BenduLuke
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On 5/29/2021 at 3:32 PM, Orlionra said:
Tough question, basically because in recent years, I've relegated the status of "favorite author" to living ones. I'll try anyway.
First, to keep with your form, I cut my teeth on Oz books, Burgess Bedtime stories and The Wind in the Willows. Later, I would read 1001 Arabian Knights and the entirety of Dante's Divine Comedy (I read a bunch of Goosebumps as well, I wasn't a complete dork). I was introduced to Tolkien through the Rankin/Bass movies and had my first encounter with the books when my mom read the Silmarillion to me. I got my first copy of the Lord of the Rings in fifth grade and read it at about the same time as the Divine Comedy. I finally read the Hobbit in seventh grade.
Around that time I got Robot Dreams by Isaac Asimov and got into that genre of science fiction. I read Dune, the Mithgar books, the Wheel of Time and the first Goodkind book.
Around 11th grade I was introduced to Stephen R Donaldson with the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever. It ruined the fantasy genre for me (I liked it a lot) so from there, reading was classic science fiction, Stephen Crane and John Steinbeck.
Eventually I read Mervyn Peake and felt Titus Groan was the zenth of fantasy writing (in a way, I still do). This restored my faith in the fantasy genre and I started reading it again, realizing that what I liked to read was stylistic writing.
I would read Mistborn when it was announced that Brandon would finish the Wheel of Time. I still intended to finish that series then (I never did). I enjoyed it as fun popcorn reading and that's why I read Cosmere books to this day. The result, though, is that if I rank favorite authors, he isn't ever on the list because, well, I adore stylistic prose and that's just not what he writes.
So, time for rankings:
10) Ernest Hemingway
9) John Steinbeck
8) William Golding
7) Stephen R Donaldson
6) Salman Rushdie
5) Zadie Smith
4)Anthony Powell
3)Mervyn Peake
2)Catherynne M Valente
1)John Crowley
Honorable mentions to Steven Erickson, R Scott Bakker, Ford Maddox Ford for personal reading development reasons. There's also plenty of great authors not on this list like Jemisin, Chakraborty and Darcie Little Badger.
Brandon Sanderson fills the role that used to belong to Michael Crichton and Tony Hillerman: an enjoyable author that put out books that were entertaining with some regularity and that were mainstream enough that when I told people I liked to read, I could mention their names along with a couple other authors so that the conversation wasn't shut down.
My brother absolutely loved Donaldson more than Tolkien. I had forgotten about him. with the exception of Hemingway and Steinbeck I haven't read the others on your top 10, for that matter I haven't heard of them before either. I will need to keep them in mind.
On 5/29/2021 at 7:34 PM, Bejardin1250 said:I’m a Brandon Sanderson fan through and through
I was introduced to him when I was 8 and I’ve never encountered a book with more depth
Alot of people tell me Tolkien is good and I have read LoTR obviously, but it’s never been an enjoyable as a book to me. It’s like reading a very good history book.
WoT was bland with it dragging way to long, but if I only took the first three books of Jordan’s he would definitely be in my top 5
Brandon Mull was great, very kiddy but also satisfying
JK Rowling... Taking out Cursed Child it’s a solid series but not my favorite
I actually was reading Enders game for the first time last week, it was eh, with the ending making no sense to me. But if I read it again maybe it would make sense
And then John Flanagan. On every series his first 3 books were good and then it deteriorated into really really bad
Ok so the final standings are:
1: Brandon Sanderson
2: Brandon Mull
3: *Robert Jordan
3: Jk Rowling
4: John Flanagan
5: Bringing up the rear JRR Tolkien (Don’t kill me LoTR fandom
)
Honorable mention because I brought it up, but I don’t actually like it: Orson Scott Card
This list is tentative and subject to change at any time
I was disappointd by the end of Rowling's Harry story. I found Brandon Mull enjoyable. Ender universe (20+ books) from Card gets better as it continues. His Alvin series is my favorite from him. I found his books widely heartfelt and emotional.
On 5/30/2021 at 3:39 AM, Hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:It's always fun to rank things, so here goes:
Top Five Fantasy writers:
5) Jonathan Bellairs (admittedly they are kids books, but the Johnny Dixon books are especially good. The Curse of the Blue Figurine, The Mummy, the Will, and the Crypt, The Eyes of the Killer Robot, The Spell of the Sorcerer's Skull, and The Chessmen of Doom are all delightful books.)
4) Robert E. Howard (especially his Conan stories)
3) Robert Jordan (though I do wish that the WOT was shorter by 3 or 4 volumes, with some editing out of the needless repetition that is an inadequate substitution for real characterization)
2) Tad Williams (especially his Osten Ard books, no one describes setting as lyrically or as well as Tad)
1) Steven Erickson (he does like his diatribes, but for the most part he's a keen observer and long form griping has never been written better or been dressed in better fantastical symbolism. Populating his book with villains that are incarnations of the worst attributes of humanity is nothing short of brilliant. Truly the Jonathan Swift of High Fantasy. It's always satisfying when these villains get their come-uppances.)
Top 5 Science Fiction writers:
5) Roger Zelazny (especially the first 5 books of the Chronicles of Amber, Jack of Shadows and Lord of Light is one of the best Sci-fi books ever written.)
4)Robert A. Heinlein (especially his short stories and novellas, the short story They and novella The Strange Profession of Jonathan Hoag are some of the best short form fiction around)
3) Jules Verne (sure it's laughable now to think that you could get humans to the moon using a giant cannon, but most of his work holds up remarkably well as plausible speculative fiction over 150 years after he wrote it, like Journey to the Center of the Earth, 20,000 Leagues under the sea and especially Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde)
2) HG Wells (though his novels do have some skimmable parts, his prose is compact, his imagination vast, and his short stories are some of the best. His two volume Outline of History is fantastic as well, and it's commonly available at thrift stores.)
1) Horse lover Fats, aka Philip K Dick (if you've ever had a desire to peel back the veil of mundane reality and see the schizophrenic steel and wire machinery that keeps the happy suburban simulacrum of normal life humming, then strap yourself in and go through The Martian Times slip with Phil as your guide, and thrill to the gubbish delight of time traveling precogs used for lucrative building speculation. Or maybe you too can experience the enlightenment of subconscious thought manipulation through orthogonal time achieved by the blast right between your eyes of an intergalactic pink space laser, or perhaps you just want to fend off the unraveling of reality with a can of aerosol propelled Ubik. I highly recommend, with my highest commendation, The Exegesis of Philip K. Dick. It's a vast and strange and strangely vast world my friends.)
Top 10 Authors (a bunch of obscure ones here, I kid)
10) Friedrich Nietzche (The Birth of Tragedy/The Geanology of Morals, Beyond Good and Evil, Ecce Homo, and Thus Spoke Zarathustra are the fun books in philosophy to read. His language is ultra romantic and so very good, his criticisms are always stinging, and his ideas are always interesting. Though his conclusions are often misguided, the journey up the mountain with him is always fun).
9) Goethe (Faust parts 1 and 2)
8) Samuel Taylor Coleridge (He's my favorite poet and The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner and Khubla Khan are my two favorite poems)
7) Gustave Flaubert (Salammbo is one of the 5 best books I've read. His three tales book, with the three long short stories (or short novellas if you prefer) A Simple Heart, St. Julian the Hospitaler, and Herodias, is one of my 10 favorite books of all times)
6) Herman Hesse (Steppenwolf has its moments, but for my money his best books are Siddhartha and Demian)
5) Haruki Murakami (this is definitely for the more mature readers, some very adult themes are dealt with, but the writing is superb, and there's just a tastefully modest dash of magical realism in his work. I highly recommend Hard Boiled Wonderland/End of the World, The Wind-up Bird Chronicle, and Kafka by the Shore)
4) Philip K. Dick (the only author that makes two lists. His short stories are some of the very best, but most of his novels are exceptional as well. Do yourself a favor and read Flow My Tears the Policeman Said, Through a Scanner Darkly, Ubik, Martian Timeslip, the Valis trilogy, and Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep. You won't regret it, and if you crack under the psychic strain of realizing everything is gubbish, you'll still have lots to think about in your padded cell. I kid, it's really good stuff.)
3) Plutarch (everyone should read his Lives of the Noble Grecians and Roman's. Since this is available for free on Project Gutenberg there's no reason not to. The 4 volume set translated by Aubrey Stewart and George Long is much clearer in it's exposition, but the single file Collection is the AC Clough edited version of the John Dryden translation, which if you can adjust to reading it's rather elliptical cadence, you will be rewarded with some profoundly beautiful passages.)
2) Dostoevsky (Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it's an undeniable fact that The Brothers Karamazov is the best book ever written. If you want to read a lesser known book by Fyodor, The Possessed is also amazingly good.)
1) George Orwell (Everyone knows 1984 and Animal Farm, but Orwell's lesser know books are just as good. Down and Out in Paris and London, Burmese Days and especially Keep the Aspidistra Flying are just as good. There's a four volume set of his collected essays and letters that is without a doubt the best thing I've ever read.)
I have to say Tad Williams writes some the best prose I have ever read in a fantasy book. A Winters Tale was profound in its prose.
George Orwell how do you categorize him. Profoundly dark and pessimistic view of humanity, but very insightful.
One person I missed who is not ususally mentioned in fantasy lists is Samuel Clemons (Mark Twain), but A Conneticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court is definitely Fantasy. He is one of my all time favorite authors.
On 5/30/2021 at 5:23 AM, Quick Ben said:I was originally introduced to fantasy like many others through the Lord of the Rings by Tolkien, as such holds a special place in the genre for me, Ursula le guins wizard of earth sea series as well. Read most of Goodkinds books too, but imo he went downhill as series progressed.
Iv never read the wheel of time, tried the first book and was all to cliche for me by the time I read it to proceed more then half way through the book.
Favourite Top 3 as below:
1. Steven Eriksen - no one does epic fantasy like he does, from the setting to the characters no author/series comes close.
2. Tolkien - Lord of the rings is epic in every sense of the word. So much so other authors have been robbing elements of it since was wrote ( Christopher Paolini for example)
3. Mark Lawrence - his debut novel a prince of thorns was fantastic, and so was the series, writes a very gritty type of fantasy.
Worthy mention - GrrM - Rothfuss (both probably round out top 5 if had finished there series) - David Daglish - writes pretty quick paced entertaining reads,
I enjoy Sandersons books but OB and ROW have really let stormlight down (after great start in tWoK and WoR) in my opinion and mistborn is more a YA type read,
It's been a while since I have read Steven Erikson.
On 5/30/2021 at 5:40 AM, Orlionra said:@Hoiditthroughthegrapevine *whispers* Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde was written by Robert Louis Stevenson!
Dr Jekyl and Mr Hyde, that reminds me of Mary Shelly (Frankenstien) and Brahm Stoker (Dracula).
Favorite authors mentioned so far are by frequency:
- Brandon Sanderson. Probably due to this being the shard.
- Tolkien. No surprise there.
- Robert Jordan
- Philip K Dick, and Stephen Erikson with 3 mentions a piece.
Don't kill me if I missed any it was a quick review of posts.
Thanks all for the inputs so far.
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On 6/6/2021 at 6:48 AM, Use the Falchion said:
I have an incredibly stupid idea, and I need it out. But to get it out, I need to know if a Radiant Spren can have two Nahel Bonds. We know that a human can bond to Spren, but can a Spren bond two humans? Or rather...can a Spren bond a human and a Singer at the same time? (But also, yeah, can a Spren bond two humans?)
We have seen various lesser Spren split in two in conjoined fabrials and if the Gems are broke they become two distinct spren so I imagine that it might be possible to split someone like Syl in two creating two distinct spren to bond to or if she bonded two people it spliting her in half and each half becoming its own spren bonded to a person.
two or more spren bonding one person I would think depends on whether they exemplify the requisite ideals of each spren.
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On 6/4/2021 at 1:31 AM, therunner said:
Those building sized shapes were their form in physical. Earlier in the chapter Kaladin and Shallan encounter the Fused along with Thrill in the cognitive near Oathgate in Thaylen City, and those Fused than vanish into the physical. This is mirrored in the Venli parts, where she sees them appear in the physical. At least that is how I read it, the other option is that the Thunderclasts went directly from Cognitive into stone, which would make trapping them even more problematic.
Because he was a bit insane, and was winning. He had no reason to try harder, he had Vin and Marsh on the ropes. The only reason he died is that he had Achilles heal in the form of his atium minds, and the fact that Vin somehow breathed in Mists (something that no else ever did based on what we know).
If your normal pushes are so strong you can push on metals in other people's bodies, you don't have much need for skill. The only one who pushed/pulled on metal inside a person was Vin when she was fueled by Mists, no else did anything like that.
I guess my point is that while Twinborn can be more skilled with their powers than Fullborn, Fullborn is so far beyond them in raw power that it does not matter.
Good point, however it was still hits from Shardblade, and those are repeatedly shown to shatter sections in just two blows (even from people not in plate).
And also the helmet was still not destroyed, it was heavily cracked and leaking stormlight, but not shattered.
Yes, but in that same battle Jasnah gets hit multiple times, and this is the only time her plate cracks even a bit. Also I would assume that Fused that can grow parts of their bodies on demand would also grow muscles. Even basic Warform is 2-3 times as strong as human, Stormform is stronger, and Fused are still considered to be stronger.
I honestly don't remember such a thing with Kal, when was it?
We have seen Szeth Lash Dalinar straight up in the air, and he did fly high enough to not be seen so conservatively maybe 80 meters. This alone gives Windrunners range of around ~120 meters if firing projectiles that weight around ~80-100 kg. If the amount of light needed to lash heavy objects scales linearly with mass, than you could use same amount of stormlight to lash 1kg stone and fire it with maximum range of ~9.5-12 km.
Admittedly it would not be very precise, at least not until they would learn how to use reverse lashings to create guided projectiles (or to use attractors for similar effect). (I need to re-read RoW to find reference to this).
At this point Windrunners are the fastest and most maneuverable people in the air, the only ones who are comparable are Heavenly Ones, who beat them in maneuverability but lose in speed.
They also have access to Adhesion, Surge of Pressure and Vacuum. If this surge can be used in the way this name implies, they could lessen the air density around themselves, reaching even higher speeds (at a cost of maneuverability).
How could A-Gold tip scales?
A-Aluminum is immune only to direct investiture attacks, lashed stone still kills them, as does regular sword, plated punch, Shardblade in form of crushing weapon (hammer, flail, club), or being set on fire (or eventually lasers). And they are immune only so long as they are burning aluminum, currently the most expansive metal on Scadrial.
Gaspers, are regular people that don't need to breathe (if they have large enough stores, which would most likely require some Compounders to maintain), they are not invisible.
Subsumers would not need supply lines for food and water, but still need them for everything else, i.e. bullets, explosives, medical material etc. And again, they would need Compounders to maintain their stores. Again, they are just regular people who don't need to eat or drink if they have enough stores in metalmind, this gives them a small indirect advantage over regular people, but not much else. And again, they are not invisible, anyone with life sense, or a bunch of spren, or someone in cognitive can find them.
Conjoiners make Bridge Four possible, that is much in my book. They also allow communication that cannot be intercepted, and to direct movements over large distances.
The glove fabrial was close enough that Leshwi was at first confused how he does it, when suppresors are active. It is crude, but it does allow flight-like movement in arbitrary direction.Building sized is enough when you just need it to negate opponent magical abilities, like ettmetal grenades and machinery, Rioting/Soothing or those pesky Steelrunners. And you can use multiple of them.
Bridge Four is quite slow currently, but is also the first ever build and was build less then a year after it was proved you can use fabrials to create floating platforms.
And Scadrial does not have anti-air cannons, or flak, or mass production of medallions (and we don't know if that will even be possible) or aluminum or military equipment, or trained armies. For all we know NoScad and SoScad will go to war, and SoScad will bomb NoScad back to the stone age, and so deprive Scadrial of most of metalborn (and large part of its already small population).
