BenduLuke

Just now, Frustration said:

Basic logic

No example of Svantism is anywhere near strong enough to do that.

Savantism is about negetive side effects of using the power too much, not just an excuse to give characters new abilities.

And the people who have shown the ability to push on trace metals don't show any signs of Savantism.

No though savantism can damage a person it is also about enhancing their ability. Both the damage and enhancement are related in most cases. Trace metals in the body because of the rules of investiture are almost impossible to push on, but outside the body if it can be sensed it can be pushed unless it is invested some how. While I waited for your response I looked it up. There is no stated restriction on trace metals outside the body and developing the ability to sense them is possible to any steel or iron misting. We also don't yet know what the downside to Iron or Steel Savantism is. A compounder would likely be a double savant eventually.

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Savantism isn't enough, it might get you closer but it's not going to get you there.

Who says?

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Simple Savanthood isn't enough to find tracemetals, the only people who have even come close to displaying that power are Fullborn, and held at least a portion of Preservation, or used the power of someone who has.

Sorry Iron or Steel Savants particularly compounders could potentially reach the point that they could affect trace metals because they would have a stronger spiritual connection in that ability

A savant is someone who has used an Investiture-related ability so much that it has changed their physiology; at least Allomancy, Feruchemy,[1] and Surgebinding can lead to savants. The process involves one's spirit becoming infused with Investiture, causing changes in the Physical Realm.[2] Savantism brings a person closer to the Spiritual Realm.

11 hours ago, therunner said:

While steel does conduct electricity, that does not translate to shielding well against beta radiation. For comparison, speed of electrons due to electric current is ~10^-6 m/s, whereas electrons in beta radiation are generally relativistic with speed of order ~10^6-10^7 m/s, so even if the steel was under voltage, the resulting change in speed would be negligible. Also steel shields well against gamma radiation, not beta (although of course sufficiently thick layer would be still provide protection, however that might make it impractically heavy).

So if I understand you correctly, the I-compounder would have beryllium mirror/target on their chest and they would pull the hydrogen/deuterium/tritium against that to create sufficient pressure to ignite fusion? So the process would be tap weight (to increase strenght of pulls, and root yourself), pull fuel to the chest, and hope that the fusion explosion ignited at best centimeters from you will not kill you? There are other issues with this, for example with using deuterium or tritium as a fuel is that one product of the fusion are high energy neutrons, which are very difficult to shield against. Also while the beryllium is heat resistant, I strongly doubt it could withstand being the source of pressure for the fusion without also fusing, or if the fusion started short distance from it, even without melting (i know they are using beryllium in ITER, but there you have at least few kgs of beryllium meant to withstand 10-100 miligrams of plasma, not the full brunt of it), eg. specific heat of berrylium is 1925 J/(Kg*K), so to heat 1 kg by 1 K you need to provide ~2kJ, however hydrogen gas has specific heat 14kJ/(kg*K), so the berryllium would heat up faster than the hydrogen would cool down -> it would most likely melt then evaporate and join in the fusion, so the mirror would be immediately completely destroyed. Even with concave chamber, it would need to happen incredibly fast, so that the gas does not escape on the edges, but this might be resolved by doing multiple pulls at once. While Be can be used as neutron reflector, the mechanism is different from mirrors, what it does is that the incoming neutrons are scattered on Be atoms, and so now can go in any direction. Practical result is that incident neutron has ~50-50 chance of being reflected, but the rest still passes through, albeit now slower.

While the coppermind says that density is stored, it cites Alloy of Law Ars Arcanum for that, however at least in my copy of Alloy of Law there is no mention of density, only of storing weight to effectively decrease/increase weight, so to me it seems that there is a mistake in coppermind. You should also note that the very same coppermind you shared actually says that despite in increase in density, this has no effect on penetration, quoting the WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/40-the-alloy-of-law-annotations/#e692) I quoted as well. Sanderson specifically says the following:

"At the same time, I acknowledge that the weight manipulation aspect of Feruchemy is one of its more baffling powers, scientifically. Is he changing his mass? If so, he should become more dense, which I don't actually make the case when it plays out in fights. (Otherwise, increasing his weight enough would make him impervious to bullets.) So, if it's not mass manipulation, is it gravity manipulation, like Szeth and Kaladin do? Well, again, not really—as when his weight increases, his strength and ability to uphold that weight increase as well. Beyond that, Wax can't make himself so light that he has no weight at all. "

In between the WoB above, and the fact that Ars Arcanum cited in the article actually does not mention density, it seems to me your assumption about increased density imparting increased resistance is not correct, and without this assumption the I-compounder has no way of surviving the explosion. I do admit that just basic definition of density =mass/volume should effectively make it that storing weight -> storing density, but in this magic system it does not seem to play out that way.

 

To address the reverse lashings cannon, it is true that reverse lashing are more effective on items not touching ground, however this limitation is easily overcome by putting the cannon on Navani's floating platforms. When it comes to strength of r-lashing, force required to tear a human head off is estimated to be around 5000 N, human head weighs 5 kg, and since Parshendi have carapace, we can take these as a good lower bound on estimation. So to tear a human head off you would need around 100 r-lashings (assuming 10m/s^2), and thanks to Pursuer we know Windrunner can do this (in fact probably more than this, accounting for carapace of Parshendi). So with a 10m long cannon you would need just 2 windrunners to shoot almost anything at speed 200 m/s (assuming enough stormlight, I also assume that having r-lashing act on heavier object would cause it to deplete faster). This cannon would be especially fun in space, as having a long cannon run the length of a ship, ~100m would make for a devastating weapon (although at that point they would most likely have better ways of achieving this goal).

Also with r-lashing requiring to maintain contact, the way it is written in RoW ("Kaladin turned and strode towards Heavenly Ones, as the Pursuer's head ripped from his body and slammed to the floor.") seems to me that it lingers for a bit even after breaking contact, although it is not exactly clear in this passage.

All good points. The coppermind definition was changed today, but from my perspective the change causes violations in laws of conservation of momentum. The 2 people we know of who used Iron-F were limited to what weight they had to store and when they tapped the weight they lost some to conversion due to rapid tapping. For them the change in density and for most ferrings would not be appreciable or have an appreciable affect on durability beyond enabling them to move around normally. When dealing with any compounding the scale of investiture involved would produce appreciable results not seen in normal Ferrings and given that comounders are very rare the result may not have been observed yet. The coppermind does not address the affects of Iron compounding like articles for some metals do.

yes some of the Be could be fused, but this idea was meant to be on the fringe of possibility, not necessarily workable now in our universe or the Cosmere and maybe it goes to far beyond the probable.

A Dustbinger or Skybreaker of sufficient skill and power with the right materials could potentially use Division to ignite an atomic explosion, but could either survive that use of Division? If so how?

A Nicrosil ferring paired with most metals has the potential for incredible power. Paired with steel they could feruchemically tap steel pushes. With Bend alloy they could tap time jumps increasing the speed of the jump, radius of the jump, the length of the jump, and perhaps even anchor the bubble on themselves to carry with them. They could tap any one allomantic power feruchemically. Strength, senses, time, emotions. Only aluminum and duralumin would likely seem to have no tappable effect. Pewter would offer multiple physical abilities that could be used feruchemically. A nicrosil pairing could be one of the most powerful twinborns around.

The cannon would still work better on the ground, but its best use would be to target things that are not on the ground. Kaladin still had his feet on the ground, but Pursuer was more vulnerable because he was suspended above the ground by adhesion. (both the adhesion and the R-Lashing were very powerful) Of course if the investiture of R-Lashings does last a while after contact then R-Lashing guided missiles would open up some very dangerous weapons.

11 hours ago, therunner said:

There are two kinds of strength talked about, allomantic strength and strength of pushes/pulls.

