BenduLuke

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I wouldn't say it like that, my skin is the border of me, but my heart isn't made out of it.

Era two takes place after SA 5 so Hoid has a spren by that time and

SotD 2

  Reveal hidden contents

A Radiant(likely corrupted Skybreaker, or at least one using Warlight) appears on first of the Sun

 

I haven't got my hands on First of the Sun yet. Hoid is an exception in all the books, he is practically a shard.

Skin doesn't seem like a good analogy in this case more like it is the connective portion of the body to the outside world and the body is the Identity, which the heart is part of.

SotD 2 ?

40 minutes ago, Frustration said:

@BenduLuke

We have no idea what tapping aluminum would do, so you can't say it will autoheal to what you were when you stored it.

And where in the article does it say that identity is always changing.

Not sure auto heal is necessarily the term I would use more like restore or reboot with Feruchemy and cleanse with Allomancy.

I picked up my understanding of Identity and Aluminum across several articles over the last several months since joining. Recently someone suggested that what I was envisioning would potentially work if I replaced Identity with Spiritweb, but when I looked up spiritweb right in the opening paragraph it refereed to the boundaries of a persons spiritweb are their Identity. That would mean that a persons physical, cognative, connections, and personality, experiences, skills, talents or in other words everything a person is are contained within their Identity. As such it is always changing with new experiences and such. No one and nothing remains stagnant so Identity changes over time. Connections are logically overlaps between 2 Identities and are also fluid changing over time.

I saw someone comment that Radiants would leave Roshar, and I have assumed that is the case, but with some of the restrictions placed on cognative travel from Roshar I realized I am not sure if that is actually the case. I know there are groups trying to enable it like the ghostbloods, but I am not sure where it might say or imply that it will be the case. With Scadrial Brandon has said they will get FTL travel and thus will be able to bridge to various worlds within the physical realm. Just because some people like Hoid can travel from place to place within the CR I don't think that nessisarily implies that is plausible for almost anyone else. One restriction I know of is that when people attempt to transport stormlight off system it increases in mass like someone is attempting FTL travel in our universe. I am not even sure the Ghostbloods on Roshar are actually from another planet just in contact with others from off System.

You seem knowledgeable. Where does it imply or suggest that Radiants might leave Roshar before Scadrial bridges the gap in the physical realm?

@therunner Brandon souned a bit iffy in that WOB, but 2x to 3x for strength and indefinite on other attributes that's fine the storage still starts higher but will be out matched by compounding over time. Not suer I was clear if a Steel compounder takes a minute to store some speed they can tap that same speed for the same time without loss. If they burn the metal mind they get back maybe 10x what was stored and so long as they don't reduce the tapping time to less than the storing time they can have virtually 100% return, and they can get the same result by giving themselves more time instead of more speed from their augmented storage. So compounding gives them about 10x speed for the same time or 1x speed for 10x time, or a combination of the 2 such as 2x speed for 5x time. Each compounding increases the storage about 10x in either time or speed or a combination of both until they reach a point where it becomes hazardous to go any faster.

19 hours ago, Frustration said:

Source?

Aluminum removes foriegn investiture it doesn't add, Hemalurgy removes that part of the spiritweb how does aluminum fix that?

Source https://coppermind.net/wiki/Spiritweb

Aluminum does 2 things that are relevant.

1. It neutralizes investiture effects used against the allomancer.

2. It has the potential to restore the pre-investiture attack state of the spiritweb in full so making it as if it never happened.

Since Identity is the defined boundary of a persons spiritweb every new connection adds to that boundary since connections could be defined as overlaps in identity that new portion to the Identity can be stored and perhaps some of the other persons Identity with which the Truesoul has a connection with could be mirrored in their identity to be stored as well (the last part is mostly speculation beyond the connection overlap).

Take this for what it is worth to you but it seems to me that storing Identity is the ultimate storage in the Cosmere because it has the potential to store so many different things. In the case of metal arts tapping it would appear to be permanent unlike other things one could tap. A Trueself who was forged could potentially retain the forgery indefinitely or store that Identity to be used later for as long as needed beyond that they could potentially tap parts of multiple Identities for indefinite periods then store all or part of that Identity for use later. I really don't care if you think that is how it works, but give me a good reason why it can't work that way and I will consider it. Just because you don't think so wont persuade me so don't waste your time with that type of argument with me beyond saying you don't think so and that is OK with me just not persuasive.

12 hours ago, therunner said:

I think you misunderstood me on the storage point: I meant that storing the attribute is problematic, not that the metalminds are not large enough. Weight is probably the easiest attribute to store (Wax does it at all times because he has weight all the time, and it has no negative repercussions) but Speed requires you to

1. Move to store (and probably the more you move the more you can store)
2. To be slowed down while you are trying to move when storing.

Per the numbers in the post you have quoted, non-compounder simply cannot store enough speed to move at sonic speeds for more then milliseconds, even in extreme cases of storing effectively for half their waking hours for a year.

I have analyzed pewter storing as well, burn gives you 2x the speed and flare 3x the speed, so I have no idea where the 10x speed you are writing came from. This is what I wrote on pewter (100% speed is 9 m/s, as feruchemy starts to give diminishing returns after a certain point which seems to be capped at 100% of the natural attribute or less)

I have taken into accountant 1) Flaring 2) Sprinting 8 hours every day 3) Flaring pewter and then tapping steel, and it still does not provide sufficient benefit. Even if the Thug/runner sprinted 16 hours every day, stored that and did it for 50 years, they would not be able to move at Mach 1 for more than 1 second, the exponential diminishing returns are simply too strong.

There is that issue with people tapping steel burning metals faster, but I do not think it makes them any stronger, it just wastes their reserves faster (Brandon in the source WoB likens it to bendalloy bubble, and those do not make you any stronger due to faster burn), so I do not think it is relevant for this analyses as I have said in the original post

 

Your analyses of the loses ignores the WoB I shared in my post, which says that you get loses you get when tapping faster are much greater than 9/10, and are progressively greater. There is also this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153-hal-con-2012/#e2803) saying that loss of withdrawal of large amount of attribute does not depend on the rate of storage, so compounder could not get around it, they would need to make large enough stores to effectively neutralize faster tapping loses if they wanted to tap fast.

I agree that compounder could break sound barrier, we do see Marasi (who used BoM) do it after all. I avoided talking about them in the analyses because we have very few hard numbers on compounding, all we know is

1. It multiplies the investiture/stores by ~10.
2. You need to burn the metalmind with the storage. Now, since burning a few small vials of metal can take tens of minutes, to burn entire metalmind will probably take hours, but it depends on the size of the metalmind.
3. We do not know if the metalmind being invested makes it burn slower (there being 'more' to burn).

Now, to break the sound barrier for 100 second per my more optimistic analyses, you would need to compound about 6-7 times (assuming you start with those 1500 hours of 100% speed stores), which would probably take at least a week? But as we have no hard numbers it is hard to say, but it is realistic for compounder to achieve.

Now we have seen Marasi move at conservatively Mach ~7 for 0.5 second at most and she was already worried about depleting the stores too fast. Since BoM were most likely built by Fullborn/semi-Fullborn their stores were compounded, but by how much we again have no clue. To get Mach 8 would require to tap at ~250x speed of normal 100% tapping, per the Scenario 1 (T, time of storage when tapping n-fold is T = T_0/n *5/6 * (3/5)^(n-1) , with T_0 being the starting store) so if you started with 10^50 hours of stored speed (i.e. you compounded the same store about 50 times, taking a lot longer than a week) even then you would be left with 10^(-6) hours of tapped Mach 7 speed, i.e. ~4 miliseconds.

So Mach 1 definitely doable for compounder, Mach 7 also doable but it would require some ridiculous stores going by information we have available.

While I think aluminum might heal the spike wound (but it would require a lot of compounding first, as the damage is even greater that the one caused by shardblades) this might not make it economical as aluminum is not that common on Scadrial yet. They would be able to create unkeyed metalminds, but not medallions as those require Excisors to create and we have no clue what those are (and some speculate they have to do with Hemalurgy). So they could not make even simple medallions, much less BoM.

Yeah, I think it would be one of these two cases, leaning probably closer to the second one, i.e. non-Rosharans would lash harder, but it would take comparatively morel light.

Yes I think we have misunderstood each other.

First I got the Idea of how fast pewter burning might be from Vin being able to outrun a horse (40-45 mph) for a long period of time roughly 3x burning and guessing on what is possible with flare just more than 3x. Still if they sprinted everywhere for an hour while burning pewter they might be able to store 30mph for an hour of burning which is initially more than compounding can create. Estimating loss by tapping faster I don't have hard numbers on and can only speculate, but there is loss, but until tapped there is no loss. 

Compounding on the other hand works differently. If you store 10% for 1 minute you might store about 1.5 mph for a sprint. Then you Burn that for a 10x return so now you have 15 mph for 1 minute no time change which you store. Next you have 150 mph for 1 minute again no loss due to change in time and if you extend that time to 10 minutes again no loss due to compression but you are only running 15 mph for that period. Next 1,500 mph then 15,000 mph = mach 19 for 1 minute or Mach 1.9 for 10 minutes or 150 mph for almost 2 hours again no time compression so no loss. From there you have 16 hours of 150 mph worth of speed stored and at the next compound you have almost a weeks worth of 150 mph. 150 mph should be enough to run circles around almost anybody in the cosmere, but if not you can tap it all the way back to your ultimate lossless 1 minute velocity which would be Mach 278 and would flay you in atmosphere without some kind of major protection. The compounder only needs to store the initial speed seed to get this result in just a few periods of compounding that is why Miles was almost impossible to kill while he had all his metal minds. How often will the steelrunner need to tap anywhere near that potential. How much of that potential will they tap to enhance their pushes if they can find an appropriate anchor to take advantage of it. How fast would a coin or bullet be moving if pushed by that kind of force and for how far. How much steel do you need to store that much speed?

So Pewter starts faster and increases linearly while compounding starts potentially much slower but increases exponentially because it has input from the shard.

I have been catching up on the surge discussion and it occurred to me that by definition metal arts are surges without oaths and thus without oath restrictions. Just food for thought when comparing Roshar with Scadrial.

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

We do not know that they heal their spiritweb. We have been told it works by "negating and sucking out", specifically contrasted with healing.

Aluminum both removes investiture injuries using allomancy and restores the spiritweb using feruchemy both of which allow for a form of healing. The restoration aspect might even heal physical injuries back to the last Identity store, or allows for progression healing by potentially removing the part of the identity that has accepted the injury as permanent depending on when the Identity was stored last.

From my perspective the potential of Aluminum metal art is beyond that of any other form of surge binding in the Cosmere see some of my other comments above for an idea why. I don't expect anyone else to agree with me.

On 4/3/2021 at 4:39 PM, The Technovore said:

 Reading comprehension moment. "The spiritweb is the network of Connections and Investiture." That's the spiritweb.
"Their borders defined by their Identity." If the Spiritweb was the city of Luthadel, Identity would be the city walls, Connections being the roads and buildings, and the people being the Investiture. It's not a perfect metaphor, but there you go. Are the wall sof Luthadel the entirety of Luthadel? No. But it is an important piece that defines "what is Luthadel" from "what is [Insert City Here]." 
What you're theorizing is that by compounding Aluminum you can essentially remove the city walls, and then rebuild them to also include an entirely different city and that's going to be just fine and only do good things for you. Speculation that unfounded is outside of the realms of intellectual honesty in this discussion.

 

Did you read what I said? The Coppermind is consistently wrong, it's being changed and updated constantly. It's not written by Brandon like Frustration said. NO. The Coppermind is not as valid as any of the WoBs. It's an effective refresher on names and places and trivia facts, but you CANNOT form an accurate basis on magic mechanics by just reading and quoting the Coppermind. 

With Identity as a person or things map on the spiritweb connection would be where Identities overlap. Identity is also not static. Every experience, new connection, loss of connection, new thing you learn, personality, talent, injury (especially spirit), environment, and so on changes the Identity, maybe not allot but some. The identity locks on things seem to be somewhat flexible not strict in requiring exactly the identity creating them, or perhaps evolve with the person or thing.

On 4/4/2021 at 2:34 AM, therunner said:

No, abilities are distinct from Identity (per pretty much everything and how feruchemy works).

Steelrunning is affected by inertia, they suffer g-forces when accelerating or turning but the magic compensates for that (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/93/#e2695). And the very same WoB also states that they cannot ignore friction and wind resistance. So wind resistance would be slowing down any steelrunner, and they would need to tap more to compensate for that.

Thing is, the four shot things is something that Wax assumes happened (AoL, chapter 5), he has not actually seen it, for all we know it could have sounded like four quick shots merging together, or four separate shots but so close people did not have time to react. Bleeder is not shown doing anything close to this on screen. The compression factor of bendalloy is roughly 11x fold per AoL (coppermind), so if Bleeder looks as if moving normally from inside the speedbubble, than she is moving 11x as fast in reality, i.e. she would be moving at 99 m/s at best quite far from sonic speeds.

Now, what are the limits of f-steel? Per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126) the feruchemy is increasingly inefficient the harder you tap. In the WoB proper he seems to imply that the increase in tapping speed is relative to storing speed, but in other he says that otherwise, so I will assume that you can always tap without any penalty 100% of attribute, i.e. if you have stored what is effectively 100% speed increase for 1 hours, you can tap it, move at 2x the usual speed and do it for one hour. Now we can analyze the WoB and try to figure out what penalties would be for n-fold tapping speed. I also assume that 100% speed for movement (running, walking etc.) is 9m/s, as that is roughly what above average person can sustain for a 100 meter dash.

