumably be explored in the back half. (Mistborn)

I agree that Roshar seems to be looking to expand its sphere of influence in the space age, and it’s willing to use aggression to do that. I don’t think this necessarily means that Retribution is still around. Retribution is not the only being in the cosmere willing and able to conduct space warfare. I’m not arguing that Retribution must be shattered at the end of Stormlight — there have to be other ways of dealing with Shards — I’m arguing that Taravangian must be defeated. I don’t know what that will look like, but it has to result in Retribution no longer existing in the same form. I could see either of these (or both, if Odium and Honor fall apart again) being the ending, as they both involve defeating Taravangian and they can both happen in such a way that the resulting Shard(s) no longer pose a threat to Roshar. This resolves the conflict. And it also means that Retribution doesn’t exist anymore, at least not in its current form. I can’t see any of these working as an ending, because they don’t resolve the main conflict. If the heroes move away, then Retribution is still a threat, and they have only succeeded in delaying the inevitable showdown. If they make an agreement with Retribution, they’re in the same spot they were at the beginning of the story — trapped with a hostile Shard bound by oaths that it will circumvent at the first opportunity. That’s not very satisfying as a conclusion. I expect the ending of Stormlight to come at a cost to the heroes. No victory is ever easy for them. But, to me at least, this is a story about hope and heroism. It’s about not giving up on yourself, about believing that you can overcome the odds and even your own failings, about figuring out what doing the right thing means and then making it happen. I will be baffled if the culmination of this story turns out to be ‘it doesn’t work, the best you can hope for is a compromise with a tyrannical conqueror.’

Retribution is shaping up to be the primary antagonist of Stormlight, and it would feel disappointing if the series ended without that main conflict being resolved. Given Taravangian’s personality, I can’t imagine how the conflict could be satisfactorily resolved without defeating him in a permanent manner. Unless the plan is for Stormlight to be a story where the heroes lose, which I doubt. It would be an incredibly jarring tone shift. I’m not sure how bribes/rewards are specifically Retribution themed? It seems like a normal strategy to me.

I don’t think Moash is fixated exclusively on Kaladin by the end of WaT. Based on his interlude, Moash sees himself as a bringer of justice, charged with violently casting down the highborn and punishing them for their perceived crimes against the common people. That’s the narrative he has latched onto to combat his feelings of guilt and worthlessness. This requires him to work within the framework of Taravangian’s plans, which is why we see him fighting on the Shattered Plains rather than go haring off after Kaladin. I’m sure he’ll still have hangups about Kaladin when the two end up in the same place again, but I highly doubt Moash is going to wander off-world just because Kaladin isn’t around.

I disagree that Moash and the situation surrounding him is static in this book. There’s a lot less Moash development compared to WoR through RoW, which I think might be adding to a sense that nothing happened. But it’s not the he has ground to a halt, it’s that he wasn’t a major character in this book. He has significantly less screen-time and takes a back seat to other villains in the plot. Even with the small amount of material he gets, there have been significant changes in Moash’s mindset, and other characters’ mindsets regarding Moash. I’ll do a quick rundown. From WaT chapter 12: That’s definitely a shift in Kaladin’s feelings compared to where he was in RoW. (Also worth noting that Teft’s death took place only ~2 days before this scene. Kaladin has not had a lot of time to process.) From chapter 31: Apparently Bridge Thirteen also have it out for Moash. Between them, Kaladin, the rest of Bridge Four, and Gavinor, people are going to have to form a queue. In Moash’s interlude, we get the shift from where he was at the end of RoW (apparently he’s been laying in bed feeling awful about having killed Teft for days) to his new status quo: Moash can’t offload his pain onto Odium anymore, so he drowns it out with bigger, louder emotions. In a way, it’s a return to an old coping mechanism — he dealt with the grief of losing his grandparents by burying himself in anger and hatred directed at the king, and when he felt horrible about what he did, he embraced emotional numbness and drove himself forward with trying to prove himself ‘right’ by dragging Kaladin down the same path. But this time, Moash can’t rely on numbness, so he’s using his emotional pain as fuel. He blames Kaladin, and the rest of Bridge Four, for the guilt and grief he doesn’t want to feel. So, instead of addressing or even examining those emotions, he feeds them to his anger, hatred, and self-righteousness. His violence, directed at his former friends, makes him hurt more, and that drives him to further violence against them. He’s set up a feedback loop for himself, at Taravangian’s suggestion. (Incidentally, I think this is what the ‘he who quiets’ title is about. Moash suppresses — quietens — the emotions that hurt too much for him to bear. But no matter how much he hates, rages and scrambles for justifications, those painful emotions are still there underneath. Not gone, not silent. Just quiet.) Moash was one of my favourite characters in WoR through RoW, so I was hoping to get more from him in this book. Having said that, one of the things I love about the series as a whole is the scale and scope of the world and conflict. I love that there is a huge, vibrant, diverse cast of characters. And an inherent part of having a large cast is that not every character can have a large role in every book. Sometimes, a favourite is going to get shuffled to the background so that other parts of the story can be told. And that’s okay, because those characters will come back to the spotlight later. I’m anticipating a lot more Moash in the back half. There’s a list of people who want revenge on him. He wants to bring retribution against what he sees as the wrongs of society. (And wouldn’t you know it, it looks like retribution is going to be a major theme going forward, placing Moash squarely in the middle of the thematic point.) There’s also El, who held and rejected the ‘Vyre’ title before it was passed to Moash, suggesting that El might have once been where Moash is now, and I’m sure they will both have thoughts about that. In short, there’s a lot going on with Moash, and lots of set-up for conflict with other characters. (Also, if there weren’t plans for Moash in the back half, he would have been killed off at the end of RoW.) I’m looking forward to seeing where it goes.