Allomantic strength comes from how close a connection to preservation they have (in the sense of modification of spiritweb, not in sense of ideals) and affect how much you can perceive and how much control you have (i.e. how small/detailed things you can effect). In this sense compounders are weaker the Lerasium mistborn, and no amount of compounding will change that, their base strength is what they were born with (barring adding hemalurgic spikes). Also note that even though Marsh could see trace metals, he could not affect them, even though he was/is one of the strongest Metalborn due to his spikes. Quote " Almost everything had metal in it - water, stone, glass... even human bodies.These metals were too diffuse to be affected by Allomancy - indeed, most Allomancers couldn't even sense them.""

Strength of individual pushes/pulls is affected by both allomantic strength and by weight of the user, here I-compounder could use compounding to overcome their comparative allomantic weakness to generate stronger pulls.

So while compounders can generate stronger pushes/pulls, they cannot affect trace metals, so stone/glass/water/bodies is a no go for them.

That is why I asked if there were metals in the Crem. In addition compounders build up an increased connection to the spirit web in their specialty so over time they would develop increased ability or strength over time. Wax because of the connection the BoM gave him could affect trace metals so the potential is there and might be built to as one became a savant.

11 hours ago, therunner said:

Hello,

when going through the article on Iron (https://coppermind.net/wiki/Iron) I noticed that in the section on Feruchemical use it says the following:

"An iron Ferring is known as a Skimmer. Iron is used to store physical mass, or more accurately, density."

and quotes the Alloy of Law Ars Arcanum (citation [2]) for it, however when going through my copy of Alloy of Law, no mention of density was made. Are there multiple version of Alloy of Law with different Ars Arcanum?

Also, in combination with this WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/40-the-alloy-of-law-annotations/#e692 which is also quoted in the Feruchemical Use section, which says :

" I acknowledge that the weight manipulation aspect of Feruchemy is one of its more baffling powers, scientifically. Is he changing his mass? If so, he should become more dense, which I don't actually make the case when it plays out in fights. (Otherwise, increasing his weight enough would make him impervious to bullets."

I think the case is that F-Iron while F-Iron stores weight, somehow that does not translate to any effective change in density (which admittedly does not make much sense considering the definition of density), so I think the mention of storing density should be removed.

2 hours ago, Starwatcher said:

Yeah, I do agree that the "or more accurately, density" line that's currently in the article isn't, in fact, accurate; I'll try to at least clear that up some.

...and, done: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Iron?&diff=146410&oldid=137252

I have been looking at this article for some time and it seemed to me that neither Sazed or Wax was able to store enough mass to make an appreciable difference in density because they could only store weight 1 to 1 and tapped it with some regularity thus removing it. However if either had been an Iron compounder that that would have been a different story. Their density would have increased sufficiently through allomantic multiplication to make a difference in penetration and durability. So the correction @Starwatcher made actually muddies the issue. The issue isn't whether tapping weight would make a person more resistant to damage, but whether a regular Iron ferring could store enough weight to make a difference. The other problem with tapping attributes is you only get back all of your storage if you tap it at the rate you stored it, but both Wax and Sazed tapped it much faster than they stored it converting some and perhaps more than some of the mass into the force to more rapidly recover the weight. Instead of changing what the article said it may have been better to include a potential compounding section as a special circumstance.

The corrections @Starwatcher made violate conservation of momentum laws. Some degree of damage resistance would need to happen to Steel compounders to compensate for tapping large amounts of speed from their metalminds stored though compounding. Again a Ferring wouldn't necessarily have that issue due to the limited amount of speed they could store. The problem with Iron/Steel compounding is one of scale not a problem with the definition with regard to regular ferrings.

12 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

@BenduLukeDid you read the excerpt from Sixth of the Dusk 2? Both Scadrial and Roshar are going to develop FTL and will likely be in conflict.  What we're talking about isn't what happens 100 or more years down the current Cosmere time-line.  We're talking about a hypothetical conflict between Era 2 Scadrial and post-RoW Roshar. Neither of them have FTL or lasers or Star Wars tech. Revolvers and slow loading Rifles vs. Shardblades and Soulcasters. If that war started today, or at least in the next decade.  Neither side is pulling FTL or the H-bomb in that time. That Ettmetal bomb from SoScad ain't there yet. Antilight applications are not there yet.

Fair enough. I don't recall that excerpt. Era 2 scadrial can have steel compounders capable of moving at super sonic speeds who are capable of propelling devastating metallic incendiary rounds which could both neutralize Radiant healing and cause them to explode. That could be accomplished with a layered Potassium Magnesium Aluminum bullet unjacketed in most cases and jacketed in the case of use against armor.

37 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Then how is a Lerasium Mistborn stronger?

And adding it to copperminds does what exactly? how does that help?

Being able to is not the same as will do it. They could have bonded Regals at any time, but thay didn't, they have chosen sides before they will choose sides again.

Medailions let anyone use metalic arts.

Lerasium Misborn are generally stronger but compounders are specifically stronger in their area.

If you can't see how a information storage device helps I can't enlighten you.

Right and they can choose Scadrians at any time too.

Yes and fabrials allow anyone to use Rosharan magic so what is your point. Both Fabrials and Medalions are limited

47 minutes ago, theTruthshaper said:

I am not sure what you are saying, but you can just use the v^2 = 2as to calculate. With v = 200m/s and s = 1m, you get a req. a = 20000m/s^2 which is 2000 lashings.

one lash would propel a person about 30ft/s squared so would push them about a mile away in about 65 seconds. A rock propelled by 10 lashings would be traveling as fast as some bullets in less than a second. Unlike firearms in which bullets start slowing as soon as they exit the barrel the rock doesn't slow its acceleration until it runs out of stormlight so even a pebble could carry a person 1 mile into the sky in 65 seconds if it didn't just punch right through to begin with and with only 1 lashing. 10 to 40 lashings are entirely doable to create effective projectiles, and only aluminum alloys couldn't be used on their own (aluminum alloys are not affected by invested abilities). 1 lashing = 1G acceleration. 10 G's is the limit highly trained pilots can withstand for a very short length of time (seconds).

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

If this discussion is just magic we finished long ago you yourself have said that Rosharan magic is stronger

No it doesn't, having an increased Mass doesn't let you push on trace metals, Lerasium Mistborn are not heavier than regualr Mistborn.

FTL is due to Allomancy, not technology, but that's besides the point, we have seen the most advanced info Scandrial has, they don't have some coppermind sitting around with the secrets of Quantum mechanics

So, they picked a side, I fail to see how this proves your point.

No I said often one on one Rosharan magic is capable of more force, but Scadrian magic has more capability. In the end they seem to be equally strong to me.

Of course a Lurcher or Coinshot with enough mass could affect trace metals.

FTL is due to scientific application of Allomancy. What we have seen is that Scadrial is on the verge of major scientific breakthroughs at this point which will be added to copperminds since that is their method of permanently storing knowledge.

Yeah Timber picked Regals who matched their ideals even though they were the enemy of the other Radiants at the time. Assuming a Spren wont pick a person from Scadrial just because they are on the other side of conflict with Rosharan's is an invalid assumption based on the rules governing Spren. For example a Highspren might decide that a Scadrian has a more just cause than the Rosharan's and thus bond the Scadrian.

in a contest between Rosharan magic and Scadrian magic, Rosharan is open to everyone even Scadrians and Scadrian magic is not open to anyone else so Rosharan's could end up facing practitioners of their own magic and Scadrian magic.

14 minutes ago, theTruthshaper said:

Yeah, but I did. If you need to speed up something in a short distance you need a lot of acceleration

to achieve ballistic speeds you probably only need 30 or 40 lashings. 1 lashing about 10m/s^2 If you have a short distance maybe your projectile only pushes your target away. like way up in the sky.

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They won't have anything more advanced than what we have already seen.

the Strength of the pull does not equate to power.