It is the about the main ship, the one Suit and Wax have their stand-off on, the one that supposedly carries the bomb.
Explosives made of godmetal, metal that is most likely even more rare than aluminum. And Radiant like F-gold can heal nearly anything if they have enough stormlight to do so.
Shardplate can be repaired so long as any piece of any size remains and you feed it stormlight, and that is deadplate.
Possibly, if we had more than one person we could say more. And there is still the case of Venli, who is using her Radiant Surge without an issue, she just needs to fuel it with Voidlight, not Stormlight.
Good points, but I don't fully agree. While I do think that Ruin and Preservation are very close to one anothers opposites in some sense, I don't think that makes them necessarily anti-investiture to one another. Remember that they created Scadrial together wholesale, including the souls of all creatures there. If their investiture always destroyed each other on contact, that would be very difficult if not outright impossible to do.
There is the fact that mists are repelled by Hemalurgy, but someone with spike would be repellent to spren as well, so it might be more general effect. The repelling can also be explained in that they have opposite 'charges/Intents', if Coulomb equation had minus sign in front of it, different charges would repel and yet electron would not be anti-particle of proton.
The amplification also relies on suppresor to work along the lines of Rhythms, but anti-Tone has very different effect on investiture from that of suppresor. Voidlight was actively repelled away from anti-Tone, but all the Stormlight in the Tower is still there, and is never described as pushing/pulling somewhere even after suppresors were tuned to Radiants.
I quite like the idea of using water to fill the molds, that is very cheap and efficient way to properly fill them.
To build on this, I think even more complicated things can be created by your method as follows
- Create object out of wood, clay, or something else.
- Soulcast air around it (and inside it) into a mold.
- Soulcast the original object into air
- Cut the mold in half with shardblade (or some tool that cuts sufficiently finely), Ta-da, reusable mold for the more difficult object.
If the object had a hole in the middle not connected to outside, this method would still not work, but with others it might help to need to create complicated object only once.
Likely building size fair enough. As many Spren can represent in multiple sizes not conclusive and they might be able to be forced into a more manipulable size. If that is their static size you could use less material with much larger gaps.
I wasn't directly refering to his trying harder though that is simptomatic of his mastery of his abilities over the years. The lack of effort he used in his fight with Vin was indicative of his attitude to only do the very minimum with his abilities since virtually no one could challenge him. In other words I suspect with that much potential power comes a degree of motivation to do more than the minimum necessary in general. Where someone with less ability because they need to try harder could eventually reach a point where their own skill and ability outstrips the one with greater potential. (something I have seen over and over in real life.)
Wax was doing feats similar to Vin's mist powered pushes and some she never imagined because of his skill and innate ability to increase his power.
Deflected hits from shardblades and hits against shardplate at near normal strength levels that caused the damage which implies to me that the durability proposed by many of you is at least somewhat overrated. We never saw Kal when he blocked a hit thrown across the room or break his arm by shard enhanced strength. I do grant that so long as there is stormlight the plate will mend, but that doesn't mean it was impenetrable only that it might just heal over any holes.
Singers all have greater strength than humans, and Fused greater still, but we have no baseline for measure of any of their absolute strength. Our measurements are all relative, and Roshar has been said to have lower gravity which implies less absolute strength in general of all the inhabitants.
Kal when he was fighting Amram on the beach was lashing rocks at him. Some were pretty big and he was going through massive amounts of stormlight to do it and evade his several opponents.
Upon consideration and further reading it was Kal's skill that enabled him to reverse lash the Defeated's head alone to the ground and was only possible because he stuck him off the ground. Reverse lashings seem to require something being drawn to what the windrunner is touching and if that attracted thing is on the ground (why the defeated was lashed to a wall above the ground) could cause it to fail more often than not. The connection to the ground interferes with reverse lashings.
We really don't know how fast Windrunners are moving since their motion is always relative to their opponents. Certainly it hasn't been show as so fast that wind resistance, directions changes or friction become a problem.
A-Gold can give insights into an opponent.
A-Aluminum neutralizes the Radiants most effective weapon, potentially injuring the Spren the weapon is made of at the same time, and providing an attack of opportunity that is potentially lethal to the Radiant due to the shock of their blades ineffectiveness. All of this after being under fire for a period of time by potentially heavy weapons. There is also, though potentially remote, that being near the aluminum savant might do to stromlight what it does to metal. Also an aluminum misting might be able to be turned into a fullborn by hemalugy without the detrimental spirit holes over time.
Subsumers have the advantage of mobility which can enable precision strikes anywhere.
Gaspers can attack from unexpected locations or under unexpected conditions. Rivers, poison clouds, underwater, extreme altitudes and so on.
Scadrial does have timers, cannons, explosives, and machine guns, so they have all they need to have flack and anti-air weaponry. You can also be the southern continent has anti-air weaponry since they have bonified air ships. not just muscle powered (probably soon to be fixed) floating platforms.
Ettemetal explosives are potential city destroying ordinance. Building size is not a problem.
Preservation provides structure and stability, while Ruin provides energy and change. Both are required for life. It is the balance between the opposites, decay wrapped in stability and energy wrapped in structure, that allows for change and growth without complete chaos. You may notice that cultivation operates in much the same balance as does the old magic. Harmony doesn't combine Ruin and Preservation, he balances them destruction vs construction and chaos vs order. They are literally opposites in balance on Scadrial.
Rosharans might get the idea of firearms from Scadrial, but I think they would approach it differently. I think theirs would be designed more around Repulsor fabrials not chemically propelled projectiles. Imagine the variety of projectiles they could use.
On 6/4/2021 at 10:53 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:I don't dispute that iron feruchemy affects the total strength of your push/pull, to do that would be to wilfully ignore the evidence of the books.
I have an analogy for you, imagine allomantic strength as your ability to gain purchase or grip and the strength of your push/pull as muscular strength. In this analogy the more invested something is, the slipperier it is, and no matter how strong you are, you can't move something against which you can gain no purchase.
So while total strength increases your ability to grip remains the same, and so you have nowhere to apply said massive strength. See also in Alloy of Law when Wax throws a push against some metal, only to discover that it's allomantically inert, he's able to push, but it does no good because he can't gain purchase.
I'll leave the momentum + pushes to people better at physics than I.
Do you have a source for this? I can't recall ever getting concrete numbers on pushes and pulls.
Aluminium inhibits magical healing from any magic system. Though I'm willing to agree that possibly radiant healing has been overstated a little. The surefire way to kill anyone with significant magical healing seems to be to mulch the head/brain entirely, but it's far from the only way (of note is that, according to Brandon, Rashek lied about surviving decapitation, had he been properly decapitated it'd have killed him, presumably making the guillotine an effective method to kill invested individuals), going off what Nale says in Edgedancer, a shardblade through the spine kills a first oath radiant (and possibly second oath, I'm not sure if he thinks Lift is second or third at the time) because he notes that Lift had progressed to the point where he'd need to keep her impaled until she ran out of light to be sure, judging by how Elhokar dies keeping any vital spot wounded until the relevant investiture runs dry will also kill someone who's using invested healing and if the Defeated One wasn't such a huge idiot he could probably have killed Kaladin by just jamming his carapace spike in and keeping the wound open so that Kal's spinal cord couldn't heal. Then again, I think anything that gets a third or above oath radiant gets anyone, even Miles 'the sensible response to being tied up is blowing yourself up' Dagouter, though in his case you might get bored keeping him stabbed after a while.
On that note, I think the relevant ways of supernatural healing (pewter not included because it's completely outcompeted when the other ways are known to regrow limbs) end up, from worst to best: bloodmaker, the lowest rung, beaten by radiant healing for burst healing, might win a protracted heal-off but lacks ease of powering; radiant healing, beats a standard bloodmaker for ease of use if nothing else, stormlight just naturally happens every week or so, might be fairly fuel inefficient but fuel is incredibly plentiful; gold compounder, the gold standard (heh) of cosmere healing, incrrdible burst healing, incredible lasting power, power source stays when not in use, unlike stormlight which eventually evaporates.
In general I think that guns will have a hard time dealing with invested healing in the same way that guns have a hard time dealing with vampires in popular culture, bullet holes in most of the soft bits won't really slow them down and with the wounds resealing quickly, things like blood loss and internal bleeding won't come into play. Once incendiary ammunition, explosive rounds and flamethrowers enter the equation then we might be talking.
Is this from when Kaladin intervened in Adolin's duel? Because the way I remember that is that the helmet was crisscrossed with cracks from being hit by shardblades several times and to people familiar with plate it looked like a miracle that it still held together. From your phrasing it seems you are talking about an instance where Kaladin destroys a helmet however, please remind me of when that happens, I don't recall this from any of the instances when Kaladin fights a shardbearer, but I haven't read WoK/WoR in a while.
Could the same not be said of metalborn with combat powers? It's easy to overestimate yourself, especially if you know/think you're better than average.
As I've already said, physics is not my strong suit, so I'll leave that to others.
A fist sized rock is plenty dangerous at speed, you don't have to be sending boulders flying, also, Szeth using the Honorblade lashes a piece of rock large enough to stand on on his way to Gavilar, so a third/fourth oath radiant could probably act like artillery fairly easily, given the greater efficiency of radiants.
I'd say that 9 of the orders are combat focussed, on account of their armour piercing instant death swords and powered armour, even if they are differently suited to different roles in an army.
I will agree that at present there seems to be no large scale fabrial manufactoring, it's still an artisanal craft. I'm curious about what you mean by limited range or effect, compared to what? The Urithiru suppressor covers the entirity of the tower and a bit beyond and spanreeds work a continent apart, oh, and Vstim's alerter presumably has range exceeding effective line of sight, otherwise it feels like an unwise investment.
If they're above the highstorm they're not much use as air support and might be vulnerable to attack from radiants.
Waterproof for Scadrian weather isn't necessarily highstorm proof.
I believe the small craft needed the crew to be storing weight, but was fine otherwise, but the large ship required priming with iron feruchemy, implying it needs to be lighter.
Ah, I hope I didn't come across as having taken offense then, tone on the internet and all that.
I fail to see why this would be the case, as by the same token you'd need three suppressors to block a normal windrunner, one per lashing. I don't doubt that you could make single ability suppressors, though I think that it's simpler to make a blanket counter-Preservation device that making a counter-Preservation-as-filtered-through-gold device.
I'm not sure I follow, to me this reads like someone saying that because you turned down the heat on your tap the cold water got more cold, if you follow.
Hmm, fair point. I suppose it's hard to say what comes from the suppressor affecting stormlight, what comes from the suppressor affecting the bond and what comes from the suppressor affecting the surgebinding at this stage.
Though I do want to raise the point that suppressors do not seem to have been deployed en masse historically, if they were the fused would presumably have reverse engineered them far earlier, implying that they are hard to manufacture, that the ancients just didn't know how or that they felt they had some other reason not to make them.
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I haven't seen any evidence of greater power creating greater slipperiness in allomancy. On the contrary is seems to impart greater control.
I found a WoB about momentum with regard to steelpushes.
Questioner
Everybody talks about steel-steel twinborns. A big topic of discussion. What I'm thinking about, I haven't seen anybody ask, what happens when somebody who's tapping speed, does a steelpush, does the steelpush react in realtime or accelerated time? And the object-- is it like a railgun?
Brandon Sanderson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm surprised that no one's asked me that before. This gets really dangerous really fast... It's RAFO territory, but you are thinking along the right lines.
Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)
The momentum of your motion does seem to be translated into the momentum of the push.
The 10x seems to be a generally accepted value and I remember reading it somewhere, but could find it.
I think I follow your objection. Guns are viewed as making small holes so may not create massive injury, but that is not necessarily the case. Hollow points make a small entry wound but massive internal damage. So do explosive rounds. Some of Ranette's Hazekiller rounds are designed to stop Kolos and Thugs in their tracks so have massive impacts. Given this and the Scadrian metalugy there are many combinations of firearms that could be devastating even to Radiants of almost any oath and by nature from a distance negating Radiant's greatest advantages at this point. Any that include even a small amount of aluminum could play havoc not just with healing but many other surges as well gravity being one. Even vampires react poorly to silver and garlic coated bullets.
It seems to me that the mechanics of Radiants and metalborn are fundamentally different. In order to suppress a Radiant you need to block the conversion of stormlight into a surge and that can be by using a counter tone like void tone, but to block a metal born you may need to block the key tone of the ability since all Scadirans are innately invested though most only latently so.
On 6/4/2021 at 0:02 PM, ScadrianTank said:Do you have a source for this?
Because here is him saying the opposite:
Only if they improve accuracy. Shooting small rocks at a moving target at subsonic speeds is dangerous, but aiming at things with your hands won't be easy.
Smaller ships needed the crew to decrease their weight with F-iron, and larger ships need to have their own weight reduced. This makes sense because their methods of propulsion are quite basic.
Windrunners and fighter planes powered by Gravitation would be tough to deal with, even with our tech. Their ability to completely reverse their direction without losing much momentum makes them significantly more difficult to track,
That would be great if firearms could be made reliable from any blend of steel. Gunsmiths and engineers spent decades refining materials used in the creation of firearms.
I don't recall any windrunners actually reversing direction? Kal caught his father and had to slow so as not to hurt him so it seems inertia is an issue with lashings. Windrunners do seem relatively fast compared to their opponents but not so fast that wind resistance or friction seem to cause an issue nor do they seem to change direction so drastically that inertia becomes an issue. Moving targets are harder to hit but with enough high speed projectiles that becomes a moot point.
From what I have seen so far Fabrials and manufacturing techniques do not lend themselves to mass production, but the Industrial processes of Scadrial do and seem to be in place already to do that.
The shear versatility and combinations of powers in my opinion offers a great counter to the shear brute force of Rosharan surges and the difference in the level of technology between the two creates a substantial advantage when paired with magic to Scadiral.
Scadrial's magic also offers a substantial advantage in rapidly developing technology more quickly and deploying it more generally.
Yes one on one in most cases if the Radiant can get close they will likely win in a battle with a metalborn, but only if they close the distance otherwise they will more often lose even to the least powerful metalborn. Even a simple Coppercloud could get within an alerter fabrials defense to surprise and eliminate a Radiant from a distance.
Brute strength such as Roshar has is only so useful against versatility, skill, technology and cunning with some potential applied force such as Scadrial has.
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12 hours ago, therunner said:
All right here is the direct transcription, other who have access may confirm:
Thanks for that. I still wonder if that is how they appear in the cognative or if that is their actual appearance in the Physical. Many Spren also seem to be of variable sizes and seem to change sizes so even if it is their appearance in the physical they could potentially be squished into a more manageable size.
12 hours ago, therunner said:All the fullborn needs to do is compound F-steel, F-gold and have a lot of chromium on hand, for example. They don't need great mastery when they can brute force nearly anything.
And if they happen to focus on the abilities that would make them danger to Radiant, they are far more dangerous than any twinbornFor some reason the only Fullborn we actually know of didn't use anywhere near his full potential and even in his use it seemed more of a brute force approach where someone like Wax had major skill in his abilities due I presume to the amount of focus and practice he had in them. Yes if a Fullborn could master or nearly so all of his abilities there would be few anywhere that could challenge him, and he could produce more Fullborn's through new Bands.
12 hours ago, therunner said:Just as even twin-gold would be killed by aluminum weapons, and anyone on Scadrial without F-gold is still easier to kill. Per Brandon they can heal literally nearly anything (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e4788) and it is effectively the same as gold-healing (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6336).
I have been trying to make the point throughout that Aluminum is the general counter investiture of the Cosmere. Not to be confused with Anti-Investiture. Scadrial is near the point where it can mass produce it.
@Frustration Scadrial has the industrial infrastructure to begin to mass produce weapons and such where Roshar doesn't.