The above also completely neglects that air resistance is a thing and steelrunners do experience it(https://wob.coppermind.net/events/93/#e2695), that speed is among the most difficult attributes to store as you yourself need to be moving (per Sazed...and I think this means really moving, not tapping your leg or waving arms and storing that). Someone running 8 hours a day would be running at ~5m/s if we are being very generous, that nets them ~1500 hours of 100% speed (9m/s) after a year, and using all of these stores would net them only 1.5 ms of slightly supersonic speed. However it would give them around 45 minutes of 100m/s speed (if we are assuming the most favourable scenario), or 7.5 seconds at ~190 m/s.

Now of course someone with A-pewter could get around some of this, burning pewter roughly doubles the physical attributes and flared triples, this results in

1. For storing this is effectively just a multiplier, thug/runner combo could have 3x the size of his stores, so after a year he could have 4500 hours of 100% speed stored, and since he could maintain sprint for the entire time his store would roughly roughly double again for 9000 hours of 100% speed after a very intense year of 8 hours sprints every day. Now this assumes that pewter speed is storable (when moving!) as I see no reason why it should not be, the Thug is physically moving at those speeds.When just tapping the steelminds could get 4hours 30 minutes of 100m/s or 46 seconds at 190 m/s, or 0.1 second at ~280m/s, so still not enough to reach sonic speeds for any useful amount of time.
2. Now they can also burn/flare when steeltapping but that will effectively just give them a discount as I would assume a-speed and f-speed would be additive, i.e. when flared thug/runner is moving at 27m/s max so to get to 99m/s he needs to tap only at 8x the speed, as feruchemy seems to be relative the base state of Feruchemist. This effectively makes it cheaper for them to run at such speeds, but it is not enough to let them move at/near sonic speeds, they would still get not even 0.02 second at Mach 1 speeds.

There is also this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402/#e13501), saying that burning metals while tapping speed increases the speed of burn, likening to what would happen inside bendalloy bubble. However I do not think this means that the metal gives greater benefit, consider this:

You could in principle try to get around the storage limitations by using unkeyed metalminds, but even if you have hundreds of thousands of people equipped with f-steel and f-aluminum, steelrunner would still not get more than 10 seconds at sonic speeds. Thug/runner with such support team (hundreds of thousands of people) could get maybe 5 minutes of 1 mach speed, and again this assumes the ideal scenario were each increment in tapping speed is not harder than the one before. Ultimately no one outside of compounders or supported by compounders can move at sonic speeds for any useful amount of time.

TL;DR: Solo steelrunner, or even thug/runner combo has nowhere near enough store to sustain even just 1 Mach speeds for more than 0.1 second at a time under the most favourable theory, and it would deplete their entire reserves. They most likely can sustain ~100m/s speeds for 10-15 minutes, but it would nearly deplete their entire stores, and those stores would have to be quite extreme to begin with. Effectively sonic speed attacks for non-compounder are impossible, and even 200 m/s attacks would deplete nearly their entire reserves for just one strike.
 

I love how you support your idea with potential statistics. I just don't think those statistics match the situation this time.

For a Steel compounder storage could become an issue but remember Wax was able to store a buildings worth of weight within his bracers so metal minds may have huge storage capacity and more metal means more capacity.

Second compounding appears to be described as exponential. You store 1 and burn it for aprox. 10 provided by preservation/hamony. Then burn 10 and get 100 to 1,000 to 10,000 and so forth until the metalmind is full. Larger or more metal minds more storage. the initial storage might be 10% speed storage for 1 minute to 100% for 1 minute and so on. This increased balanced between greater time and greater speed. Wax had thousands of times more than his own mass in just his bracers so storage might not be a problem until well into the compounding. That means that this person is storing first 2 mph for 1 minute to 20 mph to 200 mph for 1 minute or 20 mph for 10 minutes and so on. The faster you tap the speed you lose some of the time so maybe 200 mph for 0.9 minutes instead of 1 or something like that. Though 20 mph for 10 minutes would go to 200 mph for 10 minutes.

Storing Pewter speed starts out faster 3x sprint speed for entire burn of Pewter or perhaps as much as 10x speed for entire flare length of pewter flared. The more pewter you burn or flare the more time or speed you have but it is multiplicative and will eventually be surpassed by compounding. That means this person is probably storing around 45 mph for the length of burn.

Long before air resistance became an acceleration problem escape velocity would be, but the friction from air resistance could become an issue before it causing acceleration problems as well. A steel compounders pushes could also be potentially more powerful than Duralumin steel for longer though probably not much longer because the steel would burn faster so you would need more steel to burn.

On 4/4/2021 at 11:53 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

If abilities are part of Identity, why does spiking the ability out not change his Identity?

It does change Identity but Identity is constantly evolving anyway.

On 4/4/2021 at 7:50 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

@Publius

I can see your argument and it seems plausible but not exactly practical.  It seems to me you could achieve these goals much simpler with medallion tech. You'd probably prefer Hemalurgy because nobody except the spiked person can use the powers granted but the logistics of using that much hemalurgy is rather daunting and messy.

  You have outlined the steps already. Getting  the human material is going to be a huge challenge in the first place. But say you do so. There's going to be some diminishing returns involved, probably after the first half dozen times you do it. There will also be losses, lots of them. You gonna have the people you most want to utilize be some of the most violent protesters.  You need a way to guard your operation or get a bunch of metalborn to buy into the scheme. But even waving away that obstacle you're losing 3 of 4 people to make one super soldier with compound healing and one extra power.  No mistborn,  they don't exist in nature anymore.  You could of course make one but then you get an Inquisitor and that's going to be extremely difficult to control, or you get a completely new Hemalurgic construct with unknown strengths and more importantly,  weaknesses. 

Or maybe you can make new Bands, but that's something only Kelsier knows how to do and I'm just not seeing him share the secret.  And as far as using him to go attack Roshar, that's even more unlikely unless it's his program. I can't see Marsh,  the only guy with any Atium left, even doing that. 

Actually with an Aluminum compounder I think you could create your spike factory easier since they can also heal their spiritweb and you need only have spikes granting allamantic and or feruchemical powers for them to use to create open metal minds. by switching spikes they could potentially create something like the bands of mourning.

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

He most certainly would have, at 200 m/s speeds the air drag (aka wind resistance) would be ~30 kN, so the wind would impart on 80 kg person ~370 m/s² acceleration, enough to very quickly slow the steelrunner down, unless they kept exerting themselves. How exactly does steelrunning work is a good question, but since apparently they do not ignore environmental effects like air drag, they would probably need to tap extraordinary amounts just to stay at this speed, to accelerate they would pull even more.

And nearly infinite supply =/= nearly infinite speed, rocket could have nearly infinite supply of fuel but that does not mean it can move infinitely fast, as the environmental factors kick in.

Seemingly steelrunning is not affected by inertia. it is the wind resistance causing friction that is the problem or moving so fast that there is not enough available air due to wind resistance or perhaps the wind making it hard to see. In SoS steelrunning was shown to have the person moving so fast they were little more than a blur unless you are in a Bendalloy bubble and then they look like they are moving regularly, and that is with the restriction of storing speed regularly not compounding or filling with pewter. The first thing you would want at high speed are some goggles long before you were moving fast enough to be in danger of friction damage. 100's of mph is certainly within possibility before friction and wind become a health issue. At mach speed you would want a helmet if for nothing else than bug splatter. Maybe light armor in case of air detritus. The only stated speed limit is the speed of light.

Just now, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Ah, okay. I must just have missed the Ideals being sworn, my bad.

I see, interesting.

Hm, I've often seen those as some of the most compatible orders, honestly. An activist seeking justice for the oppressed feels like something both would like, for example. I'm curious to see what path Quicksilver takes with them!

 

Him getting into the philosophies of the metals in the newest post was interesting. 

Justice and mercy cannot both be fulfilled at the same time without some kind of intermediary. Justice is the eye for an eye ideal. Without some intervening factor Justice is ultimately undeniable by mercy. In the eye of Justice everything good must be rewarded fully, and every thing bad must be punished fully but in no case more or less than what is warranted. Justice is part of what ties Harmony's hands. that being said edgedancers actual ideal isn't stated as mercy, but as being loving and healing so there is room for actual Justice there especially when balancing being loving and Just toward the victims in including the victim in the situation resolution.

I view character building to be harder than just learning physical abilities, information, or acquiring powers, and ultimately has the potential to provide limits.The more complete a persons character the more restrictions they have.

46 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Did you check your source? Because if you would look at the WoB that that 16 links to it says nothing about breaking the sound barrier.

Identity isn't mentioned there at all.

No it isn't, the coppermind is only as good as it's sources, and as stated above it's not the best at keeping true to the sources. The coppermind is written by fans, WoB's are written by Brandon, tell me, which is more accurate?

"For all we know" is not a great place to argue from.

Brandon does not always refrence them together, and it would be weird to have two names for the same thing.

and as an extra note

  Hide contents

Questioner

So, Miles Hundredlives. If you were to spike his Allomantic gold out of him, would that change his Identity such that he could no longer access his metalminds?

Brandon Sanderson

That would not necessarily change his Identity, but it would change his Investiture. So if you took off the piece of his soul that could do Allomancy, and then gave him his metalminds. Well, no... No, this is more complicated than I was assuming. So you're saying if someone took away his ability to do Allomancy, could he still access his Feruchemy metalminds. Yes he could. He could still do that. That should work just fine. 

Questioner

Do the metalminds kind of have a pointer to his Identity, they don't have a copy of his Identity that they're keyed to? 

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah... he is still him unless you spike him and do something with the Identity specifically. 

Questioner

So you could potentially steal his Identity.

Brandon Sanderson

That strays into RAFO territory, so we'll go ahead and give you a RAFO card. But simply taking it away would not change his Identity to the point that it would prevent-- Good question. Very detailed.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

Notice how abilities and Identity are not the same.

1. Hemalurgy is healable
2. You would have to hit a very specific region of the heart for that to work

Harmony is all but incapable of action by his own admission.

All magics can be worked together, and Awakening is far more useable anywere, do you want me to add Nightblood to the list of Rosharan weapons?

They are born with a specific powerset, not just untapped potential that can go any direction

Radiants are immune to savantism, or at least heavily resistant, and why would they need to change the shape? Far easier to carve wood or mold stone or crem and then soulcast it.

That was specifically 2-3 bullets for Wax with Vindication.

He wouldn't have any problem with friction and windresistance unless he was moving supersonic so whats to check.

Take it as my interpretation of his complete collaps after feeling like a big part of his soul was ripped out violently.

Oh just to be clear "The Spiritweb is the network of Connections and Investiture which make up the soul of a creature, place, or object. Residing in the Spiritual Realm, Spiritwebs lack any tangible shape or size, with their borders defined by their Identity."

Oh and Miles identity would change just not enough to debilitate him. When I said you forgot healing I was refering to physical healing. Until removed aluminum interferes with all forms of healing from investiture. So hit a Radiant in the heart, head, neck, vein, artery, or any other potentially lethal place with aluminum and it is game over no matter how much stormlight or gold they have and it has the potential of neutralizing all their stormlight to boot..

You are right that abilities and Identity are not the same. Abilities are contained within Identity which is much more all encompassing.

Harmony is restricted buy not incapable. To get around his restrictions he uses tools like Wax and the Kondra.

Tell that to Spook Harmony flat out made him a mistborn. So the potential is there even if not awakened.

Radiants are more resistant to the downside of savantism that a person who uses a soulcaster, but are still vulnerable to it.

Brandon actually said it depended on the bullet used in vindication among other factors.

"Depends on the gun... Okay, so Vindication. He could probably... depends on the bullet, cause he's got several styles. But let's just say two or three. There's an argument he could do it with one, with the right shot, the right bullet, in the right moment."

Oh did you notice the spiritweb is within the Identity? Oh and the WoB is within the coppermind.

As I laid down for sleep Lumina asked me, "with your power how did you get captured?"

"Are you asking what they did to capture me, or how were they strong enough to capture me?" I responded.

She continued, "Yes, how did they have power to capture you?, More than that since they seemed to have that power how could you escape."

I said "I got captured because there is a law to power, and that same law helped to free me. With all power comes restriction, the greater the power the greater the restriction."

She looked puzzled so I continued.

I remember when I first learned this lesson.

I had just learned how to shadow Bronze and so finally understood how to integrate being both a seeker and a sentry. I noticed that there are qualities which each metal born shares with those who use the same metal.

In the case of Bronze it was that they can become obsessively observant of and preoccupied with people who are a potential invested threat of any kind. What I realized that day was that to be effective with Bronze I needed to be alert and present, but if tipped into be obsessive it would narrow my awareness.

Mastering physical skills is easier than incorporating a new quality or value. It takes constant attention to remain alert and present without becoming paranoid which would lead to a form of potential insanity.

With that realization I started to look for qualities shared in other metals. Most obvious was pewter. They have a near obsessive focus on strength, but mostly on the physical aspect of strength. With some this can be diluted by some types of feruchemy. One quality that pewter could provide strength in is balance, but there is no feruchemical compliment that can store it except nicrosil and it normally only stores physical balance.

That in fact was the other piece of the power puzzle that I first realized with Bronze. Pewter focuses on strength and some of the people with the strongest character were thugs and brutes who went beyond just the physical in their values. They maintained a balance and dexterity in the things they did.

Iron focuses inward, steel takes action, tin observes, zinc expands, and so on to integrate each metal I had to incorporate a new quality into my character and balance it with all the others. With Nicrosil I had to adopt the qualities of sacrifice and support.

So when the ghostbloods captured me they inadvertently place me in a situation contrary to my character to use my full ability to escape, but in not understanding what hobbled me and thus underestimating my actual potential as a result they later left an opening for me to exploit to escape.

To be honest I told Lumina, for me mirroring metal arts is not much different than swearing oaths and may have actually prepared me to be here. For me balance is key to my abilities.