Venli is the First(second if we count Eshoni) in seven thoushand years, it even tells us this, if it was just ideals it would have happened before, they can and do take sides.

And on top of this it is Roshar vs Scandrial so we are working off the base assumption that both worlds are united.

Yes it is Rosharan vs Scadrian magic. One of the differences in the magic systems is that Rosharan magic is granted by bonding another sentient entity through oaths to ideals, where as Scadrian magic is inborn and not naturally available to other races. So Scadrians could bond spren, but Rosharans are not born with mistborn or feruchemical abilities so cannot inherit them, and acquiring them by hemalurgy would likely break their oaths and thus lose their radiant abilities.

Of course strength of pull equates to power. The greater their mass the greater their power and the more metal they can perceive, pull on, and the stronger they can pull on all the available metal.

Brandon has said that Scadrial will have FTL Tech so they will have more advanced things than we have already seen. With the advent of southern tech it wont be long until copperminds will be open to everyone, and they already do operate similar to computers. for that matter all Feruchemy operates like computers giving pointers into the spirit realm where the power or information is.

Whats your point. Both Eshoni and Venli were the enemy and they bonded a Spren. The reason Spren started bonding anyone is because Odium was returning and they opposed him even though they didn't trust the humans much and trusted singers less. Or did you miss that part?

1 minute ago, theTruthshaper said:

Hmm, it might have a low power, but I don't think a Windrunner could use 2000 of them easily.

 

Nor would they need to use 2,000 reverse lashings. Kal didn't come anywhere near that to rip off Pursuers head. I didn't actually mention 2,000. Reverse lashings use less stormlight compared to effect than any other WR ability, To be sure I am clear RL's have a stronger effect with less stormlight, but are limited by whether the pulled object is on the ground and function only while the WR is touching the surface pulling.

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Just common sense that somewhere in the world there is a coppermind with a bunch of scientific information?

Yeah, the like 3 that exist.

So you're saying that there was never a large group of brave and loyal soldiers that never became Dustbringers, like of I don't know

The Singers?

We have seen them take sides it is ridiculas to say they don't

Of course Scadrians store information in copperminds like we do in computers.

An Iron compounder would be strong enough just by virtue of mass.

Venli was the enemy and is a radiant having bonded a Spren. I could see Dockson becoming a Dustbringer, and Ham becoming a Willshaper, and Breeze becoming a Lightweaver, given their character and ideals. Spren have no ideal saying a person must be from Roshar to bond with them even if Rosharan's are fighting someone from elsewhere. Venli is proof that Spren will even bond Regals if they hold to the Spren's ideals.

12 hours ago, therunner said:

I see how steel armor can be used as a metal mind, I do not see how that is supposed to help with beta radiation as you state:

As I stated in my previous post, to shield against beta radiation you would prefer lighter metals, to prevent appearance of braking radiation, which would be more dangerous, so steel would not work too well.

Thanks for this, I was misremembering how mass of user affects pulls/pushes. The way I see it now the I-compounder could achieve sufficient strength to provide enough energy to theoretically create and ignite plasma (#CompoundingIsBrokenAF), but the problem is still how to concentrate that energy in one spot. The only place they can pull towards is themselves, and to prevent the hydrogen from escaping due to collisions they would need to pull from all sides the same way, putting them straight in the center of now ignited nuclear fusion explosion, which would kill them on the spot. Also Wax states that tapping weight does not increase his density, as bullets still easily pass through him (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/40-the-alloy-of-law-annotations/#e692), so tapping weight does not increase their resistance to damage, therefore that would not help them survive the fusion explosion centered on their location.

Altogether, now i agree that I-compounders have enough energy output to ignite fusion, but mechanically they have no way to put that energy in one spot without killing themselves, due to limitations of pushes/pulls to a straight line from user to metal.

To address the part with mirrors, in Deuterium and Tritium reactions most energy (between 66%-80%) is released in form of neutrons not photons, so most energy would be wasted. Also, even in more suitable reactions (like the Hydrogen-Hydrogen or Hydrogen-Helium) the photons released are gamma rays, and those cannot be reflected of mirrors due to their short wavelength.

These rounds are just evil, and tactically brilliant. Just one potential issue, do we know if even chemical compounds containing aluminum inhibits invested healing? I would think that yes they still do, but if not then having aluminum ignite would not provide the desired effect.

True, I got a bit of a tunnel vision on the reverse lashing. But post facto rationalization, reverse lashings use the least amount of light, making them more efficient (and potentially allowing this artillery to fire more rounds before requiring restocking with spheres).

EDIT: Also, the reverse lashing seems to be stronger than basic lashing (the whole ripping Pursuers head off incident), so for less light you get more acceleration, again increasing effectivness.

Steel does conduct electricity (beta radiation) though not as efficiently as some metals, with the added benefit of working as a metal mind. With properly advanced tech a person could take advantage of that. Steel is also one of the best shields against radiation.

Using deuterium and tritium would be more likely to lead to fusion and yield lithium another metal. The beryllium mirror perhaps on the chest is the key to the crushing force. A lurcher can only pull and must be pulling against something to ignite the fusion. Pulling the H^2 or H^3 against the beryllium provides the pressure from the other side and it being a mirror it will reflect and focus the light generated by the fusion. Beryllium is also very resistant to heat and may at least in part be replenished by the fusion since the fusion of H & Li or perhaps H^2/3 might produce Be which has just been pressed into the Be mirror. The mirror would need to be concave. A Be mirror would likely reflect neutrons as well though many would be consumed in producing more Be.

The coppermind I shared with you says that in reality it is density that is increased, but Wax never stored enough weight for his density to change appreciably much with regard to piercing threats. His metal minds also probably didn't have the capacity to store enough to make a noticeable difference in his density. Remember he could only get out what he could put in 1 to 1, but an Iron compounder who puts in 1 kg can burn that and produce 10 kg to store maybe more if they flare. 10 burns and stores 100 to 1,000 to 10,000 until the armor capacity is reached. Still even with his limited Iron ability his pushes were above average.

Reverse lashing have the weakness that the Radiant must remain in contact with the item pulling. Kal used a reverse lashing on Pursuers head by touching the ground to draw its head off its shoulders. Though we might find later that because of conservation of momentum a reverse lashing placed on a pebble could act like a guided missile while the stormlight lasted.

4 hours ago, theTruthshaper said:

Reverse lashings are not stronger than basic lashings, as far as I know, and Kaladin used multiple of them to rip Pursuers head off. The additional problem with this is that it gives the ammunition only a small distance to accelerate. Eg. if your railgun is a meter long, you'll need 2000 lashings to get the thing up to 200m/s (assuming each lashing is 10m/s^2)

Reverse lashings are most effective on things that are not grounded like arrows in flight and appear to only work so long as the surface the item is drawn to is in contact with the windrunner (unique to them), but it does use stormlight more efficiently and has the lowest power output over time. At least that is what the coppermind says.

21 hours ago, Frustration said:

And evidence to support this claim?

It might contain metal, but it is still stone, can't pull on that.

1. Scandrial doesn't have spren
2. They will be in conflict wth each other.

It is just common sense.

If the allomancer is strong enough, they can pull on metal in stone. They have been shown to be able to pull on metal in a person's blood. Argument 2 makes no sense based on what I have seen in the books. Spren pick people who share their values. Highspren pick people who are Just and confident, Honorspren: Protective and leaders, Peakspren: Dependable and Resourceful, Reachers: Resolute and Builders, Inkspren: Wise and Careful, Cryptic: Creative and Honest, Mistspren: Learned and Giving, Cultivationspren: Loving and healing, Ashspren: Brave and Obedient. Don't tell me there aren't Scadrian's who exemplify each and everyone of those qualities since we both know there are characters in the mistborn books that do. Only bondsmiths would be difficult because there can be only 3 and we already have 2, but if a Scadrian were Pious and Guiding they might still bond Nightwatcher at this time.