13 hours ago, therunner said:That helmet was not keyed to him and was dead (with unknown effects), also drained stormlight to reshape itself, and was used to deflect multiple blows (at least 4) from Shardblades wielded by someone in plate. So no, it was not demolished just by above average strength, it was demolished by Shardblades wielded by Shardplated people. (WoR, Ch. 57)
Jasnah goes to battle in fully functioning plate, and the only time it gets damaged (on a helmet by coincidence) its from a Fused (Magnified One, progression) who jumped and slammed both of axe-shaped hands on her head. (RoW, Ch. 64) And that only cracked it, and was seemingly fixed nearly immediately, and it did not drain too much of her stormlight to do so.It was still his just above average strength that was used to bash the helmet. His enhanced agility and speed limited the direct hits he took. Do you really think that he could have stopped a direct hit on the helmet by someone with shardplate enhanced strength?
We don't know how hard those hands were or how comparatively strong the magnified one was since we have nothing to compare it to except its affect on her shard helmet and so long as she had stormlight the helmet would heal just like the one Kal used. Still her shardhelmet was damaged by hardened skin, muscle, and bone which might indicate it isn't as durable as we might think.
13 hours ago, therunner said:Windrunners and Skybreakers can attack from distance (lash object in direction of enemy), as can Lightweavers and Elsecallers (soulcast). That is 4 out of 10. When they discover lasers (or just that concentrated enough light can set things on fire) you could add Truthwatchers to the list for every other Order having at least one ranged ability.
I would argue that all order except Bondsmiths are combat focused, as they all get weapon and armor and they all get healing. Some are more support focused (Truthwatchers, Willshapers) but all can use their Surges in combat even if only to distract an enemy so that they can stab them. Even the 'non-combat' focused Radiants are much more useful in battle than non-combat metalborn (A-aluminum, A-gold, F-cadmiun, F-bendalloy for example).
From what I remember we only have one example of a Windrunner (Kal) using lashes to throw rocks and it was on a beach in an area about the size of a football field or 2 or somewhere there abouts. Not thousands of meters. He still missed often and drained stormlight very fast and didn't need to dodge super sonic projectiles while he was doing it.
Windrunners are relatively fast and maneuverable compared to their usual opponents, but that doesn't mean they are absolutely fast or maneuverable.
Alright A-Gold I don't see much use for it in battle, but even it could tip the scales at times. The other 3 I see very distinct potential advantages to. A-Aluminum has the potential to be immune to all investiture based attacks even shardblades. Gaspers could attack from ambush in any number of situations. Subsumers could persist without supplies for extended periods of time enabling coordinated surprise attacks from almost anywhere. They would need to eat and drink less than a camel while on mission so would need no supply lines. There are ways to take advantage of almost every metalborn ability in combat if you think it through. After saying that I could probably see ways to use virtually every Rosharan Surge in combat as well if I felt like giving it some thought, but I will leave that to you and the majority who want to promote Roshar.
13 hours ago, therunner said:Conjoiners have nearly unlimited range (enough to get across the continent) and free standing suppresors seem to have field at least building sized.
They have also started to systematically research fabrials and pool together their knowledge only in the last year, and still managed to create a device that crudely mimics lashing. With 10-15 more years we are bound to see some interesting stuff.Yeah conjoiners have range, but they don't do much. That fabrial doesn't really mimic lashings and has huge problems for the user. Building size affects when battlefields can be 100's to 1,000's of meters or even many Km's. Even bridge four is muscle powered so very limited in its movement even if it floats on air. We are not 10 to 15 years in the future so we don't know what significant advances if any might take place. For all we know in 10 days most of the population on Roshar will be dead or enslaved even the Spren and they may be operating at near stone age level again with almost no remaining Radiant or Fused.
13 hours ago, therunner said:Being above the Highstorm would be probably the only thing that would save them, the ship is made to be lighter than air so strong wind would move it easily. While the containers are designed to operate in Scadrial weather, Highstorm is something else (sustained winds of ~600 km/h at least).
All the SoScad ships we have seen require F-iron device, even the one Suit uses to escape. When he gets on the ship one of his minions tells him they are currently priming the weight-changing device and that it is the last step in preparation, quote:Your quote is great but it is about the lifeboat not their main ships.
Everyone of those Scadrian airships carries extremely high explosives that could be used to great effect by coinshots and firearms against Rosharan enemies especially near a Highstorm. Every one of those high explosives penetration into a Rosharan would cause catastrophic damage even to a Radiant. They might even be enough to irreparably damage shardplate with a near miss or impact.
13 hours ago, therunner said:Lift is also modified by Cultivation and is using Lifelight, and she still could use only one of her surges. By contrast Venli could her Radiant surges without an issue if she was powering it with Voidlight. And those suppresors were not fully converted yet, so were not working at full capacity.
by corrupting the Sybling it could have affected Lifelight fueled surges as well since it was being corrupted with voidlight.
13 hours ago, therunner said:Metallic arts are from either one or two shards (Harmony/ Preservation and Ruin) so you need to block investiture of either one shard or two (if it is still sufficiently separate). And suppresor could block all the surges barring Adhesion (the one even Fused very worried about) and Progression (but seemingly only in Lift, who has touched by Cultivation), all Surges are very distinct abilities and yet they are all blocked, why would the metallic arts be different?
There is never any talk about suppresor boosting another abilities, nor is there any evidence for that.I'll address you second statement first. Ruin and Preservation are opposites so what blocks one likely amplifies the other. Unlike Honor and Odium which are not opposites so can be independently affected. As such anything that can block both at once would nullify itself or explode. Remember Vin literally anihilated herself and Ati when she attacked Ruin. Harmony needs to keep it separate and balanced at all times and perhaps that is why his Godmetal (ettmetal) is so volatile. What Harmony does is comparable to the magic system of Recluse where magic is either based in order or chaos and when forced together in combat creates major explosions. Most magic users there use either one or the other and a few walk a fine line between them and also usually lean toward one or the other. The idea that a Preservation suppressor would amplify Ruin abilities comes from wave theory since Ruin and Preservation rhythms would have destructive interference thus a preservation suppressor would likely have constructive interference on Ruin Rhythms.
Oh since you like Brandon's books you might check out the Saga of Recluse series by L. E. Modesitt jr. One warning the order he wrote the series in is not the Chronological order of the Books. He jumps around in history of over 1,000 years of his world. That is a quirk he has in most of his series. He has been on the writing scene since the 70's. Try him book order first then chronological order because the later books get better.
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On 5/29/2021 at 4:51 PM, therunner said:
Yes, they animate the stone, not the soil. The fact that some soil might remain stuck on the stone does not mean they animate the soil as well, they don't animate the fungus or the moss.
Souls of Thunderclasts are described as roughly the size of buildings (Oathbringer, chapter 115), so you would need a box at least building size. Net or cage would be insufficient, as they could simply pass through the gaps.
The yes/no scenarios were @The Technovore 's not mine.
Also that does not answer my question. On the last page you said that I am wrong about Fullborn defeating Radiant, and that it would be a toss up, literally saying this:
So again, how is it that Fullborn vs Radiant is a toss up, but some twinborn can defeat Radiant of any order? Since Fullborn is all twinborn rolled up into one, they should be at least as strong as the most powerful twinborn, no?
Since I don't have a hard copy of Oathbringer I cannot confirm or dispute your statement of how large the Singer soul to make a Thunderclast would be, but I don't remember any description of the size of that soul so I am skeptical.
Sorry I misquoted.
A fullborn who acts like TLR focused almost entirely on only a few of their abilities would have a challenge fighting a Radiant because they use many of the same abilities. A Twinborn compounder would have more mastery of the few things they can do. There was a lot that TLR didn't even seem to use that he had the potential to do. I suspect that most Fullborn would work on mostly a few abilities while neglecting others.
On 5/31/2021 at 5:42 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:The way I see it there's allomantic strength, which is inborn and, barring hemalurgy, shardic intervention, lerasium and nicrosil feruchemy, unchangable, burning pewter always gives the same person the same amount of extra oumph for instance, defined by their allomantic strength.
For steelpushes and ironpulls this would define how hard you can push/pull, that is how much force you can exert allomantically, as well as how much resistance you can overcome and how fine things you can sense/affect.
Then steelpushes and ironpulls are further influenced by physics, every action has an equal and opposite reaction, this is where mass (or effective mass, in the case of iron feruchemy) plays into strength. Vin is noted as being stronger than Kelsier, but is still warned against engaging in pushing matches, because she'll most likely be out-weighed by her opponent, and as such she'll be flung around.
So in short, mass makes your push stronger by having more, well, mass behind your push, without changing your allomantic strength in the process. You can't affect anything that didn't show up with steel lines before tapping weight after tapping.
I really feel that you'd be better served by trying to explain why you think a given example is extreme or overstated rather than deliberately pulling out such examples yourself.
I also wish to say that broadly I agree with you re: the discussion of the supressor a page or two back, given that the Urithiru supressor got messed up by fairly minor things (Lift's lifelight, Venli's... regal-ness[?]) and I personally think that, as a bondsmith fabrial, it messes with connection, so unless they manage a broad-spectrum one it might be hard to make a supressor that reliably gets all the metallic arts (eg. allomancy supressor might get bypassed by hemalurgy or medallion.)
I'm also going to keep (infrequently as it may be) championing that, assuming the rapid dissemination of medallions, Scadrial has a higher average troop quality, because they have the potential to make every soldier eg. a pewterarm/bloodmaker, or whatever combination you desire, keeping in mind that medallions seem to be common enough in the south that everyone has one, otherwise they couldn't go outside.
Given enough compounders (and with the medallions those are more plentiful) Scadrial might also have the advantage in field medicine, just strap a bloodmaker medallion to someone and hand them an unkeyed goldmind, and have the ability to alleviate some supply line problems with the same approach using bendalloy.
@The Technovore (I think, sorry if I pinged the wrong person)
Small pedantry, there's no need to give Roshar crossbows, they already have them, as can be seen in the Thaylen gemstone reserve, Rysn shoots a Fused with a crossbow.
And finally, a small point on air superiority, a Scadrian invasion of Roshar can, as I understand it, basically not at all make use of their airforce, for two reasons.
1, their airships rely on being lighter than air, which I'm sure would make them play nice with the highstorm.
2, their airships rely on ettmetal, which explodes when wet, so unless it's in highstorm-proof containers it won't survive the first storm.
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Steel/Iron Allomantic power is affected both by the persons innate ability and their mass or momentum. The faster a coinshot is moving the more powerful his push will be and likewise the more weight a lucher has the more shear power they can bring to bear which is why those two twin compounders have such a potentially high power output. Roughly your metal pushes and pulls are 10x your mass and all of your momentum can be added to any push.
Because Radiants have been shown to be able to be killed by the Regals aluminum weapons that indicates a significant limit to healing. Because a shardhelmet (Kaladin) has been shown to be demolished by his just above average strength and drained his Stormlight in the process the durability of Shardplate may also be being overestimated. Because even when Kal is flying as fast as possible he is not affected detrimentally by either air resistance or friction Radiant speed is also being overestimated. Using stormlight also leads to reckless behavior potentially putting a Radiant in extremely dangerous situation that they may not be able to handle. Lashing more massive objects devour more massive amounts of Stormlight. Only a few orders of Radiants are combat focused and none have much ranged ability at this time so their ability to close is also being overestimated. Even Rosharan fabrials and their production are being overestimated since most have very limited range, or effect and none can replicate Radiant surges at this time (that will eventually come).
Scadrian Airships may be able to go over any highstorm. I am sure the containers are waterproofed because they operate on Scadrial in weather conditions. Also the small ships seem to need weightlessness, but the larger ships may not be nearly as dependent on that since that didn't seem to be a problem when Suit was trying to escape on one.
On 5/31/2021 at 8:29 AM, therunner said:I would push back a bit at this, the situations in RoW where suppresors don't work are not minor things, but only things where another Shard is involved:
- Lift is not using stormlight like every other Radiant, but lifelight (Cultivation's investiture). So if suppresors are keyed to Honor's investiture, this won't be blocked (and she still has issues with one of her surges despite this).
- While Venli can breathe in stormlight, she cannot use it to actually power Surges, she needs to use Voidlight instead, so Odium's investiture. (RoW chapter 67)
So from this it seems that single suppresor can block use of investiture of a given shard. For allomancy it should depend on how exactly it is fueled,
- Non-hemalurgic allomancy is fueled by Preservation, hence Preservation suppresor should be enough.
- Feruchemy seemingly involves both Preservation and Ruin to facilitate tapping/storing (as Ruin can interfere with coppermind memories in transit), and so might require two suppresors to fully stop.
- Hemalurgically granted abilites are fueled/powered by Ruin (I think), so you would need Ruin suppresor.
- Medallions use seemingly 'just' unsealed nicrosil-minds, so they should be fueled as non-hemalurgic power. (as it trick souls to think it has power it does not)
So to stop or hinder most metalborn, I think you require just Preservation-keyed suppresor. In fact since Harmony has only one naturally occuring godmetal (as far as we know), it hints that Harmony might have only one associated kind of investiture at this point, so Harmony-suppresor might stop all metallic arts.
Lyft's cultivation surge that of healing was working, but the other surge of abrasion which is probably an honor surge was not. The Sibling being of both Honor and Cultivation when she was being corrupted was potentially causing problems for both incrimentally only allowing Voidlight surges while blocking the other 2.
Allomancy is potentially different enough from Rosharan investiture that it might actually require multiple suppressors to counter all the abilities. at the very least probably 3 or as many as 257 (16 allomancy x 16 Feruchemy). One to block Ruin's imitation of powers of Preservation. It would likely be hard to suppress both aspects of Harmony's power since what suppresses one side magnifies the other.
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52 minutes ago, therunner said:
If anything they are mutual counter, as both use Fortune and both would interfere with one another. If corrupted Truthwatcher is enough of a problem that it counters futuresight of a Shard, even compounder won't overcome that.
They have never been shown to form from anything other than a stone, and in fact it would not make much sense to form from soil (as it does not hold shape well). To capture the fused soul you would need fully aluminum cage the size of the fused, which is about the same as size of Thunderclast, so at least 30 feet tall. That is not a cage that you can easily hide to trap someone in.
I am also wondering whether you even read responses to you, as you have a habit of ignoring questions of others, even when they only ask you make a concrete statement instead of vague one.
I am still curious as to why you think Radiant vs Fullborn is a toss up, despite also thinking some twinborn would be able to kill Radiant of any Oath. And I am still wondering which parts of my previous replies where 'desperate rant' as you stated.
You are right a mutual counter. There is the potential for a Chromium compounder to have a larger area of effect than say Renarin. Those around him cannot be predicted but the further from him they are the better Odium can predict them. Someone with a near limitless supply of Fortune could potentially have a very broad affect even on a shard's perception.
I get the idea that they can potentially form at least in part from soil from this description "When they desire to take on a physical form, they sink into the stone and animate it, ripping themselves out in the humanoid form.[3] As such, they retain some qualities of the material they take on, like the color or a covering of moss or fungus."
Earlier it describes the Spren as singer souls so maybe 6 or 7 feet tall. Not so hard to make a cage or net that big. Some spren can change size so we can't be certain they could be larger or smaller.
Overall I think a conflict between Rosharan and Scadrian magic is a toss up. I did generally agree with your yes no scenerios as to likely potential outcomes if they could go to Scadrial. There are some twinborn like steel compounders who could do enough damage in a short enough period to overwhelm even a Radiant in armor. Some could apply the brain vs brawn analogy to defeat or kill radiants. So far we have seen Brandon use brute force in both systems, but on Scadrial that is barely the tip of its potential. Toe to Toe there are very few metalborn that would be a match for any Radiant, but Scadrian magic isn't limited to toe to toe engagements to win, they are only icing on the cake. A single Zinc compounder could use any and all the abilities of his forces to best advantage and influence the morale of both sides of the battle. There are others that could have equally unforeseeneen affects on the battle tipping the scales to Scadrial. Roshar has brute force in almost all cases, but that still doesn't guarantee the win for them it only gives them a fighting chance.