18 hours ago, Frustration said:

Breaking the sound barrier would be beyond most steelrunners, even compounders won't be doing that regularly

Where did you get the ripping part of their Identities?

That would require Sel.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Did Hoid use the bead of lerasium to rewrite his spiritual DNA or Web in a way other than just giving himself Allomantic powers?

Brandon Sanderson

His goal was to become an Allomancer.

Questioner

And did he use it to create other powers than Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

It could not give powers other than Allomancy.

Questioner

Because it’s lerasium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Oversleep

So he did burn it and become a Mistborn, right?

Brandon Sanderson

You have seen him use Allomancy…

Oversleep

Yes, because it’s creating a lot of <misunderstandings>.

Brandon Sanderson

You have actually seen him use Allomancy.

Footnote: Brandon has since confirmed that the lerasium was burned
Kraków signing (March 21, 2017)

 

It is not Anti-investiture, it's inert, the Coppermind is the Wikipedia of Brandon, it's useful, but only as good as it's sources, never has aluminum been destroyed when in contact with Investiture, as we know Anti-investiture is.

I'm not entirly understanding what you mean.

Breaking the sound barrier is not a problem. 

Compounding[edit]

A steel Compounder would be able to use steel to have a nearly infinite supply of physical speed.^[16] They would not be able to run faster-than-light. If not careful, the Steelrunner could kill themselves from running too quickly by factors like air resistance. (Steel armor could help with this)

I got it mostly from Tefts death after his spren was killed.

Alright you took me to literally. Counter investiture.  Brandon chose aluminum for the role it serves because it is rare pre-industrial age, then becomes incredibly common, providing a way for technology to counter Allomancy. It has been shown to counter other forms of investiture and its metalic properties also enable this.

14 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Okay, so you know how Wikipedia isn't a valid citation in any academic or school paper? That's because it's edited by the (somewhat knowledgable) public and therefore is prone to error and corruption. Same deal applies here. I see conversations at least twice a week about how a detail or sentence in the Coppermind is wrong, and needs changing or fixing. 

Point is, the Coppermind does NOT provide a fully accurate or valid basis of knowledge for any topic. Any citations to the Coppermind will be questionable, and if all your knowledge is based on the Coppermind, you're in for a world of hurt when debating cosmere mechanics (much like what you've been getting in this thread, coincidentally). It's really best to be able to point at things in the books directly or at WoBs. WoBs are generally as canon until a book contradicts one or a later WoB contradicts an earlier one. Hope that's helpful.

 

Also, Bendu, I think the confusion is in the distinction between a Spiritweb, and Identity.

A Spiritweb is the entirety of someone's "code" in the Spiritual Realm. Investiture, Connection, Identity, (and Fortune?) are all pieces of that spiritweb. Identity is what tells apart Sazed from Kelsier. Connection and Fortune involve Kelsier's Connection to Ruin and Preservation, and his destiny as inciting the Skaa rebellion, and Sazed's Connection to Vin, Kelsier, and being the Hero of Ages (being Hero of Ages probably also involves a heavy dose of Fortune and Identity). Investiture is the innate power, it's what makes Kelsier a Mistborn and Sazed a Feruchemist. I think the basis of all these problems, Bendu, is that you've conflated Identity with Spiritweb. 

If you went back to all of your previous statements about Identity, and replaced the word with "Spiritweb", and suddenly your conjectures would be making a LOT more sense. You'd be right in that Connection and Identity are crucial pieces of a Spiritweb. But you'd be wrong that they are largely the same thing, as they describe two different aspects of the Spiritweb.

Even in your Quicksilver scenario--Quicksilver's antics would be making a lot more sense if you described it as him manipulating his entire Spiritweb (which is unlikely to be able to accomplish with just Aluminum compounding, you'd need to be a Full Feruchemist or Fullborn). 

Hope that helps as well.

 

Also aluminum is most definitely NOT Anti-Investiture, it doesn't interact with Investiture at all except to make it stop working, If it was Anti-Investiture it would immediately explode or combust whenever a Metalborn tried to use it.

Coppermind is as valid as any of the WoB's. Allot has not been done in the books yet our most reliable source. On metals qualities or other investiture quotes they are in the books as quoted in the books in the Coppermind so are reliable.

For all we know the spiritweb is incapsulated within the Identity, at the very least the Identity makes up a significant part of the Spiritweb and like connection is indivisible from it.

Brandon doesn't discuss spiritweb with anymore detail than he does Identity or Connection and he often when discussing them does so in reference to each other.

Aluminum counter investiture see response above.

9 hours ago, therunner said:

I am putting the same kinds of information together, so I can respond in one place.

Full suit of steel armor weight at 15-25 kg (33-55 lbs), so a lot more then `few extra pounds`. For a thug most likely not slowing them down that much, but it will slow them down some.

Neither hammer nor shot put throws are known for their accuracy, so I am not sure how accurate could such throws be. And yes I am aware that pewter also seems to improve dexterity and as a result maybe also accuracy somewhat, but that is at normal human speeds, not at 10-20x times the normal human speeds. I suspect here pewter dexterity would not help them that much.

To store speed they need to move, just burning pewter and storing will do nothing (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/352/#e10297). Second, Bands of Mourning, the most filled metalmind ever seen created definitely by compounder (most likely fullborn) were the size of oversized spearhead, and they were still not as invested as shardblades, so at best maybe comparable to shardplates. Your postulated non-compounder could not even scratch that, so their armour would be most likely barely invested when it comes for defensive purposes. Even full metalmind (which we have never seen as far as I know) would most likely only resist shardblade, and non-compounder does not have access to enough investiture to fill the entire plate, most likely even 50 of non-compounders could not store enough.

You also did not address the fact that the second armor leaves the thug/runner hand, it will get slowed down very fast, as it would experience Newton drag ~v^2. Hammer with head of area 0.02m^2 (so 20 by 10 centimeters) thrown at 200m/s would take 2 seconds to fly 200 meters, anything beyond 400 meters would have more than 10 seconds to react, and this neglects gravity, which would complicate aiming much more. However, anyone close than those 200 meters, especially if they were on a ground would have a bad day indeed.

I would not call it contradictory. Incomplete? Yes. For degree of durability we actually have some hard limits, 2-3 bullets to shatter section for example. Heat resistance was not yet shown in books, so there we do not have much to go on, outside of the weight of plate and the fact that Nightblood (heavily invested metal) would have rather high melting point. Not fully accurate information is not the same as contradictory information.

He occasionally talks to Wax/tries to get him to do stuff, far cry from making lerasium beads for him. Most of his actions are indirect, only telling his agents what to do, not enabling them (he did not even share how to make radios which would much smaller impact than making lerasium). And most of his active involvement was against incursion from seemingly another Shard, Trell.

The reason Scadrian have Harmonies investiture in them is because Ruin and Preservation created the entire planet and everything on it wholesale. It does not mean that your average Scadrian is more invested than average person from elsewhere in the Cosmere.

No, all Scadrians do not have unawakened potential to be Mistborn, some have potential to be Mistings and then Mists can snap them to make it so. What is plausible is not just dependant on Identity, but on spiritweb as whole i.e. also Connections and such. If your parents did not have correct spiritDNA to allow their offspring to be Mistborn (however heredity of spiritual aspects works) than it is outright impossible (unless random spiritDNA mutations are a thing) for child to be born Mistborn, i.e. it is incredibly unlikely outcome (if we allow for random spiritual mutation). As a result the stamp would quickly wear off even if you were stamped when storing the native Identity.

And again, we are supposed to compare Roshar vs Scadrial, not Scadrial and other planets vs Roshar.

No, what was shown is that aluminum repels captured spren in conjoined fabrials. Huio even speculates that it is because of aluminum interfering with connection of the two halves of singular spren in conjoiner. If Huio is correct than aluminum would have no effect on other fabrials and free spren.

Aluminum is sufficiently common that Fused are equipped with aluminum covered lances. And again, because it can be soulcast it is as common as surgebinders with Transformation want it to be.

On coppermind page of Aluminum, there is literally no mention of the words anti, anti-metal or anti-investiture. All the coppermind says is that it is

1. Investiture-inert, i.e. not pushable/pullable, unaffected by surges, unforgable, unawakanable, ignores invested cutting property.
2. Interferes with active uses of investiture, i.e. disrupts time bubbles, shields from rioting/soothing, blocks metallines, seems to interfere with some connections (conjoiner fabrial spren)...this is most likely extension of the investiture-inert property
3. It can be used in Metallic arts, for a) wiping interal investiture reserves (and metals as well) b ) storing Identity c) removes all powers (but this requires proper bind point, or heart)

 

I appreciate your math, but we are talking about a world with different degrees of physical force. Steelrunning comes with increased reaction which also helps with aim, but I think you missed the point of throwing the Hammer. It was meant as saying that even if a radiant is flying they are not entirely secure, and a hammer moving at mach speed (reference above as well) would be hard to dodge if on target. It would also travel far though the further the less likely it would be on target. Oh I noticed while re-reading Steelrunner qualities that it can increase burning speed more than Duralumin, which adds another aspect of this proposed twin. A pewter burner who has more than pewter/duralumin power. Yes he has to move but that is no obstacle to a person burning pewter since they simply store the potentially unnecessary speed while burning pewter and moving around. Rarely does a pewter burner need all the speed they have access to. To use your estimate a pewter burner has the potential to move 3 times faster than normal, but instead he moves normal speed and stores the extra 3 times speed from burning pewter when ever possible. Instead of wasting pewter by just burning it away before bed they flare it to store speed just before bed.

counter investiture in trivia. you took me to literally. It always interfers with investiture where ever it pierces, and with intent it is a hemalurgic spike which nullifies all investiture. You missed un-healable.

did you miss harmony trying to set up defense against odium in SA? He does more than talk to Wax he sends him actual help and arranges what he needs to potentially succeed. He can produce Lerasium if he chooses so long as he stays within balance. Never the less all Scadrians do have the potential to be Allomancers even mistborn, but that potential is rarely awakened regardless why that is. Any with Terris anscestry also have the potential for Feruchemy as well.

One of the advantages Scadrians have over Rosharans is that they can take advantage of other planets investiture to enhance their own. They are literally able to add almost any other form of investiture to their own innate investiture. Metal arts work everywhere without hacks no other investiture does.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Fabrial soulcasters are more limited then Radiants (and generally surge fabrials), so it stands to reason that Radiants can produce it. Aluminum resists investiture itself, but if that translates to greater cost of investiture when producing aluminum is not given. But this is moot point, as between Dalinar and Highstorms they have nearly unlimited amount of light available. We have seen no Radiant produce it, because until the now they had no reason to produce it in larger amounts.

I would personally assume that aluminum will probably be more costly on investiture front, but not enough that they cannot produce it in large quantities, as in history they clearly did produce it in large enough quantities to literately line entire base of Urithiru with it.

The issue with industrial production is that it is limited by 1) Mines 2) Transportation 3) Electricity output. All three of these are not easy to scale, so any increase in production capacity will take time, at least years. In contract, Roshar are limited by 1) Number of Radiants+Soulcasters 2) Stormlight, and the second of these is non-issue with Dalinar and regular Highstorms, so they can quickly scale if needed.

In principle, Roshar can scale faster and produce aluminum faster and easier per kilogram. However they are limited by their personal, so in enough time I would expect Scadrial to overtake them again, unless the growth in Radiants numbers outpaces industrial growth of Scadrial. For near future I would expect Roshar to outproduce Scadrial, but in ~20-40 years down the line I would expect Scadrians to take the lead again, if they focus on mining and smelting.

The problem with soulcasting aluminum is that it stays what it is without the industrial ability to change its form. Aluminum sheets stay aluminum sheets and wires stay wires. So yes Roshar could potentially produce the material but they lack the tech to work with it much beyond that. It has also been said to be difficult to soulcast what ever that means in terms of the Cosmere. Scaling soulcasting is a problem to since the soulcasters if they start doing to much will begin to turn to metal which is both lethal and irreversible since they will likely be an aluminum statue. Even before that the aluminum in their system may block their ability to soulcast altogether. Progression will be blocked as well so no healing for them even with a little move toward savantism. We don't know where they got the aluminum for Urithiru or the affects of assembling that quantity.

@ScadrianTank You really only need a steel compounder with alluminum weapons who hits the Fourth oath before they even realize they are being attacked or give them a big hammer to crack the plate over and over until they can stab an aluminum blade shoot an aluminum bullet into a lethal spot.

Oh 2 or 3 bullets may only be referring to regular bullets to shatter shardplate sections, it might be a different story for armor piercing rounds or even vindication hazekiller rounds.

18 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Ah, I see. Yeah, I think that will be interesting. Having to balance all the Ideals certainly sounds difficult, though not impossible, and I'm curious to see how he'll handle this!

I'm a bit curious, though: how strictly do the Ideals bind him? So far I had thought that he'd mostly kind of been skipping the requirements with the Identity from the old Radiant. Is this not the case? How does this work for spren like Cryptics or highspren, where the Ideals are extremely personalized and living up to a theme will not alone account for it, but rather a pretty specific Ideal is necessary?

What are the zinc and brass shadows being discussed here?

consider Lightweavers value creativity and honesty, Willshapers value resoluteness (I interpret as integrity) and building, Edgedancers value being loving and healing (mercy). So far those are the orders he is fully connected to and in order to continue that connection he must act in accordance to those values. Yes his oaths may be personalized to himself, but are equally binding as well. The only shortcut was in initiating the connections during the revival process, he still needed to complete those connections through sincere and binding oaths. Like Hoid his abilities enabled him to ease the transition of the Spren bond. I have an idea how I will integrate the Skybreaker ideals of Justice and confidence which have the potential to contradict Edgedancer ideals.