7 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

1. Scadrian metallurgy is going to be off if they try to reproduce on Roshar, atmospheric pressure,  gravity and oxygen composition are all elements in producing machine grade metals. The percentages that are so important to making viable metals for the Metallic Arts are going to be way off until they adjust.  They will have to have large stores in hand while they adjust, all while establishing a beachhead, firming up their supply chain and fighting off an army well familiar with the local conditions. 

2. Understanding vector physics intuitively does not necessarily convey vast scientific knowledge. At most it just provides a head start. Scadrial ain't picking up E=MC^2 tomorrow just because they can throw coins around by magic. I think that to say so is vastly overestimating the speed of Scadrial's technological progress. 

3.That copper library is about 1000 years out of date and has very little in the way of scientific experimentational notations thanks to TLR. The Keepers stored much in the way of cultural cache but little science.  Again,  they are not pulling off E=MC^2 tomorrow.

It's not that hard to adjust for differences in atmospheric content and gravity. Besides by the time Scadrial crosses the stars to reach Roshar they will have FTL level tech.

What makes you think they haven't been updating their copper libraries? Scadrial also has the advantage that either gender can read. Just because the stories haven't highlighted scholars on Scadrial doesn't mean there aren't any just as or even more brilliant than Navani and with the advantage of 100's of years more advanced technology to start with.

Brandon has already said Scadrial will have FTL tech so E=mc^2 is on their horizion and based on current tech levels much sooner than on Roshar. Yes having an intuitive understanding of vector physics does help fast track science. Scadrial went from medievil tech to early 20th century tech in 100 to 200 years. That is about 1000 years faster than we did it. Roshar on the other hand is barely at medievil levels and have been for around 3,000 years with some exceptions where some degree of fabrial science have replaced mechanical science. That is to be expected since their magic skews their perception of the physical world. I suspect that once Scadrian's are exposed to Fabrial science they will absorb it near effortlessly and exceed it rapidly because of their much deeper, broader, and more solid understanding of the physical laws of the Cosmere along with the metalic laws.

12 hours ago, therunner said:

I mentioned fusion to fully address possibility of nuclear explosions. I also do not see how Iron compounders would have a possibility of igniting fusion, A-Iron allows them to pull metals to themselves along a straight line and F-Iron allows them to store/tap their weight, neither of which would allow them to create conditions extreme enough to ignite fusion (note that lithium fusion requires much more energy to get going than even hydrogen fusion, and that is already quite extreme). The best I can think of is suicide attack where they do one incredibly strong pull on hydrogen from all directions at once, with themselves at center, but I seriously doubt they would be strong enough to ignite fusion. (assuming 100% efficiency, to fuse 1 microgram of Hydrogen they would need to pull with force ~10^5-10^6 Newtons, for energy output ~10kg of TNT, that is strong enough to completely cancel gravity on ~10 ton object for the duration of the pull, for lithium there is at least 6 times as much force needed). So small explosions are from energy standpoint doable, but you still have the issue of how to actually put all that energy in one place, the pulls are only linear so the only intersection of multiple pulls from one user is the user himself, so they would kill themselves with this attack.

While particle beam might split some atoms (emphasis on might) it would not be able to start chain reaction needed for nuclear explosions. The control itself would be needed to just create the particle beam, but after that physics takes over and they cannot really effect if any given collision will result in emission of neutron at correct speed. Simply put, nuclear collisions are not enough to start nuclear explosions,as atomic collision generally do not result in fission (the collision is generally due to electromagnetic interaction), as energetically it is easier for the incoming particle to knock the other atom away, instead of first fusing together and then falling apart.

It is true that alpha particles are not too dangerous, as they can be mostly shielded by just sufficient layer of air, I just wanted to list it for completness.

Also what do you mean by stating that beta particles can conducted by steel? For shielding from beta radiation, lighter elements are better, so steel armor might actually be worse for the user (as the beta radiation might cause emission of x-ray/gamma radiation due to braking in the material). And as you state, it is true that at the point where now about nuclear explosions they would be able to devise protective clothing.

May I ask for link on that WoB? I am curious about his wording.

 

And in spirit of speculation, Windrunners might be able to create simple "guns/railguns" as follows: Take a long tube, put ammunition in one end, and then coat the other with a bunch of strong reverse lashings that will attract the ammunition (as reverse lashing seem to just act on object the users wants it to). When the ammunition leaves the tube, cancel the reverse lashing (this would the difficult part to time right, unless they found a way to automate it). The good thing about lashing is that they directly impart acceleration, so to accelerate heavier object you "just" need more stormlight. As an example, to accelerate arbitrary object to ~100 m/s  (assuming enough stormlight) you would need about 50m long tube and put down 10 r-lashing ( or 5 m long tube and 100 r-lashings, longer tubes are better for timing the end, and I assume strength of one lashing to be ~10m/s^2).

First I will address why steel armor. Because steel can act as a metal mind for a steel compounder. More steel = more storage. Other compounders might use other metals.

I agree that Windrunners could create railgun effects. So could coinshots, and Skybreakers and with the right mechanical system Lurchers.

A little sooner than I was going to discuss this but here is the idea behind Iron compounders having the potential to create fusion. First assuming Hydrogen is treated as a metal it would make the concept more workable. It seems to me that coinshots and lurchers get an exponential return in their pushes and pulls based on their mass. An Iron compounder with Iron armor acting as their metalmind would have a vast store of density/mass to tap.  The goal behind generating small fusion reactions would be to release EM energy that could be directed and focused by a Berylium mirror which is both extremely heat resistant and can be reflexive. You would probably want to use deuterium or tritium as the H fuel. With the increased density would come proportional strength as well to handle the increased weight in at least bones and muscles, and perhaps even the skin if the increased density is great enough. this might come in the form of a chest laser like Iron man.

Here is the link for liquid pulls.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Iron

The first rule is that the strength of your pull is roughly proportional to your physical mass. This means that larger Allomancers can generally ironpull and steelpush more powerfully than a smaller counterpart. While proportional, the force exerted by an ironpull is much greater than the Lurcher's weight,

 An especially skilled Allomancer can Pull on individual parts of a metal object.[6] Ironpulling liquid metals works similarly to a ferrofluid.

One other offensive weapon in a Steel compounder's or coinshots arsenal are incendiary rounds. Store potassium rounds in an oil solution in the armor perhaps with a soft metal jacket depending on the target. inside the potassium is a magnesium layer, and inside that is an alluminum layer. Push the projectile into the target. the oil gets stripped off on entry into soft flesh or the soft metal gets stripped off as it pierces armor. Potassium exposed to air or water ignites at high temperature and ignites the magnesium which can ignite even water, and finally the aluminum is ignited by the extreme heat of magnesium and also inhibits invested healing at the same time. All this creates an explosive reaction in anyone it penetrates with bits of aluminum in the surrounding tissues. Very nasty simple thermite like projectile. So long as the potassium is in oil or encased in soft metal it is inert.

22 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The Manhattan Project is already happening on Roshar.  They are after all already in the middle of a global spanning war of annihilation.  They already have the greatest minds available to them gathered in one place. They have already come up with a weapon with Cosmere spanning implications.  Scadrial OTOH hasn't even passed the first stage of this. And the best technological scholar they have is an antisocial recluse with absolutely no political power and no interest in such. Nor do they have the type of political system to optimize their technological advantages in peacetime.  It takes time to build up a war machine and Scadrial isn't even in the starting block. 

Also,  while science and technology generally go hand in hand, it's not exactly the same. I don't know if Scadrial's scientific understanding exceeds Roshar  by any great measure or even at all. The one thing we know for sure is Scadrial's metallurgy is far superior,  makes sense since metal is the basis for their magic system.  But TLR repressed nearly every other technological advance for over 1000 years. Roshar has had over 2000 years of scientific research experience, limited only by the low relative metal deposits and higher than average oxygen in their atmosphere. 