50 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:Okay, sure. Let's assume there's a reliable method for turning Leechers and Spinners into Chromium Compounders, through hemalurgy/medallions/etc.
Now you've just pushed the problem back to "how many Leecher/Spinner pairs are in the Scadrian Population that you could conceivably use as fodder to make Chromium Compounders".
Anyone could be a Chromium compounder with the right medallion. You can make as many of those at a time as you can find truesouls. Of course you could make as many compouning medallions of any kind with a truesoul and the right medallions. One true soul could use any two medallions of the same metal in succession to create a compounding medallion so long as one was allomantic and the other feruchemical. Any other twin combination would be possible as well.
It seems to me that an aluminum compounder could potentially use spikes or medalions to become fullborn and could then create even more BoM. A nicrosil compounder could also potentially become Fullborn using medallions and might then be able to create more BoM as well. I might possibly be wrong but we will need to wait and see. I hear one of the main protagonists of era 3 will use Nicrosil.
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I recently discovered that one of my all time favorite authors passed away last year and it got me thinking of the various sci-fi fantasy series authors I have enjoyed over the years Terry Goodkind.
My concious introduction to fantasy was of course Tolkien through the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings which is the first series I re-read. My serious Sci-Fi introduction was Orson Scott Card and Enders Game another first re-read series. An honorable mention for both Fantasy and Sci-Fi would be Piers Anthony.
I discovered Brandon because I was finishing Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. After reading his contribution I decided to try Alloy of Law (my favorite Brandon Series), Then I sought out everything else he had out at the time and will give any of his books a try because I enjoyed his style so much.
So my favorite Sci-Fi, Fantasy series authors in no particular order are: Orson Scott Card, Brandon Sanderson, L. E. Modesitt jr., Terry Goodkind, Jim Butcher, Allen Dean Foster, and Anne McCaffrey.
Now to try to rank them but first Tolkien and Asimov are the Godfathers of the genres to which the others are derivative.
7. Anne Mccaffrey. I absolutely loved her Crystal Singer series, and the Dragons of Pern were both series that immersed me.
6. Allen Dean Foster. It was his Spell singer series and his Starwars adaptations that pulled me in.
5. Terry Goodkind. He used to be higher on the list. I started the Sword of Truth series and Wheel of time at the same time and the contrast between these very similar series kept me switching back and forth. I really liked the rules behind his magic, but kept getting frustrated that Richard never had time for his grandfather to train him until it finally became evident that his gift was unique and wouldn't work like Zed's. It was during a read of his most recent series that I realized his villains are essentially the same villain in different circumstances so he dropped a few spaces.
4.Jim Butcher. I discovered him because of a panel that he and Brandon were on. As I explored Harry's world his writing got more and more entertaining. Then I found his Furies series which has convinced me that I will give anything he writes a chance.
Now it gets hard because the other 3 keep switching places on me.
3. Orson Scott Card when his series like Alvin or Ender is on target There is no one better in my opinion, but on his off day like pathfinders ending book it leaves a little gap though still better than most.
2. Brandon is in second for me right now. His characters are deep, scenes are epic, but it is when he writes in humor that it goes over the top. Wax, Lyft, and nightblood season his books with laughter for me. Then stoic Wax, and Steris, and moody Kaladin, and Shallon provide the deep currents to contrast the humor creating worlds of depth.
1. Finally L. E. Modesitt jr. Ironically I have discovered him multiple times without realizing it until relatively recently. He has been writing since the 70's. He started with Sci-Fi so the first series I discovered of his was the Time Lords series where the protagonist was Luke(Loki), and who doesn't want to read about someone named after him. Years later I read the Magic of Recluse without realizing it was the same author. His magic system locked me in. All magic users typically use either order (black) or chaos (white), and some rare individuals straddle both leaning one way or the other. Black magic users are usually craftsmen like carpenters, and smiths, where white magic is good for destruction and offensive battle. when I discovered he was the same author more recently I immersed myself into his other available series and have only less than stunned by his worlds once with one of his most recent books. Oh and he like Brandon lives in Utah.
So there you have it. Which authors are your favorites and how do they compare to Brandon.
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1 minute ago, Halyo_Alex said:
I can correct you on at least one point: Hoid's Fortune is not accessed via Feruchemy. Feruchemical Chromium stores the same thing, yes, but that's like saying "Hoid accesses water via bottled water" when he has a glass and a tap of water. The method is different.
As for the others, well, yes, it would counter an Enlightened Truthwatcher, but that's not the point. The point is that we're just trying to screw with Fortune as much as possible and in general we're going to see more Enlightened Truthwatchers than Chromium compounders (currently the score is 2-0).
I was told his fortune was feruchemical, but i am not commited to the idea.
Chromium compounders could be produced safely (hemalugy is a slippery slope) with medallions. With BoM we know we have the potential for at least one. Yeah seeing someone like Wax tossing opponents is very satisfying, but that is barely the tip of the iceburg of their potential. In addition I think there might be two other types of compounders that could be hacked into Chromium Compounders. Both Nicrosil, and Aluminum.
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5 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:
And why is that? Both of them see the future using Fortune, which, like two Atium burners facing off, cancels out and cascades into a feedback loop of different possible outcomes. I see no reason that an Enlightened Truthwatcher could not at least trip up a Chromium Compounder enough to foil their "perfect" predictions and plans.
A chromium compounder has the potential of a near limitless supply of fortune. Hoid uses feruchemical fortune to be where he needs to be, but if he had compounded fortune he would also likely know why he needs to be there. Like I said it counters enlightened truthwatchers, and then it becomes who has more fortune.
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On 5/26/2021 at 5:14 PM, The Technovore said:
Second sentence is in direct contradiction of the word "united" and your first sentence. The condition of each planet once they unite is that they'll be united.
Between that and the ad hominem attacks, I think you've run out of patience for valid arguments. There is nothing here you're saying that you haven't said before, and that goes for most of everyone's posts here. Most of the suppositions here are unconfirmed, unsupported, and likely won't be confirmed anytime soon. No one can actively disprove the other, try as they like. You clearly read the books differently than everyone else here does. Let's stop the useless arguing and be done.
Edit: Admitting bias in a discussion is not as productive as you think. Bias, by definition, is a colored lens that may obscure facts and objective reality. Admitting that you're biased while refusing to change it, and claiming that you're only biased because everyone else is, does nothing to combat bias, but does a LOT to turn a good argument into a rusting cremshow. If you want Scadrial to be fairly represented, then fairly represent it. The more you reach for ways to make it seem favorable, the more clownish it looks. It's a lot like plastic surgery.
First great analysis later in this thread. The (Y,Y,N) might still tip to Scadrial. It seems more like a toss up to me.
The idea that Roshar will develop gunpowder and fire arms seems remote to me. I suspect they rediscover how to create surge fabrials and that will be the basis of how they create projectile weapons. That seems more in character to me of how their tech is developing. The need for stormlight is still a huge barrier to their potential expansion so until that is overcome any conflict would need to take place on Roshar. Obviously Brandon has plans on how that will be overcome, of course by that time investiture magic may be much more homogeneous. I really wish he had done W&W 4 before branching off on external series like Skyward. For that matter I am more interested in Era 3 Scadrial than book 5 stormlight.
As for planet unity it is all a matter of timing. From my perspective of how BoM ended it seems on the verge of being forced to unite in both the north and south because those cities or southern groups who don't unite will be left out in the cold from those who do unite for trade and development. That could leave the united Scadrial much stronger and more capable. From what I see at the end of RoW it looks like they are on the verge of a short very devastating war that will claim the lives of spren, fused, singers, and humans indiscriminately. That could leave Roshar much diminished before a united Roshar gets in a conflict with Scadrial. I could be completely wrong on both counts, but that is how I see them shaping up.
Recognizing my own bias and why I have it or choose it does enable my arguments and leaves me open to potentially persuasive arguments from the other side. It also means I am less likely to accept arguments from the other side conclusively that I feel have been overstated because of their bias. It means that I think many of the arguments that support Roshar are overstating those abilities and so I feel free to overstate Scadrials abilities in return.
On 5/27/2021 at 1:42 PM, Halyo_Alex said:Allow me to debunk this with one reason: Enlightened Truthwatchers.
Compounded Chromium counters enlightened Truthwatchers.
On 5/27/2021 at 4:07 PM, STAG said:Maybe this is something that is widely known, but can mistborn push and pull shard metals?
Yes if they are strong or skilled enough.
Vin when fueled by mist could potentially do it. Compounded Iron or steel could potentially reach that degree of power and skill. BoM would possibly enable it.
19 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:I disagree with this
A Fullborn is much more powerful since they could have an equal weight and strength and heal and go very very fast.
And if he would steal the Edgedancer Honorblade (Abrasion) Game overThey just have a long reload time
Renarin basically one on ones a Thunderclastk in OB if I’m remembering correctly
The Queen reference makes sense
A Fullborn not only has raw power, but also has the potential to anticipate the future and the mind to prepare for it. TLR focused on the longevity and the raw power he held, but would have been much more successful if he had instead focused more on the spiritual and mental powers of his feruchemy. Chromium, Zinc, and Electrum in particular. If he had focused there he could have used his raw power more effectively.
1 hour ago, ScadrianTank said:The deepest ones can't see when they are fully in stone, and true spren can't go through solid objects. So can a Thunderclast even reach the stone?
When thunderclasts form they bring with them the soil and everything which is why they often have moss, fungus, and detritus hanging from them or attached to the stone. They form from whatever material is readily available and are not limited to just stone. Either before forming the body or once the body is broken the Spren could potentially be captured stopping them from forming any new bodies.
@therunner I know you guys think I am ignorant of Radiant capabilities, when in reality I think many arguments supporting them are overstating those abilities, so my response is to address that bias by giving extreme or overstated examples of Scadrian abilities. When I read some of your or others responses I am often left wondering if you even considered what I said. You personally much less than some which is why I still continue to respond regularly to you..
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On 5/22/2021 at 8:59 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:
Yes, generally these conversations assume a united planet. Unless you would like us to assume Roshar can:
- Learn and use Hemalurgy to give a Dustbringer or Edgedancer twin-steel + A-chromium to make a horrifyingly effective killing machine with massive stockpiles of metal thanks to Soulcasting. After all, Hemalurgy is open to everyone even more than Surgebinding is, and as long as they keep below 4 spikes, they should be fine.
- Learn how to make and use medallions
- Learn how to make and use Bands of Mourning-esque objects
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Either intercept or win over people involved with ettmetal and use it for either Leecher cubes or (very theoretically, no book backing for this) even Surge cubes
- Even better: they can combine ettmetal with spren fabrials to form devices such as Leecher-painrial grenades capable of draining and incapacitating Metalborn nearby
- Convince, bribe, or coerce the very very very few Twinborn capable of posing any threat into joining them (there's what, five total of the real dangerous types combined at any given time, maybe?)
Additionally, Scadrial better hope we're assuming united planets, considering:
- The North is on the brink of civil war, and this has not been solved, and in fact is probably worse after Bands considering they think Wax killed Kelesina:
Getting metalborn abilities through Hemalurgy is a slippery slope since it opens the recipient up to manipulation. I am not contesting that the two planet would need to be internally united, but what is the condition of each once they unite. At this point from my perspective Scadrial will likely resolve any differences peacefully, but Roshar is looking like it is going to have an apocalyptic war with spren dying on both sides because of Navai's discoveries.
You can also expect that both sides will adopt each others tech and weapons and even some of each others magic. Rosharan's probably wont make medallions instead they will steal them and yes they will probably learn to use hemalurgy, but that could create more of a disadvantage. While Scadrians will quickly steal and adopt Rosharan fabrials which will supercharge their own metalborn Realmatics advancement and some will bond some left over Spren. However none of that will likely happen until after a first conflict between them.
Another advantage Scadiral will have is in weapons development and production. Scadrial already has an industrial mass production technology while Roshar is still one off craftsman based with no mass production capability. For now Scadrian tech meshes with Scadrian magic better than Rosharan magic meshes with Rosharan Tech. Scadrial is in a postioin to produce Fabrials than Roshar is in a position to use Hemalurgy or produce Medallions. Also Rosharan magic has an inborn instant kill to fused and radiants in the magic itself that when Scadrians realize it will doom Radiants and Fused because it can kill their spren outright. At the moment their is no equivalent in Metalborn magic.
On 5/22/2021 at 8:59 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:- The South is fighting the "Deniers" (which they are worried enough about to seek out the Bands of Mourning to fight)
- The North and South have hardly any relationship of any kind besides initial drafts of hypothetical trade agreements made by a few lone people that neither government has even had a look at yet, much less approved, and certainly not any close military alliance
With the threat of the BoM negotiations will almost certainly succeed and war will be averted. If war does occur Scadrial will be in an even better military position against Roshar due to the newly developed weapons and tactics.
On 5/23/2021 at 0:41 AM, therunner said:No it has not, NoScad is still mostly composed of independent city states
City states that are on the verge of being unified to create a stronger trade alliance to work with the south.
On 5/23/2021 at 0:41 AM, therunner said:What flack? Flack explodes at set height before hand, and Radiant can change height by 50 meters under two seconds, more than enough to avoid it. And what thousands of bullets? To drop 500 meters (your stated number on effective range of rifle shooting) would take them ~6 seconds, in that time most rifle man could take two shots at best (and since they would have to adjust their aiming by ~45-30 degrees they would most likely fail to take the second shot), and they would need to be less then 250 meters away from intended drop point of Radiant. So unless you have at least 500 riflemen ready inside a circle with radius 250 meters, you will not even squeeze out one thousand shots.
Of course you also assume
- That there is one Radiant dropping not multiple.
- That all the bullets and all the shrapnel is aluminum, metal that is expansive enough that nobleman cannot easily make weapons out of it. Because if the bullets and shrapnel are not aluminum, reverse lashing simply makes them hit off target.
- That Radiant start attack before disabling at least some weapons of Scadrial, be it by soulcasting from CR, or by dropping few 100 kg rocks first from 2-3 km high or by having Thunderclast attack at similar time.
And you accuse others of bias?
For starters I never claimed not to be biased. To claim that you all are not is disingenuous.
Scadrial already has machine guns and timing devices so yes flack and thousands of bullets. Flack does not need to be altitude dependent, it can be contact and timing dependent.
I also don't assume 1 radiant but dozens with no cover dropping into massed fire from cover.
Only windrunners have reverse lashings and they have never been tested against high velocity projectiles so off target may be mm's not feet or yards. In addition reverse lashing needs something physical to draw the projectiles they don't just work in open air and shardshields cannot be lashed.
Radiants would be under fire from the minute they come into range. They wouldn't know to go so high until after the first engagement, nor is it realistic that they would have 100's of kg of Rock 2 to 3 km's high. Even if they could accuracy from that height would be extremely low especially against a scattered force under cover.
It is clear to me that you really don't know what I am assuming.
On 5/23/2021 at 0:41 AM, therunner said:And Scadrial has practiced no war for three centuries, so they have no tactics or strategy to speak of, and no idea how to use what little weapons they have truly effectively.
Sun Tzu's army also did not have flying siege platforms with swords that cut through anything like butter, and people that can heal severed spines, lost arms, or bullet/arrows to the head.
You are making some very huge assumptions. Switzerland hasn't engaged in war in centuries eight, but they maintain one of the most effective military forces in the world. To assume there are no military forces on Scadrial is beyond Naive.
Floating platforms vs actual airships I'll take air ships. Magic swords vs guns and explosives I'll take the guns. There is a reason why the saying of bringing a knife to a gun fight was created. Magic healing that can be stopped by a simple bullet and if placed correctly lead to instant death is barely an advantage. Then an instant death weapon against Rosharans built right into their own magic should give all of you pause.
I considered addressing your whole rant, but I am disappointing that you didn't really think through your responses. There are no anti-mists as of now so you cannot assume there will be. Odium is trapped regardless. Really I lost patience with the rest of your rant because it seemed as if your own bias and desperation fueled it not your usual rational arguments. You are sounding more like Frustration than yourself. Oh and you can't count on suppressor fields since those must be keyed to the specific kind of investiture and Roshar doesn't know that nor can they easily discover it, but some metalborn can.