You may note that quicksilver stores the identity of metals in his aluminum minds which he can innately burn so the aluminum because of that acts as if it is that metal, but he is not actually burning Brass and Zinc but aluminum identified as those metals so shadow metals.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

SoTD 2

  Reveal hidden contents

We see one

A single bracer has plenty of storage, and any armor you add makes it harder to run.

Pewter only get's you at most 3 times the strength of an ordinary person, and that's only when flared. that's not going to let you throw a hammer 300 yards.

Connection is how things relate, Identity is what it is how is that inseperable.

"I think Identity and Connection are all but inseparable"

And when asked to back it you just say, "That's how I read it"

 

It is not just about the storage, but also about the protection. A few extra pounds for a thug is not incapacitating so long as it servers a purpose.

It is not just the Pewter strength but the Mach speed steelrunner spin that enables the throw. I though I was clear when I described it as a hammer or shot put throw?

People and things connect to Identity, and part of what makes up Identity are a person or things connections. Only aluminum (trueself), and its derivative duralumin (connector) can fully separate the two so far as I know. Even when Taldain tried to rip away the stormfather from Dalinar he seemed to be ripping part of their identities from them.

33 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Sixth of Dusk Sequel Spoilers

  Hide contents

We see a Radiant draw a Shardgun, so this is the closest thing to canon we have for that, however, in it we see the radinat have to insert seperate ammunition, so the spren cannot form the bullets for it. Spren cannot split themselves into two objects, it's painful for them.

A WoB confirms that you can't add powers to a person, so you cannot use forgery to cheat this system. You are going to have to accept that.

Believe it was a week

Eh, I get your point, but we have arguments for both sides, and at this point, we don't know enough about the mechanics of living plate, so maybe it's best we move on to other topics.

And this is also a good point, A lot of your speculations have some level of leaps of logic. While I will still hold to my previous point that we should move to other topics as even dead blades and plate work very differently to each other, we don't really know how living plate is going to work yet, and the fact only Jasnah, an elsecaller, dismisses it to shadesmar, we're not sure how much is unique to certain radiant orders.

However, try and list down the evidence to your points rather than simply saying these are connected. I know it can be annoying, but considering your position, it is best to put in that little extra effort, and you may end up changing your mind as new evidence is revealed and you alter your conclusions.

Sorry I wasn't clear the spren in the bullets were not the same spren, think more along the line of windspren for the bullets of a windrunner. Though in my scenerio it could also have potentially been one of the other spren he bonded. I know very far fetched.

The Coppermind also implies you may be able to Forge someone into an allomancer, which would be easier on a Scadrian since it has been said they all have investiture from Harmony but in almost all of them it is inactive.

I suspect that when Hoid burned Lerasium he got a different benefit than has been usual since he may have known how to burn it most effectively.

the information on whether living plate is dismiss-able is contradictory. Even the degree of durability of plate is contradictory.

I certainly expect to change my perspective as more examples are presented especially since I project at near the limits of what I think might be possible based on what has already been shown or written in my speculaton. Admittedly beyond what most people seem comfortable with. As such I try and be open minded when others push the envelope even when I don't think it likely.

@therunner Pewter agility will help with aim. Nealy strait up might require more like a spinning Thor throw. Burning enough pewter to fill the armor might make them a pewter savant, but if they were careful they might avoid pewter drag since the focus would be on storing unused speed when they burn pewter. Harmony seems to take a bit more of an active roll as shown with Wax. The 24 hours is because the underlying identity eventually erodes the stamp, but a Trueself fully stored wouldn't have that consideration so anything becomes plausible even mistborn since all Scadrians have that unawakened potential. Not just conjoiners it affects all Fabrials and Soulcasteres as well as external surges. Aluminum appears fairly common on Sel but not Roshar Lopin Said it was very rare and only thought it could be soulcast and then rarely. In the aluminum coppermind it says it is anti-metal arts and by extention anti investiture. 2 of its invested metal art abilities are to neutralize investiture. an aluminum bullet with intent is a hemalugic spike and will wipe all investiture from its target if it hits.

55 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

What I meant was more the part on storing his own emotions, like frustration or pain. I was intending it as an addendum to the previous suggestion. Like, if you do take the option of making him be affected by other people's emotions and such, it would probably be a good idea to change how storing his emotions away works, so that he can't just store away these emotions that are affecting him without other downsides (in the example I proposed, becoming overall less emotional would be the drawback, but there's probably other downsides you could come up with as well). Otherwise, it doesn't end up being as much of a weakness.

Yeah, that's why I suggested things like being affected by the emotional states of those around him, as it fits the more temporary mirroring aspect of the unconscious uses of the powers, I feel.

With his oaths and other integrated partial personalities over time he will become more like Hoid in that he will be less willing to take destructive action against beings. Over time he will only be able to integrate the most integrity supporting qualities. You think Kal has an issue with picking sides wait until he completes the Radiant circle. Harmony only knows what he will do then.

Take a look at the qualities inherent in Radiants and consider how you might integrate them. Who will he bond to for Bondsmith? Why? Does he already have that bond at least partially?

Lumina replied "what if we sneak out and discover the watchers ourselves. I think we might be able to slide through the stone and dirt below this cottage to leave without being seen".

Fractal added "Yezz and we could clooak ourrselvvs in illusion to remain hiddennn whyal we finnnd themm. That would beee a greaat lie. leeave themm wonnderinng wherrre you arre annd how youu got therre."

Harvest started to laugh and said "We can even be slippery so as not to make any noise to give us away. Imagine how they will look when you return but they never knew that you left."

Within just a few minutes we were swimming though the earth to a secluded place just outside of town. It was really strange building an illusion to cover me as I emerged. I took the precaution to tap shadow tin to sense anyone nearby. Not long after I was entering the pub to meet with some of the other merchants. Gathered around the table we discussed how Alder and his group had been extorting traders for awhile. How anyone who stood up to them until now seemed to vanish but nothing could actually be tied back to them. They told me how Flander and some others were new arrivals that had given Ander more muscle to work with. We talked as some length about how the extortion was accomplished and enforced which even included some leverage from the local authorities and Lords.

After a couple of hours of discussing how things stood and considering how we might be able to respond to get evidence we could use with as little risk as possible there was a loud explosion outside. The front windows shattered. I ran to the front of the pub as others scrambled further back into the pub away from the noise. Outside was a stormin big dog. I do mean stormin you might call it a Stormweiler. It was about as high on all fours as just above my elbow and it was very agitated. streaming from it randomly were mini whirlwinds and lightning. It was snarling and seemed to be hunting something. The explosion had been lightning striking a keg of flour. Around it was a maelstrom of swirling air and debris, some chunks as big as softballs. On top of that it vanished only to reappear seemingly out of thin air several feet away.

I thought if something isn't done this stormin dog is going to wreck the town, on the bright side those Steen biforkcated  beards being blown every which way was a sight to see, and the all the hair standing up and waving like everyone had put their fingers in electric sockets because of the static charge in the air almost made me laugh. But seriously how do you confront or divert something that can turn the very air into electric soup. I only had one idea. It wasn't very good since I had the least practice with Brass shadows. I walked outside and began to burn my brass shadow focusing on damping anger, fear, panic, while burning my zinc shadow focusing on calm, tired, security, and well being and hoping that as I projected those emotions they could find some hold in the stormweiler.

To my surprise it started to work until I was hit by a lightning bolt from up the street to my left. Everything was scrambled. My illusion dropped and everything went blank. Some weird shape was speaking to me some vines were spinning around me and some bright speck was darting back and forth while I tried to steady myself. Then lightning started to jump from the stormin dog to me and follow the open path to the big bug thing that hit me with lightning in the first place. While the current surged through me I started to understand the weird shape was that Fractal and was I Relcar. That didn't seem right but Fractal told me I could channel that current where I wanted it and away from me I just needed to tap the shadow storm in my metal. A burst of cleansing power shot out of me at the big bug, was that a void bringer? And nothing happened to it.

The stormin dog saw the thing and I have never seen something so big move so fast. One minute it was several yards on my right and the next it was ripping into the bug thing with its teeth. I didn't know what those teeth were made of but that bug armor was no match for it. somewhere in the back of my head I thought I must have revealed the big bug to the stormweiler with the lightning. Arcs of black power, voidlight?, seemed drawn to the stormin dog and then the thing dissolved in place. The Dog looked at me with a hungry expression and I burned aluminum. All the shadow power vanished and my head started to clear. As my head cleared I burned my Identity and slumped to the ground. Ironically the Dog just came over and licked me and laid down next to me as I rebuilt my illusion. It was dark and things happened very fast so no one would notice what I really looked liked. I decided to call the stormin dog Brandy because that was what I felt like having right then. It didn't seem to mind.

We all called it a night after that and walked back to my cottage. The look on the spies faces set to watch me was priceless when I got home. Harvest said "I think we have something new to cultivate here."

18 hours ago, MiaLaD10 said:

Oh, if you are looking for advise to write better I would recommend you to read the advices and class recording from the YouTube channel of Brandon Sanderson. I'm an aspiring writer and those really helped me out! He as videos of general guidelines on how to do plot, characters, setting. 

I'm sure that with lots of practice you will write good books, remember that Brandon wrote like 10 books before getting published! 

Something that I would like to see here is some danger or problems to the character. He is really strong and I get it, so maybe making the problem of losing his own identity bigger? Maybe another identity weaver? Just suggestions or ideas though. 

Anyways, have a great day. 

With love, Mia UwU

 

I have been viewing his classes about 3 semesters worth that have been posted thanks.

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The story's a nice read, and there's some fun ideas here that I can't wait to see developed further!

 

A potential suggestion: at the moment, Quicksilver feels kind of overpowered (which might very well be something you're going for for fun, in which case you can ignore this message). I've got a few thoughts on ways to maybe help with this, but I'll be the first to admit I don't know much about writing, these are just some ideas bouncing around in my head about it.

While it's mentioned it took him years of practice, and we're told it takes him a long time to do some of these things, it doesn't really feel that way because we don't see it too often. Perhaps at some point you could show him back in the past before he'd mastered this skill, and show him struggling with it, to show the reader better that it is something he's had to work hard to learn? I think it could also be useful to maybe in times of great stress, show him slipping a bit when he tries it, to emphasize it takes a lot of focus to effectively do it. It might also give the reader more appreciation for his level of skill, to see how he started and how far he's managed to come.

I think what Mia suggested about making him sometimes a bit too open to the influence of the Identities of others would work as an interesting counterbalance as well. For example, maybe strong emotions of others nearby will lead to spikes in his own emotions, and he has to be careful to control this. Perhaps he starts to slip into roles a bit too heavily (which could lead to interesting interactions with him and Shallan). That kind of thing.

In a similar vein, I think removing the ability to store specific emotions, and instead changing it to generally storing strength of emotion, could be somewhat interesting, as it forces him to both tap and store it much more carefully, but this might ripple to some more core changes to the ability that wouldn't fit well with the story.

 

(Sorry that the positive bit I wrote was so short, while the more criticism-y bit was much longer. It's not intended to reflect negatively on the story, I just usually have a hard time picking out specifics when it comes to the good sides of things; even if my overall opinion is more positive than negative, the pros tend to be a lot vaguer and harder to put to words in my mind.)

You are both right that I need to consider issues unique to him and weaving identities. have you noticed that his ability is more along the lines of mirroring not stealing Identities except in the case of the Blades trauma?

He doesn't actually store emotions from the spren but the part of their identity where they experienced that pain and those effects within their identity. I can see I will need to work on this. Thanks both for the feedback. I am trying to avoid most interactions with established characters which is why I sent him off to some out of the way place that way I have almost complete control of the characters he interacts with.

One piece of feedback I got sometime ago was about being careful including a spoiler character that I wasn't even considering.

19 hours ago, Frustration said:

1. Shardguns are possible
2. We know that blades can physically touch aluminum, there is nothing to indicate that plate cannot
3. adding the ability to burn metals is an increase in investiture
4. An invested individual would resist being soulstamped, so your agent would be just as difficult as a normal person even when storing Identity.
5. it takes five days to bond a blade
6. no indication that identities merge for Radiants+spren
7. no indication that the spren would retain identity, especially after both a broken bond and death.
8. Again all speculation so it doesn't help you

1. a thrown hammer is not a reliable way to break plate
2. Why heavy armor? that doesn't help you at all.

I don't think it would lock up, otherwise a Radiant past fourth oath would have to always have stormlight or they would be stuck, the armor is always there after all.

1. If aluminum was so good Fused would use it instead of Raysium as their weapon of choice.
2. Identity and Connection are different things

  Hide contents

Dirigible (paraphrased)

If you tapped blank Identity in an area, would you develop the area's accent?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's part of what you need. You need to both blank your Identity and tap Connection to get the accent.

Footnote: Sanderson interpreted this question as blanking identity.
Arcanum Unbounded Fort Collins signing (Nov. 29, 2016)

 

Glad you support the idea of shardguns as potentially possible.

Shardplate is made up of a different level of spren than shardblades more on the level of fabrial spren, and Fabrial spren with try to get as far as possible from aluminum according to Dawn shard.

An aluminum compounder can already burn metal and the forger might switch the metal, or Harmony gave him Lerasium and the Forger rewrote him to have the scholarship to most effectivly burn it.

A trueself according to Brandon who fully stores their Identity is vulnerable to Forgers for good or Ill so if they were working with any Forger they would need to trust them implicitly. It is Identity that fowls with stamps over time.

I thought Dalinar bonded the blade in 3 days in WoR?

The indications I am going off are Syl and Kal's or Shallon and Patterns discussions and how they seem to be completing each other's Identities. On that same note as Syl and Kal's bond deepens she seems to recover her identity even the some of part she shared with her last Radiant. Not only do Syl and Kal seem to share part of their Identity but Dalinar and Stormfather seem to be progressing that way as well, especially the Spren. Even Adolin's blade seems to have retained some of that Shared Identity.