Another thing to think about.  If Roshar comes to Scadrial they will have some issues.  Higher gravity,  lower oxygen,  and advancing on a world with better weapons.  But they have much easier access to food there, the Elend basin is ridiculously fertile. But if Scadrial goes to Roshar their adjustment period would be harder. They wouldn't know how to deal with category 5 hurricanes every 2 weeks. Their vaunted weapons would blow up in their faces half the time because everything they use is much more flammable.  It would be harder for them to produce steel locally because the gas mix would be off. Kelsier is doing it the right way for Scadrial. 

Along with metallurgy comes chemistry. In addition some of the metal arts deal with an understanding of vector physics. There are vast stores of scientific knowlege in copperminds and scholar researchers working with that copper library.

I wasn't aware of the environmental differences between Scadrial and Roshar. Given what you said Scadrial's explosives and projectiles would be that much more effective. Those same cat 5 hurricanes might provide the key to convert investiture for Scadrian's, but they could be a bit of a shock in the beginning except that Scadrian's will likely arrive at Roshar from space and may be in a position to observe them before landing.

19 hours ago, The Technovore said:

I appreciate the appreciation, I think a twinborn combination that could make the equivalent of a Seer would be A-Electrum/F-Zinc, the tapped zinc replicating the mind-enhancing effects of Atium. 

I am in full support of "TerrisPlate", I think it would be awesome, but the main point being that Allomancy only burns so fast means that a Iron-Compounder in full iron plate would be able to be really heavy for a really long time. Cool, but not galaxy-breaking cool.

 

Also, concerning the whole "Bondsmiths and Metalborn", I've done some discussing with other knowledgeable Sharders, and have determined it to be "Unlikely to Impossible", because a Spiritweb is made up of Connection+Investiture, Connection being more "strands of time" and your destiny than your abilities. We'll have to see whether a Bondsmith has full Spiritweb manipulation, but from what we know at RoW, there's no reason to believe it will happen

 

The thing with this is that while Hemalurgy is detestable, I wouldn't see the Skybreakers disagreeing with it if it was an enemy combatant and the practice could be done in the form of a quick execution. I can similarly see most of the other Orders having similar rationalizations, remember, with Honor dead there's no governing oversight on Oaths and Surges. It's literally a plot point that the Radiants have the power to potentially crack their planet open right now. The only group I can really see objecting would be Bondsmiths and Windrunners, but due to the autonomy of the individual orders, in this hypothetical I would not rule out at least some Radiant+Metalborn Rosharans.

 

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. Someone brought up Scadrial representing the chaotic alignment and Roshar representing the lawful. Lawful alignment tends to facilitate greater technological speed. It's also literally a plot point that Scadrian technological development has slowed due to NoScad being coddled. @Bigmikey357 is right that Roshar already has an equivalent of the Manhattan project that has already discovered splitting the atom at Urithiru. Urithiru's not going to disappear in the 20 years leading up to their position in this hypothetical. I wouldn't rule out Scadrial doing something similar once the war has begun, but I would call it a plot hole if SA 8 had Scad and Roshar in the throes of civil war and Roshar wasn't doing anything to catch up. That's my argument, again, agree to disagree.

 

You're right we don't see Stormlight resisting emotional allomancy, because this is all a hypothetical, but we know that kandra are resistant to emotional allomancy, as are Koloss, as are mistborn (most especially copper-burning) because of their invested nature. It's a principle of the cosmere that Invested object resist being manipulated by Investiture, therefore it is not a fallacy to assume that a Radiant would be resistant to Zinc and Brass. Psychological warfare, like @Frustration, absolutely viable. Brass and Zinc not so much.

I'm actually with @BenduLuke on the Radiant Scadrian thing. Windrunners, Bondsmiths, Skybreakers, and a few other orders would definitely see spren taking sides, but spren are capable of rebelliousness and some types value different things than others. Just like some Orders but not others would justify hemalurgy, some spren but not most would justify bonding with Scadrians. 

I want to bring up Fabrials again. We don't know a ton about this magic system yet, but I suspect that Fabrials will be to Roshar as Hemalurgy is to Scadrial--the thing that really opens up the system to all kinds of unique and game-changing effects. 15 years before Era 2 Scad Roshar is working out how to replicate (poorly) some of the Surges, and if they can make some of the Heralds sane combined with Navani they could do a lot of incredible things. There's a lot of combinations between gem types, metal types, and spren, which means we could have a lot of effects that could be used for non-Radiant shock troopers to annoy the Scadrians. Painrials are definitely one thing, especially useful since they're at range. I could see some fabrial that acts like a-chromium, or inflicts the effect of storing f-steel, or just straight up blocking investiture of all types. I could see fabrials-and-medallion science absolutely being the arms race of the War, which admittedly the Scadrians would have the advantage on since they can mess with medallions in a way that the Rosharans really can't.

F-zinc is a very versatile metal to combine with. A full feruchemical charge can be tapped almost instantly if needed or over an extended time. Metal pushes and pulls appear to be proportional to mass/weight/density, such that the more mass you have the stronger the pushes or pulls are. The use of those pushes or pulls also seems to be exponentially greater than the mass of the person employing them as shown by the fact that coinshots can launch themselves dozens of feet into the air and lurchers can pull themselves similarly all without duralumin. For a steel compounder velocity replaces mass for increasing pushes and Iron compounders can have insane mass to back up pulls limited by the surface presure beneath them if they are on the ground. All things fall at the same rate.

Does crem have a metallic component? If so an Iron compounder could spread out the surface area supporting their increased weight then slingshot out of the hole once they store the weight.

16 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Just wait until Roshar gets a peek at temporal metals and start incorporating them into Fabrial cages. Hell if Kriss accidentally dropped an Allomancy chart somewhere Navani could see it I think Roshar becomes absolutely terrifying in yet another way.  Admittedly that's more long term, but by the time the actual clash between these 2 becomes Canon they both will be so close tech wise that it'll be a  challenge to see who's better.  Hell it's close to a toss up right now as 35 or so pages on this thread alone can attest. 

I suspect that once Scadrial gets a look at fabrials with their knowledge of metals and metallurgy they will quickly advance in fabrial creation and use. At that point both Roshar and Scadrial will be in a run away positive scientific feed back loop where every advance in Fabrials on Roshar will catapult scadrian science ahead followed by Rosharan advances and so forth. Honestly though I actually think Scadrial and Roshar will be on the same side in the end combating a greater menace, perhaps Trell.

15 hours ago, apepi said:

Odd thought...do we know if Scadrian magic is stronger with the two shards combining? Is Allomancy and Feruchemy stronger? Or is that not how it works because those powers are somewhat a part of the individual shards?(well, with Feruchemy being both) Does that mean if there is not stronger magic, is there more quantity of it then?

For the most part Scadrian magic individually has less raw power than Rosharan magic individually, but is more widespread and endemic in the population, and is also more versatile. Feruchemy is actually one of the weaker forms of investure on its own, but when combined with allomancy can serve as a very high yield battery.

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If that where the case Brittan would have had the Manhattan project not the US, because they had the Industrial revelution first.

And what do you mean by more grounded?

Again Investiture resists investiture, manipulating emotion means you have to push through a Radiants investiture.

I've had this argument with you about five times by now, getting to Roshar, through enemy lines and bonding a spren that veiws you as the enemy is far harder than you are implying.

Again you make the mistake of comparing cultures which are at the same tech level in your example, but this is not the case with Scadrial and Roshar. Their tech levels are centuries apart not years or decades.

The innate nature of Scadrian magic is grounded in physical laws operable everywhere. Roshar's magic only works under certain conditions in certain places at least until the work out how to convert their power source. Rosharan's lose everywhere they have a conflict with Scadrian's except on Roshar.