Thanks for admitting that the ultimate metalborn will defeat any Radiant or Fused, even though I think you are wrong about that as well. I think it is a toss up who would win and depend on circumstances.
On 5/24/2021 at 6:49 PM, DoctaDajman said:So this is sort of besides the point as I just need some clarification. Does plate block it just due to the amount of investiture there? I know there are substances and pieces of investiture that basically nullify use of the systems like aluminum. In the alloy of law wax mentioned that if you just mixed aluminum with another metal it would still act like aluminum in as far as making it immune to pushes. (Hence all the aluminum guns and bullets). Is there an alloy using aluminum that could withstand a few strikes from a shardblade? And if there is an alloy that would nullify the edge of a shardblade wouldn't it be fair to say that same alloy could damage shardplate as if it weren't invested at all? Straight up I haven't even read way of kings yet. I just love the world building and am asking for clarification vs the rest of this thread. I am lame and can't help myself looking at spoilers and reading the wikis and forums for topics like this.
1st Duralumin is an alloy of aluminum so might be immune to steel pushes.
As it stands if aluminum is thick enough it can't be cut by even Nightblood. See oathbringer. Brandon has been quoted as saying that any thickness cannot be cut by a shardblade. Most of the fused weapons are also aluminum and never get cut and are capable of killing radiants.
Can aluminum nullify the defensive affect of shardplate. Most on this thread don't think so, but I suspect it might be able to get through because as you pointed out it is never damaged by invested attacks. It does other weird things as well and is not well understood yet so from my perspective any guess about what it might be capable of has worth.
Aluminum does hemalugically take away power. If Wax had shot Miles with aluminum bullets they would likely have killed him if they hit him in the heart or head since it also neutralizes invested healing in at least the region of penetration. And that is where we get the problem. It might not penetrate shardplate because of how soft it is.
Radiants are OP, and like Superman have their form of Kryptonite. Finish the Radiant novels then decided. I am in the vast minority in thinking that metalborn have more than a passing chance in a conflict with Radiants. I think the key to that is compounding not strait allomancy or feruchemy.
Welcome to the shard.
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19 minutes ago, Frustration said:
Yes a tank dropped in the middle of pre ww1 forces isn't garunteed to be almost unstopable, uh, no, they will destroy.
There will be far more Windrunners/skybreakers than there are Coinshots, and flying ships would take years to build but could be destroyed in seconds
I never mentioned a Tank that would come later.
It doesn't matter if you think the numbers favor Windrunners/Skybreakers over Coinshots. A you don't know that will be the case, and B it is not just coinshots that they need to worry about.
22 minutes ago, Frustration said:Elendel basin is on the verge of civil war, and north and south don't trust each other, I think it's best for you to assume both sides are unified, as Roshar is a lot closer to that than Scadrial is. I also find it ammusing you think Scadrial needs Rosharan magic to beat Roshar.
No that has been resolved.
No it is a weakness of Rosharan magic that it can be co-opted by anyone.
Given the current situations it is more likely that Roshar is divided so making an assumption of unity is naive especially given the warlike nature of both the Alethi and Odium.
27 minutes ago, Frustration said:They can go through the ground beneath them and fly how do you propose to trap them in a box? And a net wouldn't work.
Break their dirt bodies first since they are surrounded. Nothing says there will be rock to form the body from.
28 minutes ago, Frustration said:There are plenty of Thunderclast.
Draining Stormlight won't do anything, neither will draining Voidlight, and they make bodies almost instantly.
You don't know that. Any of it.
29 minutes ago, Frustration said:Saying that they would take more force when moving towards them asumes they get hit, which vastly decreases the faster they go. And no, an ordinary marksmen isn't shooting bullets out of the air, with enough accuracy to hit something around a corner. That is supperhuman
Thousands of bullets and flack, of course they will be hit, and most wont have armor. Even the ones that do it will be a source of stormlight loss because of impacts if not entirely ineffective against some projectiles.
31 minutes ago, Frustration said:highly doubt it will be possible to use medalions to become fullborn. In fact I'd go so far as to say inpossible.
In order to burn the nicrocil you need to be a nicroburst, so that is your allomantic metal, but medalions contain two metals that you need to use so you would have to be able to burn both of them something you can't do, esspecially since you can only use one medallion at a time.
Mistborn are non-existent and evern in era three they will be rare, Brandon isn't putting something in that can make any random non into a fullborn.
Sorry I don't think you have thought this through and I disagree. You actually only need one medallion at a time to become a Fullborn if the first medallion grants Nicrosil compounding.
34 minutes ago, Frustration said:No they aren't Scadrial has never dealt with Shards, and the powers the Rosharans have are far beyond them, they haven't practiced war in over three hundred years, even our moddern police forces which are much better equiped wouldn't be able to hanndle a single oath four, and even the US Military would be hard pressed to fight one.
Dealing with shards makes no difference since Roshar has practiced archaic war not modern war. They are not equivalent. Tsun Tsu's army would be wiped out in short order by Sherman's battalion. There really is no comparison. Only later would Rosharans start to get up to speed. You are overestimating Rosharan Magic, weapons, and tactics.
39 minutes ago, Frustration said:Saying a nicroburst could cause a thunderclast to explode is like saying they will instantly kill a human as they burn up their soul, it's wrong
No its more like what happened with the light, anti-light in the gemstone. I thought that was obvious. Another thing I thought was obvious was that the stunning of the Spren would be caused by the massive surge followed by no void light at all. At which point they are very vulnerable to capture at the very least. One other weakness to Thunderclasts is the material at hand. Maybe that is why we have seen them so seldom.
Your loyalty and bias toward Roshar is admirable if misplaced. honestly I would have skipped responding to you like I have been for days if I didn't have time on my hands and if someone else had responded. I would have skipped it not because you have particularly insightful arguments, but just the opposite. At least the runner and Technivore among others force me to consider how to respond and frequently bring up challenging points even if I don't always see eye to eye with them. Really though you thought this discussion was out of ideas and yet you still respond to me. You keep saying the same things, and think that proves your bias.
2 minutes ago, The Technovore said:Yes, yes we are. We established multiple times that we're assuming a United Roshar and a United Scadrial, to keep things simple. Otherwise, you're dealing with complicated geopolitics for both planets and an interplanetary war. That makes things complicated for both planets and is generally no fun.
Yes but what shape will the united Roshar be in. You cannot assume it will simply consist of a merger of the current forces. You can assume that Scadrial might because their political situation appears to be mostly resolve or at least on the verge of it.
5 minutes ago, The Technovore said:Cool, let's start talking about all the Metalborn that can defect to Roshar and potentially help them figure out the anti-light equivalent to the mists!
Aluminum is the anti-metalborn answer. Of course it is also a general response to investiture as well. Metalborn don't need the mists to operate so anti-mists are kind of a non starter. It is the difference between stormlight and metal. one is a powersource, and the other is a bridge so what works for one wont necessarily work for the other, except Aluminum.
9 minutes ago, The Technovore said:Two inconvenient facts:
1. RoW happens 5 to 10 years before Alloy of Law. Kaladin went from proto Radiant to Oath 4 in about 3. There are some 200 other Radiants currently progressing. You're looking--conservatively--at about 100 Oath 4 Radiants.
2. Adolin's entire story arc in RoW was ensuring that were absolutely would be more Radiants.
Kaladin could very well be the exception since there are only 2 modern 4th oath Radiants and it has been stated that Higher oath radiants were few in the past compared to the total numbers. Again that was a relative statement so doesn't define specific limits. For now 4th oath radiants are about 1/100 if your estimate of total Radiants is accurate. I suspect Shallon with be 4th oath soon which will make it 1/70.
The developments in RoW also potentially insures a drastic decline in the Spren population.
16 minutes ago, The Technovore said:Can you point out to me a place in Roshar or Scadrial that is completely and utterly devoid of stone? The funny thing about planets suitable for human life is that they generally have a crust made from rock.
Not all rock is equal or structurally durable, and thunderclasts are limited to the available materials.
17 minutes ago, The Technovore said:Okay, this is a fair point, actually. Scadrian's have access to an ability that can make anyone a super genius, and abilities that make for wonderful spies and scouts. However, this is ignoring the fact that Rosharans also have tactical geniuses, also have Realmatic geniuses, and also are capable of spying and strategizing. I think Scadrial would edge them out in the tactics and laymen weapons department, but do not assume that Rosharans are bumbling fools that wouldn't be hitting them hard and adapting too.
Again: Roshar has 5 to 10 years to advance in tech and tactics. Assuming United Roshar, that means the full R&D might of a Urithiru where ancient Singers, Heralds, and humans are working together. It's not like we're literally sending WoK-style spear formations at them.
Yes potentially tactical geniuses in medievil warfare, but that doesn't compare to late 19th and early 20th century tactics. the differences in Tech is not 5-10 years but centuries. The difference in timeline is 5-10 years. Not the same. With their military focus Roshar could probably get up to speed quicker than other cultures, but would experience drastic losses in the beginning, and Scadrians wouldn't stop advancing as well.
23 minutes ago, The Technovore said:My loyalty? I have no loyalty, except to the (fictional fantasy universe lol) facts. The accusation of bias--while gently and humbly delivered props for that--is somewhat laughable in the face of your willingness to afford Scadrial every advantage including asserting that a significant population of rifleman are going to even remotely resemble Wax. I've said it before--this isn't supposed to be a "Roshar good, Scadrial bad" discussion or the other way around. It was supposed to be a hypothetical scenario to play with ideas and conflicting magic systems and see who we think would ultimately have the advantage. If you feel Scadrial isn't being represented, why not bring up the "Hemalurgic Fullborn abomination" scenario that's been brought up? A United Scadrial actually has the power to make Fullborn. That argument alone ended the last S v R thread, why don't we talk about that? Instead we're grasping at straws, floundering about, and ignoring the canon of the books repeatedly in a floundering attempt to assert that Metalborn should be able to slap Radiants around like ragdolls when no intellectually honest and sufficiently read individual would even entertain the notion.
End Rant.
You will notice my own implied bias in the statement which I have chosen because I think Scadrial has been under represented. In actual fact I think this would be a nasty near equal contest with terrible casualties on both sides. From this time forward even Spren and Fused can be utterly destroyed not just become dead eyes or insane. I don't ignore the books cannon I just don't always agree with what others think is cannon. I really don't think metalborn would slap Radiants around like ragdolls, but I don't think the inverse is true either. Since I see a lack of that perspective I choose to focus on ways metalborn and Scadrians could challenge Radiants.
First before we address the potential to create fullborn in era 2 let me address one of the supposed uber Radiant attacks. It has been stated by some that a bondsmith might be able to steal the bond from a metalborn, but because mistings and ferrings abilities don't rely on bonds for their magic like Radiants do don't think there would be a bond for a bondsmith to steal.
Because of the nature of the abilities of a Nicrosil compounder to be able to store pure investiture there is the potential for them to become a full born. First they would need to get medallions (avoid hemalugy because of the spirit holes it creates) for each of the metal arts which you might need as few as 6 to 8 of each can store up to 3 powers. After the N-C stores each ability they compound that ability to gain both power and duration of its use. Then they do the same with each other medallion. Once they have stored and compounded each of the metalborn abilities they can then proceed to add the other 30 metalmind to compound those for both duration and power and stock up on those same metals for allomancy. It would be easiest to start with a N-C, but might be achieved using a Nicrosil compounder medallion as well.
As a fullborn the N-C would be able to compound but would miss out on other forms of resonance that normal twins might develop. They might also need to be using 2 power at once to access their full adopted abilities. The limit to their degree of ability would be the storage capacity of their many metalminds and the sever leaning to really use those powers most effectively singly and in combination. The more likely situation to using Nicrosil this way would be squads of complimentary twinborn where they can become masters of specific abilities instead of a Jack of Trades of abilities. Any fullborn might want to master being a sparker first, followed by a slider to give them time to plan how to use their abilities most effectively on the verge of combat. Aluminum even for a fullborn would still be a potential problem, and perhaps more so. I think we will see aluminum cuffs in era 3 because it can potentially cause metalborn problems and inhibit their abilities. I think a fullborn created this way could fight at a 4th oath radiant to a draw and depending on what we 5th oaths able to do maybe them too in one on one combat. The balance might be tipped by any additional factors for either.
I have shied away from hemalurgy for the same reason Hoid does. Too much downside for the power. Where a bondsmith might not affect other metalborn, they would almost certainly destroy a hemalurgic abomination which is why Harmony probably wont use Marsh in any conflict. Any Radiant who dared to use Hemalurgy would be increasingly vulnerable to being controlled and destroyed. I did think about it though. It is likely that only an aluminum compounder could use hemalurgy to their advantage to become a fullborn because they have the potential to erase any spirit holes created by the process while permanently adding connections to the various powers into their identity so might not become a hemalugic abomination. Thanks for the hemalurgic abomination mention though. Medallion method is safer and potentially more effective.
Assuming that I haven't read or haven't sufficiently read to come to my own conclusions as to what is and is not cannon is also disingenuous. I don't think I have accused any of you of not following cannon in the books only in disagreeing with me on what is cannon or more often in over emphasizing some potentials while underplaying others. In response I have chosen to strongly emphasize some counter potentials while downplaying others.
Thanks for the fullborn challenge. I suppose we could go into more specifics on how a fullborn would fare against the current ultimate Radiant. It would probably still come down to whether one or the other could arrange the situation to their advantage not to who has more powerful magic. Even the smallest thing could probably tip the scales in a fight at that level and I hate to consider the collateral damage that would be involved. That fight might make a great case study of the magics. Even how the fullborn was created would likely affect the contest. Of course that also opens the potential to squads of varied metaborn and squads of varied Radiants clashing. The learning curve for a created fullborn would be huge.
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9 hours ago, therunner said:
We have no clue what nicrosil compounding does, and for medallions the nicrosil portion works like Copper (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316/#e11247) and Compounding Copper might not do much (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122/#e3327).
We also don't know if you can store abilities granted by Medallions into different metalminds, as those are technically foreign to the Body/Soul.
They would be nothing like Revan, as Revan was fighting against forces he first intentionally depleted, and whose battle tactics he devised along with top general that seceded with him.
Sure they will think fast and come to conclusions with great speed, but they need information to work off, so they would need to see tactics/strategies and powers first, they are not psychic. For rioting soldiers -> suppressors, so Rosharan's are shielded and Scadrial forces can be randomly disrupted by lashing suppresors. Also Radiants are shielded thanks to being heavily Invested + Plate, *-form Singers are also most likely a bit more resistant since they are already under similar effect, and Fused are heavily invested Cognitive Shadows.
But mental manipulation is a nice idea, so let's unleash Thrill on unprepared Scadrians, and maybe add Heart of Revel on their command center.
Also why are you bringing up other fictional universes with completely different rules?
Of course each side would try to play to their strengths and would prepare their strategies accordingly. This however means that Rosharans and their Radiants would try to force encounters in close quarters, and since they have much better mobility they would be able to do so more often than not.
Scadrial has access to exactly one perpendicularity on their planet, and to only two on Roshar and both of those are not easily accessible (mountain peak and underwater; either at Origin, or in the middle of super-hurricane) and so would really complicate invasion.
- Radiants with gravitation can easily fly 2km high (out of range of anything Scadrial has available at this time), and drop down under 10 seconds under six lashings. Since they cancel normal gravity when lashing, any direction is as easy to travel into so the height is not a problem. And since Kal (at 3rd Oath) flew few thousands km as fast as he could using only the light he could carry, I think they are safe on that front. So these Radiant can appear in the sky over the Scadrian camp, and drop down faster than anyone could shoot them (and they can form their spren into shields, and since they are right on top of them, they would shield most of their body).
- Radiants with Transportation can literally appear in the middle of camp, again forcing close quarters battle, which favours Radiants a lot. (and they could carry some other Radiants with them).
