BenduLuke
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The thin black haired man sat watching the boy in the school yard from across the street, pondering why he was so glum. He stood and sauntered across the dusty street toward the boy. When the boy looked up he smiled and greeted him.
The man asked the boy "why so glum my boy?"
The boy responded "its my metal birthday."
"Well that doesn't make sense" the stranger said.
The Boy said "everyone expects me to discover my metal tonight, but I just know I will fail. All the others say so because no one has seen a hint of what it is."
The man said "here let me give you a present for you birthday. If none of the metals they give you work at least these will make you feel a little better. From where I was sitting I could see you have a lot of potential so long as you stay your true self." Then he handed the boy a pair of silvery bracers and a bag of powdery metal. "Now don't lose these or sell them because they are worth more than money can buy to you."
"Who are you?" the boy asked.
The man answered "just a man blown like Dust before the wind."
After school the boy went home for his metal party. When he walked in the door his Father noticed the bracers and asked "Kagi, where did you get those?"
"A man at the school gave them and this bag to me so I wouldn't be sad if nothing works at my metal party." He answered.
Now a metal party is a Terris tradition where the child is exposed to various alloys to see if they have any metal talents. They try to store attributes in the metals and see if they can burn any metals. Many parents can only afford the most common metals for the party so sometimes it may be years before a child discovers their metal art. Kagi's father was a poor potter so was in that situation himself. So when he saw the silvery metal he thought to himself if the metals I obtained don't work we will try those and if they don't work selling some of that metal will enable me to get some of the more expensive metals to try.
At his look Kagi asked "was it bad to let the man give me these for my birthday?"
"No Son. I think those might be lucky metals. What was the man's name?" the Boys father asked.
Kagi answered "he said he was dust."
His father said "lets get ready for the party."
Later that evening the guests were all gathered around the table after the cake and the games looking at a row of metals and dust set out for the metal ceremony. One by one Kagi tried on the bracers and tried to store attributes followed by swallowing a small amount of metal dust and trying to burn it. There were eight on the table. First Kagi tried Iron with no success, then came steel, tin, and pewter with no results. The next four, zinc, brass, copper, and bronze also failed to work for him. Finally his father took out the silvery bracers and dust saying try these. The guests stared in disbelief. One man asked how they could afford it and Kagi's father said a stranger gave it to them that day.
Kagi put on the bracers and concentrated then his eyes went wide. He said "I feel a hole inside them." When he swallowed some of the dust his he gasped and said I feel something burning inside me. The crowd cheered. One of the old men said you have a rare gift and one not normally discovered since aluminum is very expensive so be sparing with it. Then one of the youths jeered yeah old man but it is also useless since it doesn't do anything. Over the next hour as people filed out to go home they debated.
Finally once they were all gone his father told Kagi never to take off the bracers and to always be ready to swallow the dust if someone tried to take it. Keep the bracers covered in public and they painted them with his acrylics to hide the material explaining that they were very valuable so bad people might covet them.
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13 hours ago, therunner said:
Ignoring the fact that everything in Cosmere works off the same basic principles is not an interpretation. You cannot just decide to ignore what the author says (the WoBs Frustration linked) about the basic working of his world.
Scadrial does not have automated factories, so those factories still need a lot of workers. They are not as limited as Roshar is when it comes to scaling production, but they need to also mine, refine and transport resources before any manufacture takes place, steps Roshar can side step if needed.
What are the downsides to soulcasted material? It is normal matter, there is no difference between it and naturally occurring one, as far as I am aware.
It is stormlight intensive that is true, but as Stormlight is renewable relatively quickly, that is a non issue. Off-world that is another matter, but in the same way Scadrial would have not infrastructure needed to build factories off-world. The gems might prove a bigger issue, that is true, however it is hard to quantify just how much of an issue it is. Savantism still takes months/years to get to, and for Radiants it is even longer. In addition, within a highstorm Radiant soulcaster can do almost anything (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/390/#e12723), so with some small cooperation with Stormfather they have quite high potential on production.
There is no contradiction, first I listed what aluminum does on its own, no Invested Art needed. On its own aluminum does not turn off investiture or neutralize it.
In Allomancy, while burning, it removes kinetic investiture of allomancer, but that is a magical application not just anyone can access. (eg. Just like tin does not make anyone senses stronger, just allomancers), and Chromium does very similar thing, only externally (so it is not power unique to aluminum, but a function of Metallic arts). In Hemalurgy, when applied to correct bind point with Intent, it removes powers, i.e. invested abilities.
I separated it like this, to make it clear that on its own aluminum has no neutralizing/turning off effects, only when used to power Metallic arts does it gain some similar attributes.
H-Aluminum removes powers, so it is not neutralizing/turning-off investiture. If it was neutralizing/turning-off investiture it should have no problem removing Breaths but they cannot be stolen(https://wob.coppermind.net/events/80/#e5282). It would not remove Stormlight, as Stormlight is not power but Investiture (H-Nicrosil steals Investiture, although what exactly that means is unknown), in Radiant it should remove the bond and as a result the Stormlight would leave the Radiant but the Stormlight itself should be untouched.
Why is it reasonable to assume that any of 100's of bind points will do, when other metals require specific ones? What argument is there for aluminum being exceptional? Per WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/202/#e5969) you need to drive a spike through specific point on a body to rip off a specific piece of soul, not much wiggle room for aluminum being special.
Since no one in the entire history of Roshar noted effect of aluminum on spren, and Huio discovered it by accident, is sounds like something they do only in some very specific circumstances. The conjoiner fabrial is the only place where spren seem to be affected as such, and it is coincidentally also the only place where a single spren was cut in two pieces (something that could count as very specific circumstances).
If you understand that metallic arts are fueled by Shards, why were you talking about "anti-metal investiture", when there is no such thing as "metal investiture"? (God metals notwithstanding)
I do not see how this is relevant? Yes, metalminds can have large capacities, but why is it relevant for this discussion, since no one is disputing that? The closest we have come to this point is when saying that even full metalminds are still much less invested than a Shardblade.
Again, read this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623) and tell me where is Brandon saying anti-investiture is applicable only to Roshar. Tell me how can you use anti-investiture to kill Cognitive Shadows (in general), if anti-investiture is a thing only for Rosharan investiture.
As you said, Scadrian powers are coming from Harmonies investiture, and everything has anti-investiture, so why should Scadrial be exceptional? Sure, their gaseous investiture does not have form of Something-light, so the process to create anti-investiture would be different, but that is far cry from it being Realmatically impossible.
Why would matter X anti-matter annihilation release anti-light? Why not regular *-light? Or better yet, why would it release pure Shardic investiture at all?
I would not say 200 times, but Scadrial weaponry is definitely more lethal, no arguments there.
But you are completely ignoring my arguments for why it would be difficult to hit Windrunners/Skybreakers, so I do not think they hit them as easily as you assume. Gravitation user moves fast and in very different manner (continuous acceleration and nearly arbitrary changes of direction) than anything Scadrial ever encountered (yes even Coinshots). Not to mention Elsecallers (soulcasting from CR), or Willshapers (dropping on top of Scadrians from CR). Not to mention you ignoring Thunderclasts (what will Scadrians do, when the ground they have encampment on rises up, taking their structures with it?), Fused, Stormform (all that conductive metal near Scadrians), or Unmade (Heart of Revel in the middle of Scadrian high command, that would be something).
Instead of saying there are metalborn who can go toe-to-toe with Radiant, why don't you give specific examples you have in mind? I assume you mean some others than those with F-steel. EDIT: And do tell which metalborn could go toe-to-toe with 4th Oath and higher, I am curious about that. And shooting them in the head when they do not know they are in combat does not count as going toe-to-toe.
True, but greater numbers (and greater replacement numbers) mean you do not have to be as lethal as your opponent to win. Singers mature about 2 times as fast as humans, so Roshar can replenish their forces at twice the rate Scadrial can, and they already start with population 10-20 times larger.
Also different fictional series is not a good argument by any stretch, otherwise I would simply point to Ewoks vs Empire (Ewoks were less advanced than Rosharans, and Empire more advanced then Scadrial, and yet Ewoks took them down).
Alright, so if Stormlight is light, that means all Truthwatchers and all Lightweavers can now create Stormlight/Voidlight/Anti-lights, removing the greatest weakspot of Radiants. Not to mention being able to produce any gaseous anti-investiture at will.
(In case sarcasm did not register, again Stormlight=\= Ordinary light, even Coppermind says that "Stormlight is a form of gaseous investiture" and the page on Investiture lists Scadrian mists along side Stormlight. So either gaseous investiture is not ordinary light (this is true), or Radiants with Illumination can explode Allomancers/Hemalurgists, Scadrian fabrials and Cognitive Shadows at will. And per this WoB, the light Stormlight is giving off is directly from Spiritual Realm (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6389), so the light in Stormlight is not per se needed for Stormlight to be Stormlight, it is only a side effect.).
Yes, he could use storing/tapping to manipulate his fall, but that is not cancelling it. And anyone in the air (unless they have A-steel/A-iron and are near metals) have no way to manouver properly, making them great targets for Radiants flying around.
His durability in pushing the train car is not outside of normal human range (or a little). He is not bullet proof when tapping weight, nor stab proof (and Shardblades would ignore that anyway).
It seems obvious to me that we read the same WoB's and whatever and interpret them different.
I will address Aluminum one more time. When a person burns aluminum metals disappear. When a person uses a hemalurgic spike of aluminum powers disappear. It doesn't grant or steal any investiture or power to any recipient either allomantically or hemalugically. It is unique in this being a reactive metal that is entirely inert in almost every way. It has been described as an investiture sink which would indicate that investiture or power goes in but doesn't go out. How or why it does this hasn't been explained yet, but any aluminum fired with the intent that it be a hemalugic spike would if it penetrates to blood wipe all power. I interpret that as being stormlight in Radiants, but it could mean they lose their Radiant status permanently since it says power not investiture like it does in allomancy. In addition some have said that it must pierce the heart, but if it did the Radiant would be dead regardless since the aluminum would stop the heart from healing thus killing them. The Radiant who gets hit with an aluminum bullet, shrapnel or other spike would likely lose all their stormlight and would not likely be able to use stormlight until it was removed. Skybreakers and windrunners would fall from the sky if they were flying, edgedancers immediately stop being slippery, and no surges of any kind would work because their would be no stormlight to power them. It is not anti-investiture it is the scientific counter investiture metal.
Lurchers and coinshots do have ways to maneuver in the air regardless which direction they are lashed. I didn't say Wax was bullet proof and I have my own opinion of why that is, but his bones and muscles were stronger to handle the increased mass. By definition increased mass in the same volume is increased density, which would enable that person to have potentially massive strength particularly if they could compound. It also doesn't mean the density needs to be uniform and probably isn't. If Wax were storing 25% of his weight every day from age 20 to 60 and never tapped it his maximum weight stored would be almost 1.1 million lbs if he weighs 200 lbs. If he were an Iron compounder after compoiunding 5 times he would have 5 million lbs of available weight and could be 25,000 times denser for 1 day. He would probably be more than bullet proof if he wanted. Depending on how long it takes him to burn the metal mind and store the weight to compound say 1 hour (I think it is much faster) in 1 day (initial storeage time) and 5 hours of time he would have that available. We know Wax's bracers hold hundreds of thousands of pounds because he has tapped that much.
Forgive me for saying this. I don't think many of you have really thought through the potential inherent in the metal arts. It seems as if in the Future Scadrial and Roshar will be at a stalemate in terms of power so there must be something that some of you are overlooking when saying that the contest is uneven and Roshar is likely to win. Right now they can't have a conflict because neither can leave their system in force. Radiants and Fused can't travel at all and Scadrians have difficulty reaching the CR (Some do or no Ghostbloods).
I have given many specific examples look back and see. No I don't think those examples have been disproved I just got tired of trying to convince you since obviously we disagree which doesn't make either me or you right or wrong, it just means we will need to wait and see who is right if any of us are. I have even given creative Radiant examples of potential power uses that have been ignored recently.
I appreciate the effort you have taken I am just not convinced by your arguments enough to change my opinion of what I have read in the Cosmere. I don't ignore the author I disagree with what you think the author is saying of the principles he has presented and those not explained. He is intentionally vague.
That's right lightweavers and Truthwatchers have the potential to permanently kill Fused with their surges since they do have the potential to create anti-voidlight through the illumination surge, they just didn't know it was possible until after RoW. One of the things I proposed a few pages ago.
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On 5/1/2021 at 4:57 PM, Frustration said:
Also to drop it's weight
Magic in the Cosmere works on an unified theory https://wob.coppermind.net/events/339/#e10234
Once you understand the basic principles the magic of the Cosmere makes sense https://wob.coppermind.net/events/463/#e14662
Energy matter and Investiture are interchangeable https://wob.coppermind.net/events/127/#e5093
Anti-investiture is a long standing part of the Cosmere https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623
All shards have their own anti-investiture, it wouldn't make sense with what we know for them to not.
You need to hit a very specific region to steal an atribute.
Bind points are mainly a concern for the recipient https://wob.coppermind.net/events/377/#e12283
Most are stolen form the heart https://wob.coppermind.net/events/221/#e7870
The Stormfather, Syl, and Ishar have all called it Honor's perpendicularity. If the Highstorm were Honor's perpendicularity you would think that they would mention that instead of just saying "it moves"
This is Scadrian vs Rosharan magics, that has become Scadrial vs Roshar, this isn't Scadrial and all the stuff it has stolen from other worlds vs Roshar and the stuff it has stolen from other worlds.
*Shallan
When there is a reason to get more creative, Scadrial hasn't shown itself to be enough of a threat for me to need to be more creative.
Intresting sure. Powerfull enough to singlehandedly stop the Rosharan Warmachine? nope.