There has been no indication that Stormlight investiture resists emotional attacks, in fact the opposite seems to be true. The most effective way to remove either Kal or Shallon has been emotionally.

Nothing says that Scadrian's need to sneak through enemy lines to bond Spren. Nothing except you opinion says Spen would view Scadrian's as enemies. Spren are attracted to people who exemplify their values so if a Scadrian exemplifies the value that Attracts a Spren they could become a Radiant regardless if there is a war between Roshar and Scadrial.

On 2/28/2021 at 2:55 AM, therunner said:

Hello, long time lurker here

I do not wish to seem rude, however it seems to me you @BenduLukeSo I would like to correct those misconceptions. are working from flawed understanding of real world physics, which in my opinion leads you to indefensible conclusions.

First, they would definitely be unable to produce lasers, as that would require manipulating light not metals, also as they require light to be in coherent state you cannot just focus preexisting light from other sources to make lasers. I also doubt even matter laser would be possible as just accelerating bunch of particle would not make coherent beam necessary for that, you cannot use steelpushes (which seem to just manipulate momentum) to make them share the same quantum state. Regular beam of metallic particles might be possible, however in my opinion it would require incredible fine control, on the level of Steel Inquisitors or beyond, to make all the individual particles have the same speed.

Also they would not be able to start nuclear explosions, that requires uncontrolled chain reaction, which is started by for example uranium capturing neutron and then decaying. Just hitting an uranium atom with another atom would at best just break it down, without releasing slow neutrons necessary to start chain reaction. In principle they could simulate the old-school atom bomb like Little Boy where you fire uranium bullet into uranium core, but those would have to be prepared and they would need to fire are correct speeds (too slow and it blows apart before fission uses it all up, too fast and you break up the target). They would most likely be able to create dirty bombs though, which would in my opinion nicely complement the fact that metalborn seem more suited for more clandestine work, and they could use the prepared Little-boy like devices to achieve that.

Fusion is also non starter in my opinion, as even if Hydrogen counts as metal, you would need to continuously push against the pressure of the reaction and replenish fusion fuel. Also you would need multiple Coinshots acting in concert, because if you would push just from one direction, the hydrogen would simply escape in the direction you are not pushing in.

Also they could not shield themselves from radiation, alpha-radiation are helium nuclei so not metals (as helium does not seem to possess metallic phase), beta-radiation are electron/positrons so again not metals and finally gamma-radiation is just light.
Steel bubble could however protect them from radiation fallout, so they would hopefully not breathe in radioactive particles.

EDIT: Also I think we can in fact assume that hydrogen does NOT count as metal, for the following reason: Human body is composed mainly of water, and based on wikipedia hydrogen forms ~10% of human body by weight or ~60% of human body by atomic count. If hydrogen counted as metal, then for Steel Inquisitors human bodies should light up like christmas tree (assuming metal sight is based on individual particles) which they seemingly do not, as the amount of hydrogen should overwhelm any other metals.

 

Thanks everyone for all the responses.

Just so you know I never considered Steel compounders capable to create Fusion, Iron on the other hand in my mind could be a possibility. I am using the term laser with steel compounders loosely. More accurately it would be a particle beam used to split atoms and you are right it would take incredible control, but the odds are that a compounder would become savant and has the potential to have that the degree of skill. Without that high degree of skill it would become a dirty bomb. Alpha particles are almost harmless. Beta particles can be conducted by steel and at the tech level to consider atomic explosions safe guards could be installed to avoid negative consequences in tandem with steel pushes. If Hydrogen is not considered a metal by Brandon that still leaves Lithium as a fuse-able material for Iron compounders.

On 2/28/2021 at 6:06 AM, GoWibble said:

We do not know how they would be able to store speed in a metalmind, and likely it would have something to do with nicrosil, a metal that they can't use*

*Without hemalurgy

Steel stores speed feruchemically. Where I go out on a limb is the idea that the spiritual connection to Steel by a Steel compounder might enable them to store steel pushes in steel turning it into super steel with Duralumin like potential over longer periods.

On 3/1/2021 at 8:02 AM, therunner said:

@Serack I am aware of metallic phase of hydrogen. As you mention I mostly wanted to mention hydrogen as it exists presently in environment (i.e. mostly as gas, in compounds or potential as liquid). To me it seems unlikely that whether an element counts as metal for purposes of Metallic arts depends on its phase, although it is possible as I am not aware of any statements that would go against it. Do we have any details on allomancers pushing/pulling on melted metals or metals in gaseous form?

Brandon has said that Iron/Steel allomancers can push on metal in gas, liquid, and solid forms.

On 3/1/2021 at 8:31 AM, Serack said:

Back to the OP's call for examples of uses of investiture.  It's not extreme, but I think the fabrial advances demonstrated in RoW can be engineered to shoot projectiles as discussed in this topic.

Give us examples of what you think those projectile fabrials might be capable of? I would love to hear more on that.

On 2/28/2021 at 10:15 AM, The Technovore said:

Okay, I'm going to put these in spoilered sections because there's a lot I want to cover.

Tactics: Chicago PD versus Sun Tzu

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> The main debate I see here is whether or not Scadrial has viable combat tactics. Benduluke argues they absolutely do, and Frustration asserts that no standing military means no effective combat strategy. Now I would argue that Scadrial does have effective combat strategy. We see allomancers, feruchemists, and twinborn on both sides of the law, which in terms of firepower, is about equivalent to Al Capone versus the Chicago PD. We see that the Luthadel police force is significant and well-armed, as are the Set and other criminal organizations. This situation does require effective combat strategy. Espionage, infiltration, collateral damage management, resource management and sabotage, research and development, and arms training. You could rely the higher-ups in Luthadel law enforcement and Elendel defense to be sound thinkers and strategists in their territory.

 Contrast this to the situation we see on Roshar. Roshar is a land war in Asia. Vast swaths of farmland and village networks that are contested for by large lumbering armies of troops. This is changing rapidly thanks to Radiants and Fused as shock troops but so far this is the prevailing war doctrine. Like Frustration pointed out, this makes the tactical thinkers the equivalent of Sun Tzu. Supply lines, resource security and denial, training the troops, leading with honor, gaining the trust of the civilians and soldiers, terrain and numbers management are the names of the game. Radiants and Fused and R&D are quickly coming to replace them, but on Roshar as it stands in RoW (because we won't be able to compare the two planets Apples to Apples until TLM and SA 6 some out), those things are augments to Sun Tzu doctorine.

Now, consider what would happen if the Prohibition-era Police Chief of Chicago went up against Sun Tzu. In this case, it would depend entirely on the terrain. Chicago PD would be hunted, trapped, and massacred in Asia, but Sun Tzu would be outmatched and outgunned in Chicago. Now consider if the Police Chief of Chicago had to lead a land war in Asia, and Tzu had to fight Al Capone. 

I see the skills of the Chief translating well over to large-scale war. He'd be elated to finally have the shackles of state law taken off and being able to go all-out against an enemy. They'd be competent in analyzing enemy movements, in working out the enemy terrain, enemy technology, countering their tactics, etc. They'd adapt quickly to most of the facets of war. They would, however, have a difficult time dealing with the extraordinary increase in logistical needs, resource management, and most of all, troop-training. Infantry ranks are different from police ranks, different requirements, different standards, different needs. They would simply not have the expertise they'd need to train men to suffer in hostile terrain, or to stay in formation during combat, nor would they be able to provide sufficiently for the army's needs and would suffer for it. 

I see some of the skills of Sun Tzu also translating well to Chicago, after a rough adjustment period. The principles of leadership, troop training, and organization would translate quickly, but the complexities of urban gang warfare would be an incredibly steep learning curve, and would make for costly mistakes if he was not careful. Perhaps career-ending mistakes. But his military genius, which was built in a crucible of difficult land wars, would mean that fundamental tactics and strategy could make for a great success, should he survive the adjustment period.