- Stonewards could probably form tunnels and lead the rest to the camp, again popping up in the middle of the camp.
- Thunderclasts can form wherever they want, so they would simply form, again, in the middle of Scadrian camp, behind the cannons (or you know, right under the cannons, disabling them just by appearing).
Only Scadrian cannons can have range of thousands of yards, their rifles have at best range of ~1000 meters (and that is effective range which assumes every other shot misses), and revolvers have effective range of tens of meters only, at best 50. Also Scadrial has absolutely no fabrials that can serve as ability enhancers, unless you mean medallions, but even those are not exactly making someone much more deadly from range.
Wax's skills are completely and utterly legendary, in Era 3 they will have comic books of him for christ sake. To claim that anyone could train to be that good is utterly ridiculous. He had one in a generation talent, maybe even rarer, you will never see armies with his accuracy, only individuals maybe.
And the only rapid-fire weapons Scadrial has are few relatively new machine guns, and those are comparable to gatling guns, which were accurate to somewhere between 180 and 800 meters (and again this is effective range, which assumes every other shot misses). These are distances Radiant can cover in seconds with lashings.
There are maybe a 100 total Metalborn alive that could challenge 3rd Oath Radiant, and a few dozen at best that could do that to 4th Oath Radiant, mostly good F-steel twins. Killed Metalborn is lost forever, killed Radiant gets replaced relatively fast, especially in the middle of war.
It might snap some, but since Sazed changed it, most snap so easily that nearly everyone that can has already snapped.
Thunderclasts would not do Scadrians the favor of appearing away from their camp, they would simply form right under. So no cannons or artillery (unless you had a system of camps where each one kept some cannons pointed at the others, to which I say there are more than one thunderclast), explosives would wipe out your own forces and would only temporarily disable Thunderclast (until it formed a new body). Those hammers are probably not ordinary hammers but Shard hammers, wielded by plated individuals, so nothing Scadrial could do on their own (unless there were multiple F-pewter ferring that survived the initial appearance).
Also the stone body is only effectively a puppet, the Thunderclast itself is the Fused soul within, so the only thing that might hurt it are Leechers, but there are two complications
- Chromium burns fast, (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/101/#e881) and Cognitive Shadows are heavily invested, and Fused even more so.
- Chromium works like larkin do, and larkin don't kill Fused or Cognitive Shadows, hence leecher might take away their Voidlight, but the Fused animating the stone would remain unharmed. What effect would have that on the stone body is a good question, but to leech away all the Voidlight would probably take at least at least a dozen seconds of sustained contact, which would be detrimental to health of a Leecher.
Not to mention that Thunderclasts would most likely not attack alone, add in a couple of Lightweaver to take advantage of the chaos and it would get real fun.
Your under estimating the difference and tactics of rifle tactics vs pike tactics in the conflict. Dropping from above doesn't guarantee a decisive strike but it does guarantee being open to crossfire, and Scadrian forces would likely not be confined to just the ground either. A few radiants have a seeming mobility advantage, but Scadrians have the potential to have a more general mobility advantage in the air.
You also keep assuming that there will be many available Radiants, but at this time the Spren in general don't want to bond anyone and even an increase in their number doesn't guarantee a large number would bond anyone. Since Rosharans are enslaving Spren wholesale when they can there is the distinct possiblity that the existing spren would choose to bond with Scadrian invaders to end the wholesale slavery. In additions the vast majority of Radiant would not be of 4th oath and above and so would lack those defensive capabilities leaving them open to wholesale slaughter by the more advanced weapons and tactics of the Scadrians. If there are only about 100 metalborn who could take a 4th oath Radiant then it is a good thing there are only 3 Radiants of that oath thus far and no guarantee of there being more. Nor is there a guarantee that there will be more radiants to progress through the oath at all in the future beyond what exist now and the likelyhood that the number of Spren will actually decline due to the current war on Roshar.
A thunderclast can also be dealt with by trapping the Voidspren in an aluminum cage or net either before they form the thunderclast or after demolishing the stone body. Oh and they only form a stone body if there is stone to form it from and they seem to be exceedingly rare. They also need time to form the stone body so forming in the Scadrian camp is a recipe for being demolished before they finish. Draining stormlight from the Spren also effectively disables it.
Wax's real genius isn't in his marksmanship but in his defensive and manipulation abilities, which is why he survives so many encounters he gets involved in. Even the most talented or skilled marksman would have trouble hitting him. The Rosharan's don't have the same defensive skills since they rely strongly on being able to absorb damage instead of avoiding it. The faster a Radiant lashes toward the rifles the more of an impact they will need to absorb from the bullets and other projectiles and again due to their tech Scadrians don't need to clump up so can effectively attack the few Radiants who rush in from virtually all sides from cover.
One other potential weapon in the Scadrian arseal are Nicrosil compounding medalions which have the potential to turn almost any soldier into a fullborn for a time. You don't actually need to have a large portion of the population to have snapped even though a war would likely cause that as well.
I was siting related abilities from a different universe, but one that Brandon used as a basis to his allomancy. The mechanics of emotional allomancy allow for a form of battle meditation in the Cosmere. You think a Zinc compounder commander would be working alone? No. They would be able to get the intelligence nessisary to determine where and when Rosharan's were massing for battle and direct fire at the optimal time to break them up. Any attacks with small Rosharan forces could be overwhelmed in short order by the weapons, magic, and tactics of Scadrians. The melee tactics of Roshar are history to Scadiral so are easily anticipated and countered, but Roshar has never seen anything like the tactics Scadrial would use.
I get your loyalty to the Rosharans and the surface advantage you and others have for them, but you still haven't been able to convince me that the surface advantages or Roshar translate to an actual decisive advantage on their part over Scadrians. Please don't mistake me. I can see how each side could leverage an advantage temporarily over the other, just not decisively so overall. I don't expect to be able to convince all of you of that. I choose to side with Scadrial because no one else seems to want to. If the discussion had been more balanced up to this point I would probably have played both sides, but it hasn't so I picked a side. The more we discuss this the more restricted I think Rosharn magic and tech are.
Odds are that when the conflict actually takes place Scadrial will be in the position of being able to orbitally bombard Roshar and space will be so populated so as to vastly increase the distances of travel in the CR.
Cannons can have ranges in the miles/km's, and some Rifles over a mile of effective range though it is a rare person indeed who can make that shot. I should know I am a marksman. My effective range with my rifles is about 1/2 km.
Larkins do almost immediately strip all the void light from Fused though effectively rendering them powerless. Oh and fast is a relative term not a definitive limit. You know a nicroburst might cause a thunderclast to explode and then the spen would be disabled for a time. To avoid injury use a primer cube grenade for the affect from cover.
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6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:
Scadrials fabrials are not military weapons and you cannot assume they will be. Show me one that is weapons grade that they currently have.
As does ettmetal. (Also, you can throw things. Painrial or suppressor "grenade", perhaps?)
In the hands of a Nicrosil compounder every metalborn granting medallion becomes weapons grade. A Soulbearer can store investiture in a metalmind so given at least 32 metalminds they can store the entire range of metalborn abilities and with at least one other they can systematically compound each and everyone of those abilities to grant extended use of them and scale them up to first generation power level. They could then train and practice to cross combine them in any number of ways to create a fully compounding fullborn with the ability to enhance or magnify all their allies.
A Zinc compounder would be like Revan able to see, understand, and counter any Rosharan tactic or strategy before they were able to use it, and to use their riot abilities to create a form of battle meditation creating a more cohesive force with their allies and disrupting the cohesiveness of enemy soldiers.
I am telling you these are just 2 ways that show Scadrians are seriously underestimated on this topic.
I think one of the main underlying assumptions behind that underestimation is that metalborn and radiants would play by the same tactics and rules of engagement, but that is naive given both the difference in Tech and culture. I suggested Arthur and Sherman intentionally instead of some other civil war era general. Frustrations contention of Scadrians being unable to reach the CR is moot since at this point that is the only avenue open to facilitating this conflict so it must be assumed that they can, besides there are Scadrian on Roshar already so it is possible.
This would not be line up and fight conflict favoring Roshar, but a cover and shoot the enemy conflict. Yes some Radiants can fly and be shot out of the open sky. any massing of Rosharan forces leaves them vulnerable to artillery and rapid fire weapons long before they are in range to fight. Rosharan fabrials and weapons have ranges in feet, but Scadrian tech has ranges in thousands of yards and their fabrials serve as ability enhancers making their magic and tech that much more deadly from any range.
Frustration also made the statement that it was David's faith that allowed him to win against Goliath, but his Faith in God in reality gave him the confidence to try. It was his skill with the sling that won the day. A skill that he thanked God for, never the less it was his work and practice with it that developed that God given skill. Wax's skill with the gun is attributed to the same dedication to develop his skill, which means that anyone who worked hard enough at it could achieve skill at or near his level with time. Plus with rapid fire weapons you don't need as much skill to hit a target.
I will reiterate that in my opinion this conflict will almost never develop into a toe to toe fight, and if in the rare instance that it does there are metalborn that could be a serious challenge to any oath level of metalborn. In addition to that it is also likely that the conflict itself would snap additional metalborn. All Scadrian soldiers would probably carry a small supply of allomantic metal both in case they snap and as a reserve for those who have. Since some continue to bring up Thunderclasts I will address this. Seeming ways to fight them is with hammers, so use concusive force to disable them, and use weapons which drain investiture. As such leeches would be dangerous to them permanently as would artillery to continually disable them. A big cannon ball would do the job of shattering their stone bodies over and over. Add explosives to that and they might never be able to take more than a few steps before being demolished. Again from a long distance. If the ever got close enough to actually engage the Scadrians they better pray there are no leechers among the metalborn.
I am sorry you will all need to do better to prove to me that this conflict is as one sided as you seem to believe. I don't buy it i think you are overlooking and underestimating far to many factors to be convinced.
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Following Kagi's metal day at school several of the students pointed, ridiculed, and bullied him thinking him to be an easy target since he didn't have a recognizable metal on his arms. One said he was nothing but a gnat, another pretended to trip into him knocking him down during break. He kept a stiff upper lip throughout the day, but inside he determined that learn all he could to show his abilities weren't useless. Since his father was a craftsman he regularly visited other craftsmen in his free time. From his father he was learning the basics of pottery. Just down the street was a smith that let him watch as he worked the metal. There were coopers and carpenters that let him spend time with them. His father encouraged him to explore skills of the various crofters and merchants in town to help him discover what he wanted to pursue as he got older.
Kagi discovered by accident as he got angry at the bullying that he could store the part of his identity that inclined him to anger causing him to be more patient. Like soothing could cause some emotions to become prominent by minimizing others he could focus and refine parts of his identity by minimizing others.
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14 hours ago, therunner said:
In that case you are arguing that guns are deadly, not that Metalborn are. That would make gun only a temporary advantage (until Roshar has comparable weaponry), and one that is only useful when stocked with aluminum ammo.
Jasnah is an utter monster on battlefield, see RoW, and that is when she is holding back.
Also, most Metalborn simply are not as good a shot as Wax is, so on hand saying most Radiants are not as good as Kaladin, but on the other hand assuming all Metalborn are expert marksmen like Wax is disingenuous.
Plate would stop shrapnel easily, Scadrial does not have .50 cal machine guns nor recoil-less rifles. Also, aluminum is still too expansive to even make guns out of, so they will not be able to fill every weapon they have with aluminum shrapnel or ammo.
This ignores various forms of Singers, which use only lesser spren, which are far more numerous, and those could be very deadly (Stormform, Warform). Most of those Metalborn however are only Misting and Ferrings (and around 1/3 has powers that are not suited to combat, so are effectively regular human), Scadrial would have low hundreds of natural Twinborn at best.
Except for that WoB you are not taking into account, but I do, which tells us otherwise.
Hazekiller rounds are in no way comparable to high velocity armor piercing slugs, none of them have any such properties. The ones with ceramic tips are used against coinshots, as they cannot push on the ceramic. Those against pewterarms are simply larger and filled with more gunpowder, but not armor piercing in any way, shape or form. So yes, we do need to project much more development before they have anything approaching armor piercing rounds.
(Sidenote: The fact that anti-coinshot rounds use ceramic and not aluminum, and that aluminum is not in anti-Thug shots, also shows just how expansive aluminum is in Era 2).
Modern weapons can shoot up to ~1200 meters (9mm guns) or ~3000 meters (high powered rifles or machine guns), but the bullet stops being effective in far lower heights (roughly a halfway, or 1/3 way up), so even then you could no kill anyone higher than ~1500 meters, and that is late 20th century weapons. Scadrial is a century behind in this, and if we are being generous their most powerful rifles could kill someone ~800 meters high in the air, if shot straight up. Radiant under Lashing can cover this distance under 8 seconds under 4 lashings, so they would be exposed to fire for a relatively short amount of time + they would be moving at high speeds (and they are a small target).
Soulcast from CR, no range needed and no cost to Radiants.
Odium spren 'made' to detect surgebinding could not detect Lightweaving and Seekers cannot detect pulses muffled by Coppercloud (or those of Well), hence Lightweaving might be 'quiet' enough to escape detection. F-tin/A-bronze twinborn would have a better shot at this.
If this is your measure for usefulness in combat, then 2nd Oath Elsecaller is the most useful combat oriented magic user, they can camp out in CR and soulcast people away (or just Soulcast air around people into oil+flame, or prison). They could take out any Mistborn, Feruchemist, Twinborn and even a Fullborn (if they caught him when not tapping or burning, as then they would not be more invested than a person).
Half-shards are literally designed as military equipment and painrials are shown multiple times to be used in combat. Also, I already did show them in my previous post, but once again:
- Half-shard shield - smaller discount shardplate of comparable durability, to help against gunfire
- Painrial - shown to cripple everyone with pain, attach to Investiture conductive net or find a way to make it ranged and you have something resembling granade, or you can just use it in melee combat
- Supperssor fabrials - to negate magic of opposing forces denying them Metalborn abilities, disabling their ettmetal weapons and craft in certain radius
- Attractor fabrial attached to large piece of iron/steel (some chosen metal) set to a timer (they have watches) - lash this in the direction of Scadrial forces and the attractor fabrial will draw in the same substance, pulling away guns/ammo etc. temporarily taking away weapons.
- Conjoiner can be used to create a basic gun, just modify the mechanism powering Kaladin's gauntlet.
He won't make more Fused because he does not want to invest himself on Roshar even more than he already has. But he is still willing to make exceptions, and since this thread is Scadrian vs Rosharan magic, we can include his making Fused even when only as a response against Harmony making more Metalborn.
I never compared arrows to bullets, I only mentioned arrows as an example of how Plate seems to be very heavy (as the momentum of the arrow did not even nudge it). Also, while penetration mechanism of arrow and a bullet differ (cutting vs pushing) their momenta are actually comparable, as typical arrow is ~4x as heavy as a bullet, but moves ~1/4 of the speed, giving comparable momenta. Of course in kinetic energy bullet will win roughly a 4x.
No I am argueing that guns in the hands of metalborn are extremely deadly. That some metalborn war capabilities lie in R&D of counter Radiant weaponry and tactics. That some metalborn are deadly all on their own and can stand toe to toe as well as kill any oath level of Radiants from a distance. I finally like some have said that many metalborn abilities lend themselves to lethal covert war tactics that Radiants would find hard to counter.
Sure Jasnah is a terror to ordinary soldiers in combat, but her real advantage is in her soulcasting not her weapon skills. Any number of metalborn could match her combat prowess or even remove her from combat at a distance before her soulcasting became an issue.
Most thugs and tin metal born could match Wax in marksmanship and marksmanship with guns is much easier to train than melee martial skills. Our own modern marines are near as good a Wax fresh out of boot camp. You don't need an outstanding marksman to shoot a Radiant out of the sky just enough bullets. Gravity lashings and velocity toward the marksman only increases the momentum of the bullets and projectiles that hit. Honestly I think you have been overestimating Radiants this whole time.