And again I already gave you a Rosharan Win scenario, but you "didn't see the point" and until you reply to it I'm not going to offer you more.
I can't understand what you are trying to say.
And let you get the last word? not happening.
I just don't agree with your interpretation of how the Cosmere works and I don't see any more point to trying to explain myself to you.
On 5/2/2021 at 3:09 AM, therunner said:You writing down repeatedly disproved assertions, or claiming we have not discussed points that were in fact discussed is getting a bit tiresome.
Economics of warfare were discussed previously (as Frustration pointed out). But to recap
- Scadrial has advantage in being able to scale production, but they are limited by their population (if they are building/mining/moving, they cannot be fighting), and in logistics (trains, but only in Elendel Basin and centered on Elendel, fabrial aircraft but only SoScad).
- Roshar has advantage in: production of raw resources (no need for mining due to Soulcasting), speed of production of simple items (food, swords, helmets, etc. more Soulcasting), logistics (mainly on Roshar via Oathgates and Fourth Bridge, Elsecallers/Willshapers supported by a ship in CR -> anywhere, Gravitation for traversing difficult terrain), and finally Roshar has much larger population (10-20 times the size) and parts of their population mature much faster (Singers).
Economics really do not favor Scadrial.
I do not know where you are getting that Aluminum can do all this. Aluminum does following
- Resists being invested/affected by investiture leading to ignoring pushes/pulls (Mistborn), gravitation (SA), soulcasting (SA), forgery (Emperor's Soul), healing (pretty much any direct interaction of investiture with aluminum).
- Blocks flow of investiture this leads to storing Invested liquid from shardpool (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316/#e9233), blocking rioting/soothing (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10821), blocking Connection lines (maybe, since it can shield metal from being visible to allomancer), hiding Rhythms/Pulses (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/356/#e10532), interference effect in conjoiner Fabrials (which consists of a single spren in two stones, in other Fabrials such effect is not confirmed to occur, RoW).
These are the only effects Aluminum has on its own. It does not:
- Repel spren in gemhearts (only fabrials and only conjoiners)
- Interfere with investiture making spren function (again, the only effect on spren is in conjoiner fabrials)
- Turn off investiture (no such effect)
- Neutralize investiture (no such effect, it is inert to investiture instead)
In metallic arts it does the following
- Allomancy, remove all internal investiture (most likely kinetic) of Allomancer.
- Feruchemy, store Identity.
- Hemalurgy, remove powers (so no, not the same thing as in Allomancy).
Now the only interesting in combat is Hemalurgy, but you need to 1) Hit correct bind point. 2) Do so with Intent. Since human body has around 200-300 bind points (and a lot of them are in heart), each metal has ~13-19 binds (assuming equal distribution). If someone is facing you, you can see only 7-10 binds points for one metal, and at least one of those is in the heart, so good luck hitting them with a gun (since the bind points are not that large, if multiple can fit on heart).
So, what you are saying above is wrong, there not dozens for individual metals, there is at best ~20. Anywhere will not do for aluminum, there is no reason why it should be special among all the others, your speculation is not fact (especially when it is supported by exactly nothing). It is not anti-investiture spike, it just removes powers, if it was anti-investiture it would be much more explodey.
In addition, Rosharan has no inherent power, so aluminum spike would most likely remove the connection between Radiant and Spren (that being the only power they have, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/91/#e779). However, since Nahel Bond is voluntary, the person and Spren could simply reestablish it afterwards (if Radiant survived).
If Thunderclast was destroyed conventionally they could just reform a body immediately. In addition, leecher would not be able to destroy Thunderclast/Fused/Spren since leeching operates like Larkin do (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13/#e5023), and the only Fused who died permanently dies due to Anti-light, despite Larkin being present for previous Desolations.
If it is timed explosive, than it explodes at mostly the same height, Gravitation user can change their altitude by ~50 meters in 3.8 secons with just a Single Lashing, good luck hitting them. Windrunner/Skybreaker can cover 1 km in ~25 seconds under single Lashing, and those of 3rd oath and above can use Spren as unbreakable shield. If they started 3 km away (far enough even Tin eye could not spot them) and then lashed themselves 6 times in direction of Scadrians, Rosharans would reach Scadrians in 20 seconds. Unless they could spot them, communicate that, point the gun in the correct direction (or directions) and fire in that time, they are toast.
Or you know, they could simply fly 2 km high with a boulder ~200 kg in weight, get over Scadrians position and lash the stone downwards. To use your phrasing: 'Bye bye hunkered down Scadrians/ships/heavy weapons'. Not to mention using Reverse lashing they could create homing weapons(per Raboniel Radiants of old did this), no need for too large accuracy when you have self-guided missiles. And their range is potentially unlimited since Lashed objects continues to accelerate, it all depends on how much Stormlight they can infuse.
No, Southern Scadrial has flying machines, and they are not mechanical, they are magical (you know, using primer cubes). Without magic they could not fly at all, they have no aerodynamics to speak off and are much heavier than air without usage of primer cubes so it primarily needs Feruchemy not allomancy.
Since Roshar has magical flying machines, are they also 1920's tech level or higher? No. From what we see in BoM, Southern Scadrial is more advanced in technological implications of Metallic Arts, and based on slip of Harmony they are also ahead at least in understanding electromagnetism (potentially having radios and such), but until seeing more of them we have no idea how much and in what ways.
Yes, the premise is that they can engage in conflict. That does not mean that suddenly they got powers they do not usually have, like Scadrians suddently being able to go to Cognitive. All it does mean is that both Rosharans and Scadrians are somehow both in the same place, and they can use their powers as usual on their planet, that is it.
Please do mention Rosharan advantages we are ignoring, the purpose of the thread is to try and determine strengths/weaknesses and maybe outcome of some conflicts (whether individual scale, or large scale). If you are holding some new information back, you are not really arguing in good faith.
Then use them, I do it too. WoBs usually mention other conflicting WoBs, could you show some outdated ones?
So either underwater, or in the middle of a super-hurricane? Highstorm moves at ~500km/h, the wind streams inside it are faster, it moves faster then winds in the most extreme tornadoes! Highstorm is pretty much hurricane sized tornado, not a good point to start your invasion from. Either option is suicidal for Scadrians.
Not potentially, they do have smaller forces, by a factor of 10-20 times smaller in fact.
Also the thread is Scadrial vs Roshar, not Scadrial and stuff from other worlds vs Roshar and their stuff from other worlds. Should we start including Nightblood, Asterisk and Vasher in our discussions? Or the Change Dawnshard? If so, the fight becomes quite one-sided.
You have been told multiple times, by multiple different people then metal is not investiture or invested on Scadrial. So again, metal in Allomancy serves as key, that is it (here are some WoBs saying that: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/74/#e4341 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/357/#e10589 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/295/#e10097 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/337/#e10133 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6129 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98/#e856 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/77/#e6839 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/39/#e402 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/358/#e10753 ). I hope you will finally realize the point and will stop making false claims.
The investiture powering their abilities comes from Preservation/Harmony (or Ruin in Hemalurgically granted powers) (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6072), and is just like any other investiture, i.e. it has anti-investiture associated with it. Per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623) anti-investiture is general concept, otherwise it could not be used to kill Cognitive Shadows generally (since Kelsier is a Shadow made of Preservation/Harmony investiture), relevant part:
No specifiers that it concerns only Cognitive Shadow from Roshar, just CS in general, hence anti-investiture can be made for any given Shard.
If you think we keep rehashing old things, why not write down interesting uses of Radiants powers yourself? No one is stopping you.
Some are powerful and interesting, but interesting is not enough in Combat (blobfish are intersting), and most are simply not powerful enough to go toe-to-toe with even just 3rd Oath Radiant, being either slower/weaker/less dexterous or all three. There are exception like F-steel or F-gold with some A-powers, but vast majority is useless in combat, not to mention that Twinborn are less numerous than Radiants.
If you are talking about Chapter 7 in BoM, he also does note that it felt like slamming into a wall. Increased mass means the train car will move instead of him. And even a normal person can push/pull a train a bit and get it moving, it is an old strongman feat (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP00VmKx_No). When the train is still moving (like in Chapter 7) it is even easier.
When you stop posting falsehoods (light=Stormlight, metals being investited/investiture , anti-investiture being only for Roshar, passive powers of aluminum, claiming Compounding takes seconds, etc.) people will stop replying so much.
I think Scadrial has more potential ability to scale up production well in excess to Roshar. The reason is that to produce the fabrials is limited to a few artisans and by the number of available spren at any given time. Scadrial has the potential for ramped up assembly lines using machines and is not limited by the need of artisans and spren.
You make a good point that Rosharans can make materials but there are major downsides to soulcasting material and it is a very gem and stormlight intensive process. If you run low on the appropriate gem soulcasting becomes very limited, and those who do it eventually kill themselves doing it.
Your following statements seem to contradict each other:
"These are the only effects Aluminum has on its own. It does not:
Repel spren in gemhearts (only fabrials and only conjoiners)
Interfere with investiture making spren function (again, the only effect on spren is in conjoiner fabrials)
Turn off investiture (no such effect)
Neutralize investiture (no such effect, it is inert to investiture instead)
In metallic arts it does the following
Allomancy, remove all internal investiture (most likely kinetic) of Allomancer.
Feruchemy, store Identity.
Hemalurgy, remove powers (so no, not the same thing as in Allomancy)."
it is because it says remove powers instead of neutralize investiture in Hemalurgy that I fear it would be more permanent and if removing investirure and removing powers is not turning off or neutralizing investiture what is it? I still assume that the power aluminum removes from Radaiants is stormlight. Since Hemalurgic Aluminum only does one thing it is reasonable to assume any of the 100's of bind points will do. Note Hemalurgic aluminum gives not attributes at all it only takes.
Since spren move away from aluminum in fabrials it is not unreasonable to consider they might do so in almost any other situation as well, but I will agree it cannot be assumed as to whether they will or wont.
Feruchemists build up their investiture in their metalminds and in the case of compounders they are filling it with Harmony granted investiure instead of storing only their own attributes for later use. They are fueling Feruchemy with Allomancy and doing so with what amounts to an ever increasing pipe like from a straw, to a garden hose, to a fire hose, to a water main and beyond. It is hinted that their may be a way to compound allomancy with feruchemy but we don't have any examples or descriptions of that yet. So yes I understand that metal only opens the investiture pipe for use. Metalminds must have incredible capasity since Wax could store tens or even hundreds of thousands of pound of weight in his. For that matter they seemed nearly limitless. Wayne's limit wasn't his metalminds but how difficult it was to store health.
As for aniti-investiure https://coppermind.net/wiki/Lights#Anti-Lights at this point officially it says:
Other anti-Investiture[edit]
It is unknown whether hybrid Lights and Shards outside of the Rosharan system have anti-Investitures of their own. Khriss states in the Ars Arcanum that, though long theorized, the anti-Lights are her first evidence of an anti-Investiture.
So since Scadrian investiture is not accomplished through or powered by light it is unlikely there is an anti-investiture or at least not one easily producible by another system. You wouldn't want to soulcast anti-matter because the instant consequences would be very destructive even to the caster. The very air would react to it in exponential explosions while trying to create it. And it would likely release anti-light at the same time in all directions. Perma kill everyone in the area including the soulcaster. Besides as it says any other anti-investiture is pure speculation at this point. So for now Anti- void or stormlight is the only anti-investiture and would serve like kryptonite to Rosharans.
Scadrian weapons really could be 200 times more effective and lethal than Medievil weaponry (Swords, sheilds, pikes and such). A civil war era battalion(Scadrial) with repeating rifles, machine guns, and artillery would decimate whole armies of Arthurian soldiers(Roshar). Most Radiants would also be vulnerable to those weapons before they could strike and could be detected so surprise is not on their side. Some potential metalborn could go toe to toe with any Radiant at any oath and with battalion support would devastate virtually any army Roshar could field. Numbers don't mean you will win. A good example of this where Tech trumps numbers is in the David Weber Series of Safehold, and they start at roughly Renesance tech planet wide.
Sorry we will just need to agree to disagree that you can't use right frequency of light to kill Radiants. Stormlight is light and nothing any of you has quoted has proven otherwise to me to the contrary from my perspective It further supports my opinion.
17 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:A note on the Lashings and F-iron topic that came up earlier:
Fair enough, but if he tapped weight he would potentially become a battering ram until the lash ran out and could mitigate any fall by storing all of it during his fall. Plus when Wax changes weight/mass he said his speed changes as a result. BoM on the dance floor with Khriss. Someone who could compound would have even more control and would be even more of a threat. The rail car scene in BoM shows that Wax's durability does increase with his weight to compensate. He was more durable when he pushed the car from the tracks than when he was on the car because he could afford to tap more weight there and did. One of the things he needed to be careful of on the car was crushing himself by pushing to hard when that wasn't a worry on the tracks.
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2 minutes ago, Frustration said:
Economic warfare was back on like page 30ish.
Not likely, Spren are not universally repelled by aluminum, Fused use it, and The Sibling had tons of it inside of them. Leeching a Thunderclast would be like disrupting a Kandra by leeching.
It's not an earth Airship, it's not even possible without metalic arts. And hitting someone in the air would be the shot of a lifetime.
No they don't, if bronze lent itself so heavily to the discovery of anti-investiture it would have been found earlier. Even with tht Rhythms which are basically the same thing it took over seven thousand years for anti-investiture to be discovered.
Again, and I feel like I mention this every three pages, you have to hit a very specific region of the heart in order to preform hemalurgy.
So if you have the links, so us the primary sources.
And 9 times out of 10 the Arcanum will tell you if there are contradicting WoBs
But it isn't Honor's perpendicularity, Dalinar doesn't yank the Highstorm around whenever he opens Honor's Path, and the Stormfather wasn't even aware of Ishar opening it.