Here's how the metaphor translates. Scadrial's adjustment period into dealing with large-scale warfare would be rough and costly. They have most of what it takes down, and superior technology, but their ability to train and rally armies to deal with the horrors and physical strain of war would be inadequate for a long time, and their resource management would be poor. This does not necessarily spell their doom (see; the Union's ineptitude in the Civil war), but is a terrible disadvantage, which gives Roshar plenty of time to close the technology gap. I would see a Scadrian offensive slowing to a horrible crawl very quickly, and a Scadrian defensive being frantic and unorganized.

Roshar on the other hand, would have a lot on their hands with the new technology, and dealing with another completely alien and unfamiliar magic system. Radiants would fall to Mistborn or Compounders, and Ettmetal bombs would lead to multiple sore losses for them. However, having dealt with a similar situation just 15 years ago, after going through the crucible of the Desolations, which allowed them to grow used to magic-laden war would mean that for the most part their abilities would translate and evolve well. I see a Rosharan offensive suffereing extreme losses while gaining ground, and a Rosharan defensive being stalwart but destructive and costly.

The conclusion: Yes, Scadrial has tactics; yes, Rosharan military development is superior. Yes, Scadrial has tech advantage; yes, Rosharans can close the gap. <

 

whew, that's done. Now for my final takedown of Benduluke's concepts of compounding bending fundamental physics.

Concerning Compounding

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> The reason why Iron Compounding can never attain superplantary mass, and why Steel Compounding is very unlikely to exceed lightspeed, has nothing to do with the laws of physics or the maths, but with the fundamentals of Feruchemy and Allomancy themselves. 

Feruchemy is the art of using metals to manipulate, store, and unleash the innate investiture and Spiritweb of the Feruchemist. There is, however, an upper limit to the ability for a Feruchemist to store an attribute. This is the size of the metal itself. Stored Investiture takes up "space" in the metal, and as the size of the metal increases, the increase in storable Investiture lessens. There is a law of diminishing returns. 

There is also a limit to Allomantic power. An allomancer has three settings on their burning: burning, flaring, and duralumin. Allomancy works by allowing the user to tap into the power of the Shard to fuel the effects, and increased allomantic power means increased ability to burn metals, and greater effect from the metals, maxing out at Lerasium Mistborn. 

This, together with the upper limits of Feruchemy, by logical reasoning means that there is indeed an upper limit to Compounding. Even with Duralumin-Compounding, Sanderson has said the effect would not be increased power, but causing the effects to last longer. (it's on the arcanum real long can't be bothered to copy it sorry)

Now, compounding, literally, is tapping into the power of the Shard through Allomancy, but using the Shard's power to fuel Feruchemy instead. This means that the upper limit of compounding can be no more then the capabilities of the Shard, and likely tops out far below the capabilities of a Shard. I can't find the WoB, but we know that Shards can't create black holes. We don't see Shards creating stars or planets either, but rather going to preexisting ones and Investing and forming humans. 

This throws out Benduluke's ideas about Iron compounders bending gravity through sheer mass gain. I'm sorry, but if the Shards can't create a planet's worth of mass, then there's no way they can fuel Investiture enough for a human to do so. This also means that Steel Compounding likely isn't going to break Lightspeed. MeLaan is the only steel compounder we see, and although she's faster than the eye, very fast indeed, she's not doing things like traveling cross-country in seconds, or going so fast she reaches escape velocity--something you'd do long before you reached Lightspeed.<

 

 

That also puts upper limits on the Fullborn's abilities. That's important, because if a Fullborn were able to continue to compound ever increasing amounts, they'd essentially be a Shard already. 

Oh my goodness I'm writing a book, whew. Alright, I want to keep going by talking about Electrum, Atium, and Copper, and how I think we might be underestimating Mistborn's chances against a Radiant. (I mean BenduLuke probably isn't but--)

 

Electrum & Atium

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> Electrum is the non-godmetal form of Atium. It produces largely the same effect by allowing the user to see their future and change it. However, Atium and Electrum have several major differences. Atium shows the future of others, Electrum your own future. Atium also enhances the user's mental capacity, letting them take in all the information and react instantly, making them very efficient killers, because Atium taps into Ruin's Investiture, not Preservations. 

Now, here's the thing in this matchup between Era 2 Scadrial and RoW Roshar. Atium no longer exists. Ruin no longer exists. Harmony is a single, self-contradictory shard, that would be extremely difficult to separate again, this is confirmed through WoB. Atium may be derived somehow from Harmonium, but this is likely not going to occur unless Harmony wills it. I propose, and this is just my opinion, that we should not be assuming Atium-burning Mistborn, but instead Electrum-burning Mistborn, because unless we are talking about Era 1, Mistborn would instead be using Electrum. <

 

 

 

 

Copper 

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> In a re-read of TFE, a line Kelsier said popped out to me as very significant. Copper makes the burner immune to emotional Allomancy. Why? I propose that it is because the burning of copper, in addition to suppressing the Rhythms, causes the allomancer to take on the properties of a heavily-invested material, like Shardblades and Metalminds. Consider the reasons this could be plausible. In Era 1 Scadrial, we see that four metals only affect the burner--copper, bronze, pewter, and tin. Of the four external metals, two of them only affect metal, not people. Only zinc and brass target other beings directly. 

If my hypothesis is correct, this could have big ramifications for Scadrian combatants dealing with Surgebinders. If Smokers are resistant to being targeted or affected by Investiture, that would make them immune to being Lashed, or targeted directly by any Surges, which would make Smokers the equivalent of Hazekillers against Surgebinders--relatively unpowered, but trained to counter their abilities.  <

 

 

 

 

Mistborn

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> Finally we come to the Mistborn. If my hypothesis about copper is correct, then that means that on top of having the ability to do the fancy iron-and-steel bludgeoning-you-with-an-ingot shenanigans, and the ability to mess with a Radiant's Investiture with Chromium and Nicrosil, and the ability to unexpectedly shift-location with Bendalloy, and the stormlight-mimicking effects of tin and pewter (no-healing) and the reliable Atium-lite abilities of Electrum, they are also personally resistant to any Surges the Radiant could attempt to put on them. No Division, no Lashing into the sky or ground, no Adhesion, no Abrasion-slicking, none of that. Obviously all the surges can be used, but several of their applications are gone. There are still plenty of ways to kill a Mistborn. Sinking them into stone, soulcasting the air around them to crystal, encasement in Aluminum, Lashing rocks high-speed at them, literally just touching them with a sprenblade. 

I would conclude that if a Oath 3 Radiant went up against a Mistborn without knowing what a Mistborn was, but a Mistborn knew about Radiants, the Radiant would die almost immediately. Even an Oath 4 caught unawares I would mark as dead. If both the Radiant and the Mistborn knew about each other though, I think the Mistborn would still be most likely to win, (even with Oath 4), and the Radiant would have to be extremely tricksy to overcome them. 

Conversely, a Radiant who knew about Mistborn attacking a Mistborn who's never met a Radiant would still have a good chance, but they'd better start with something to immobilize the Scadrian because they're not sneaking up on them and Surges wouldn't apply.

Obviously Bondsmiths don't apply, the spiritual realm mumbo-jumbo probably trumps all of that. <

 

Alright, my word processor is telling me I'm at over 2,000 words, so I'm going to stop before I accidentally re-write Elantris. Hopefully this provides some satisfactory analysis and middle-ground for some of these arguments, and I hope a discussion about the applications of A-copper sparks somewhere but I think that could be very interesting. 

To those who have read all that: Thank you, and good job!