It seems to me that you have been doing allot of speculation on Shardplate not entirely supported by others so what is the difference? By the way I think Shardplate requires stormlight to repair but may be like shardblades in that summoning it doesn't require stormlight. If you run out of stormlight then the sections can be destroyed until you get more stormlight. Or maybe it is different and to summon it initially requires stormlight but it will remain until dismissed or damaged when you run out of stormlight.

Steel armor because it serves 3 purposes. 1. It acts as a metalmind with allot of storage space. 2. It resists damage from phyisical and invested sources. 3. it provides extra proteciton enabling much faster speeds before injury.

Within a certain range throwing a heavy hammer like a Thug/Steelrunner could manage would make it a heavy very fast moving projectile and if it hit could do serious damage. The range might even be over long bow or even ballista range.

Aluminum is incredibly rare especially on Roshar and only becoming a viable weapon on Scadrial, and Raysium has the advantage of stealing the Radiants stormlight effectively stopping all their radiant abilities where aluminum only affects the area until removed unless used as a Hemulugic spike, but that it also currently unknown on Roshar. The other problem is that aluminum is not really understood. Now Brandon has said it is meant to be the anti investiture metal and by the relative modern (our time) time of Scadrial it will be very common there like it is to us. We will see all kinds of things made out of aluminum then.

Identity and connection are different but they are also interconnected and nearly inseparable in almost all cases.

I am surprised that you have spent so much time speculating on Shardplate and justifying those speculations with It is your opinion since you spent so much energy criticizing me for doing the same thing. I thought according to you that was out of bounds for this thread?

11 minutes ago, therunner said:

I do agree that using heat is impractical, outside of some extreme scenarios where you have a lot of heat output to waste. I think the armor amortizes outside stimuli, but I think heat sufficient to crack the plate would also overcome this mechanism.

Thank you, I was able to find it now. Huio also speculates that the aluminum interferes with their ability to sense their other half, so the pushing away might not be to because they fear the aluminum, but to get to a better position where they can maximize their contact with their other half in the second gem. If so, this effect would be limited to conjoiners, or generally any fabrial which requires splitting of a gem with captive spren.

And finally, this effect has so far been observed in captive spren only, not in free spren or spren taking on physical form of their own volition.

I sincerely doubt this, it would make shardplate completely useless against anyone wielding aluminum weapons, and that is one big weakness considering that Fused use such weapons routinely. It would effectively nullify the usefulness of shardplate completely. I do think there would some reaction of shardplate to aluminum, but nothing as dramatic as whole sections disappearing or becoming insubstantial.

It would also make deadplate better in some regards, as deadplate clearly does not react in such a way to aluminum (someone would have noticed by now), which is odd.

The Forger would first have to know how to do that, i.e. they would have to know details of allomancy and its spiritual side quite well. Also you would need to get your hands one Lerasium somehow, and I do not see that happening outside of shardic intervention in the near future as it no longer exists.

The only mention I see on coppermind are of turning a person into allomancer generally, not full mistborn specifically. In fact the WoB I linked suggest that it would both very difficult for skill and very intensive on investiture (and some suggest it would not work at all). Storing it as Identity would most likely not work, as the ability to use magic systems is tied to storing nicrosil, so aluminum-twin could not store that. Forgery rewrites spiritweb as a whole, not necessarily just the Identity part. F-nicrosil ferring most likely could per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36/#e1560) but he does not sound sure to me, however it does sound plausible.

Actually forging someone who is already invested is more difficult not less, and part of the difficulty of forging is based on plausibility. In principle if the Forger worked out the heritability of allomancy they might have a shot at going for the correct details in the past so that your spiritDNA has the important bits.

Well just three (four) issues with that

1. Having a connection with deadblade =/= merging its identity to yours. I.e. he simply could not store the identity of the blade, connection and identity are not interchangeable, and having connection to someone (even Nahel bond, and this would not yet be one) does not magically merge Identities.
2. There is nothing whatsoever that suggests that deadblades retain some parts of the original Knights identity. In fact, they seem heavily compromised on their cognitive side. Since whatever did this to them is related to imprisoning of Ba-Ado-Mishram, which robbed Singers of their Identity and Connection, it is highly likely that deadblades also have damaged Connection and Identity aspects. So they would deficient on this front, not possessing more.
3. Reswearing the oaths is not enough (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41/#e7095) to revive deadblade, something else would need to happen.
4. (As far as I know nothing in feruchemy is permanent, outside of copper but even there memories degrade (and have we seen Sazed keep the memories without contact with the copperminds? I think we did but I am not sure).)

I do not need a video of your great grandfather, someone intentionally and consistently hitting the same bullet hole right now would suffice. The other two people you mentioned seem to be quite shrouded in legend, i.e. people tell a lot of tall tales about them. If you have seen videos like that please could you try and point me in their direction? The fastest gunslinger I could find is this person (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Miculek) and his fastest feat is also only accurate within a deck of cards, far cry from ~3.5mm accuracy needed to hit eye slit.

In the first link the Michael Bird is shooting a rifle with a scope at 45 meters while seated on a bench or prone with tri-pod and even then he put the round into a circle of ~18mm diameter, so again not consistent shots with 3.5mm accuracy, even though he has much more precise gun, scope, superior shooting position and all the time in the world to aim. Other comments in the first link repeatedly say, that while possible, any little thing can throw you off, like pulling a trigger in a bad way, or a heartbeat.

In the second link they are talking about accidentally putting a bullet through the same hole twice, not intentionally as your agent would have to.

So I do not see the links as too convincing, the shot is possible on a shooting range with stationary target, but still not consistently enough to rely on it in stressful life or death situation, where a lot of factors are not in your control (like aiming time, angle, that the target moves unlike in your examples with stationary targets, weather).

Concentration of heat might not matter much if the damage is spread across the entire section, but until we know more it is possible. Since shardblade does not bend or dent, piercing factors are not important, as the bullet would not get caught by the plate. And if the shattering of section does work like ablative armor, then the explosion would be consumed by that, even if the section shatter after a single bullet.

We know effects of aluminum on invested weaponry quite well (it just negates the supernatural cutting properties it seems, but nothing else) so we can apply that to its effect on other invested items, like shardplates. This would suggest that aluminum would not do much, if anything. Living plate should have at least the same capabilities as the dead one, as the living blades did have all the abilities of dead ones, and more. So defaulting to properties of deadplate for the living one is reasonable, outside of where we have seen the difference (i.e. sharing living plate, partial summoning, plate being always there etc.)

And there is a difference in trying to piece together some new properties (how aluminum effects shardplate) from known facts (how aluminum effects shardblades, how aluminum is used on Roshar in warfare) versus headcanoning new powers wildly outside of anything we have seen (storing attributes of others using personal feruchemy).

We haven't seen much aluminum used since it is very rare on Roshar only available from Horneater peaks or soulcasting which is stated as very difficult so we really haven't seen it used as a weapon.

The forger wouldn't be adding investiture but switching the conduit of the investiture by forging someone who is already an allomancer. One of the issues with forgery is that a persons identity eventually causes the seal to break down, but a True self can avoid that. That is potentially both good and bad.

From what I have seen connection and identity are both interconnected and inseparable.

I gave you those links to show you it is possible to stack shots even today when it is not so important that someone needs to be that accurate. Scoff at that accuracy if you want I happen to know my Grandfathers were that good with firearms, My father was almost that consistently good and he was blind in one eye. To my knowledge he only met one other person who was better at target shooting than he was and that was in basic training. The guy was a professional marksman before he joined. I don't know if that same man was as good when it came to hunting because I have never met or heard of anyone who was a better shot in that situation, and I know allot of hunters it is kind of a major past time in the area I grew up. Both my grandfather (his father was the Sheriff) and Father told me that gunfighters weren't feared because they were fast but because they hit what they shot. Doc Holiday was deadly because he didn't care if he died so he never rushed a shot, and Porter Rockwell believed Joseph Smith's prophesy that he wouldn't die by a gun so he never rushed a shot either, that being said they were both relatively fast.

We also know that aluminum messes with investiture and can shut down invested healing until removed, is immune to gravity and adhesion surges as well as others. Wax should have made more of an effort to get some of those aluminum bullets to use on Miles, because they would have worked.

@LewsTherinTelescope So living plate can seal, but most shardbearers or Radiants out of stormlight would suffocate if the face plate sealed.

I was thinking that a Thug/Steelrunner would prove to be a formidable opponent. Pewter physical enhancement with stored pewter speed ferrruchemically tappable. Give him some invested steel armor for protection from hits, windresistance and Friction and a durable heavy hammer and some aluminum spikes to use after shattering his opponents armor and most Radiants would be hurting. Only those who can stay out of reach would have any safety, but he could probably shot put throw the hammer (I think it is actually called a hammer throw) a good distance up let alone long for effect. Steelrunner speed added to pewter enhanced physical abilities in the hammer throw.

15 hours ago, MiaLaD10 said:

As wheelbarrow said above, I think we all can agree it is a fun reading. My kitty recently had some health problems and my mood wasn't the best, but with *Identity weaver* you managed to make me laugh and feel better! So thanks a lot for that. 

I would love to read some more, I want to see some more spren interactions and to know what is happening! Are the guys that contacted him part of the ghostbloods? Will someone discover what is going on with his abilities? Or what if Hoid shows up and shakes things up? Those are all the things I'm wondering. UwU 

Also, would you be okay with me or another people writing fanfics about Quicksilver? I liked him, tough he was cool and funny as a character and I now want to see him in lots of situations!

Thank you for writing this, honestly. And I hope that, if you decide to continue writing it, you can have a time as good as we had passed while reading it. Uwu

With love, Mia UwU 

 

Edit: Also, what is a Sai? 

I got caught up in another thead, but always meant to return. I was also feeling like I needed to get back to the Spren and weaving more of them into the story. I was also having trouble thinking of where to go next.

Thanks for the encouragement. You may have noticed that not many have viewed my story.

I welcome any ideas since one of the reasons for this attempt is to refine my writing as I work on my own fiction since my first self published book wasn't very well received.

a Sai is a Japanese dagger like weapon that has a strait cross bar with both ends pointing forward.

@MiaLaD10 No I wouldn't mind you writing Quicksilver Just give me a heads up so I can enjoy it with you. See Sai below. I'll wait on Hoid though I do plan on Harmony at some point.

When I got home later that night Lumina, Fractal, and Harvest gathered around. They had avoided openly interacting with me outside so as not to attract unnecessary attention.

Lumina said, "I know that I am new, but isn't antagonizing people you used to hang with kind of dangerous even if you don't look the same?"

Fractal piped up saying, "these new lies are very delicious."

Harvest said, " I'm with Lumina. We have only just begun to take root here, how does drawing more intense light help?"

I smiled and said "groups like the Ghostbloods thrive in the shadows and the dark. I know Flander and know people like Ander. To them I am an unknown. They can't risk an open conflict with me, and anything strange that happens to me would draw unwanted attention for now. They can't be sure what, how much or who I know. Because of this their next move will be to try and draw me out. For now I think we need to act as if what they want is irrelevant to us."

"I don't understand" Said Lumina, "conflict could reveal you. Isn't that a problem?"

"If Ander see's through the illusion he will link me back to Shallon and pass me off as some amateur attempt on her part to get more information. Because of that he will think he can handle me on his own. If Flander pierces the illusion he will think I am an impotent aluminum nat easily handled and reacquired and with his arrogance he will think if he calls for help with me he will lose face with his crew. In the mean time both will enter a holding pattern observing to discover more of my secrets while I can build a network in the area to watch them knowing they will be watching me and tracking them back from there." I explained.

On another topic I said "After associating with the three of you I am becoming increasingly more concerned with fate of your other dead brother, cousins, and sisters still trapped like you were. I am not sure of how many other bonds I can take on to revive them, but I would like to release them back to their previous state. Do you have any idea's?"

16 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

We don't that's how it works yet, so let's move away from that line of thinking.

 

Spren are not repelled by aluminum, that is a misunderstanding of what aluminum is. It's just immune to magical effects.

 

No, aluminum would just react to shardplate as if it were a normal metal, negating its supernatural durability. 

In the Dawn shard (Just finished it this weekend) Lopen and Huio discovered that Spren in a span reid are repelled by Aluminum and try to get as far away as possible.

12 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

 Once we’re on the topic...

Can a Bondsmith dismiss someone else’s Living Plate, just get rid of the Connection 

If you somehow pierced a L-Plate with Aluminum would the Connection be Severed, and the Spren go away?

Dismiss living plate maybe not, but hijacking it would seem to be in the realm of probability. They are really not suppose to divide connection but transferring connection seems to be within their ability.

I am not sure the Plate gets pierces so much as the possibility of the spren making it up might try to avoid being touched by it so perhaps a whole section disappears or becomes insubstantial at contact. That is wild speculation, but given some examples like the Spanreid fiasco in Dawn Shard seems possible. Not sure how likely. Since plate is made up of lesser spren and lesser investiture they might respond more violently than a Shardblade which we know will impact aluminum.

9 hours ago, therunner said:

I agree, my point was that the heat would have to be large enough to shatter the entire section, supplying enough heat to melt a small part would not be enough. Do we have any examples of shardplate being subjected to large heat?

 

Reread that passage, and you are correct. Scabbard seem to be around 3-4 mm thickness, so it seems that that is sufficient to block Nightblood and therefore most likely shardblade.

A thought, Nightblood was an ordinary sword before being awakened, as such is it possible it actually has less shard physical edge then shardblades?

Shardguns would not be possible with just a spren, spren need to form continuous shape, so no bows and arrows and no guns with bullets. There are some hints it could be done, but it would most likely require some add-on which would supply bullets.