Attack from the CR assumes that a commander would leave that back door open because for now the CR is the only option to get to Roshar, and Radiants are even more vulnerable to attack from metalborn there than planetside. You really wouldn't need many gun armed troops there to wipe out any group of Radiants there.
The momentum of Radiants falling from the stratosphere ensures their death from the crossfire coming at them from below and the airships in the sky. Getting to the stratosphere with big rocks might even exhaust their stormlight in the process. which is another death sentence in the mean time their army is being shelled into oblivion by extremely accurate metalborn gunners. Magic and technology work hand in hand on Scadrial creating breakthroughs for both.
Anit-thug rounds are practically armor piercing.
Odium is not making more fused and only converts regular pre-existing lesser spren. Stormfather can't just make more spren, and newly born spren are little more than children for potentially centuries so wouldn't be immediately useful, however war could potentially snap any Scadrian involved vastly increasing the numbers of metalborn.
Half shard are useful against a melee weapon wielding foe, but against rifle armed soldiers they are almost useless. Painrials again have very limited use unless you can get very close. This will almost never be a hand to hand fight between Radiants and Metalborn. Much of it wont even be close range. Why when you can just shoot someone would you ever let them in close. We are looking at a battle between King Arthur and General Sherman with super soldiers on both sides.
Harmony doesn't need to make more metalborn they will occur naturally because of the conflict because all scadrians have the inactive ability to be metalborn.
Everyone of the military fabrials lack range. In addition you didn't describe the construction of the specific attactor or repulsor fabrials which is no surprise since we haven't seen any that do those things in the books yet. What gems and metals would you use for them to attract or repel metal and what spren would you need. Oh many of the weapons could double as metalminds as well with all that implies.
22 hours ago, The Technovore said:Hard disagree that Radiants will have a hard time closing distances. Gravitation Radiants will be rusting near impossible for anyone but Wax to hit, and their Plate will shrug off at least one bullet, so even if you hit them, it won't stop them. Abrasion Radiants are described to be speedy, graceful, and agile. Again, it's going to be hard to hit them. Even Radiants without those two Surges will be fast--just like Pewter, Stormlight gets them running quickly, and if they can shrug off bullets and are quickly moving, agile targets, closing the distance is going to be trivial unless they're up against F-Steel, A-Steel, or A-Iron. Also going to disagree that Jasnah is a sorceress--she walked into battle not once, but twice, and annihilated hundreds. If she's a magic-based character, she's at least multiclassed a couple levels into "Fighter".
The bit about Radiants being agile also applies to any vehicles and artillery the Scadrians could bring to bear. When a team of armored Skybreakers could drop from the stratosphere at near-mach speeds and turn all your cannons, tanks, planes, etc. to dust before zooming away just as fast--after a while, artillery stops being an asset and starts being a massive money-sink.
If we're going to assume the Metalborn will be highly skilled and capable, we naturally have to assume the same of the Radiants. Doing otherwise is intellectually dishonest.
And on the Radiant + Fused numbers, really, I don't know, but it doesn't seem too far out considering the point already made that spren can reproduce and that Odium and the Stormfather could make more if motivated (and an interplanetary war is plenty motivation)
Edit: To be fair, if a Dustbringer or Edgedancer charged at a garrison of some dozen Scadrian machine gunners, they'd quickly be overwhelmed by bullets, and no amount of Stormlight would save them as long as the guns kept shooting. But that's not Scadrian magic, that's machine guns being a very potent and powerful magic (Murica emoji goes here). Honestly Stonewards could probably make themselves bulletproof easily tho so it just depends on using your Radiants wisely
No enough rounds makes anyone a hittable target even by average marksmen.
Skybreakers dropping from the sky see response above.
Metalborn don't need more than average skill to be very effective with fire arms.
All of the Scadrians could snap during a war.
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On 5/15/2021 at 5:56 PM, The Technovore said:
Look, at this point, if we're comparing magics, I'd say that most Radiants still beat most Metallic Artists. Stormlight gives F-Gold and A-Pewter all in one (not to mention F-Cadmium, F-Electrum, F-Bendalloy, and a touch of F-Steel), just on its own. That means that in a straight wrestling match, no holds barred, any given Radiant--heck, even just a squire is equivalent to a very potent Twinborn combo. Then you add in the power armor that's going to make life for nearly every Twinborn Combo except pewter and iron compounders miserable (I'd love to see an Iron Compounder just sit on a Radiant and squeeze the life out of them lol. Assuming they survive the insta-kill sword long enough to get close). Then you add in the Surges that can do everything from encasing the Radiant in reinforced stone, to disintegrating a Twinborn at a touch, to letting the Radiant fly in ways Vin and Kelsier could only dream of doing. Hand-to-hand combat, (without the insta-kill sword or guns, just straight fists and magic powers), Radiants smoke most if not all Scadrian Magic users. I'm sorry, just a fact.
Add in weapons and tools, and things dip somewhat in the Scadrian's favor. Guns are a great equalizer, especially the nice repeating ones that can just drain a Radiant of stormlight as they keep putting holes in them. You have the ettmetal cubes, the medallions, maybe some good ol' fashioned explosives, you can lay a nice trap for the enemy or just overwhelm them with gunpowder and lead. Except now the Radiant has their insta-kill sword, which means that just one mistake and the Scadrian's dead (except for F-Gold and F-Aluminum maybe). But even with all those weapons, it's going to be just as difficult to kill the Radiant as it would be to kill an A-Pewter/F-Gold Twinborn, assuming you get through the armor. The name of that game is still, frustratingly, attrition and survival until they run out of fuel.
If you inflate things to "All of Scadrial" versus "All of Roshar", it dips even further into Scadrial's favor. 1-in-200 people being a Misting for a population of 15 million (give or take 3 million) in the Elendel basin means almost 100k (75k?) Allomancers, compared to Roshar fielding only 2k Windrunners when nearly every living spren was bonded. Windrunners were one of the more numerous Orders, but even if we're super generous and give each Order 2k Radiants, they're outnumbered 7-to-1. Add in that Scadrial should already have or will soon have repeating rifles (semi-autos) that makes any given soldier a Coinshot. Add in that we don't know the numbers for Allomancers or Feruchemists on SoScad or on SoScad's population. You wouldn't be able to rely on Twinborn for your army, but boy does Scadrial have the numbers.
If you have a situation where all 10k (20k if you're super generous) Radiants and the some 20k or so Fused go up against Scadrial, and then Harmony pulls the "Snap people with mists" thing and make 16% of the population Allomancers... anywhere from 1.6 million to 3.2 million Allomancers just from NoScad. Honor isn't currently capable of making new Radiant Spren, so even if Scadrial has no ability to actually hurt the spren, even if Radiants keep getting replaced after they're killed--they'd still be overwhelmed just on pure numbers. A Scadrian invasion (ignoring the complications involved just getting them to Roshar) would be very casualty-heavy, but successful, because Shardbearers (The Surgebinders and Thunderclasts) can't hold ground.
Radiants are by far the more potent and more powerful magic user. I can see why some would think that Allomancers and Feruchemists should be able to stand up to them--in Era 2, they're described by everyone as though they're gods, spinning through the mists and flaring with power with fantastically romantic imagery and prose. But Scadrial doesn't have deadShards as a comparison for power. Scadrial doesn't have gigantic building-sized crab monsters threatening the Elendel Basin. Radiants on Roshar don't get as much awe and respect for a few reasons in-narrative, (they're new, the history books despise them, these people live with Highstorms blowing in each week so it's not like they haven't seen awesome power before), but just because the prose doesn't describe them in such fabulous terms doesn't mean they're not a whole tier more than Metallic Artists are.
I'll grant Radiants could have bloodmaker, potential thug strength and speed (not steel speed), gasper, and subsumer abilities so long as the stormlight lasts or isn't neutralized or blocked.
Iron compounder nice image.
Virtually all Radiant surges have a very limited range, and until they are in range useless. In addition a radiant in the air has no cover so will be under fire for some time. Instant kill swords don't work until you reach Melee range but high velosity projectiles work the whole time you are trying to close the distance. In the hands of either thugs or tin metal born those high velocity rounds would be potentially lethal. Perhaps even in the hands of a sparker. Any twin combination that includes any of those three would be even more dangerous.
Assuming that a fight between a Radiant and a Metalborn would be toe to toe is naive. Each would be using their best weapons and skills. If the Radiant was able to close the distance in most cases they would have the advantage, but that is a big if. In addition most Radiants aren't anywhere near as talented as Kaladin. Jasna is more of a sorcerous not a warrior, and Shallon is more of a Rogue and are both less capable in a toe to toe fight. Dalinar on the other hand is handicapped by his order since he is still a novice in his surges, but is beyond Kaladin in combat skill.
Aluminum shrapnel for mines and explosives would be a real problem for any Radiants. A thug bloodmaker has a chance toe to toe if the Radiant closes the distance before being filled full of projectiles. A thug could use a Recoiless rifle or something like it from extreme range. He could also pull a rambo or comando with a 50 cal. machine gun. A steel compounder has the chance to overwhelm any order of radiant one on one. They could move fast enough to avoid being hit, add their momentum to their pushes and strike so often and hard so as to bleed the Radiants stormlight. If they did get hit by chance then yes they would lose but I put that in 5/100 chance in a strait toe to toe fight. and less than 1/100 with pushes and firearms in the mix. An Iron compounders chances depend on where the fight takes place and what is available, and also what metal the Radiant has on them not covered by armor. Though with enough weight even the armor might be susceptible to an Iron pull.
Yes metalborn are limited to a very small portion of the population, but Radiants are limited to only a few thousand spren so the larger population of Roshar isn't really an issue in the conflict. You have a few thousand metal born vs a few thousand Radiants. I don't think there are 10k to 20k Radiants and Fused. That seems like an overestimate.
I will grant that Radiants are in close combat are usually more potent, but you can't count on their close combat advantage. David beat Goliath because he was a skilled marksman and Goliath couldn't close with him before he was disabled. There is a high probability that the Rosharan's would have the same problem.
On 5/16/2021 at 0:32 AM, therunner said:OK, understood. I think I recall Wax thinking about what you are saying, but I do not think it is evidence against "tapping large amounts always incurs penalty", since he has no experience doing so.
I looked through all the Mistborn Ars Arcana, and Khriss never talks about mechanics of tapping faster than storing, or losses due to tapping large amounts.
I am aware of this WoB, and I do not think it necessarily invalidates the other one, as it is both older and does not address the issue directly.
We do not know how exactly they will develop, and if we allow speculative future developments to Scadrial we should give the same allowance to Roshar for their fabrial tech.
They can get above trivially, and spren shield would protect them from anything short of other shards/nightblood. And since they would be dropping only 10 seconds or less, they would be extremely difficult to hit.
Those with Surge of Transportation do, if they have enough Stormlight to do it. Getting into Cognitive is relatively easy, getting out is a bit more difficult (or requires more knowledge) (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/398/#e13196), but it is possible.
Also Scadrial does not have access to Cognitive or any ability to travel back and forth, so they would not have soldiers there.
Since when does Scadrial have land mines? And when would they have time to prepare the field with them?
Artillery would be problematic, but they can be destroyed easily (Lashed boulder/Soulcasting) and Scadrial cannot replace them that easily.
Only bronze not copper, but no combination of Twinborn you proposed had either anyway. And Lightweaving is 'quiet' as those alerter spren do not notice it, so it might be difficult to detect even with bronze.
And why are you assuming Scadrial had time to prepare the battlefield?
Rule of Cool, as a lot of protagonists in books don't get 'small' injuries at all. And authorial intent is still what it is, F-iron does not impart damage resistance.
So you agree with me that all these are useless in direct fight with Radiant? Also F-bronze compounder would not be much better as assassin than a normal person, they just don't have to sleep, and you can easily detect them with basic lifesense. F-bendalloy only need no food and water, they still get sick/wounded/need items to sabotage etc, it is useful but not game-changingly so.
And all of the above Compounders are 1 in 10-20 million rare, so not soldiers but only a soldier.
Syl can become a lot of things, so long as they are not too large, and they will retain the same material properties as Shardblade. Lesser spren do not seem capable of forming weapons.
I don't think even when Adolin fights in plate at end of WoR is the ground described as shaking. Nevertheless arrows bounce off her, implying both damage resistance of plate and that plate is sufficiently heavy that the collision effectively imparts no momentum to Jasnah.
Nice analysis @The Technovore, a few points others did not mention I think.
I think you are neglecting more general tools Roshar could bring to bear, namely various fabrials. With alerters you could make traps that trigger only when someone starts using magic, with suppresors you could negate ettmetal cubes and Metallic arts within certain radius, half-shards would be good as 'basic' bullet-proof vests (or augmenter fabrials that strengthen materials), painrials for both first aid and as a weapon, guided 'missiles' using attractor fabrials, etc.
But not all of those Allomancers would be good in combat themselves, and not all allomantic powers are suited for combat (for example A-Aluminum, A-gold, A-duralumin) this cuts the numbers by at least 18.75 % .
Also I think spren are now more populous then they were at time of Recreance, they could breed undisturbed for over 2000 years. And I think most Mistings are comparable to Singer forms, and those can be easily created in tens-to-hundreds of thousands, so Roshar could counter those numbers I think.
If Harmony starts mass snapping, Odium can still create new Fused and as long as Singers breed fast enough, Roshar has the army, but Scadrial does not replenish their forces fast enough.
That's just it the article I quoted explains that it isn't about the amount you tap but the amount of time you compress the storage when you tap. Compressing time converts some of the storage to facilitate tapping faster. Even though it seems like a person is tapping large amounts it is only large if it is tapped faster than it was stored. Compounding hacks feruchemy and potentially allomancy, but we don't know those mechanics.
We do know that Scadrial has haze killer rounds which are comparable to high velocity armor piercing heavy slugs and that they have machine guns. So we don't need to project much into potential developments given their current tech only into more mass production and specialized materials they already have.
The Radiants still need to reach a place to drop from without detection and would still be exposed to un-shielded cross fire from below during the drop potentially from multiple machine guns. They would be better to try a kinetic lash strike where maybe they could lash a rock to run out of stormlight in time to fall into the enemy, but that would require a lot of precision and trial and error. The potential spren shield only protects them from direct strikes not cross fire from all sides from hundreds to thousands of rounds per minute and possibly per second. With bronze and tin allomancy surprise is not on the Radiants side.
Land mines are simply explosives with a trigger and that is not beyond where Scadrial is now. In the dark between battle or by steel runners and coinshot lurcher pairs. Metal born don't glow in the dark.
Artillery can only be destroyed if you can get into range and that would be costly in terms of troops and Radiants.
Lightweavers illusions would still give off a pulse that seekers or windwhisper seekers could detect.
No a seeker sparker would be a great assassin able to follow their target without detection until the target lets their guard down to deal a lethal strike. You are assuming that many of the so called useless metalborn will need to get close enough for a one on one fight, and that is just not the case. Even they are going to fight to their strengths and exploit Radiant weaknesses. I watched a movie called the art of self defense where the protagonist challenged a much more skilled martial artist to a fight to the death. Right at the beginning of the fight he pulled a pistol and shot the karate expert in the head. it is the David and Goliath situation where the marksman has a huge advantage over the melee combatant. Radiants are at less of a disadvantage than most but not enough to entirely negate the marksman advantage of Scadrial when paired with metalborn abilities.
Roshars fabrials are not military weapons and you cannot assume they will be. Show me one that is weapons grade that they currently have.
Every metalborn ability has some military application especially if paired with Scadrian Fabrials.
Spren don't breed and their population is still very limited. I don't recall anywhere that it implies otherwise.
Everytime Odium creates more fused he disperses his power. There is a reason he wont make more fused. I think it was either Raboniel or Leshwe or both that said he wont make more.
It could be the stress and injury of war that snaps Scadrians, so Harmon doesn't need to do a thing. The potential is in every one of them, and being twinborn is in every Terris decendant as they have mixed with the general population.