If I recall correctly, there are already regulations regarding emotional Allomancy. They aren’t allowed to Soothe or Riot covertly in order to attract business or manipulate people into buying things. By the same logic, there will probably be laws against dangerous or reckless use of powers. Maybe certain city zones where Steelpush flight is not allowed. Blanket laws against using Allomancy (or Feruchemy) seem unlikely, though. There are plenty of legitimate reasons a person might burn tin or pewter, for example — why would the state want to prevent ordinary citizens from seeing in dim light, or from keeping warm? And any misuse of tin or pewter could be prosecuted under non-Allomancy-specific laws against invasion of privacy or violence.

I agree — and also, all the Ghostbloods from off-world presumably came through there. It must be common knowledge in certain circles at this point.

IMO Harmony’s idea of creating a ‘sword’ was flawed to begin with. Trying to make a person into a tool for a Shard to use is never going to work out well, especially for the person. I think Harmony will end up changing his methods to focus more on empowering people to look after their own interests, either through tech or metallic arts (or a combination of both).

Sigzil and Aux join the Iriali caravan in Shadesmar at the end of the book. It’s in chapter 147.

IMO, if your friends insist on not jumping between series, the order should be: Mistborn Era 1 -> Secret History -> Stormlight 1 to 5 -> Mistborn Era 2 I think M:SH is a perfectly good version of the Kelsier reveal, and some basics about the wider cosmere (Shards, the subastral, etc). It does change the reading experience for Bands, but not in a way that ruins it. And Stormlight goes before Era 2 to preserve the Ghostbloods’ mysteriousness. Maybe throw Warbreaker in there between M:SH and Stormlight.

Again, I’m not arguing that the Listeners’ position is worse than it was before. I’m saying that it’s bad. Retribution is bad news, and living on his planet is a bad position to be in. Things looked bad, and things are still bad. A huge-scale conflict is coming and they don’t have a way to avoid it — and the fact that Retribution’s Perpendicularity is on their land will likely force their involvement. I’m not sure what your point is. The ‘Foreverstorm’ (or whatever you want to call it) is different than the old Highstorms in ways that will cause problems. It’s pretty clearly spelled out in the book. I think so. Taravangian is deliberately arranging things so that people are dependent on him and are constantly reminded of it. He knows the psychological effect it will have on the entire population when they have to pray to him every night. It’s a subtle threat. He is setting himself up to use Light as leverage. That’s different from what Honor was doing with Stormlight. Tanavast was not a manipulator. And I’m sorry if I missed something, but I’m not sure what your broader point is? Is it that WaT does not have a downer ending because the Listeners specifically are doing relatively okay? Or is this just about nitpicking minor details?

I mean, I could understand if Vessels can’t be more helpful for … y’know … good reasons. Like ‘my Shardic Intent says no’ or ‘I’m too busy putting out fires on my own planet’ or even ‘I think this problem will go away on its own.’ But ‘I’m giving my ex the cold shoulder’ is a really crumby reason to ignore a brewing crisis.

I had this exact same feeling from the back-and-forth, but I wasn’t sure if I was seeing things that weren’t there. It’s kind of hard to explain when you’re picking up something purely based off vibes. It made me think of WoBs about Hoid having dated someone who went on to become a Shard, and also that he dated a dragon at some point. Medelantorius is both a Vessel and a dragon, so she ticks both of those boxes. And if she’s not Hoid’s ex, that raises the question of who is, because I haven’t gotten these vibes about any of the other Vessels. And at this point, all of them (or the associated Shards) have been mentioned at least once. I have to say, if Valor and Endowment have been making major decisions on the basis of Valor’s past relationship drama, that lowers my opinion of both of them. Normal people can prioritise their own feelings and avoid their ex. People who choose to take up a Shard have a responsibility to prioritise larger conflicts in the cosmere over their personal issues.