Seon's are from Sel though, so Scadrial doesn't have them.
The Sybling was one spren that made up the tower. A highly advanced spren at that.
If your fighting for survival you would spare no expense. Gems from fallen foes would be valuable on Scadrial as well.
It may not be an earth air ship but it is still mechanical they just use allomancy instead of fossil fuels.
There may not be an equivalent anti-investiture on Scadrial. We are talking about destructive interference in waves and metals have no such thing. Anti-metal investiture is pure speculation with no supporting evidence like you complain I was doing. Seekers detect the rhytms of investiture.
No you don't need to hit the heart for hemalurgy. Each power has a specific target to where it must be hit and there are dozens of them especially when the metal can have potentially many powers like steel or iron then you must hit the person in a very specific place and put it in the recipient in another specific place. Some do require the heart, but that doesn't mean aluminum does, for that matter it is from my perspective that anywhere will do for it like some others do. An aluminum hemalurgic spike doesn't transfer any powers to others it is entirely an anti-investiture spike. I suspect that aluminum handcuffs will be used in Era 3 to contain invested individuals with tiny spikes to pierce the skin.
Ishar is a bondsmith herald and practically a walking perpendicularity. The Highstorm is likely to be honors perpendicularity, but what Dalinar does is an unbound bondsmith perpendicularity where he connects the 3 realms.
I wouldn't bet on that since Shallon got hers from a scadrian based organization.
When are you going to come up with some possibly interesting uses of Radiant powers instead of just rehashing the same old things?
I even gave you some ideas earlier in the conversation, but you ignored them in favor of criticizing my Metal art ideas instead. Even Khriss in BoM thinks that twin combinations are potentially very powerful and interesting, why don't you see it?
Oh and also in BoM Wax did get much stronger and more resistant to damage when tapping his metalmind to push the train car as indicated when he pushed from the car and couldn't push as hard because he couldn't tap as much weight so was both weaker and more likely to crush himself if he pushed as hard as he could. He was only an Iron Ferring so was very limited in how much weight he could store.
Really though I am surprised you are still responding to me because you said you thought this topic was over. If your responding because you want to convince me your opinion is right know this no matter how many times you say the same things it wont convince me because when I have looked up your references I didn't interpret them the same as you. So I am afraid what it comes down to for me is that we just disagree and we will need to see what happens next.
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When you spend hundreds of pages arguing fantasy war contests and physics in the Cosmere and refuse to let the subject die even if others tell you that your wrong much of the time.
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Dust smiled his hair bleeding to black and said, "there is a conflict coming and you are now one of Harmony's swords able to both preserve and destroy. He is preparing another to use on your home world, but he needs you to help guide other worlds starting with this one. I also need you to keep an eye on things here while I take care of other business and by the look of you I think you might finally be up to the task."
"what about this ghostblood assignment the girl gave me", I asked.
He said, "they have their place but seem to be misdirected here, you might guide them toward withdrawing for now. At least until the situation is resolved here. Once you finish with that go to the Ukalaki peaks there is an enemy agent expected soon which could prove very dangerous. I think I will have a word with T on my next trip and remind him to reign in his people here."
The rest of his visit was spent catching up and sharing news of home.
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21 hours ago, Frustration said:
Aluminum is also exspencive as crap, it's probably worth more than gold at this point.
Aluminum won't do anything to Thunderclasts. and Without any penetration explosives are going to be largly ineffective.
I don't see a single way any common user of metalic arts could defeat a Thunderclast.
War is expensive we haven't been discussing the economics of a possible conflict.
Aluminum will block any healing ability, repel the spren in their gem heart and potentially interfere with whatever investiture makes them function.
The thunderclast would be demolished long before any metal arts needed to be used, but if it got in range leechers might drain it of the investiture that gives it life or just use leecher infused allomantic grenades for the purpose.
11 hours ago, therunner said:The cars Scadrial has are still a novelty item, so still around 1880s. The do not have any flack guns (at least 20 years of tech development needed there), so no reason to consider that.
Aluminum is investiture inert, it does not actively suck out investiture (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6364 , you can also see it on Coppermind if you do not like WoBs), so it would do little to Thunderclasts (as those are not really reliant on healing which aluminum would prohibit). Heavy artillery would be more useful against Thunderclasts, but if you destroy one body they can simply make another one, as you did nothing to Thunderclast itself.
Scadrial has strictly no way of going in or out of CR outside of Shardpool and they do not know where that is (much less if you could transport heavy machinery through it). On Rosharan end the only usable perpendicularity is Cultivations and that is underwater, so considering that any invasion would quickly end right there.
If Scadrians are somehow on Roshar (as was posited by ScadrianTank), then they still have no proper access to CR outside of Shardpool, so unless all the fighting is in Horneaters peak (where a lot of their tech would have difficulty due to terrain) they have no way to defend against attacks from CR. So yes, I assume all Scadrial tech has to be in PR, because otherwise they are stuck in CR and have nothing to do.
Windrunners could simply attack machine guns by lashing large stones at them, after softening them up like this they could go for kill. Artillery is not precise enough to help against airborne Windrunners, outside of few lucky shots. Also Lightweaving is 'quiet' enough to be undetectable by Alerters, it is entirely possible that Bronze misting could not detect it, allowing Lightweavers to get close enough to strike.
Scadrial barely progressed in the last ~300 years. By end of Era 1 Scadrial has canned goods (~1810), well developed and mainted canal system (17th century, but also much earlier) and knowledge of gunpowder weapons (suppresed by TLR, 17th century). In addition Words of Founding contained hints of electricity and flight. In the 300 years, Scadrial has effectively progressed by maybe ~150 years if we are being generous, they are quite bad at innovation as a culture. In our world, between hints of electricity (~1750s) and radio is 150 years. SoScad seems to be doing better, but we have too little information, and the posited question considered only Elendel Basin.
Scadrial has no way to coordinate between CR and PR, so troops would most likely not be there as they would have to split their force in two (which is already much smaller than Rosharan force) and hope they could be in roughly the same spot (so they would have to be on some form of ship, limiting their options).
On the other hand I think you are missing a lot of limitations of metallic arts, both in ability and in logistics of them.
You would do better not to trust Coppermind too much, there is a reason entire section of forum is dedicated to corrections (not to say that Coppermind is bad, just that when primary sources are available, it is useful to at least check them). It for example has not yet been fully updated with information from RoW, or from new WoBs from December. By relying on it too much you ignore newer developments.
On the other hand I would invite you to consider more of Surges and limitations of metallic arts (and what aluminum mechanically does).
Flak is simply a timed explosive so Scadrial does have the tech to produce artillery with that capability and lots of bullets would have the same effect. Bye, Bye most Radiants along with all other soldiers. Scadrial also has mechanical flying machines which further implies near 1920's tech. Though the air ships might imply an even higher level of tech.
One of the premises of this discussion is that Rosharan's and Scadrians are able to engage in the conflict and Scadrians are on Roshar so they had to get their through the CR somehow, but for now we know invested Rosharans cannot travel the other way.
Surges can be countered by Aluminum and Anti-light though what each does is different. Scadrial also has the metal ability to quickly determine the Anti-light weakness.
Oh and I do keep in mind surge limitiation and possibilities, but since the discussion in gerneral favors Radiants I see no need to ellaborate on Radiant advantages (which in my opinion many have been undersold because their advocates seem more concerned with down playing Metalic advantages instead).
Aluminum turns off, neutralizes, and blocks investiture. If used with the intention of being a spike it does the same thing as it does allomantically. Wipe investiture, and perhaps more completely that leaching. One interpretation of what it does Hemalugically is to remove the ability to use investiture going forward. Almost like it breaks a person's connection to investiture. Personally in the case of Radiants I think it will do to stormlight what it does to metals allomanically. Erase it. if instead it removes a persons ability to use investiture period it would be very devastating.
I interpret that when Navani says stormlight acts like liquid it is her way of saying it has wave properties just like regular light does. Light in the Cosmere is invested just like metal. One example of this is White Sand. It does require some means just like metal to be used though.
Coppermind does have links to current relevant Primary sources for its articles. The WoB is full of outdated material.
We don't know where the Scadrians arrive on Roshar. The peaks are possible, but so is anywhere the Highstorm touches during a HighStorm (it has been theorized that it is Honors Perpendicularity while the peak pool is Cultivations).
I will grant Scadrial has potentially smaller forces, but their weapons enable much more wide scale killing and their best weapons will work where ever they are. Coordinating between realms only takes 2 Seon's. Even though the forces would be split the majority would still be in the PR as with Scadrian weapons they would need fewer to defend the CR based on the limit of forces that could be brought against them. Jasna could be gunned down long before her soulcasting in the CR would become a major threat.
The range and accuracy of windrunners is much less than that of guns and artillery. Besides in war why would you use a gun of any kind in the open if you didn't need to.
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6 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:
I'll throw in a hypothetical. Coalition's army they sent to take Emul vs Northern Scadrial's defense force.
Coalition has:
- Infantry with spears, swords, and pretty formations.
- Limited cavalry
- Fabrial platforms
- Regular Shardbearers
- A dozen Edgedancers
- A 4th Oath Elsecaller
- A 3rd Oath Bondsmith
- 16 Lightweavers whose levels I don't remember
- And let's say all of their Windrunners. That would be around 250 squires and 50 3rd Oath Knights.
Basin has:
- A force equipped with firearms
- Artillery
- Some machineguns
- Mistings
- Ferrings
- Koloss-blooded(?)
The way I see it, all of Roshars strength comes from Radiants. If we remove them and Meatalborn from the picture, I don't see any way for a medical army to win over any late 1800s force. I see your superior battle tactics arguments, but it still seems too far-fetched. But if anyone has any ideas on how to defeat an enemy that has an effective range of dozens to hundreds of yards greater than yours, I'll be interested in reading them. The range numbers are for bows (60 yards) and 1860 Henry(100 yards) or 1865 Spencer(500 yards).
If the battle happens on Roshar, Scadrial loses. Renewable Stormlight, a Perpendicularity, supply with Oathgates and Highstorms create an unwinnable situation.
If the battle happens in the Basin, they have a chance, depending on whether they can deal with Windrunnders and the Elsecaller quickly or not. Bondsmith is also a big question here. I don't think that Dalinar can take a Perpendicularity of a Shard to a different Shardworld, but for the sake of consistency, let's say that he can.
In this scenario, Windrunners seem like the lagers threat, particularly full ones. They are the only units that can reliably engage with Scadrians because they can fly. They are almost impossible to hit, don't stop when they are hit, and can destroy the entire machinegun nest with a few sweeps of a Shardblade. Their biggest weakness as a battalion is that killing one full knight removes powers from all his squires. To counter them, we use Tineyes and Seekers as sentries. Ideally, with a good few squads of rifleman.
Jasnah is a good contender for being an even greater threat than the Windrunners. Shardplate and blade, combined with her powers, make her a literal tank sent against a 19th-century military force. If she approaches in stealth, she can decimate fortifications, ammunition storages, railways, bridges and gates, never mind people. A good two dozen of Thugs and Brutes can probably deal with her, but something tells me that if Scadrians wouldn't manage to catch her in a trap with explosives, killing her by conventional means would probably be a massacre.
Dalinar works as a battery 24/7, trying to provide enough Stormlight for the Radiants and Soulcasters. Against him, the Basin should send as many assassins as possible. Because without Dalinar, Rosharans turn into a big medieval army. I assume that pulling Investiture directly from the Spiritual realm is quite distinct, so finding him with A-Bronze shouldn't be difficult.
Lightweavers are either Soulcasting or acting as saboteurs. The only way I can think of to fight against them is to look hard and shoot them full of lead once you identified them.
Shadbearers are difficult to kill but easier than Jasnah because having a Shardblade as your only weapon makes circling them less dangerous. They can probably be killed by conventional means.
Threats from Scadrial are not people, but artillery, machinegun nests, and infrastructure. Windrunners with firebombs or just their blades should make easy work of them.
The attitude of Scadrians toward war may be less of a crutch than the ideas of battlefield honor and fair fights that lords and ladies seem to have. The history of warfare is funny in hindsight because so many things that seem obvious had to be proven in the field with blood. When Maxim's machinegun was first introduced, nobody cared for it.
There is a story about a British cavalry unit that was issued a Maxim gun for a training exercise. The unit's commander, Edward, if I recall correctly, ordered to set up at an elevated position, wait for the "enemy" to show up, and open fire. After the exercise, Edward got called to speak with his brigade commander. Confident in his victory and with a smile on his face, Edward told his commander, "You're all dead, sir!" His commander replied that he'd never seen such a lack of cavalry spirit more blatantly displayed and ordered Edward to return to the barracks by foot as punishment.
Modern hand grenades and tanks were developed as solutions for the problems of trench warfare of WW1. Hand grenades for clearing the enemy trench and tanks for crossing no man's land without being killed by artillery shrapnel, enemy machineguns, or drowning in mud. Since they hadn't encountered anything like that, it's a little early to expect them to have either, no?
A decent line up though it seems to me that Scadrian Tech is more like just pre WWI Since they have cars. The range of artillery also seems short for the period since artillery range could potentially be miles and or thousands of yards depending on the piece. Also using aluminum for projectiles and shrapnel would be effective against all but 4th oath Radiants and Someone mentioned thunderclasts. Oh the flack used against Windrunners and Skybreakers could be Aluminum too. Thunderclasts if they could even be used off system would be vulnerable to heavy artillery since stone is still brittle and they are a huge target making them easy to hit from far away.