Getting to Sel is exceedingly difficult even for experienced worldhoppers (the whole 'plasma storm' in congitive realm) so that would be very difficult trip. Second Forgery would most likely not give access to metallic arts, it requires great skill (beyond Shai) and it also requires large amount of investiture (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11253) and finally Forgery will collapse when moved off-world (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/127/#e5192) It would also interfere with their natural Feruchemy (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/216/#e6477).

Oddly there is also this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/96/#e3197), saying you could make a stamp to make someone Allomancer, but it would not actually do anything. So it seems that it possibly might not be fully decided if Forgery can be used to grant access to off-world magic systems.

Also most people here assume that both Scadrial and Roshar is united, so assisting Honor against Odium is not feasible reason for the purpose of the discussion. Of course if he did, he could simply ask bondsmith to try and bond him to deadblade and he could try and attract spren on his own, no need to coerce/trick spren of Radiants he killed.

Yes but if it can be tapped in part, then it does not work like copperminds and definitely has to be continuously tapped to maintain the effect. Forger would also make a great enemy, but alas their magic works only on Sel, and unlike the Ire we have no example of successfully getting it off-world.

Problem is that to revive spren of a deadblade bonds are insufficient as far as we know, se the agent would fail at the very first step. And swearing oaths takes time and dedication, just swearing them without fully understanding them and meaning them means nothing. Plus the oaths need to be accepted by seemingly either Stormfather/Dalinar or Cultivation, and the spren must be willing as well, although there is argument that maybe they cannot refuse earnest oaths and Stormfather just talks big game.

Great, if there were Olympics back then he would be Olympian, still does not make it any easier. And rifles are much better at distance shooting than guns, with the long barrel, higher ammo velocity and more stable firing position. Also stories tend to get embellished with time, so 130-150 year old hearsay is not exactly a good argument. Frankly I was unable to find a single video or example of someone hitting a bullet on top of another bullet, much less doing it repeatedly and consistently. Maybe it is just the search algorithm not being cooperative, but if you have such examples please do provide it.

Spren do not avoid aluminum at all, in fact they do not seem to pay much attention to it. Aluminum weapon would definitely not pass unhindered, at best it would negate the supernatural resistance of the plate, but the physical aspect of plate would definitely remain. Argument could be made that at least to some extant the shardplate would maintain its supernatural resistance as well, because metalminds being in touch with aluminum does not affect them in any way, suggesting aluminum does not influence internal effects of investiture.

On the bondsmith, I do not think he could force someone to dismiss the plate for two reasons:

1.  Plate interferes with the surges, so it should definitely make it more difficult, or stop it outright.
2. Ishar did not seem to be able to make them dismiss the Shardblades, or at least he did not attempt it.

I think bondsmith unchained might be able to steal the entire bond and with it the plate, but he would need to assign that connection to someone/something. And again, I am not sure if the plate would not at least hinder such attempt.

On the second point, since aluminum seems to have only the passive effect of resisting investiture (blocking investiture from passing through, being unaffected, blocking healing in its vicinity) I do not think it would do anything to the connection. Driven hard enough it might shatter a section, but I do not think it would have any spiritual effect on the spren. If the aluminum was driven with Hemalurgic intent, I...have no idea, as we know little of what spiking spren would do, and much less of what spiking spren in shardplate/shardblade form would do (if it is even possible).

If a Spren can only form a solid object then a Shard pistol would be a no go, but if it is dependent on what the Radiant knows about then moving parts might not be a problem. The bullets could be like manifesting Shardplate or in my scenario it might even be some of the other higher Spren. Bullets wouldn't be a problem they are solid. Just replace them in charged casings he already has for his pistols.

Having a Forger write an Identity to know how to maximize burning Lerasium  and using that Identity on Sel could avoid any problem. In the coppermind one of the examples was of a Forger writing a soul into a full mistborn. The other solution is to store that Identity in aluminum to be tapped anywhere. That would mean the identity is linked to the metal and thus to Harmony and not to Sel anymore. Forging someone into having more allomantic powers might work since they are already innately invested that way you are just giving them more conduits for that investiture.

During the bonding process (it takes 3 days) with the dead shardblade I presume that that the person links some of their identity with that of the blade. I also presume that with that link a Truesoul might be able to transfer some of the blades identity into a metal mind perhaps the part related to the broken bond, perhaps even some residual shadow of the Radiants identity remembered in the blade. If that were possible it facilitate reviving the Spren especially if the person then forged a more powerful bond through oaths. Again I am speculating on how storing Identity works. Identity does seem to be something which can be permanently tapped or stored.

Yeah my great grandparents couldn't have been videoed since they were about a century ago.  My gunslinging Grandfather was a pony express rider in his younger years and a Sheriff in his later years known for his skill both in tracking and gunfighting. There are a number of others from around that era that were also reputed to be about that good like Porter Rockwell, and Doc Holiday. I have also seen videos of people alive who are also that accurate. I think there is one about the fastest gunslinger To see his video he could shoot 6 times so fast it sounded like 2 extended shots and hit 6 small targets within 25 ft in spread over an arc of about 150 degrees. Don't underestimate the skill of someone who really works at a skill.

Here are some examples of bullet stacking

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to-shoot-two-bullets-through-the-same-bullet-hole Pay attention to Michael Bird.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12179-Saw-a-bullet-go-through-exact-same-hole

My great gandfather was using more like a muzzle loader. He was the guy that when people came to town bragging about how well they could shoot He was asked to compete. He even beat one guy with his own rifle after only one test shot  in which he determined not only that the rifle sites were off but corrected for it and bullseyed every shot after.

@therunner The amount of heat would depend on a number of factors. How concentrated the heat is. How heat conductive the Plate is. Does the bullet have other properties like a tungsten core in which case the heat isn't the piercing factor but a destructive after affect trapped by the plate. Is the round explosive as well. In my research on this there were some pretty nasty bullets described. Then in the Cosmere we have the wildcard affect of aluminum which is also not fully understood. We don't know the full capability of Shardplate or how resistant to damage it is or if Living shardplate has the same qualities even though we do know it can be broken if it takes enough damage. Is using shardplate beyond this thread since even now its limits are not well understood only that it seems to have some?

19 hours ago, The Technovore said:

I--*inhale* *exhale*, my suspension of disbelief would allow for someone with the ability of Wax, or of Kelsier, or of Jasnah, and being the servant of a Shard. Quicksilver seems to have the powers of all of them. That's hard to believe. That's a protagonist, right there. I was under the impression that we weren't supposed to be using protagonists as prime examples of magic system capabilities. How would Quicksilver fare against Oath 4 Kaladin?

 

The scabbard fits the sword perfectly--it's shard enough to be an effective sword on it's own. Nightblood's scabbard is specially made for nightblood, and the tightness of the scabbard means that nightblood doesn't hit the scabbard with momentum and weight, like it did for the rage-fueled swing at the Honorblade. "How thick does it need to be able to block a shardblade." Not stupidly thick, but it will chip, and bend, and deform, and break under sufficient physical force. Like that behind a hammer swing.

Like @Frustration said, just grabbing up any room for interpretation and using it as liberally as possible is both counterintuitive and disingenuous. Do you see us talking about how they could make plate as thick as they wanted because all they need is more spren so they could make entire sprentanks? Do you see us theorizing that you could use Gravitation to outperform any other siege artillery by miles, short of railguns? (which, by the way, @therunner ran the math on that in another thread. They make trebuchets look like weenies.) Do you see us talking about Division just melting all Scadrian Armies or using Anti-Light to kill Harmony or using Connection-y Bondsmith Powers to turn windspren into honorspren, or to steal Metalborn abilities? All of that (exception of one that actually has some mathematical backing) would be dishonest of us because this is a discussion about what we know that each magic system can do based on the evidence that is released up to now. 

We know that Radiants will be able to leave Roshar and take their spren with them. This requires a changing of the spren spiritweb to no longer be connected to Roshar, which would require something happening with the Shard of Honor and likely its perpendicularity. I can speculate that Dalinar will win the Contest of Champions by ascending to the Shard of Honor. Shortly after doing this he kills Odium and takes up that Shard as well, forming the Shard of War (or Conquest). He'll believe that he can temper Odium's Intent, but quickly falls to it. Then he'll turn his sights on Scadrial, and, realizing that they also have a DiShard and their agents are on Roshar, he'll begin making preparations to de-invest his Shard from Roshar, which will allow his Radiants to cross the CR to Scadrial. Since he has incredible Shardic knowledge, he'll inspire the scholars at Urithiru and bring to Rosharans guns, armor, tanks, better flying airships, and knowledge on how to use the surges and fabrials to out-tech Scadrial. War moves into the Scadrian system and punches a hole through the CR in the middle of Elendel. His Skybreakers and Dustbringers flood out and turn the city to ash. Since Harmony was under pressure from its conflicting Intent and from Trell, he can do very little to stop War except by Snapping as many metalborn as possible. Unfortunately for every metalborn he snaps, another thousand Scadrians die to the blitzkrieg of Skybreakers tearing apart every military and economic asset they have. Then through War's perpendicularity emerges the proper Rosharan army. The infantry, loaded with guns, Anti-Light grenades, and Shardblades made from the dead Voidspren that War killed when he took up Odium. They destroy NorScad within a week, and begin invading SoScad, their surges leaving scorched earth in their wake. When War shows his Radiants how they can use surges to split the atom, fire lasers, cleave the earth in two, and cause tectonic instability on a grand scale, they can turn Scadrial into the new Ashyn at their whim.

Did any of that make sense, given what we know? Probably not. I expect everyone here to tear it apart. But hey, there's a lot we don't understand about realmatics. Can anyone actually prove me wrong? Do you see the problem? If we're just going to speculate as much as possible, this is going to turn into a couple of five-year-olds' "imagination duel" where one goes "I shoot you with my death star!" and the other goes "nuh-uh! I have a force field tha--that blows up death stars!" Speculation and imagination is fun, but there needs to be more reasonable limits or this won't go anywhere. 

The scabbard was used to deflect Nightblood by a fused so it can take impact and has been stated that it is aluminum. It seems that the thickness necessary to resist cutting by even Nightblood is the thickness of one side of a scabbard.

I would have loved to have someone say the Radiants were calling more Spren to thicken their plate or some of the other potentially speculative ideas based on what we know of radiants. I was considering having Quicksilver summon shardpistols with shardbullets to fight Radiants after bonding the Spren. With the idea that the Spren can take any form the Radiant can imagine. I know another idea way out there.

Another reason I thought of that someone from Scadrial might go to Roshar would be because Harmony (who has been shown to be worried about Odium and his ambitions) sent him. He might have him stop off at Sel to work with a Forger to write an identities where he has access to other allomantic arts, and or scholarship to use Lerasium correctly and even supplied him with the metal which might potentially be used to give him the capability to burn Godmetals like shardplate and blades. He might be sent to assist Honors forces in countering Odium's forces.

I presume your scenerio takes place if Odium wins the contest. Personally I think Dalinar will ascend to become Honor and then ally himself with Odium and cultivation to combat a greater threat to the Cosmere along with Harmony. Of course if Dalinar becomes the Shard of War being Honor he can simply release himself to conquer the Cosmere. The some of the weaponry you propose would make sense on a second engagement or later. Things like guns, tanks, explosives and so forth. Fabrials seem to be fragile so they would need some way to shield them or risk their destruction.

12 hours ago, therunner said:

[citation needed]. Since storing it is described in degrees, that in fact suggests that it does not work like copper (or potentially) nicrosil, in being something discrete to be taken or stored. And if I remember correctly, even for tapping coppermind you need to be in contact with it, but here I am unsure.

Spren bond to spiritweb. There is some relation between spiritweb, spiritual DNA, Identity, Connection and possibly Fortune (I am basing this one on Kal's talent with spear), but that does not make them interchangeable.

Either way, to even make claim you could access the dead radiants identity, you would need to first initiate the bond yourself, so that the spiritwebs merge with the spren so that its identity merges with yours. And even this has the issue that after first oath the bond can be easily broken without any ill effects, suggesting that spiritwebs are not connected much. I could maybe see this if someone with Aluminum had reached fifth oath with deadblade, but I would still see it as very unlikely.

Per the quote you quoted it does not purify spirit of injury, it "may be possible to cleanse spirit of unwanted effects of investiture". So, only spirit may be cleansed, and only if the effect was caused by Investiture which got into their spiritweb.

This might be distinction without difference, but it suggests that if you damage the spiritweb without using Investiture directly, the effect might not be removable by Aluminum. And savantism carries downsides as well, so becoming savant to be able to heal spiritual wounds caused by investiture may not be a smart idea, depending on what the downsides of savantim are.

In neither case anything in the books suggests charge is needed. And as @Frustration stated, those used in RoW were only in storage, possibly freshly build. If they required some charge Navani would worry about that, yet she does not and just grabs some. Everything in the books suggests that painrials simply magnify whatever feelings are there, sort of like Rioting physical sensations, no storage required.

'Just' reason to fight on a recon mission on another world (so illegal immigrant at best) against someone who does not even know (per your other comments) that Scadrial is a thing? How is proactive violence against someone who wages no war against you and yours nor prepares for one, and who in fact does not even know you exist (again per your other comments), how is that 'just'? You imply that Rosharan has no knowledge of Scadrian weapon, and in fact has little reason to suspect anyone without light is dangerous, so why would a fight against someone who clearly has no clue Scadrial is a thing, or any intentions to attack it, be justified? Either

1. Roshar is actively preparing for war with Scadrial, which would imply that they have at least some information about it and its capabilities, then Agents actions could be called 'just' but he would lose his information advantage and Rosharan would most likely be prepared for a fight with someone with guns (so visor down -> no headshot kill -> agent dead in this scenario).
2. Roshar is not actively preparing for war with Scadrial and has not information about it, then your Agents actions are not 'just' by any meaning of the word, as he simply murdered someone without any reason other than proactive violence against Roshar.