Let me say first I loved your synopsis and your speculation. I did mention that one of the limits of Twinborn is the storage capacity of the metal, and given that 1 or 2 arm bands on Wax allowed him to store enough weight to crash through a floor while in a time bubble (that gave the increased weight time to work on the floor), a full suit of Iron armor would allow for a massive storage capacity and being invested would be resistant to shards. Steel running hits a max threashold at the point of the friction and windresistance damage to the runner long before the speed of light but still past the speed of sound (775 mph at sea level) and with steel armor used as a metal mind much faster for longer and again resistant to shards. For that matter any compounder could have shard resistant metal armor.

Modern war no longer uses strict battle lines and if they did it would leave them sitting ducks to modern weapons thus Sun Tzu's tactics only partially translate to success and only in the abstract. 

I think you are partially on to something with Electrum. It allows one to see their own future and if you could see far enough you might anticipate what someone else would do. One interesting combination could be Electrum-A with Tin-F since Electrum gives a future sense and Tin can store any sense (Bronze, Iron, Steel, etc...) it is not restricted to the normal 5. Electrum armor would be nearly invulnerable to Lasers because of how reflective it is.

On 3/1/2021 at 0:34 AM, Bigmikey357 said:

@The Technovore I like the analysis of Sun Tzu vs the Untouchables.  I was going to make many of the same points.  But I'd add that Roshar as Sun Tzu also has the equivalent of the Manhattan Project for their weapons development.  Currently Roshar is behind Scadrial's technology but Roshar can catch up even more quickly than baseline.  My argument has always been how long can Scadrial's technology advantage hold out with someone like Navani doing R & D on the other side? Roshar gets pounded early, adjusts quickly,  and breaks Scadrial eventually.

We are thinking about this the wrong way anyway.  The Scadrian strategy should always be stealth and infiltration instead of overwhelming uses of force, that going head to head against Roshar would be incredibly stupid,  at least without allies more experienced in war. That technology advantage is already drying up as we speak and their power set leans more towards subterfuge than outright punching matches against people who can alter landscapes. Plus, given the large propensity for Radiants to have mental health issues, Soothers and Rioters are the most dangerous forces Scadrial could employ. 

The Manhattan project is more likely to occur on Scadrial before Roshar due to the Tech head start there. I would disagree that Roshar would catch up. I think Scadrial would embrace Rosharan science much faster due to their more advanced state and more grounded magic. I have to agree that emotional allomancers could prove to be a challenge to Rosharan's

On 3/1/2021 at 0:00 PM, The Technovore said:

A few Radiant Orders might seriously object, but I think the Rosharans in the middle of a planet-scale conflict wouldn't have a problem using Hemalurgy if they found out it existed. They'd do everything from spiking metalborn so the Bondsmiths can step to enhancing themselves. Which could then lead to them identifying what it is that makes the metalborn metalborn, which could lead to Bondsmiths just endowing their Radiants with Feruchemy and Allomancy... oh no how terrifying,

Surely Bondsmiths can't actually just make people metalborn. That'd be so stupidly broken, no way Sanderson allows that.

(Give Hoid Feruchemy and he'd be so Invested he could punch T-Odium in the face in all three realms.)

Rosharan's are unlikely to use Hemalurgy due to their oaths, especially Bondsmiths, but no such restriction exists for Scadrian's. I would expect to see a metal born being granted Radiant status at some point, but find it far less likely to happen in reverse since Spren are attracted to those who exemplify their values regardless of origin.

This looks like something interesting to explore.

The purpose of this topic is to project the most extreme abilities of any investiture in the cosmere based on the currently referenceable material. Ideas which can be logically defended are welcome regardless how outrageous.

As promised a coinshot laser would likely be produced by a Steel twinborn compounder after the discovery of heavy metals and at least some experiments in nuclear science on Scadrial. This individual would likely be able to detonate nuclear explosions using metal pushing and heavy metals and would need the speed of a steelrunner to avoid serious injury. Using metal pushing they could likely push small particles of radioacive metal forming a type of laser or electromagnetic particle beam at high velocity. Due to a strong spiritual affinity with steel because of being a steel twin it might be possible that they could store steel pushes and speed in a metal mind for use feruchemically yielding steel pushes and speed to exceed duralumin assisted allomancy. The nuclear particle beam could be used on its own or in concert with radioactive spheres in battle situations to inflict massive damage. The nuclear laser could be used to split atoms in a plutonium, uranium or like metal to create atomic or nuclear explosions. Due to the ability to create steel bubbles they could also probably shield themselves from the radiation of nuclear material on or near them.

With fine enough control they could also perform nuclear laser surgery. They could be outfitted in steel biomechanical armor that could act as a metal mind for both their allomantic and feruchemical abilities.

What do you think of this idea or what extreme use of investiture do you envision?

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

We'll try that agian when Scandrial can realistically make nuclear lasers.

Not really, A Stoneward made a ladder up an entire cliff in seconds, large ammounts are not a huge problem.

Good luck finding any Scandrian who can beat Superman.

He'll reach the mass of the Earth Long before he comes close to the mass required to start fusion,

Jupiter is FAR more massive than Earth and even it isn't enoguh to start Fusion.

Realistically no one has Lasers yet, but Scadrian's will likely have them first.

Making a ladder is a far cry from a large barrier wall with ceiling. I can only imagine how much stormlight that might take.

I was only referring to Superman's flying ability, but someone with the Illumination surge might be able to kill him with the right em radiation (Kryptonite frequency).

An Iron compounder might be able to allomantically initiate H fusion long before they reach earth mass as well. you really wouldn't need much fusion to generate that kind of em blast. With a little lithium gas fused you could replenish the Berylium mirror used to reflect and focus the H em blast. I say H em blast because it would likely emit radiation from Microwaves to x-ray with some gamma emissions. Microwave being most immediately dangerous to us bags of mostly water or anyone wearing metal armor.

Jupiter actually does have a low level of fusion at its core, so does earth, but the heat generated and the amount of heavy atoms nearby keeps them both from blazing like a star. Heat in the case of Jupiter keeps the H atoms apart enough that they don't fuse often, and Heavy elements in earths core don't fuse and keep H separate enough that they don't fuse often either. More Fission in earths core due to the heavy metals.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Where do steel compounders make one? I don't see that?

At that point they would be sunk to the center of their planet as @The Technovore has already pointed out.

You do realise they can make it as thick as they want? Give it an overhang to protect troops beneath it?

they have the power to manipulate stone like it's clay.

Windrunners can already get to Space.

Steel compounder pushes a plutonium sphere and bombards it with a nuclear laser, and tah-dah nuclear bomb. runs away very fast from far away.

The thicker they make it the slower they move and the more of it gets knocked down around their ears by artillery and the more time mines can be laid to detonate as the cross them.

Getting to space and having space age tech is vastly different. Superman could reach space no matter when he lived, but the weapons available to him would be limited by when he lived.

The Iron compounder only needs enough density to use his metal pulls to smash H atoms together, and he only needs to hold it long enough to do that. Even starting to sink into the earth takes time.

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

I'll give you that, now what do you do about Elsecallers soulcasting a nuke under your city while they are perfectly safe in the CR?

Can they even Pull on Hydrogen? And besides they would need the mass of a Star to make that work,

Most American soldiers were using thier own weapons, not exactly the same as professional military guns.

And two, the populations are reversed, Roshar has a significantly higher population,

Why would you cross Altered Terrain without moving a massive stone barrier in front of you?

Are you assuming their stupid?

Where do the Elsecallers soulcasting a nuke? I don't see that.

Theoretically an Iron compounder could have the density of a star or even greater depending on how much iron it would take to spiritually store that amount of density.

Yeah but the British weapons were little more advanced than the american weapons. Not enough to make much of a difference.

Stone wall? artillery can drop from over a wall. Mines can be planted in the path. Troops can shoot from elevation. The wall can be demolished back on the troops behind it. all of that can be done at a safe distance. No I assume they are unprepared for modern weaponry that can kill enmass. Thats before we start seeing space age tech on Scadrial. Roshar is hundreds of years from developing space age tech where as Scadrial is maybe decades away.