You make a good point that if the fight happens on Roshar Scadrians would be at a disadvantage, but also at this point it would need to be since Radiants are trapped there. Bronze mistings could guard against sneak attacks by Radiants or Fused since they are natural detectors and Tin eyes could detect other attempted sneak attacks. I don't think enough Windrunners would get through the machine guns and artillery to make that much difference. All the Scadrian Tech can be transported into the CR so fleeing to CR to sneak and Attack would leave those who do more not less vulnerable to attack, or do you think that all of the tech would be moved back to the PR on Arrival? The ultimate detector from Scadrial would be a Windwhisper/Sentry. They would be nearly impossible to sneak past.
Scadrial is at the point where it could quickly ramp up its industrial production and innovation to produce arms for war, but the same can't be said for Roshar.
Jasnah is only one person and could be overwhelmed by numbers and detected long before she could strike, don't count on the CR there would likely be troops there as well and She would be without Plate or Blade there. Again Aluminum based weaponry would be lethal especially in the CR against Radiants of any kind regardless how much stormlight they have.
9 minutes ago, therunner said:Ah, that also makes sense.
I am not sure if that would be enough, Kaladin got his spite cut multiple times before he needed a refill. However, it is a viable tactic albeit a difficult one.
True, but even slightly damaging them is still an improvement compared to current situation where they have no other option other than Shardblade or Radiants Surges. I do concede that it would probably not be too effective, unless you somehow managed to get the explosive inside the rock.
Thank you for the clarification. That Listener tradition is interesting, very honorable. I guess it makes sense that Singers that turned their back on Odium would incline towards Honor again.
Heavy weapons and artillery would drain a lot of stormlight to stop Radiants, but it would be much simpler to just use Aluminum based weapons and Scadrians do know they are effective against invested individuals.
High explosives targeted at Thunderclasts to open them to Aluminum poisoning from a long distance would be effective and since they are so large they would make relatively easy targets for heavy artillery. Heavy artillery would probably shatter the stone Thunderclasts are made of.
I still think most of you are missing the potential of metal arts especially @Frustration, but I concede that I can't convince you of what I think is possible. Oh I actually trust the Coppermind more than WoB's since it seems to be the current distillation of the WoB's. One thing about the WoB's is that any quoted could be out of date, but the Coppermind is kept more up to date and has the most current understandings of how the Cosmere works because it is constantly being updated as we go forward. So I guess you could say I reject the request not to use it as reference when possible. I would admonish each of you to examine the Scadrian powers and consider how their combination might prove useful in a conflict. True not all of them would provide direct one on one martial potential, but if we are talking about a war many would provide balance altering support for it even on Roshar.
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21 hours ago, The Technovore said:
That's assuming Scadrial has the resources and ability to advance that far in Tech while they're so busy trying to survive against Roshar that has about as many combined (Radiants + Fused) magic users as they do, and a far larger population. Think about that--nearly every misting and Ferring matched up against a Radiant or Fused. Even if their magic users out-numbered Roshar 2-to-1... I'd put money on the dudes with insta-kill swords, super-healing and super-armor any day.
Lasers with an anti-tone would need to pass through the Fused to hit the gemheart, and would have to be extremely broad to harm the spren of a Radiant. We don't know how suspectible spren are to anti-light when they're in blade form, so that's a bit of guesswork. I'm not saying impossible--Era 3 and 4 Scad could pull it off with difficultly--but if you threw Era 2 Scad into an interplanetary war, they wouldn't be relying on physics like that for their victory/survival.
The thing with aluminum that's deadly for Radiants is that you can't heal around it. A bullet embedded in a Radiant can't be pushed out and healed up with light--which makes it just as deadly as a normal bullet would be for a normal person, but if the Aluminum goes out the other end, it's just another bullet wound that light will heal up. Similarly if you stabbed a Fused with an aluminum spear and left the spearhead in them, they'd be going straight to Braize. I... can't say whether piercing a Fused's Gemheart with aluminum would kill them, or if an Aluminum sword could hurt a spren. Probably not? Otherwise why would Brandon introduce anti-Light "so that spren and Fused had a way to die"? I can't rule it out completely though. Maybe someone else can.
Shardplate absolutely would protect against Aluminum just like everything else, because the plate, when summoned, is made from physical metal.
Also note that Roshar has a WMD too. While the Scadrians have Ettmetal, Rosharan Anti-Light carries just as much explosive power, (actually more, per ounce, but they can't field quite as much due to gemstone limitations) and when anti-stormlight is discovered, they'll have easily-producible anti-light grenades that any soldier can carry, that brings devastation on a similar level to Dustbringers. If they do discover some gigantic gemstones or perhaps (In Era 4 times) make some, that could be a threat to a city like Elendel.For now Scadrial has weapons which would decimate Rosharn troops en mass and affect most mid-level and lower Radiants so even with a population advantage it might not be enough for Roshar. Also for now Rosharan Magic is restricted to Roshar so Radiants and Fused are only a threat there. We know that will change but don't know what will enable that ability to leave.
No Roshar doesn't really have grenades. What they have are 2 lab accidents where as soon as they intentionally tried to combine voidlight and anti-voidlight in a gem. This is not something they are able to weaponize into a grenade at this time, and I suspect we wont ever see. What I predict we will see is Scadrian's using anti-light weapons against Rosharans at some point in the future. I don't dispute the potentially destructive force of light anti-light explosive, just the practicality of creating or using one without blowing yourself up. Brandon has been quoted saying that Aluminum is scientific anti-investiture tech and Anti-light is designed specifically to give the kill factor for Rosharan magic. There may be no analog to anti-light in any other system because no other system is wave based that we know of.
both you and @therunner have both said that Fused will come back if killed by Aluminum and that is true, but in virtually every part of the Cosmere it has been shown to counter investiture. Fused use it even though they have been faced with high oath Radiants at some point of each conflict so it must be effective against Radiants even ones potentially in Shards. It seems to disrupt all forms of investiture except storing and tapping Identity for some reason. That disruptive influence is even used by Navani.
Shardplate is made of spren made physical, and lesser spren have been shown to have an aversion to Aluminum so there is a small possibility that aluminum weapons might affect it especially since Shard armored Radiants are not new and yet Fused still use aluminum weapons.
12 hours ago, therunner said:Armored person in SotD 2 was heavy because they were wearing shardplate, that thing weighs at ~650 kg in Roshar's weaker gravity (per tWoK), on world with standard gravity it would weigh nearly a ton. So no need for stormlight to become heavy .
You are forgetting that unlike any metalborn, Radiants actually fought in full scale wars for hundreds of years, maybe a millenium. And we have yet to actually see the most martially oriented order (Stonewards) fight in groups. Metalborn (mostly misting really) are trained for small group fights at best, Radiants are trained for fighting large scale battles (so not really individual fights) and wars of extermination.
Roshar has much larger population than Scadrial, Scadrial is the least populated of the major Shardworlds (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3466), it is entirely possible that for each Metalborn you have at least Regal or Fused, and for each Twinborn you have more than 1 Radiant (assuming all spren bonded).
And Roshar also has WMDs (if they produce enough anti-light), and equivalent of bunker busters (kinetic weaponry driven by surge of gravitation).
I will no longer argue whether F-steel actually makes burning effect stronger, I do not think either of us will convince the other. I still maintain that it burns faster only relative to people around them (akin to people burning metals inside Bendalloy bubble) and since B-bubbles do not make people inside stronger, neither will F-steel.
However, duralumin most definitely does not increase range. I am in the middle of my re-read of Mistborn (currently in middle of HoA), and in the jump across valley she merely pushed at something nearby with duralumin enhanced push (so no need for greater range) and in all other of her uses she never notes that she affects metal farther away then usual, her pushes are just stronger and the range on which she can affect metals remains unchanged.
Also Vin states that without duralumin+pewter, her duralumin-pushes/pulls would crush her, so even if F-steel enhances pushes/pulls the user would crush themselves.
It is more complicated than that, however gravitational acceleration on object is independent off objects mass, so increased weight alone would do nothing to the lashing. Gravitational lashings have no correlation to weight of object (outside of consuming more stormlight to sustain), per WoB(https://wob.coppermind.net/events/463/#e14664) lashing overrides gravity and the object is then pulled in direction of fictitious supermassive object (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14101). So since gravitational acceleration does not depend on mass, any object no matter how heavy, will experience the same acceleration when lashed.
Wax or Sazed are still affected by gravity, so to have F-iron user not be affected by lashings just because they increase mass does not make sense. It is possible that in future Brandon will reveal that these two magic system interact in some non-trivial way, however so far there is literally zero evidence for that. F-iron makes you heavier, Lashing changes the direction you fall in, that is it.
I would also point out that F-iron users do not (or should not) have unlimited increased ability to handle their increased mass, there are points were their tapped mass is too great for them to support it (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11569). In WoA when Sazed is holding the gate, he needs to tap F-pewter to remain standing because his muscles are not strong enough to handle the increased mass from F-iron (WoA, pg. 679). However it seems that Brandon either forgot that, or that in Era 2 feruchemy works a bit differently because Wax does not seem to be limited like that, or it is possible that Wax never really tapped that much while standing for it to be a problem. However, since per WoA it seems that limit on tapping mass before being crushed into ground is lower than the strength of frozen ground, I think Iron compounder would crush themselves before they would crack stone.
Burning of atium was in order to temporarily slightly weaken Ruin (that investiture eventually returns to Ruin in usable form, it might just take some time) so that Preservation could destroy Ruin (or Ruin's vessel more specifcally) without being destroyed first.
Also, power (therefore investiture) of Shard is infinite (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256/#e8702), nothing TLR could do would prevent Well of Ascension from refilling, or Atium from condensating (destroying the pits would just temporarily halt it).
To control Kandra in era 2 you would definitely need a team of allomancers, even in Era 1 it required duralumin. Using nicroburst is also a valid option.
Lord Venture was also drugged up narcissist and paranoiac and even then all duralumin+soothing did was make him stumble. Sure it scared him because he did not expect her to be so powerful, but it did not really seem like something debilitating (it was just a short burst after all).
Aluminum is investiture-inert, not investiture negating, that is only its internal Allomantic effect. At best it would prevent invested healing, but it might not be enough to kill them as aluminum weapon in wound is not enough to prevent Return (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6364) and for extreme healing spiritual aspect takes over (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3535) so the wound would remain but the person might stay alive despite it (possibly crippled however).
Also, Fused use aluminum to be able to parry shardblades, not to penetrate Shardplate. Shardplate is still quite thick physical armor, the only advantage aluminum would have is that it would ignore some magical properties, but not the physical ones.
And again on the light thing, the only thing Scadrial can make are ordinary lasers, those are not made of Stormlight/Voidlight/Lifelight, so it will not annihilate it. Gaseous investiture may give off light (photons) but it is not made of them. So Scadrial cannot create antilight, not without getting their hands on some Stormlight/Voidlight/Lifelight first. To sum up
- Stormlight/Whateverlight = pure gaseous investiture of a Shard, like mists -> not made of photons. It has anti-particle/anti-investiture in the form of anti-light, which so far requires the *-light you want to negate to create. From Radiants only Bondsmiths can produce whateverlight.
- Physical light = bunch of photons. Boring, they are their own antiparticle and do not even annihilate one another (they do not directly interact at all actually). Even non-Bondsmith Radiants can create it.
You said the could use it counter Radiants escaping to Cognitive realm, however unless they can do it as cheaply and easily as Radiants, Radiant could simply hop back to Physical and leave Compounder stranded. So if it is not easy as you are saying now, it is not really viable combat strategy.
Unless you are seriously saying that compounder could be more invested than a Vessel, than Nightblood would not be satiated after eating compounder. Eating Vessel did not make him enter food coma (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/452/#e14511).
TLR was also nearing limit of what atium compounding could do, so he would die soon afterwards anyway. And anyone with enough Stormlight (so probably near perpendicularity or inside Highstorm) could survive decapitation as well.
TLR also might not have been capable of opening perpendicularity, I think that is much simpler explanation.
Without fabrials all of Feruchemy is internal, so not group enhancing. The powers are not group enhancing, you can just make a tool and give it to every individual group member, that is no different from sharing food rations or oxygen. And even if you had unsealed metalminds for all these metals you would also need at least one compounder for each so that you would not run out fast.
F-Nicrosil stores internal investiture, not external investiture attacks. Even storing your own internal kinetic investiture is not confirmed, so storing direct investiture attacks is quite far from what we know. And you can easily work around it, just use Division on their clothing/surrounding or Soulcasting on air around them, they cannot take that investiture.
A-nicrosil would be good for team, I forgot about it. For offense, well you need to touch your opponent first, and your opponent might have armor which makes your power useless. And they have sword that is over 2 meters long, and can become a lance over 4 meters long, good luck getting through that without F-steel.
Surges work, and Stormlight trapped in gems still remains there. I think basic fabrials would remain working, but Surge fabrials would not. In fact since Navani seems surprised that in Cognitive realm Surge fabrials manifest as 'frozen' spren, suggesting that ordinary fabrials do not look that way. Shards would not manifest, so that is a disadvantage to Radiant, but they can still use Stormlight to manifest items, something Metalborn could not do.
That is why I did not suggest using Division, but other more defensive Surges (Cohesion, Tension, Illumination and Progression all of which can be used to help others without need for fabrials, unlike Scadrial applications which require unsealed metalminds to be group usable). Soulcasting is also very useful surge for cooperating, you can heal poisoning, provide food and basic materials.
The only Order that seems to favor honorable fights are Windrunners (remember that Jasnah directly advocated for genocide), and even then only when enemy is willing to play by the same rules. So unless Metalborn agreed to fight duel style (like Honorable Ones), no duels would take place.
If we go by what we see in books (in both cooperation and in combat) then Scadrial does not come off good, in Era 1 Mistborn rarely fight anyone on their level (other Mistborn, Inquisitors) and never fight in large battles in groups with other magic users (end of HoA notwithstanding). By Era 2 they are not really fighting a war at all, only in policing skirmishes, so again no protracted battles. Contrast with Roshar, where we see Shardbearers being used intelligently to break enemy lines (so used tactically), Edgedancers heal wounded in the middle of battle and by RoW Radiants are fighting in groups using group tactics (unless challenged by Honorable ones).