One of the things we do know about F-Aluminum, is that when you are storing Identity, you are more susceptible to Forgery. So whlie the Agents is storing they are more susceptible to Spiritual attacks, in principle someone could quite easily overwrite their Identity forcibly when they are storing completely.

Also, nothing suggests you can tap/store only some parts of Identity, you cannot tap/store only upper body strength for example.

Thicker than one wall of scabbard. Resting an edge against surface is quite different from hitting the surface with any force. I can rest an axe against a log of wood without it going clean through, but if I put any force into the axe it will go through easily.

In the current time the only Scadrians that now anything about Roshar are those involved with Ghostbloods. (and those wild Feruchemists that keep appearing), from what we know. Set seems to have some knowledge of extraplanetary things, but we do not know how much info is Trell sharing.

Conversely, Roshar has easy access to Cognitive realm, their leadership now knows about other planets (Nalthis, Taldain, Scadrial if I remember correctly) and the spren society seems to be quite involved with worldhoppers (paintings from Nalthis for sale, silver chains from Threnody, etc.). Since we know that there was interplanetary trade though Pits of Hathsin, it should be easy for any spy to learn about Scadrial, Allomancy and Feruchemy from the spren or worldhoppers, even if only to Era 1 level of knowledge. This would still prepare them to fight Mistborn/Feruchemists and to assume that small propelled objects fired from seemingly nowhere can be very dangerous.

The problem with that, from my perspective, is that when we are comparing speculation to speculation, then only sky is the limit.

For example, up until RoW no one had any reason to suspect that stealing a bond (or any connection manipulation really) for unchained Bondsmith is as easy as reaching out and and moving connection lines. Or that they could drain away Radiants stormlight by connecting them to ground. What if they could simply take over the connection to Preservation when allomancer burns the metal, so that it is now the Bondsmith who gets the benefit of the metal burning? Or just simply move that connection to ground to remove the Investiture from Mistborn like Ishar did to Radiants? Or move the connection lines from metal to mistborn to themselves?

In principle all of the above proposals are not that large extrapolation of Bondsmith powers, but I still feel that they are dishonest in this discussion. As pure speculation? Sure, why not. But when trying to compare two different worlds whose interaction we have not seen it makes more sense to me to stick to what we have seen, with maybe applying known effects to different goals then in-story characters have though so far (like making shardblade resistant armor from metalminds, semi-shardblades from metalminds, ettmetal weaponry, painrial mines etc.)

Wax is the marksmen on Scadrial, in future they will have comicbooks based on his exploits. There is a reason modern soldiers/agents/policemen are trained to target the body, as that is the easiest thing to target, like in the (in-)famous Mozambique Drill technique. Sure, training against shardbearers would take into account that  body shots will do nothing, but that does not change the fact that hitting just a head is a difficult thing to pull off in high pressure scenarios. Impossible? No. Highly unlikely? Yes.

And we are not talking about heads, but about eye slot in armor. Per quick google around, most medieval armor eye slits were in the 4-8mm range in total height, so for a shot from ~7m into the slot 7mm in height you need to have a gun barrel aligned to precision of 0.25mm,  and that is assuming 25cm long gun barrel. For concealed carry the ~10 cm barrels are usually used, giving you only 0.1mm tolerance on aiming.

That is beyond Olympic level performance, and life or dead situation are a bit more stressful than that, not to mention the Agent would not have time to assume ideal shooting position, nor time to calm his breaths, nor time to aim as he liked.

EDIT:  I am surprised that I did not think of this sooner, but most of the usually used bullets have diameter that is comparable to the height of the slot, with the smallest being 4mm. So now the shot needs to be even more precise, as the above calculation kinda assumed that the bullet is point object (which was sloppy of me). If the visor is 7mm and the bullet is 4mm, than the bullet can deviate only by 1.5mm to either up or down to go through cleanly, in numbers (assuming the 10cm barrel of concealed carry gun) that is allowed deviation from the perfect hand position of 0.042mm roughly the width of 3 human hairs. But if the bullet is equally sized, than they need to pull of pretty much perfect shot, and if the bullet is larger than no luck.

If you are counting on Rosharans unfamiliarity does that mean you acknowledge that without knowledge advantage twin aluminum scadrian does not stand much chance?

No need, per

  Reveal hidden contents

Sixth of the Dusk sequel we know that -light-spren restriction can be overcome and they can use -light and sprenblades and shardplates in other star systems.

so getting agent to Scadrial is not speculative (outside of if they can figure it out this soon) and their reason could be just a recon just like yours. Conversely, how could the Scadrian get to Roshar without anyone noticing is another question entirely, as Scadrian would have to use perpendicularity to travel and Shadesmar is quite populated and now in contact with Rosharans.

Shardfork still cut (or stabbed more precisely) anything in its path with ease. So it seems that all you need to take advantage of the cutting aspect of spren-whatever is edge, or a tip.

Whether shardblades cut cognitive only after spiritual is not known as far as I am aware. In fact I mostly red it that the shardblade cuts on spiritual and cognitive (where applicable) level first, and the second cut is only on the physical realm. But admittedly, I do not know.

Yeah, that store Iron reforge into sword would be quite nice trick. I think it was a bit of an accident (if he had attributes the other way around it would not work), but very happy one, maybe I am underestimating Brandon here.

 

@The Technovore This challenge is accepted. (in good spirits of course )

1. I do not think we have ever seen direct shardic action, except against other shards (Elend fueled with Preservation vs Marsh powered by Ruin directly). So no sharing of knowledge (although this might be okay) and no punching of hole from CR in the middle of Elendel. However Elsecaller could quickly take Bondsmith to the Elendel who would then open the perpendicularity.
2. Harmony might well splinter under such pressures to give way to Discord, which might in some ways be more dangerous to the Rosharans or be inclined to join with War (War and Discord sounds like sure friends).
3. Also Harmony might produce Lerasium (or tell how to extract if from ettmetal) and give it to Feruchemists to create at least 12 Fullborn (we have seen only 12 beads I think, so I take that as soft upper bound), who with at least some preparation (few days) should be able to ruin quite a few Radiants and general Rosharans armies. In fact I think only a bondsmith unchained could stand against just one of them.
4. Kelsier would involve himself, and he might be fullborn-like at this point.
5. I do not think voidspren would leave deadblades behind, only bonded Higher spren (of at least 3rd oath) leave behind blades.
6. Division would not be able to split atom (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122/#e3308) .
7. Having knowledge of lasers and communicating it well enough for Rosharans to understand might not be so easy, lasers are much more than just a bright source of light, so you would need them to understand that 1) light is waves 2) light is also not waves 3) light must be produced to be space and time coherent .

Based on what I have read Identity seems to be able to be stored or tapped in full or in part. A forger would make a great ally for an Aluminum ferring since they are potentially so easily forged.

I did have the dead agent bond the dead blade over a few days with each new blade then swear the oaths to the level of the former Radiant. So I was trying to indicate they formed a bond to revive the Spren. Regardless I was trying to anticipate what might be possible based on the stated abilities of the metal, but since no one has shown what an Aluminum ferring can do and according to all of you it must have been shown to be discussed there are many things that cannot be discussed on both Roshar and Scadrial.

I am sorry to hear that anticipating or speculating on possible interactions base on what we do know is beyond the scope of this discussion, but I suppose I should have guessed.

My great grandfather could shoot like that. He was known to shoot the door knob off the local chapel during church at a full gallop and if he had ever missed he would have killed someone, so making such a shot is plausible. His father was just as good with a rifle and was known to stack bullets.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Hello, I would add one information that I kind of lost sight off, and I am unsure if others did not as well.

Shardplate is described as neither bending nor denting, in fact hits either shatter the section, or cause cracks to run through the section. Whether this effect also extends to thermal damage is not yet known, but I would assume that it does. When the section breaks it also explodes into pieces of metal. These two effects combined remind me of tempered glass, which is glass which has internal tension which strengthens it. In addition, in at least some (I did not go through all) situations where the section breaks, the blow is never described as damaging further layers, suggesting that the when the section breaks it function as ablative armor and absorbs the rest of the strength of the blow.

The above facts suggest that creating bullets which would punch straight through shardplate is most likely very difficult (if not straight up impossible), as the bullet would have to 1) Shatter the entire section at once, and 2) Also not be affected by the potential ablative effect of the exploding section and damage deeper sections. It also suggests that melting through plate might be impossible, as the sections would shatter whole rather than having holes burned through, i.e. the heat would have to supply enough energy to shatter the entire section, not just enough to melt a small hole.

I have completely missed this fact, at it would have been useful in previous discussions. If there are counterexamples (blow shattering a section and damaging a deeper one as well), please let me know.

I wish you had said that before as well.

Since shardplate is pure investiture and since Spren move as far away from aluminum as possible I had a thought that an aluminum weapon might just pass through shardplate completely unhindered especially living plate.

On 3/27/2021 at 4:57 PM, therunner said:

No, any storing/tapping of identity is temporary, that is what Feruchemy does temporarily change some attributes of Feruchemist.

Again, most likely no. If Identity stored for example understanding or experience, than completly storing your Identity (pre-requisite to creating unkeyed metalminds) would result in them loosing their ability to store/tap (as it is partly a learned skill). Nicrosil as we know, only stores investiture in ones own spiritweb, not one connected to it. Aluminum has no expansion potential, that would require you to force your identity on some other investiture, outside of scope of all metallic arts.

Per coppermind, aluminum heals cognitive aspect, it will do nothing about physical wounds, no matter what the source of the physical wound.

No, Identity identifies what investiture belongs to whom. Close connection does not imply shared identity, and again whatever connection the Radiant had, since the blade you are talking about is deadblade, the connection was explicitly broken.

Really? What is the nature of this link? Please do say more.

Nope, you just take a fabrial press a button and you are done, no charging (outside of stormlight) necessary. She literally just puts it against the skin of someone and flips a switch.

Except the spren who do bond very clearly do not think that they can blame people currently alive for the sins of the past? Or they feel they need to to protect themselves from Odium? That is quite different from working with someone who killed someone(EDIT) you chose to bond with, I would even say that the Agent stealing (which is outside the scope of F-aluminum, but whatever) part of their partners souls would make them revile the Agent, not make it simpler. Me killing someones husband and then wearing their skin around them will not make it easier for them to accept me.

Well, but if the Roshar is in conflict with Scadrial which has invested non-glowy people, why are they not more suspicous? Again, why do give information advantage to the Scadrian but deny it to Roshar?

Navani did it in specially equipped lab after weeks of experiments. And F-nicrosil does not allow you to modify what you are storing. Why do you keep insisting on adding on new things on known abilities? Nicrosil stores investiture, period. It does not change investiture.

And @BenduLuke

calling someones views narrow and implying that they cannot understand basic and simple ideas is an insult.  When people disagree with you, you seem to have a tendency to take on a bit of condescending tone, implying that you are capable of great intuitive leaps, that your ideas are simple and those who do not see it are narrow minded.

No one has to accept your explanation which has no supporting basis whatsoever, outside of your own imagination.

Identity appears to be the one thing you can store or tap that is permanent.

What makes up Identity? It seems to me it would be personality, experience, training, talents, and skills up to that point in life With aluminum it is descibed as spiritual sense of Identity." This ability is not fully understood. The not fully understood is where there is allot of room to speculate so I do. I do think there is a cognitive aspect to it as well as a physical aspect. It is the identity that Spren bond to and over time and oaths the Radiant and Spren Identities complete each other or in other words partially merge. Any later bonds with that Spen will include some of that Identity.

Per coppermind Aluminum-A purifies the spirit of injury. "an Allomantic savant with aluminum, it may be possible to cleanse their spirit of unwanted effects of Investiture."

I seem to remember that Navani had been storing pain for some time so when she inverted the painrial and used it on her attackers that is what disabled them. Same with the one she set up as a trap for the fused.

The Highspren that bonded Quicksilver felt he had a just reason to fight his previous Knight in defense of his world and felt he had a just desire to revive dead spren so accepted his bond. It made it easier that part of the Skybreakers Identity was now part of Quicksilver. Here is a quirky potential for aluminum. A person can store all the Identity. They are then a blank slate. If exposed to another Identity they could potentially be open to that and store it as well then tap the best parts of each Identity forming a new better Identity in the process. Over time through this Identity sifting process they could have Identities to use in any circumstance, but unlike forgers theirs are permanent until stored again. Nowhere does it say they can only store only their original Identity and Aluminum is as Brandon said weird and still not understood which I interpret to mean it may not operate like other metals. It almost seems like a potential God metal itself without a shard.

How thick does it need to be to block a shardblade. Only as thick as one wall of a sword scabbard. That is against Nightblood perhaps the most powerful shardblade in the Cosmere. Nightblood didn't even chip it like he did to an honorblade.

In the current state it's possible that some on Scadrial know about Roshar and the potential for invasion at some time, but the opposite is not true. So sending agents to scout is an acceptable precaution. Almost all Skybreakers serve Odium so are most likely to be a Scadrian's Radiant opponent. Additionally the agents are equipped with general anti-magic gear according to their abilities. Quicksilver, if aluminum works the way I speculate, acquired intelligence from ancient Spren on what to expect so had a major information advantage. Rosharan's are not familiar with Scadrian weapons and don't see any red flags like glowing or shards that worry them until it is to late. The Scadrian's on the other hand are used to taking the attitude of threat until proven other wise.

No none of you need to accept my explanation or speculation, but with all the hand waving and open potentials still in the system rejecting my speculation out of hand because it doesn't fit your idea of how it works is also disingenuous. In other words when you say it doesn't work that way when things haven't been fully explained it feels like an insult to me, and until recently I feel I have been very patient with the condescending tones of many of those who respond to me.