I am sorry but Rosharan tactics are medieval so even though they have had wars the pike line is entirely inadequate to use against more modern weapons and tactics. The more modern weapons and tactics from Scadrial are well beyond Rosharan experience. Even most Windrunners and Skybreakers could be wiped out by flack shells especially if they group together.
We will just need to agree to disagree that stormlight can be countered by the right frequency of light. Navani's experiments to create anti-light that succeeded were into wave mechanics not fluid mechanics.
I still think weight control will have an effect on gravity lashings, but I concede it might not have the effect I thought it did.
Not sure this WoB supports your point (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11569) given that Wax says that his physical abilities seem to increase to compensate for increased weight as shown by some of the feats he accomplishes. Oh and Sazed needed the extra weight to brace his pewter strength which also comes with extra mass. That makes me wonder if he could have stored some of that increased weight from his tapped strength into his Iron mind for later use. He might then be able to store some of the increased speed in steel from the interaction of greater strength and less weight. Of course he was no warrior so that may be why he never thought of that.
Compounding as described by Brandon allows exponential increases of investiture with nearly unlimited potential. Exponential increased quickly reach extreme quantities. In the case of the Cosmere the increase in investiture is stated as 10x. So 1:10, 10:100, 100:1,000, 1k:10k, 10k:100k, 100k:1M. In six compoundings you have 1Mx more investiture than you started with and that would take seconds to minutes to accomplish. How much time do you think it would take at that rate to pierce the Realms? Once you are near that degree of investiture maintaining it would be easy. I give it a day of compounding effort at most.
No one knows how Nicrosil-F works so my guess based on what we do know is as good as any. Again we will just need to agree to disagree because neither of us can prove the other wrong at this time. I am going on the assumption that any investiture of any kind applied to a Soulbearer becomes personal investiture. I view Soulbearers (to use blood terminology) as universal Receivers and Thug's as nearly universal donors of investiture. Pewter seems to be able to donate abilities to nearly all kinds of metal minds.
Sparkers paired with almost any allomancy that increases their perception and with pewter would enable a highly capable individual. The increased mental speed would enable quick evaluation and increased perception increased information to base responses on. With pewter where the person has enhances all around physical abilities you get nearly unbeatable martial artist/warrior and pewter during less active periods can be used to fill the metal mind for when it is needed. Steel would also create a multi useful pair. With bendalloy they might be able to accurately fire from a time bubble.
There are many other less obvious metal combinations that would provide support advantages in an actual system clash. I still view Nicrosil compounders like the Peter from Heroes of the Cosmere. Expose them to any investiture against them and they have that ability in spades to use moments later and they can enhance allies while overwhelming enemies. I don't expect to convince you about how Nicrosil might work. From what I hear we will see how it works in the next era as it sounds like one of the main characters perhaps the main character will use nicrosil.
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18 hours ago, Frustration said:
If you are refering to alloys those exist, if you mean actual corruption then no.
The only known alloy of Atium was malatium, but because it is a God metal there was the potential for 16 alloys including atium itself. Unfortunately after Hamony took over unless he makes more it is no longer an option except perhaps Marsh's supply.
16 hours ago, The Technovore said:Have an upvote for reading SOTD2 and coming to the same conclusion I did back in... page 34? Haha, if we're paying attention to actual Realmatics and Cosmere Lore, any actual S v R conflict would be a cold war or a stalemate, since without Radiants, Roshar can't expect to launch a successful invasion when the enemy has guns, and a Scadrian offensive would be crushed beneath the boot of Roshar's greater population, Thunderclasts, Fused, and Radiants. This is assuming that the Shards of both planets wouldn't take any actions to change the rules. In the canon lore we have so far, there's no reason to believe that they would. Thus, stalemate. But I digress.
I want to address these three things. Gravity doesn't slow or stop due to fluctuations in weight. In fact the force of gravity increases when an object's mass increases. However, I do believe we know that it takes more stormlight to affect heavier objects with Gravitation, so this speculation isn't far out, although I wouldn't bet money on it. Perhaps an F-Iron user could tap their weight heavily, moving faster as they do but draining the Lashing faster. However, weight would not affect Adhesion, as we know that it functions by fooling the spiritwebs of the two objects into believing they're one object, (I can't find the wob on this, maybe it's from the text of RoW? If someone wants to factcheck me that's fine) until the stormlight runs out. I'm not sure how significant weight change can affect Adhesion, unless you compounded to weigh several tons, then you might break a chunk out of the wall you're stuck to (lol). I'm not fully sure on Cohesion, we haven't see it used on another lifeform, only for stoneshaping and the Internally-focused one the Fused have. I'm not sure I see the connection, I don't think weight would be affecting Cohesion, since that weighs on the question of whether you can affect another body with it. (And if you can, that's kinda gross.)
Yea, this is common knowledge with Godmetals, that each godmetal can be alloyed firstly with any other godmetal, and secondly with any of the base 16 metals. There's a whole thread doing the math on how insane that is for mistborn, assuming they can get access to godmetals and know the appropriate alloy percentages. However, we KNOW that TLR wasn't doing anything to the Well or the Pits, except hiding away the Atium as it was produced, and waiting for the Well to "refill". I don't know that he couldn't do anything with them, perhaps if he had Nicrosil, but, it's heavily implied that he couldn't do anything with the Well until it refilled.
As for spikes and emotional allomancy, you're better off looking at SoS and BoM for the limits on that. Wax's uncle has three spikes in him at all times, and is careful not to place a fourth, otherwise Harmony would be able to take him over. Think about that. The actual Shard of Harmony couldn't touch him without four spikes. Three is a-okay. Bleeder was a-okay with a single spike, Harmony couldn't touch her until she got a second one. (Although I might have that wrong and it was just that Harmony needed a spike that wasn't trellium.) You could say "Oh well, Harmony's intent doesn't let him interfere--" but if it was his Intent that gets in the way, why does it suddenly go away at spike #4, rather than spike #5 or #6, or #1? Kandra are different from humans in that they're more susceptible to control, is a conclusion I'm drawing from this, and the main conclusion is that if the actual Shard of Harmony (or the Shard of Ruin, who had no Intent restrictions and couldn't control Vin or Spook beyond emotional manipulation even when they had a spike in them), then there's no way a lowly Mistborn with Duralumin could accomplish it.
Did you notice that the armored person was very heavy. That indicates to me that what ever method he used to leave Roshar the Stormlight became very heavy. I agree that it seems like there is a stalemate. Thinking about it I believe that Scadrian Magic lends itself to group cooperation, while Rosharn magic lends itself to individual combat. For example I view it like the contest between an Orca and a great white shark. Individually the great white is virtually the perfect aquatic predator and can likely take a single orca though not everytime, but orca as a pod are the apex predator capable of hunting anything in the ocean. Between Scadrial and Roshar population may be a factor, but we really don't know how the populations stack up because we only get a limited view of each and for now Scadrians have WMD's. Explosives, machine guns and such. The Radiants might be highly resistant but those in a normal army are not.
I found the Steel causing burn rates to increase in the feruchemical description of steel. So a Steelrunner can enhance any metal they are capable of burning potentially more than even a Duralumin burn would do. I was a bit pressed for time yesterday so couldn't think of where I saw it.
If a person is heavier then it indicates that gravity is acting on them more. Gravity lashings have a mathematical correlation to weight and greater weight manipulation requires more light. A single lash can be rendered zero g by doubling a persons weight and will expire sooner. You were right I was confusing cohesion and abrasion (I think that is what you were comparing), but cohesion might also be affected by changes in gravity. A suddenly weightless person wont sink into soft stone and suddenly much more heavy person might be able to crack any stone they have sunk into and since they have the physical abilities to handle the extreme weight and that is without any metal to pull on.
Elend's solution to keeping the Atium from Ruin was to burn it, so I presume TLR could have done the same with all the metals so no investiture pools or mines could collect. Even if he couldn't have done it himself he could have fast tracked Scadrian metal arts into science that burns it to do that.
Kondra with only 2 spikes could be controlled by a sufficiently powerful emotion allomancer or group of them though in era 2 and beyond you might want a nicroburst in the team to have sufficient power. Emotional allomancy is also particularly effective against broken or unbalanced people. Not infallible. Paalm only had one spike which is why Wax shooting her with another worked. Her allomancy came from the fact it was Trellium. I am also drawing from how Lord Venture reacted to Vin Rioting and Soothing him massively.
11 hours ago, therunner said:And I thank you the same.
While actively burning they Scadrians do have some investiture, but even than it is per Brandon almost none (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/444/#e14328), while Rosharans have both the direct connection to spren (which still does not count for too much) and also are more invested than Scadrians when they hold stormlight.
In the WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623) Brandon never talks about anti-light, only about anti-investiture, and how it is important resource for Cosmere going forward. Second, Brandon likes to stick to basic principles of real world physics (you cannot get something for nothing, action-reaction, etc.) so to how anti-particles only for some, but not all investiture (when all investiture is the same, outside of 'charge' of Shard) does not make sense at all. Ultimately, all investiture comes from Adonalsium, so if some can have anti-investiture, all kinds can.
To create anti-light you need
- Vacuum (Scadrial can get this)
- Light of the shard you want to negate (Scadrial will have great difficulty getting this)
- Knowledge of nature of investiture (Scadrial yet does not have this, they know very little of Realmatics compared to other worlds)
- Basic knowledge of waves (Scadrial has this, or should have)
- Intent (Scadrial can have this)
If we are considering Scadrial going to war against Roshar, they have very little opportunities to gather Storm/Void/Life-light (and no technology to draw it away and store it, only to dissipate it via chromium) so they could not make anti-light even if they had Realmatic knowledge of how to do so. They could try to steal infused gems, but depending on travel time light might dissipate before it would do anything useful.
The faster burning with F-steel is in Coppermind, and the linked WoB says pretty much the same thing (with the additional information of likening it to Bendalloy bubble). I think that they would burn faster relative to other people around F-steel user, but the metal would not have increased effect (like when you are flaring) because to the F-steel user it still seems the same as he is also sped up.
Flaring steel/iron (i.e. faster burning) does not change your range or improve your metal sense, it only changes with how much force you can push, so F-steel would not help with range/sense and in my opinion also not with strenght.
F-Iron would definitely help when it comes to anchoring, the weight of allomancer is important when pushing/pulling. However, the weight of allomancer has nothing to do with range/sense, and only indirectly with power (there being more mass behind the push).
I am not sure if Intent would be needed, they do not have powers that would allow them to create perpendicularities (like Dalinar or people with Surge of Transportation). Compounders would have to brute force it by putting enough investiture in one place to forcibly pierce the realms, which is something we have never seen anyone do, as Dalinar might have used his Surges somehow (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11492), and Elsecallers/Willshapers have power explicitly designed to do this.
In addition, even the most invested object in Cosmere (Nightblood) is not invested enough to open/be perpendicularity, and I just do not think even Compounders could easily attain such levels of Investiture (as Brandon feels limitation are more interesting than strengths when it comes to magic).
Also Lord Ruler should have knowledge necessary, as remembering 'put a lot of magic fuel in one place to travel to other realms' is not that difficult and he did Ascend temporarily.
Gravitational acceleration is unaffected by mass of object being accelerated, so if you put a single lashing on a person, and then that person becomes twice as heavy they are still lashed with single lashing (and are still accelerated exactly the same way). It would make the lashing wear of faster, but it would still be there and it would still be equally strong.
Cohesion cannot be applied to humans, so you can only use it on terrain/objects, and there it would work fine (and in fact be very useful when setting traps for Iron compounder).
Adhesion would probably still work, as it works more on spiritual principles (and most materials would break themselves first before disrupting the lashing, per Ars Arcanum), so it would most likely just run out faster again (but maybe not, I am not sure if we have seen Full Lashing applied to heavy objects).
Well of Ascension is a tool designed by Leras to help someone temporarily Ascend. It can seemingly be used only when it refills, not sooner (otherwise Lord Ruler would not have to wait full 1024 years to undo his mistakes, 1023 year and 6 months would be surely enough), so he would not be able to drain it or the pits.
Using god metals to create new metals is known and real possibility. (although for off-world metals metalborn would need some Connection to the Shard in question before using the god metal or its alloys), some WoBs (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/9/#e7624 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/398/#e13226 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e5905 ) There is still question of who could use such metals, if it would be only Full Feruchemists and Mistborn, or if there is a way to give ability to use these metals to others as well (after all there are no Mistings/Ferrings of these godmetal alloys, Leras had to manually modify Allomancy to allow Atium mistings).
Well, Zane would have also been burning Copper so he would be immune anyway. And TLR is really not a good example, he was Fullborn and a Sliver, not your everyday compounder.
You are also forgetting that Radiant in plate would be completely shielded from emotional allomancy, so it is useful only against those on 3rd Oath. For Singers, the spren in their gemhearts would probably help override emotional manipulation because Rhythms do act on emotions as well.
In am not sure if I see how Scadrian abilities are more suited for work in groups, the only powers they have that can help others (discounting fabrials) are Rioting/Soothing to bolster morale, Bendalloy to help quickly reposition and Cadmiun to help wait (but its usage could be risky). Unkeyed/Unsealed metalminds would be useful when used in conjuction with a Compounder to provide various attributes as needed, so those would help.
On the other hand, Radiants can use Tension to improve non-invested armor/weapons, Cohesion+Tension to manipulate terrain (providing advantage to their allies), Gravitation for transportation, Progression to heal non-invested allies and Illumination to bolster allies (like Shallan did). This is all before taking into account fabrials or surge fabrials.
I personally see it that in far future Scadrial is more mercantile power, as they have the most advanced non-magical tech which is usable by anyone without need for special fuel. This gives them great economical power. Roshar on the other hand I think would be more martially oriented I think. As a result I think that while martially future Roshar could beat future Scadrial on their own, Scadrial's economic advantage gives them allies (or vasalls) to call upon. It would also not make much sense for Roshar to go in direct war as the economic cost would be too great.
Brandon seems to have come up with aluminum as a science answer to investiture everywhere and anti-light as a specific counter to Fused and Radiants given their near un-killability. With Bronze allomancy and the appropriate science discovering Radiant Kryptonite anti-light would be simple and potentially obvious. Lasers with the right frequency and rythmic pulse would anihilate Radiants and Fused. Bronze mistings could sense that. Scadrial doesn't need the same understanding of realmatics to create anti-light just an understanding of wave mechanics once they realize that Rosharan powers are fueled by light. White sand is invested by sun light. For now Scadrial hasn't reached that level of Tech but they do know to use aluminum just like the Fused do to counter investiture in their weapons. Shardplate may not protect Radiants completely from Aluminum since the Fused use it and haven't lost to the Radiants yet even though in the past other Radiants had Shardplate.
F-steel effect on allomancy would be like Duralumin and Vin's range when burning Duralumin was greater as shown with her steel jump across the valley. When she burned both D&S she could detect more metal at a distance. With more power comes more range. The limit would be a sufficient anchor to use that additional pushing power and the physical strain on the body. Vin had pewter to counter some of that strain.
I did say the wall would probably break because of the increased weight though if the person were patient they might run the stormlight out faster.
I never said it would be easy for a compounder to open a perpendicularity only potentially possible. Nightblood might become satiated before consuming all the investiture from a compounder. We only have 2 examples of compounders, TLR and Miles. TLR extended his life 1,000 years and could dominate whole crowds of thousands with just his presence. Both he and Miles were all but un-killable capable of even surviving decapitation. TLR may not have even tried to open a Perpendicularity because his purpose was to protect the world from Ruin at his core.
Other group enhancing metal arts are F-copper, F-zinc, Bronze, Tin, Chromium, Nicrosil, F-Duralumin, Electrum, and F-gold, and compounds of most of these. Nicrosil compounders might be particularly useful in a team. Potentially they could store any investiture based attack against them and compound it. The could also enhance any team members powers, and finally over charge any enemy's powers to overwhelm and drain them. They might almost be like Peter from Heroes. Imagine if an edgedancer healed them and they stored some of that to compound and use later. Of course even Terrismen aren't sure how Nicrosil works so that is me projecting possibilities.
I also view Scadrian's like the Federation and Rosharan's like the Klingon.
No I didn't forget that Shardplate blocks emotional allomancy I staged it in the CR where there are no shards even for upper oaths. I am not sure how well fabrials would work their either. Medallions would work since they don't rely on Spren. I think Hemalurgy even though it is a metal art is a bad idea. Though hemalurgy might end up being the Scadrian cyborg equivalent or used in conjunction with being a cyborg.
I see many Rosharan powers being being used to their utmost to be hazardous to any allies on the field. Division used to the extreme could hurt their individual soldiers as much as the enemy for example. In addition Rosharan's honor encourages duels, champions, and individual combat, where most of what we have seen from Scadrial is crews, partners, and gangs working together. I think it is almost a mindset thing as much as a power thing. Yes there are powers from both that work better in groups and or individually, but I think their cultural mindsets incline them one way or the other. All the Rosharan powers you mentioned seem to be used individually, one on one or like with gravitation in small groups. We also haven't seen many Savant effects, but some of the most severe were a soulcaster turning to smoke or vines growing out of another one. Of course the savant affect with Radiants and Metalborn takes longer.
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On 4/26/2021 at 7:37 AM, Bzhydack said:
Basicly, ther is 16 Shards, but only 10 Surges. Some would not have one.
About emotions... Illumination comes to mind.
But Sibling is refering OathGate Spren as their Children, and they are talking about them as Father. Also, Surge Fabrials were around before Recreance (Dalinar's Vision).
Modern Rosharan's don't yet know how to make surge fabrials like soulcasters and oathgates as of RoW. They now know what they were made of. You could say Shardplate is another fabrial and so is a shardblade since surge fabrials might have been formed in a similar fashion.
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On 4/24/2021 at 4:05 PM, therunner said:
While they are innately invested, so are Rosharans (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/224/#e6881), and both are less than Nalthians (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3458). Metal is used as conduit to spiritual realm and allomancy is fueled by Preservation (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270/#e7708 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270/#e8028), not to unlock 'innate investiture' of Scadrians. Now all metallic arts are powered by Harmony, although in Feruchemy the role is mainly as facilitator of transfer.
Since anti-light is just particular form of anti-investiture, it is quite clear that investiture of other Shards will be susceptible to same attack vector, altought manufacturing process might differ. Also this WoB suggests that anti-investiture will play a large role in future of Cosmere (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623) which would not make much sense if it was so Shard specific as you suggest.
It seems I mixed up WoBs on weakening of allomancy (which satures by Era 3 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10873) together with WoB on frequency of births (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/101/#e882). I was unable to find anything that would suggest that allomancy/feruchemy will continue to become more prevalent however, would you mind linking that WoB?
It still happens, but Sazed changed it somehow (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/198/#e4242). We have no other info as far as I know.
Radiant on 3rd Oath flew across entire continent just with the light they could carry, that is not too bad. Add in two more oaths + Plate catching leftovers and you have quite efficient system.
Scadrians are not restricted by Oaths true, they are instead restricted by their inborn potential (unless we resort to Hemalurgy, but you cannot add more than 2 spikes without opening yourself up to shardic influence). Each subsequent generation of allomancer (and possibly feruchemists as well) is weaker than the one before up until some saturation level. You might breed some to be more powerful (Vin was one such example), but vast majority will be weaker than any Misting seen in Era 1.
Dead plate heals, that is why it is sucking up stormlight so fast. In deadplate light is needed to both maintain basic function and to heal damaged sections.
Living plate also heals (seen in Jasnah chapter in RoW), and seemingly either does not require stormlight to operate or requires tiny amounts (again Jasnah chapter in RoW). It would make sense to me if Radiant could deny light to plate, as they are in control of it, but we have not seen such yet.
So, light =/= light. Stormlight/Voidlight/Towerlight/Lifelight are all gaseous manifastations of investiture, not actual photons of light. Lasers will not help Scadrians at all in this, laser are just ordinary bunch of photons, not pure shardic investiture. If lasers/normal light could work that way then Lightweavers/Truthwatchers can provide Stormlight on demand, which they clearly cannot.
I still doubt feasibility of even compounder actually forming perpendicularity, no feats of compounding come even close to that.
It would not counter the lashing, it would just make it deplete faster. I guess you could call that countering, but to me counter implies something which negates it, not something that just makes it go away faster.
I do not understand what you meant by your second sentence.
Why would they have more range? Their allomantic power is still the same, ergo their range is still the same. Again I doubt that actually making a perpendicularity is feasible for compounder outside of theory. Even if they could do it, it would be a trick they could use only a few times before running out of stores, since compounding takes time.
No. Sazed when tapping so much f-pewter that per his words he was worried about his skin splitting open and stated he would be unable to walk (WoA), had trouble overpowering one 11 feet tall Koloss. So no rivaling greatshells for them, that is complete fantasy, and also no unmatched strength. While they probably could match shardplate strength, they would be slower and more cumbersome + big target for shardblade.
At Mach 0.6 neck muscles are not strong enough to keep your head straight, so yeah it is less than Mach 1. Air friction/compression starts becoming problematic around Mach 1 though, I would estimate, just due to adiabtic heating.
Steel speed enhancing steel pushes is your conjecture, one I disagree with. I already wrote this beforehand, but to summarize, Brandon compares F-Steel burn rate to Bendalloy bubble (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402/#e13501), however people pushing from inside the bubble are not stronger than usual, ergo F-steel would not make your pushes stronger.
And the wounds he healed (EDIT: Short of decapitation) are well withing scope of stormlight healing, so not really that insane feats. There is no evidence that TLR could open up perpendicularity, and he was not a splinter, he was a sliver. And being sliver means he had power once, but now no longer has it.
He could have stayed Ruin possibly for another millenium, but he could not fill well of ascension that was far beyond his abilities even though he is Fullborn.
They are no more broken than Vin was, or Zane.
That is not particularly useful statement. I can easily turn it around: 'Since normal person can kill mistborn, or any metalborn without f-gold, Radiant will have even easier time doing so.' It is true, but far too reductive a statement.
Well you previously made similarly insulting comments, so I simply took this one at face value.
If we stay with Feruchemy and Allomancy, than outside of few compounders most combinations are useless, ordinary Mistborn (without atium) will more often than not lose to Windrunner on 3rd oath in open battle (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4/#e1432 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35/#e5018 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4/#e4854), most Twinborns (pretty much all outside of steeltwins, or generally those with F-steel and some with F-gold) are strictly worse combatants than mistborn. Hence most Twinborn are going to lose against even midling Radiant. Simply put, without F-steel they cannot avoid getting hit, and without F-gold they cannot heal. Then you can start giving them guns to even the odds, but they still need a way to either move faster or avoid Radiant's attacks or they are dead.
While I did not bring up those Fused and regals you mention, I did bring up both Stormform and Warform parshendi in my reply to Publius. I also went though all Radiants and tried to see how they could use their specific surges against mistborn. You reacted to neither of those.
For starters it would be nice if you could stop presenting yourself as this lone voice of dissent trying to shake up complacent thread contributors to action. Second, instead of mention you saw WoB, link it please.
That aluminum is (Bondsmithing+Hemalurgy)x9000 speculation is quite baseless, or splitting abilities of A-pewter into different nicrosilminds. That F-steel increases strength of steelpushes due to increase in mass was also quite baseless, and I do not think you actually admitted you were wrong on physics of that, you just stopped talking about it (around page 42.
You also made many other mistakes (light (investiture) =\= light (photons), burning=\= allomantic burning, changing names of Surges, aluminum negating investiture when physically burning etc.) so it can be a bit difficult to recognize a valid point.
Coppermind is still a secondary source, and since primary sources (books, WoBs on arcanum https://wob.coppermind.net/) can be checked, in case of WoB quite easily it is far better to use that than coppermind.
Let me say first thanks for your patience.
Your right there are degrees of investiture and everyone has some degree at least so far as the spark of life. Metal opens the innate investiture beyond the spark of life for Scadrians after snapping, though as you noticed it seems to have changed Era 2, and Rosharan's connect to more than spark of life investiture by bonding a spren connecting to the Shard in specific ways.
Anti-Investiture in any other form except Roshar has not been confirmed and In the WoB you linked Brandon said one of the reasons for making Anti-Light was to balance the scales and give permanent death to Rosharan's specifically. With the right frequency and the right rythm anyone can create the anti-light even scientifically. It still obeys the laws of waves.
I don't remember and couldn't find what I read about increased population of metalborn or the increased buring of steel. I found them while investigating one of the responses to my posts. The steel burning faster was in a trivia section I think and it is possible it has since been edited out. Though it might have been from one of the hundreds of WoB's I have read since entering this thread.
Presuming, even though I can't find it right now, that a Steel compounder twin can burn Steel faster as one of the side benefits they would have more power which would manifest as potentially more range of both sense and affect, and Iron compounder because their power is linked with their weight they also will have more potential power available for increased range and obviously need less of an anchor to do more. In both cases the majority of power would at some point go toward increased duration at relatively high force. I really don't want to argue how fast a Steel compounder could run beyond very fast or and how heavy an Iron compounder could be beyond extremely heavy both for very extended periods when necessary.
Compounders by the nature of their nearly unlimited investiture have the potential to create perpendicularities, but as Brandon said it would take very extreme investiture to accomplish this and would probably require intent. Since We have barely seen compounders and at least one example didn't even know what a perpendicularity was or that it was a possiblility that easily explains why it hasn't been accomplished to our knowledge so far. Neither modern allomancy or feruchemy alone has this potential.
I think from what I have read that mistings and ferings are the saturation level with more power when combined to twin and ultimate as compounders going forward.
A single lashing for 100kg person would be a half lash for a 200kg person so if a person could control their weight near infinitely they could counter any amount of Lashing. Cohesion and Adhesion would also be affected by weight changes though not as obviously as Lashings.
I was thinking the TLR might have been able to constantly drain the well of assention and the pits by using more of his investiture. Atium as a God metal could also have been corrupted by other metals to make a whole new set of allomantic metals and binding into usability by Ruin. That was what I meant. Of course could just be another of my more extreme ideas that you guys hate.
Vin never thought of trying emotional allomancy on Zane even though it might have worked. Look what happened to the people when TLR came out. Emotional allomance could be a very powerful weapon if used correctly. It just isn't one people think about for combat. It is also less predictable than a physical attack.
There are hundreds of WoB's that i have seen and researched. Generally when someone tells me that they have seen something I take it as fact, Notice I rarely ask for reference, because I know re-finding something can be difficult. Even those links shared by many of your and by me are not interpreted the same by each of us and what one person thinks supports their argument another person doesn't. In the beginning when one of you said this is the way it is I took it as according to what you have read that is your interpretation, but it seems to me as if I haven't been given the same latitude in the super majority of cases. That as much as anything has been frustrating.
I finally read SotD 2 and from my interpretation of the 2 groups I see Scadrian's (the ones above) and Rosharan's (the individual with the seeming ShardLaser) as at a seeming deadlock in their conflict. I get the impression after thinking about it as Orca vs Shark or Wolves vs Bear in terms of contests. It seems that Rosharan's excel at single combat, but may not be a match for the combined talents of Scadrian's. Scadrian abilities may work more effectively in groups and with some exceptions are not good in individual combat, and Rosharans are most effective individually and with some exceptions are not good in groups. Of course It could be that it was an Ire that was in the armor, since we don't know much about them yet and we never saw its face. If it was a Radiant it seems like it was a Skybreaker. The conclusion I draw from this scene from SotD 2 is that Scadrian's and Rosharan's are at a near deadlock in power even if it isn't obvious to most yet.