On 3/27/2021 at 6:32 PM, The Technovore said:

Shardblades cut in the Physical and Spiritual Realms because they are literally the bodies of spren. The Spiritual Realm is the realm of Investiture, Connection, and Identity, while the Physical Realm is the realm of Matter and Energy, and the Cognitive is the realm of minds, souls, and perceptions. Spren bridge all three realms. Their spark of life and their bodies comes from the Spiritual, their minds are sprung from the thoughts of humans, and through human thought and the Nahel bond they manifest in the Physical as godmetal. This is not a mistake, as we see godmetal first described in Mistborn as created "from the body of the Shard themself" which is significant in a theory I'm building.

This is why when Shardblades cut, they attack the soul directly, in the Spiritual Realm. All the surges work on similar principles. Gravitation. Adhesion. Cohesion. Soulcasting. They are all direct manipulations of Physical processes by manipulating the Cognitive and Spiritual components of objects and beings, fueled by the Investiture that leaks from the Spiritual to the Physical via the Shardic perpendicularities. Hemalurgy works on similar principles to this, using base-16 metals to attack the Spiritweb and steal components, with Ruin's Investiture fueling the interaction. Allomancy works on principles closer to the Dor on Sel. The Investiture of Preservation enters the Physical Realm to exert change, using the metals being burned to determine the effect the power has. If the main types of Invested Arts we see now are either based on affecting the Spiritweb or Directing Shardic Power, Feruchemy sits closely in the middle. Feruchemy allows one to use Investiture to manipulate and twist their own spiritweb in a series of ways.

I believe that Identity and Investiture when pertaining to spiritwebs describe two different parts of a spiritweb. I don't think it's Identity that allows a spren's body to cut in the Spiritual, but rather that because a Spren exists as living Investiture, and therefore is innately from the Spiritual Realm, the damage it does is direct to a spiritweb. You might use Connection/Identity shenanigans to speed up the recovery of a spren, but we won't know until the interaction between Adolin and Maya is properly explained. 

What I don't like about the Quicksilver scenario is that it requires a heavy amount of plot-power in Quicksilver. Quicksilver to do these things must have the aim of Waxillium, the competency of Kelsier, the virtue of Adolin, and the knowledge of Jasnah as well as the planning and foresight that could only come from being the direct servant of a Shard. If we're going to go that route, I could write a similar story about Heln the Edgedancer who under the direction of Cultivation did a bunch of Rosharan-magic hacking and teamed up with Kalak to go to Scadrial and steal the Bands of Mourning to open a perpendicularity on Scadrial and trap Odium in the Scadrian system. While mechanically I can jump through the mental hoops required to make it work mechanically, how likely is it to happen without a ton of plot-armor and authorial manipulations?

So you don't think it is the cutting identity of a blade that allows for spiritual cutting? When spren become hammers, shields or forks they don't cut the spirit web or spirit connection of the part. Identity is a cross realm attribute inherent in all semi-sentient or living things.

Wax isn't the only marksman so choosing a marksman as a scout would be a good idea. He certainly would become more virtuous as he made oaths to Revive the Spren. Scouts must be compitent you don't just send average Joe to a potentially aggressive difficult to reach world. I am counting on the unfamilarity of Rosharan's to Scadrian weapons to give the scout a major edge. As both a Ferring and Misting he does have a bond with two Shards to begin with. After reviving the Shardblades he has a bond with multiple shards.

Sure speculate and write a scenerio where Heln figures out how to overcome the stormlight-spren restriction to reach Scadrial with a plausible reason why they do it (perhaps to scout a possible invasion). I would love to see it.

On 3/28/2021 at 1:36 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Tbf, he does say "...but it's gonna take a roundabout method to make it happen...", so it's possible that could refer to that. (On the other hand, there are other things it could mean, so it's not a confirmation by any stretch.)

@BenduLuke Brandon's mentioned that godmetals pierce the Realms a bit. Presumably that's why. You cut the person Physically, and the sword passes through their other aspects too. (That's my theory on it, anyway.)

What I was saying is that the cutting identity of the shardblade (it is a blade) enables it to first cut the spiritual connection then it can cut everything else afterwards? Cutting only becomes part of their identity when they become a blade. If they are a Hammer, Shield, or Fork they don't have that part of their identity. Consider a shard scalpel would be great for cancer surgery as it could sever the spiritual connection of the cancer especially in the hands of Kal.

Note until the spiritual connection is severed the Shardblade doesn't cut physically or cognitively.

42 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It doesn't work for me because it is at odds with everything we know about identity, identity is just that, an identification, not a list of all possible attributes.

Insulting me won't make your statement true.

and I have given you an alternative explanation.

No you haven't given me an alternate explanation.

It is at odds with what you want to believe about identity. Oh and my explaination doesn't contradict your because.  I'm not insulting you I am trying to get you to think beyond your narrow view. The explanations I gave you are really quite basic and simple, but I can't make you understand. Tell me why it does what it does or accept my explanation.

1 minute ago, therunner said:

Yes it allows them to bypass this restriction and allows them to tap other aluminum minds, but tapping someones Identity does not change your underlying nature. I would imagine tapping others Identity would be akin to Forging oneself, but less effective as it would only make you think you are someone else, it would not actually rewrite the spiritweb as Forging does. If it did, than tapping someone else aluminum mind is essentially committing suicide, as your Identity would be overwritten by the one you tapped.

If tapping Identity allowed you to gain their investiture and knowledge, copperminds and nicrosil would be a bit redundant, as those do allow to transfer knowledge and invested abilities. While bond is connection, a person is connected to many things, but they do not become part of your Identity, so not storable, Feruchemists can only store their own attributes. Residual Identity is not a thing, Identity is most likely attribute of persons spiritweb, plus the bond between deadplate and Radiant is broken that is what semi-killed the spren.

Aluminum allomancy allows to potentially burn away damage to cognitive (maybe even spiritual) self, not heal damage caused by investiture. If someone stabbed you with a shardblade that had its invested cutting somehow negated, you would still be a person with stab wound, no amount of aluminum would fix that, it aint gold.

Nope, in the book they just need them to be turned on, or specifically to have their polarity reversed as they were originally intended as diminishers not augmenters. Painrial involve no storing whatsoever, and even if they did aluminum twin can store only into and from aluminum, not gems or non-aluminum metals used in fabrials.

Why would there be a link between Feruchemical and Allomantic abilities of aluminum? What link is there between pulling metal and speed (steel), hiding Rhythms and memory (copper) or wiping investiture of target and Fortune (chromium), or is in these cases "it just does" a good explanation? Also in allomancy it wipes metals even when they are not being burned, i.e. even when they are completely uninvested hunks of metal, so why would it do that in your framework? There would be no investiture to be wiped.

We also know that aluminum receptacle is a way of retrieving invested liquid from Perpendicularity and it does not negate this investiture, hence it does not work as anti-investiture. Since sprenblades are made from pure investiture (just as spren, since they are spren) and contact with aluminum does precisely nothing to the spren itself, outside of negating the invested cutting (but only for the aluminum) I really do not see any support for this conjecture of yours and in fact I see several to the contrary of it. Not to mention that once again, feruchemy works by storing Feruchemists attributes, not attributes of other items. There is exactly zero evidence that it does anything else.

True it is odd that outside of metallic arts the aluminum is inert to investiture, but the key is that it is inert it does not interact with investiture at all. In fact we have WoB on this, (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6364), all aluminum does is block investiture from passing through or it does not react at all, it definitely does not "wipe spren identities".

Oh and by the way, the gems used in fabrials are the same as those used in spheres, so they do not resist investiture and in fact take it in quite nicely, you just need to leave them lyeing around in highstorm. And only some of them contain aluminum (6 out of 10), but since in metallic arts the metal must be quite clean and alloys very precise, I do not think chemical compounds would have the same properties (not even simple alloys of aluminum have the same properties, so chemical compounds would be even larger stretch, but who knows what Era 3 holds).

That shardplate has connection to identity is your assumption. Of course he could not have taken on that Identity in the first place, because that person is dead. Also, again, reswearing ideals is not sufficient to bring back the deadspren, it might be if you were the same person, but alas your agent is not the same person as the original Knight. Even if Identity is key to connection, holding a key does not mean you move the door around or pull stuff from other rooms (that would be connection manipulations).

Well, him using stormlight is bit of an afterthought after all the magic mechanism breaking things the Agent already did.

How? If I stab someone I do not "impart some of my identity on them" I impart the blade on them. And Spren and Radiant are not the same entity and so would have separate Identities, there is no "combined identity". Maybe if it was fifth oath Radiant, then maybe they could be close enough to be one entity, but I doubt that.  What would precisely happen when you are burning aluminum and there is a shardblade in you is an interesting idea, and I could see it causing discomfort to the spren, possibly  similar to the leeching.

Ehm no, it is a magic system facilitated from the interaction of two shard (or now one intermingled shard). Nahel bond requires two willing participants, so you would first need Harmonys says so, second it would  again be connection manipulation, not Identity. And Feruchemists connection to Shards is passive one, they get no power directly from Shards only some parts of SpiritDNA/spiritweb encoded with abilities.

Well why the hell would they do that? Accepting bond to someone who in some cases killed their chosen Knights, narratively that makes no sense. And why is the Scadrian not affected by the additional identities he imposed on himself in your narrative? I can write a one paragraph story on how Sibling, Ba-Ado-Mishram and Cultivation all decide to bond Dalinar making him super-bondsmith for all three shards, but it does not exactly make that relevant for this thread does it? You writing a narrative (your own words) does not mean we have to accept it as realistic.

Well I wrote down a list of 9 items that break the established mechanics, but to choose two: 1) Feruchemists store their own attributes, not those of others. 2) Identity manipulation is not the same things as connection manipulation, there is a reason those are two separeta attributes.

Without these two assumptions your entire scenario falls apart. And I am not convinced in the near invincibility of Radiants, just that Scadrials invested arts are simply not strong enough (outside of few exception) to deal any large damage to Radiant with plate. The tools they have even the field somewhat, but I do not think they are enough to close the gap.

So here again you assume that the Radiant is not aware the Scadrians (i.e invested non-glowy people) could be threat, why? Why is the Scadrian well informed about their oponent, but not the Rosharan? I do not think he could either revive the blade, much less relieve memories (Identity =/= Memories) of some one dead for 2 millenia. I would really like to meet the people who can shoot (consistently) moving target the size of 3 cm at best from 7 meters, whilst lying on the ground pretending to be incapacited and shooting under angle. In our world people who pull shots like that are on the Olympic teams in the 10 meter shooting competition and they have much favorable conditions to do that.

Why would he need Raysium dagger? Unless he has some kind of connection to local shards he will not be able to pull their investiture into himself anyway. And tones and anti-tones sound the same, it is the intent that differentiates them, but maybe the Seeker could do that. But that would still not allow him to make his from the usual light, since neither allomancy nor feruchemy allows direct manipulation of investiture, only storing/tapping.

Aluminum potentially allows for a mixture of Identity perhaps even more effective and permanent than forging. Look I am still working out the quirks in my own mind and I get that you and others find the idea outrageous, but much in the cosmere is a big open void open to speculation even radical speculation like mine.

Identity doesn't store information exactly but it can potentially store knowledge like muscle memory or mastered understanding or experience so not exactly what copperminds do. Nicrosil seems to store investiture inherent in or connected to ones identity, but aluminum has the potential to expand ones identity which in turn could expand ones connections in the process.

Shardblades are investiture incarnate so their wounds can have the potential to be cleansed by aluminum. Shardblades are the penultimate weapon on Roshar so it is all but inconceivable that an ordinary looking person could come away unaffected by it to almost all of them.

He intentionally didn't use stormlight because of its potential interaction with his aluminum. You should know that at least from the first dead shardplate he had infused gems.

Identity facilitates connection. As a Radiant attains a higher ideal there is a greater connection between the Radiant's and Spren's identities. they literally become part of one another sharing parts of their identity with each other. Or at least that is how I read it.

There appears to be a link between a persons identity and their connection to allomancy. Identity is a foundational cross realm quality inseparably linked to connection. You really can't have one without the other. That is one of the reasons that aluminum fascinated me so much.

I actually addressed all 9 since many were related.

Painrials only have as much pain as has been stored into them when the polarity is reversed as I remember. At least that is how Navani used it in the battle during OB.

Why do spren bond to anybody? All humans from their perspective have betrayed them and bonding to someone who shares part of the identity of their former Radiant would certainly be simpler for them.

The attitude of non glowing people or people not in plate as being no threat to shardbearers, Radiants, or Fused has be expressed over and over. Shallon herself expressed that she was virtually un-killable. The scadrian is familar with their weapons but they are not familiar with his. Once he revived the blade he knew perhaps more than they did about radiants because of how he accomplished it. None of them survived long enough to recognize the threat. Before that first encounter he really didn't need to know about them he only needed to know that he should try and make a lethal shot such as to the head. Seeing armor that he is unfamiliar with is a big red flag to try and get around it. Seeing a big sword is another red flag to not let this person get close enough to use it before you shoot them. Its the sword to a gunfight idea.

The stated difference between light and its anti is intention. Navani before she was bonded could use a Raysium dagger to drain light so why not a Soulbearer then invert the light through intention as he stores it?

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

because it makes no sense.

let's take an example,

If I shoot an oxygen atom at the ground, it will burn a long hole to the center of the Earth.

It's not very imaginative, but it makes no sense.

And severing it from investiture spiritually? That's like severing it from energy, it's not possible.

What I mean to say by being not very imaginative is that the idea is very basic, but I am not going to do your thinking for you. This is one of those times when you reject logical evidence because you want to at best. I'll let you think on it. By all means come up with an alternate explanation as to why shardblades sever until then I wont contiure to spoon feed you what you seem to want to intentionally be confused about.

I suspect that it doesn't make sense to you because you choose to stop at because. That is the problem with because.