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On 4/24/2021 at 3:27 PM, Orlionra said:
How could I have forgotten about Emperor's Soul?!
Yeah, Emperor's Soul is arguably the best thing Sanderson has written, and you don't have to read anything else beforehand! It's the very rare Sanderson Standalone! (Almost all the other "standalones" are clearly part 1 of a multipart story)
Its one of the reasons I recomended Arcanum unbound that and edgedancer.
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20 hours ago, Orlionra said:
Elantris will eventually become important again, but honestly focus on Mistborn first (Era 1 then Era 2)
I actually liked Emperors Soul better than Elantris and it is also on Sel.
51 minutes ago, Kaponkie said:No problem that makes perfect sense.
Honestly turn of the century just makes it even better for me
Once you finishe the Cosmere the Reconners are enjoyable if you like a twist on superheroes. It starts with Steelheart. Legion from my perspective shadows Shallon. As for the Alcatraz series I haven't laughed so much since I read Xanth.
I plan to start Skyward series soon, perhaps I will read white sand first there isn't an audio version yet though.
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20 hours ago, therunner said:
Anti-investiture is general, just as tones are. So even Scadrians are susceptible to it, altough since they contain such investiture only when burning/tapping/storing they are susceptible shorter amounts of time.
So,
- Scadrians are no more invested than other humans in Cosmere. In fact Nalthians are more invested. Scadrian when burning metals/tapping becomes more invested for the duration of the burn/tap, but even then they are less invested than Radiant with Stormlight.
- Birth rates of both ferring and misting have become saturated per WoBs, i.e. their incidence in population will not continue to grow.
- Metal is not key for Scadrians innate investiture, just a key to access Preservation/Harmonies investiture from spiritual realm (analogy to Sel, metal=Aon, Preservation investiture=Dor)
- Being broken is prerequisite even for metalic arts (see snapping). Also protagonists of SA are bit of outliers, compare Kaladin with Lopen.
- Radiants become increasingly better at holding light as they progress.
- We have seen very little of shardplate so far, but in principle Radiant might be able to deny it healing for a short while.
- For anti-stormlight grenades you would first need a way to produce light, which Scadrians do not have.
- I think for resistence against heat based attacks Brass ferring would suffice, they could simply store excess heat, no need for compounding.
- Iron compounder would be just as affected by gravitation as anyone else, all the doubling of their mass would do is that the lashing would wear off faster (gravitational acceleration upon object does not depend on the objects mass). Cohesion however would be deadly for him, just make the ground less cohesive and watch him fall, there their weight would work against them. You mistook Cohesion and Abrasion.
- You do not need compounders to attack fabrials, ordinary steel and iron would do. However, you would first have to get close enough to fabrial so that you can push/pull, and Roshar has suppressor fabrials.
- Pewter compounders are also limited in how much they can tap if they want to remain mobile, so far from near limitless. Even Sazed reached mobility limit of pewter.
Iron compounder, maybe.
Steel compounder definitely not before wind resistance and friction become issue. Marasis Mach 10 movement is far beyond where both friction and compression become issues, and there was no perpendicularity there.
In general I think the issue with compounders and perpendicularity is that you attach such to a feat (become stellar object/move at some speed), however since tapping is unlimited even ordinary Feruchemsit can reach such feats even if only for a short time. What you need is large amount of stored attribute inside the metalmind to form perpendicularity (or tap all that attribute at once), and since even BoM are less invested than shardblades (not to mention Nightblood, who does not seem to be perpendicularity) this means that even for compounders this is a very difficult goal. Possible in principle, but not very realistic.
I think this is uncalled for, both the snark and personal attacks.
While in principle compounder could get enough investiture to create perpendicularity, I think it is telling that we have seen none do so, i.e. it is technically possible, but that does not make it realistic. Per WoBs soulcasting can destroy shardplates (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6254), but it does not make sense to assume that any Radiant with Transformation could simply soulcast away metalminds as it would require inordinate amount of power (however still far less than soulcasting shardplate).
Also, neither zinc nor brass compounder would 'crush' Radiant in Cognitive Realm, Radiant would still presumably have stormlight in them which should provide at least some protective effects and emotional allomancy alone will not give compoounder advantage. Also Radiant will still have their surges and are physically enhanced by stormlight.
From what I have read Scadrians are innately invested and metal unlocks that investiture. Rosharans are not innately invested and Spren are the key to open their investiture which is then powered by Light (storm, void, life).
Though it might be speculated that all forms of investiture may have an anti form it has not been confirmed and all of you seemed very offended when I speculated so for now my point stands that only Rosharans are confirmed to be affected by anti-investiture.
I also read in the WoB's that metal arts will become more prevalent on Scadrial within the population, and have hit roughly their baseline power level during alloy period.
Snapping was required for Era 1 mistborn, but I am not sure during Era 2 I think it has changed.
Yeah Radiants become increasingly more efficient with stormlight, but are still inefficiant containers of it even so. Scadrians also become increasingly more proficient with their power as well, but are not restrained on how powerful they can become or how they use those powers by oaths.
Again you are speculating on Shardplate. Dead plate leaks and does not heal eventually shattering. Presumably living plate heals, but requires stormlight to do so. Like when Kal was fighting with a shardhelmet on his hand his stormlight healed it until it ran out.
Scadrians can't yet produce light, but it is only a matter of time before they have lasers using science. With the right tuning they could kill permanently any Rosharan spren.
Your right that you only need to be a brass fering to be resistant to heat based attacks, but with compounding they could have access to perpendicularities (Near infinite investiture can do that even if it does take the form of heat) and would make it more convenient to operate in a wider range of environments especially sub-zero.
More massive objects require more stromlight to lash. Once lashed a sufficient increase in weight would counter the lashing. No additional weight would affect both adhesion and cohesion.
Iron and steel compounders would have potentially much more range so no you don't need them but they would be more effective both in range and scale. Again compounding also potentially gives access to perpendicularities taking away some potential Rosharan advantages.
Pewter compounders would definitely want to use very flexible clothing, but with enough ferichemical strength they would be massive and a single strike would be devastating to almost anyone. They might rival great shells for size. You are right that they would give up maneuverability for shear power. Nearly a limitless supply of strength in both magnitude and or duration. They could match and or exceed shardbearer level strength. Most people (execept Dalinar) have been shown to be relatively clumsy in plate, so they also give up a degree of maneuverability for power.
At what speed and duration is wind resistance or air friction dangerous to health? Experiments show it is greater than Mach 1. In addition Steel speed also enhances steel burn rates potentially so much that steel pushes are greater than those achieved by Duralumin Steel pushes. That means armor piercing metal projectiles against targets even when the metal is relatively soft. Air friction would actually help with those projectiles since they could potentially be very hot as well.
Compounding allows for the near infinite shard infusion of Feruchemical powers giving both much greater achievable magnitude and duration. Compounders have nearly unlimited potential in at least one ability. Feruchemy alone is always limited by how much and how long a person stores. Wax stores at about 25% whenever he is awake so 20 kg/hr for 16 hours so he can tap 20 kg/hr for 16 hours or compress it to approximately 40 kg/hr for 6 hours. A compounder could store 20 kg in 1 hours and turn that into being able to tap 200 kg for the next hour or 20 kg for the next 10 hours or some combination like 100 kg for 5 hours without loss. Compound again and the magnitude or amount of time is 10 times more. It wont take long before he can be whatever weight he wants to for any length of time and he would reap the benefits of the greater weight on his allomancy. But Wax can't actually do that since he is a Steel allomancer so is limited to storing only his own weight.
We have only seen one compounder and he was always using his to heal from extreme wounds. TLR was one as well but he mostly compounded Atium for extended life and was probably already able to create a perpendicularity at will since he was a splinter. What you really need to ask is if he could have indefinitely delayed Ruin and Filling the well of Assention by using more metal arts.
I was implying that Brass and Zinc might be particularly effective against Radiants since most we have seen are broken and vulnerable to emotional distress. Even stormlight doesn't seem to be enough to protect them fully. You only need to incapacitate the Radiant long enough inflict critical injuries or bind them.
I notice that you both missed the wink in my comment about imagination, but what was I suppose to think. There were no new ideas coming out on a topic that has barely been scratched. It was Rosharan magic vs Scadrian magic not Radiants vs Allomancers. there are literally thousands of possible combinations of powers and resonances for metal arts and hundreds of possible variations of Rosharan surges, but all you seem to be saying is Radiants can heal well and have highly effective armor and weapons oh and some radiants can fly. Yes there has been some little discussion of rock walls, and soulcasting, but so much left ignored. There are regals which can pop up out of the ground to attack their enemy, and both Radiants and Regals who can immitate nearly anyone to get the drop on their target. Slick a boulder and have it slide down the hill at your target. This is what I mean by no imagination. You all (not literal) seem to say to me that can't be done but never really present potentially amazing possible confrontations involving all the powers incredible potential. So I tease, embarrass, prod, cajole, use sarcasm and facts, I even use sources though even that gets ridiculed. What do you want?
18 hours ago, Frustration said:Nalthis is a powerhouse though, esspecially if type IV commands got out,
And The Aether world will be a player
1. I was refering to using stormlight to function
2.A Normal person with a hammer is only enough after several minutes of beating.
You know in the debate community it's seen as a sign that you're losing when you start attacking the other person instead of their argument.
And Several people disagree with me and where not "scared off" if you think that you have a really low opinion of them. @Bzhydack @Enter a username and even people like @The Technovore and @Bigmikey357 and others disagree with me, but we've had pleasant conversation and debate over various points, what set's you apart is that you argue with baseless speculation and I feel the need to correct you.
And by now the discussion should be over threads do not normally last at this activity level for this long.
That WoB says nothing about commpounders this Wob
TheFulgid
Could you Invest... Could you use a nicrosil metalmind to Invest the sort of Investiture enough that you could open a Perpendicularity up to the Cognitive Realm?
Brandon Sanderson
So, I'll just say it this way. Enough concentrated Investiture in one point is going to pierce the Realms, no matter what form it takes.
TheFulgid
...So, it doesn't have to be a nicrosil metalmind.
Brandon Sanderson
No.
TheFulgid
Okay... But it could be?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes. That is theoretically possible.
Would have helpped you case better, but that's besides the point being a comppounder is irrelivent, Dalinar isn't a commpounder but he has a perpendicualrity on speedial, Jasnah and other Elsecallers and Willshapers can make them, but they can't compound. Marasi tapped everything in the Bands at once, and depleted it at an increadible rate but she didn't cause a perpendicularity(though she might have been close) and that was a creation of a Fullborn, metalminds so full they were indistinguishable from aluminum, that isn't something that will be made every other year on Scandrial.
You assume that you are the only one here with ideas, which is not the case, and is thus ego.
Compounder do not have near infinate investiture, they have the ability to store investiture and use it later, they don't have any more raw power than any other allomancer.
TRL lied about his healing powers.
Transportation is a lot easier than most other meathods, and Brandon says making a perpendicularity requires litteral tons of investiture, that is something along the lines of years of compounding burnt away in an instant, which is so inneficeint it would be better to just give up on the CR entirly.
Questioner
Is there any way it's possible that somebody could have gotten to the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial without the Well of Ascension?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes.
Questioner
And can we know how?
Brandon Sanderson
Well, how many Shardpools would Scadrial have?
Questioner
Two, so the Pits of Hathsin would be so? That's what I theorized.
Brandon Sanderson
Yes. So you've adopted the term "Shardpool". That was never really my term, but I've started using it. What happens with a perpendicularity is large concentrations of Investiture, particularly purely attuned to one of the Shards, will create an access point. You've seen another one in--
Questioner
Yeah, yeah I know these.
Brandon Sanderson
You know which one I'm referencing?
Questioner
Yes.
Brandon Sanderson
That you didn't see a Pool from?
Questioner
Oh wait--
Brandon Sanderson
Okay, he knows, so… We'll move on. *general outcry* Okay, fine. Umm, at the end of Words of Radiance.
Argent
There has to be one there because Jasnah has to leave somehow, right?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, but Honor's Perpendicularity moves.
Questioner
Woah...so...Highstorm?
Brandon Sanderson
*makes non-committal noises*
Questioner 2
Kind of related to that, I don't know if this is a RAFO kind of question, but you call them perpendicularities, are we going to see this sort of thing created? Could there be, like--
Brandon Sanderson
Yeah, perpendicularities can be created. You'd need a lot of Investiture, right? You'd need a ton of Investiture. But, basically what Jasnah does is create a little mini perpendicularity, right? And slips herself into the Cognitive Realm.
Questioner 2
So it's just a question of skill, not a question of--
Brandon Sanderson
Yeah. It's hard to pull off, but some of the powers are built to do it.
And even without plate they still have stormlight which will insulate them, and they have a base level of investiture just natuarally.
And on top of that only the most volitile of Radiants, and probably with an exceptionally good soother/Rioter would you get the results you want.
And I'm assuming that last bit is an insult.
Sel if they could overcome their location limit would be a major player, just like Roshar will be once they overcome their planet bond restriction.
If the Radiant is out of stormlight they probably have no plate, and dead plate out of stormlight does stop functioning. So enough damage removes any plate.
Yes but if a normal person can damage plate someone with metal arts has even more potential to do so, just not all in the same way.
You mean like you have been attacking me from the beginning? Or at least that is how it has seemed to me since the beginning. Only recently have I pushed back at you. You like to critique ideas but from my perspective don't have many of your own.
My speculation has never been baseless and when one of you has actually shown me something that I feel reasonably proves me wrong I have admitted it. Just because you disagree with my source doesn't make my statement baseless. You like to use the word baseless when you disagree not because it is a fact. You may notice that I have been much less abrasive to those you mentioned than to you and there is a reason for that though toward the end your name proved true for me and I became more impatient with them as well. Even so I have seen you be equally dismissive of their argument until they didn't think it worth the effort to continue to argue with you.
It is not really over because there is still much more to discuss within the topic as I stated. If you didn't think so why did you respond to my post? If you thought it was all discussed you should have ignored my post, but you didn't why is that?
No compounders by definition have near limitless potential for investiture in at least one thing so the WoB didn't need to mention them. Other WoB's have mentioned compounding and Perpendicularities.
There are so many other parts and powers to both systems that this thread has ignored that it is mind blowing that you could think this topic has been exhausted. By the way the coppermind appears to be the current distillation of the many and varied WoB's so dismissing it seems disingenuous of you when it contradicts what you think.
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48 minutes ago, Frustration said:
Has yet to be seen.
Any normal person would die long before they became a problem.
The only one confirmed is F-Nicrocil and if it were easy Marasi would have done it with the bands, so it's not a feasible option.
We were letting the thread die because it has gone on for almost half a year and we're done with this conversation.
Also tone down the ego.
Scadrial is not neccesarily alone in that conflict, nor do we know if it has come to war yet.
How shardplate works has been seen. It magnifies physical abilities like speed, strength, and agility and it absorbs physical and invested damage, but a regular hammer weilded by a normal person can cause enough damage to make it leak.
It really doesn't matter if a normal person would die before that is a problem because someone with Scadrian Magic is not a normal person.
Yeah I get it you ran out of imagination and scared away anyone who would disagree with you so you thought the discussion was over. ;-)
Nicrosil is not the only possibility any compounder could acheive it. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/314-salt-lake-city-signing/#e8920 Or coppermind Investiture. Marisi wasn't a compounder.
This thread assumes war. ROW indicates there are other involved Shards.
Ego? I am not sure you have any room to talk! Facts are not ego even if you disagree with them.
51 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:Go to your profile l, click edit profile ( the little pencil in the right hand corner) then press ‘member title’
I think this has to do with the fact that Scadrial never really is seen using all their capabilities, we see they have stuff but they rarely use it to its full extent. Like we’ve never seen a active compounder attack someone.
The excerpt? It’s on Arcanum under RoW release party
Thanks I finally figured out the title.
I would agree that we haven't really seen martial applications from the Mistborn books, but with Twinborn compounders we have individuals who can have near unlimited power in limited uses. Miles could likely out heal even 5th ideal radiants and was all but immortal with regard to damage and injury. TLR is the only other compounder we have seen and he could heal from almost anything and was 1,000 years old. If he had compounded more metals he really could have been invincible, but he didn't. Even regular twins can have enormous potential power depending on what the goal is.
One thing I discovered over the weekend was that any sufficient amount of investiture will create a perpendicularity so since compounders can have nearly unlimited investiture in their metal art each and everyone has the potential to create a perpendicularity regardless what metal art they use. So much for using transportation to escape to the cognitive realm and Metal arts work everywhere in the Cosmere. I could see a Zinc or Brass compounder crush a Radiant in the Cognitive realm with emotional Allomancy since the Radiant would be without their plate to shield them. Brass compounders might want to be careful since they might incinerate before the perpendicularity opens, unless they have some way to direct the heat away from them. notice the link to Frustration.
Thanks for the reference.
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27 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:
Highlight a specific part. Then a quote button will appear.
Or you can quote the whole thing and then delete the words you don’t want
I think that’s what your asking
Does that work when you have multi quoted? Can you highlight part of the quote after using the multi quote within the response? People kept telling me to stop double posting and to use the multi-quote.
Oh and the Title under your name, Rosharan Worldhopper how do you do that? Never mind i finally figured it out.
To be honest I got a little frustrated with this topic since it seemed like most of the posts skewed toward Roshar and didn't want to speculate on how Scadrial might have more than a passing chance if any chance at all. Thanks for the SoD2 spoilers. Where do I find them?
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2 minutes ago, Kaponkie said:
Awesome, I'm actually really excited to read Mistborn era 2, it seems like a lot of fun, all the magic cowboys and gunslinging, same for Elantris and Warbreaker. I've actually been thinking of going through all of Stormlight once I'm done in audiobook form, for the true Vorin male experience, which segues into a small disclaimer; I'm male and go by he/him pronouns. Honest mistake, no way to tell what pronouns to use with vague usernames unless it's specifically stated. Thanks for the advice, I'm really looking forward to immersing myself deeper into this universe, finishing Mistborn era 1 and 2 seems like a good place to start, then I'll likely move on to Warbreaker and then Elantris, then revisit Stormlight and polish off the rest at my leisure.
My apologies in spansh (my second language) the ie suffix is more often associated with female.
It is not quite cowboys more like turn of the century between cowboy and WWI. I do almost all these books in audio format since I rarely have time to just sit and read, but I do have time to listen while doing other things like driving, working, and going to bed.
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4 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:
how do you do the hide contents or split a comment to reply to each part? Oh and how do you put a title under your name like you have Rosharan Worldhopper?
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From many of your comments I can see that my intent was grossly misunderstood. I was attempting to give viable situations where Scadrian Magic could likely beat Rosharn Magic in martial applications even if the Radiants were of high Ideals. The whole discussion to this point all but ignored Fused, and Void Bonds and most orders of Radiants. Also everyone overlooked that only Storm or Void light have a confirmed anti-investiture leaving open a Kryptonite for Rosharans that may not have an analog in other systems of the Cosmere like metal arts.
One of the things I leaned heavy on what the near infinite amount of investiture available to Twinborn compounders. All Scadrian are invested, but for most their investiture needs to be triggered which has been stated as happening more and more often as time goes on in the Cosmere such that mistings, ferings, and twins will become ever more common in the future. For Scadrians they have investiture and metal gives them the key to unlock that power in certain specific ways and for some give near infinite amounts of power in narrow areas.
Rosharans on the other hand are not invested until they receive a key through a bond with a cognitive entity to channel investiture. Sever the bond, Leach the light, or attack with anti light and at best they are normal people or worse dead. It also seems that most of those who can form those bonds are in some way broken people and so potentially more open to psychic or emotional attacks. Until they reach 4th ideal when they get plate they are little more than peak human potential for their physical abilities except healing which is formidable until they are out of stormlight. Stormlight constantly leaks whether it is used or not from all but the most perfect gems so must constantly be re-taken by a Radiant to maintain their abilities since they remain normal without it. Even once they reach 4th Ideal the armor only acts like powered battle armor magnifying physical abilities and durability so much defendant on stormlight to continue to function. Damaging plate is a great way to drain stormlight from a Radiant and it can be damaged with force possible from normal people and weapons. The more constant or extreme the force the more damage and the more stormlight lost in short periods of time.
According to Cosmere Law any compounder has the potential to become a perpendicularity themselves so escaping to the CR is not always going to be a good strategy since Metalborn have all their abilities there and Radiants lose 2 of their greatest advantages, Shardblades and Shardplate. This is the case since any sufficiently large concentration of Investiture creates a perpendicularity and compounders have the potential for nearly unlimited investiture in one thing.
Though many metal arts don't translate directly to martial ability alone, many do lend themselves to martial discoveries. A Bronze compounder would be able to detect the specific frequency of Stormlight and could work around the clock to produce anti-stormlight grenades to use or even shorten the process by working with a Zinc compounder who through mental speed could take the readings from the Bronze compounder and create schematics for any number of anti Radiant weapons based on the anti-light. A brass compounder might be impervious to any heat based division or soulcasting attack while exploiting any emotional weaknesses within the Radiant. Gravity, adhesion, and cohesion surges might be almost useless against an Iron Compounder. 1 or more gravity lash to send them flying might be useless if they can double or more their weight instantly. If the wall can't hold the weight adhesion wont hold them. Cohesion is a little trickier but if the person you slicked is suddenly much heavier perhaps all you have done is turn them into a wrecking ball since they could potentially control their movement through metal pulls without resistance. it is also hard to make someone slippery who can literally be heavy enough to sink into almost any surface. Both steel and Iron compounders could tear fabrials to pieces since they depend on metal cages. Pewter compounders would have near limitless strength so any hit with a suitably durable weapon could inflict critical damage to Radiant even in plate.
I guess what I am saying is that I don't believe that a battle between Scadrian Magic and Rosharan Magic is as one sided as has often been represented in this discussion.
Oh an Iron compounder would probably form a perpendicularity long before they formed a steller object and a Steel compounder would probably trigger a perpendicularity long before significant percentages of light speed and maybe even before wind resistance and friction become a serious health issue.
I also noticed that ideas on this stream evaporated after I focused in other areas.
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23 hours ago, Quantus said:
Personally I would read the SA shorts and Warbreaker to round of the most obvious Story connections. Mistborn and Elantris are good in their own right so I wouldnt skip them by any means. I would NOT read Arcanum Unbound or Secret History until you finish Mistborn Era 1, there be Spoilers in those waters...
I think she was asking about after Mistborn era one HOA. I didn't find any major spoilers in secret history and 11th metal filled in some gaps. I actually discovered and started mistborn in Era 2 and so when I went back and read Final empire and beyond I was expecting Vin to discover and use other powers for the whole trilogy. My favorite Cosmere powerset potential comes from Era 2 Scadrial.
9 hours ago, Kaponkie said:Thanks I'll do that
Once you are done with the other Cosmere books re-read Stormlight to see just how much of the other books went into it especially in Rythm of War. I know that Era 2 is suppose to be the latest in Cosmere Chronology but it seems like Rythm of War has the most cameo's from around the Cosmere relating back to everything else that has been written. Don't forget the Short stories as they fill in adventures for favorite characters. Arcanum unbound is where most of those short stories reside. Stories of many of the planets can only be discovered there. It also seems like everyone goes to Roshar where they barely leave a trace anywhere else.
I also agree that Arcanum unbound shouldn't be read until you have finished Mistborn era 1 and perhaps Elantris though the Elantris short in it can stand on its own.
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18 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:
Don't forget the weirdness of Progression being immune to the surge suppression fabrial.
I could see this easily being the case. The bond with the radiant's physical aspect becomes complex and full enough to let the spren manifest as something more complicated than just a piece of metal, etc.
I was thinking more along the line of how lesser spren become plate.
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10 hours ago, Necarion said:
What does a Radiant get from swearing her Fifth Ideal? First and Second were important power boosts. Third was the Shardblade (which was left behind at the Recreance) and Fourth was the Shardplate (also left behind at the Recreance). But there are no artifacts left behind that could plausibly be from the Fifth Ideal.
Obviously, it's some important power boost that is centered on the Radiant and those around them. There are probably the spiritual boosts (people are more likely to respect the leadership of a Windrunner, the judgment of a Skybreaker, etc) and probably some boosts to the squires and lesser Radiants. But none of these are really story-changing or spectacular enough. On the other hand, there is one thing that would fit a KR reaching their highest power:
They can Surgebind without having to carry or directly draw upon Stormlight.
The only 5th Idealer we've seen is Nalan, who can burst alight at any time, and Lift never once mentions him needing to breathe in Stormlight. Now, this might be from his Honorblade, which WOB says allowed the Heralds to directly connect to Honor's power. But the Spren copied the power of the Honorblades in crafting the Nahel Bond, meaning that, at least to some extent, the most invested KR are going to have similar powers to the Heralds. Because they're tied directly into Honor, I think this power would not allow them to serve as a source of Stormlight for other Radiants or for spheres (as that would be OP).
Further, Lift herself never has to draw on Stormlight, but can turn it on and off in herself. This is partly from her weird powers, and comes directly out of her food supply. But she can choose when she wants to be Awesome or not.
(Weaker option: a Fifth Ideal KR can store Stormlight indefinitely, without loss, until they use it. This allows storing power pre-battle.)
I'll address Lyft first. She doesn't actually operate on stormlight, she uses Lifelight originating from cultivation not honor. That is also why she is such a good healer.
What if it was 5th Ideals that formed Soulcasters (Lightweavers, Elsecallers) or ancient fabrials that mimic the surges like oath gates (Elsecallers, Willshapers). That could be why there are a limited number of Soulcaster Fabrials available. I can see Jasnah being able to teleport on the battle field or not even need an oath gate because her transportation surge matures at 5th Ideal. Some surges might even start working at range that didn't before.
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12 minutes ago, Kaponkie said:
I've recently finished the main Stormlight Archive series (haven't read the novellas) and I was wondering what to read next. I've also read the first two books of Mistborn era 1 so I'm probably gonna read Hero of Ages next, but what should I read after that?
Perhaps Arcanum unbound since it is an overview collection on the entire cosmere. If you liked sword nimi try warbreaker. In a way you maybe should have read read everything else before Stormlight Archive since most stories predate it chronologically except perhaps the alloy period of Mistborn. Alloy of Law would also make a good next book.
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Welcome you two. Elantris and Warbreaker are definitely better read before Oathbreaker. Elantris is on the same world as Emporors soul Also once you have done both Elantris and Warbreaker you may want to read Arcanum unbound (edgedancer, 11th metal and secret history are in it). My first Brandon book was in the Wheel of Time then I read Alloy of Law and was hooked. I had to go back to Final Empire. I have a hard time getting enough of Wayne, and Lyft and to a lesser extent Wax, Shallon, Vin and Kaladin. My favorite book was Edge Dancer, then Alloy of Law. Once you finish the Cosmere the Reconers and Legion are great. I haven't started the Skyward series and am a little miffed that he did that Series before finishing Wax and Wayne.
Enjoy your time here.