Comparing arrows to bullets is apples to oranges their both projectiles but not even close to the same magnitude.
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23 hours ago, therunner said:
Wax says no such thing, or which moment are you talking about? When holding BoM he thinks that "Metals, minds, men, all the same substance", but he makes no comment on light. And again, you cannot just create Investiture, per author.
I would assume not, as it is different kind of investiture, not a literal blend.
Or it is a function of the godmetal, and leecher could never achieve such a feat alone.
Khriss never comments on such a thing, and neither does Wax. Sazed might have, but it would be nice of you to provide some quotes instead of your word.
Also since neither of the three are compounders, they would never encounter scenario when they can store large amounts of attribute at once, i.e. they would never notice the difference. The WoB in question (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803) is everything but vague, open, or generic; the question was " Does the loss during the withdrawal of large amounts of attribute depend on the rate of original storage? " this is a very specific question what is vague about it?
Not light, investiture. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/324/#e9288) (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/5/#e3233)
You mean like the suppressors I was talking about on multiple occasions here, on this very page for example?
No, only A-aluminum does that, and only when burned by allomancer. Aluminum does not disrupt Investiture, it blocks its flow and it cannot be acted upon it by Invested processes. You keep mixing up what Aluminum does within Metallic arts (i.e. magical system) with properties of Aluminum within Cosmere in general. Aluminum is useless against withering unless you are Allomancer (even Ferring would have trouble, because his power does not remove investiture).
Not necessarily, you can trap people in situations where they cannot win. And if you literally cannot get what you need to win, you will still lose, F-Chromium is not wish granting genie.
Man in powered armor (Brandon's words) with shapeshifting indestructible gun/shield, moving tens of meters in seconds is at a disadvantage against a guy with a gun? The guy with gun has range, that is it, and the gun has to have aluminum bullets, otherwise it is far weaker against Radiants. And you neglect ways Radiant can circumvent range disadvantage.
- Radiant with gravitation could drop from above faster than Metalborn could react (they could fall 1 km in 10 seconds under 4 lashings) and they can prepare spren into a shield so that when they are falling there is nothing to hit.
- Radiant with Transportation would not need to traverse battleground, they would simply pop out of Cognitive right on top of Metalborn, completely negating any range advantage.
- Radiants with Abrasion would have to approach on foot, but could still use spren as shield, and any non-aluminum sharpnel/ammunition would slide right off.
- Radiants with Illumination could throw up Illusions and make hidden approach ( Lightweavers could then soulcast weapons away, or plug barrels with soulcasted metal)
- Stonewards and Bondsmiths would have greatest trouble approaching a guy with gun, but Stonewards could simply make a fortification and then move it with themselves (as they have Cohesion and Tension) and Bondsmiths are not the most combat oriented (although who know what they could do with Connection manipulation)
And Scadrial currently does not have particularly large variety of ammo or guns, they have mostly revolvers, rifles and some rudimentary machine guns, and only one gunsmith makes specialized ammo.
He gains no resistance, author himself said so and Wax himself said so. He withstands his increased mass, because Feruchemy in general protects against its own effects, but that is it.
As you say yourself, author himself states that tapping weight does not increase damage resistance. As you are the one who says it would make a difference in combat, maybe you can come up with reasons why. But of the bat these would be definitely useless in direct combat
- F-Tin, F-copper, F-Bronze, F-Cadmium, F-bendalloy, F-Electrum
Except that godmetal of Shards is never shown as being flexible, and in fact is only ever shown as unyielding. On size of the whip, I think there was some WoB on limits of size for spren-things, but I cannot find it at the moment
How could Division act to create thrust without proper propellant? Division just breaks chemical bonds, without good fuel you are not going to be flying around. And ramjets only work if you are already moving at around ~170m/s, so that would not work at all. (also Division would not let you change pressure, that would be Adhesion)
As far as we know yes it has to be, after all if Jasnah could have made her plate lighter she would have (especially at the end of battle), even if she made it half as heavy it would be useful.
They got their mass from all the Investiture that manifested, just like sprenblade has much more mass than a regular form of spren would suggest.
it is actually very difficult for me to provide quotes from the books since I don't actually own any and I listen to them not actually read them. So take that for what it is worth. Wax talks about walking around storing investiture, but he rarely taps it at the rate he stored it. He usually compressed it does quick store taps during steel pushes. For that matter most people seem to compress the time when they tap, while spending days, hours, weeks, months or, or even years storing. I think Khriss talks about it in the Ars archanum at the end of book mistborn books.
This is a better WoB on Feruchemy. Though when Brandon says compound he is referring to compressing time as you may note by the context.
Sporkify
This is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?
Brandon Sanderson
It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does—but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself.
In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.
Footnote: This question was asked when fueling Feruchemy with Allomancy had only been seen in Rashek. As such, the term compounding is used purely to reference tapping at a higher rate than can be stored.
Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)Yes and they are developing haze killer rounds, and explosives and have very advanced metallurgy which will benefit further swift advancements in both projectiles and guns among other things.
Drop from above. they need to get above first and still potentially survive a hail of large caliber rounds.
Radiants don't yet have the ability to pop back out of the cognative at will and if there are troops in the cognative in that area the radiants are even more vulnerable.
Land mines and artillery could cause complications for earth bound Radiants even with their sheilds.
copper and bronze can counter illusions and land mines and traps don't notice them.
Stonewards if they traveled far enough underground might evade traps, mines, and artillery, but if not a barrier would be of limited use. Keep your Bondsmith back for fuel and protection.
I am sorry I know Brandon says he doesn't gain any piercing resistance, but he also doesn't end up with scratches, scrapes, cuts, and splinters when he crashes through floors which seems to imply that he has yet to achieve a density that has noticeable resistance to high velocity piercing damage like bullets and perhaps only with insane weight would there even start to be. Mostly only Bones and muscles would even need any increased density to handle the increased weight.
F-Tin, Look outs and snipers and spies.
F-copper, Scientist and Researcher.
F-Bronze, Watchmen and sentries. Potentially assasins since they can wait until just the right moment when the enemy is unaware.
F-Cadmium, Frog men able to attack from water or within poison clouds.
F-bendalloy, great behind the lines soldiers since they need no supply line. Saboteurs. able to travel very light and through desolate terain.
F-Electrum. Think Die hard. soldiers who never quit no matter what so long as they live.
Syl seemed to think she could become many different things but being rigid might be required. If not a shardwhip would be cool. Maybe the windspren could do it.
I don't remember Jasna shaking the ground when she fought in Shardplate, but I could have missed that. Dead plate is certainly is.
@bmcclure7 I think your right era 4 scadrial era 2 roshar.
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On 5/14/2021 at 8:54 AM, Charles said:
Aluminum can be used to store identity and create unkeyed metal minds. So, can someone breath in light and use aluminum to store the light's identity? Could that produce pure investiture? Could that light be transported anywhere in the Cosmere and be used to power any magic system?
What if a cognitive shadow was created when invested with light with no identity? Could they travel anywhere?
I am new to the forum. Sorry if this has already been discussed.
I think your idea has merit. Everything about a person is contained within an Identity including their connections and investiture.
Check out my Fan fic on this topic. Identity weaver. By no means do I claim it is cannon. It was interesting enough that Technovore wanted to use my Aluminum compounder character though.
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20 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:
And Stormlight on Roshar is not made up of photons like light, nor does it act exactly like it is.
I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying here, can you clarify what the question you're asking is?
BoM 22:
This is correct, though it did come very close to him, so it's not clear what the range is. But it definitely does not require contact.
What does it contradict?
According to Wax in BoM energy/light are investiture. So the right wavelength and rhythm of Light would act like anti-void or storm light. Not both at the same time.
Do you think anti-warlight would be dangerous to both Radians and Fused?
Thanks for the BoM 22 reference. It does contain ettmetal thanks for that. There must be more to it though because exposed ettmetal is very volatile. Even though has ettmetal it still projects leaching from a distance. That opens the speculation that with great enough magnitude (ettmetal certainly seems to increase magnitude) a leecher could do the same thing from a distance.
It contradicts what Wax, Khriss, and Sazed say about Feruchemy that you can tap something as fast as you stored it without loss, only when compressing the time to tap do you lose some storage to conversion regardless how fast it was stored or tapped. The WoB question quoted was very open, generic, and vague, so the response was also generally true, vague and potentially misleading as a result.
12 hours ago, therunner said:You mean like Stormlight is not made up of light, nor does it act like it? I mean, you cannot store light inside a gem for example, nor can you breathe it in.
True, but my point was that Soulcasting without gems is possible even when perpendicularity is closed, and this points still stands.
A large one. Disrupts implies that if you have a pool of Stormlight fueling reverse lashing or illusion and insert piece of Aluminum, the effect will get corrupted/stopped somehow. Blocking merely means that the effect will go on as usual, just that it will not reach through aluminum.
For example, lead blocks X-rays it does not disrupt them.
Except that Fortune is not just straight up luck. And it might work differently than we would expect from the name (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/33/#e2754), but you will ignore this WoB because it is paraphrased.
Either way, we have literally no information on what it would do so we will never reach a good conclusion. I think Cr-compounders have a shot at killing Radiant, but they would need good weapons and it is not guaranteed, so they do it 6/10 on average (averaged across all Oaths).
Except for that one WoB per which Feruchemy has losses whenever you tap large amount of attribute and storing speed has no effect. However, you ignore it due to being paraphrased and I do not, so we will have to agree to disagree on that.
In the post you are replying to I already said it is on Coppermind (under Ettmetal), so I do not know what more you want. However LewsTherinTelescope provided a quote to BoM which explicitly says so.
Also while nicrosil stores or enhances Investiture, it does so only when actively used by metalborn. On its own it does neither (barring some modifying effect in fabrial)
I have been only assuming speed and maneuverability granted by single lashing, which we have seen. Distance traveled under constant acceleration is d=1/2 * a * t^2, which you can invert to get time it takes to travel distance d under constant acceleration a, t = sqrt(2d/a). For d=50m and a=7 m/s^2 you will get t=3,77 s. So I slightly overstated my case, Radiant with Gravitation can move 50 meters under 4 seconds, and not 3 as I was saying. Under three lashings it would be close to 50 meters at 2 seconds.
Effective range of even modern grenade launchers is ~350 meters when trying to hit teams of people, and only 150 meters when trying to hit vehicles. Radiant with Gravitation is mobile enough (they can dismiss/redirect lashing at will, to quickly move in different directions) and fast enough to get in range without being hit by grenade, as they can cover 350 meters in around 10 seconds (under Single Lashing). And Era 2 Scadrial does not have grenade launchers of such ranges anyway.
The velocity of subsonic bullet in mph is off, it is only 400 mph (you forgot to convert from feet per hour to mph). Radiant could form shield before starting his charge and before any shot was taken, or even after a shot was taken if it did not kill them. I also don't think they could dodge bullets, but dodging grenades is a different matter. On that matter, after a few encounters with guns they could take the approach that it is good to advance in a random zig-zagging motion to lower the chance of being hit. (but I think here we are going into way too much detail with the speculation).
Scadrial currently has neither explosive nor armor piercing rounds as far as I know (and Shardshield would still easily resist them), and rapid fire weapon is a problem only if it catches Radiant unaware.
Suppressor fabrial don't need to be attuned to individual Surges, hence they do not need to be attuned to individual metals. Its all Harmonies investiture, one setting should be enough (or two if Preservation and Ruin are still sufficiently distinct).
To learn how, they could capture a couple of Mistings and Ferrings and experiment on them, A-pewter Misting and F-gold Ferrings would be easiest to experiment on, as they will both use their powers unconsciously if wounded sufficiently (and yikes, this is so unethical). Or they could try various settings and experiment in battles, plus wide band jammer exists, so they could try to suppreser everything that is not Surgebindin (but this might not be possible, or feasible).
Neither Wax nor Sazed are Compounders, and I do not think they ever comment on effect of storing speed at tapping. If they do I apologize, but please provide quotes where they do so.
While Coppermind says " when a Feruchemist is tapping an attribute at the same rate it was stored, they are able to get out exactly what they put in ", the WoB they source for this does not actually say that, although it might imply it.
In my opinion the newer WoB (2012 vs 2008), even when paraphrased is a better source for this.
And a question (I have kinda lost track of why are we discussing this point)., would the fact that they can tap losslessly actually change dynamics of combat with Radiant? F-steel will still burn them up when moving too fast (and I think even Steel Ferrings would move fast enough), F-Iron will still not make them resistant to damage, F-pewter will make them pile of muscles that can no longer move, etc.
It really does not leave much room, Brandon himself (no paraphrasing or anything) says that F-Iron does not increase damage resistance, period. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/40/#e692)
Arcanum Unbounded actually does not say that lifeform converts sunlight to Investiture, in fact it says this
i.e. the investiture comes from the sky, most likely from sunlight (the intro is not fully clear on this, it says that for years they assumed it but that it is not as simple, however that might refer to the fact that they assumed that only Dayside is invested, not to the source of Investiture itself). It then goes on to explain that this organism reacts to water, and that Sand Masters use water of their bodies to forge brief Connection to it to gain power from Spiritual Realm.
Shards are made of godmetal, and so far that has been pretty unyielding, not very flexible. Making it from small linked parts would also not work, as the object must be one whole thing, not multiple small ones.
I am not sure how the 'Shard jet boots' should work? While Division does break molecular bonds, they do not have anything like rocket fuel to get enough thrust from that, so I do not think they could do that.
Shard wings, or shard flight stabilizers are an interesting idea, anyone under lashing would find it useful.
You can store light in sand though in the Cosmere. Plus the light might be escaping because of impurities and imperfections.
I never said that Radiants couldn't soulcast without gems. That brings up what you might make a fabrial from to block Cadmium allomancy or or in other words create a cadmium suppressor? That would be a creative use of Rosharan Magic.
Aluminum causes metal and power to vanish (allomancy and hemulurgy respectively). It doesn't leech, they are just gone. So it does disrupt, but it also blocks which still seems to me to be a form of disruption. In fabrials it blocks or disrupts certain vectors depending on how it is placed. It can also disrupt feruchemical and radiant healing as well as pewter. These effects are all in its article on the Coppermind. It also disrupts and reverses withering. It seems that it depends on how it is used whether it simply blocks or disrupts.
I will grant Brandon is squishy on fortune. We have it described as luck and as foresight, but he has been vague and evasive on the subject. With enough luck or foresight you would have the weapons, equipment, allies, and skills you need for any situation. Compounding has the potential to supply that.
See my response on that one WoB and ettmetal above. I asked for the link because I was drawing a blank on where to find the cubes make up. It does have ettmetal, but likely isn't ettmetal since that would be way to volatile.
Sorry man with melee weapon is at a severe disadvantage to man with gun even when man with sword can fly especially when man with gun may have his own physically enhancing abilities. The Radiant might not even reach grenade range before having to retreat or die given the potential variety of ammunition and gun available.
Sazed comments on many feruchemical powers including speed (for one he said it was difficult to store) and goes into detail on storing and tapping various metals. Wax comments on storing and tapping weight. He usually goes around at 75% storing the other 25%. In addition he stores extra weight when he travels by coin. His feats of massive tapping often use thousands of hours of storing in mere moments but those are rare about 1 per book. Wax is a riddle because he says that he gains no additional resistance, but time and again it is implied that he does when he taps massive weight. It is explicitly described that his crush resistance changes because of the weight he taps particularly in the train car scene. That is not explained away by some spiritual weight place holder, it is a physical affect.
Yes the ability to tap losslessly for an Iron compounder would change the dynamics of combat with a Radiant. Just a side note Brandon couldn't think of a reason why Wax wouldn't be bullet resistant when he tapped weight which is why he said it doesn't resist penetration, but if different parts of the body change density at different rates then unless a bullet hit a bone (likely the most density increase) penetration resistance could be almost nothing until very extreme weights were achieved. Water in the body would never change density. Muscle density might eventually make a noticeable difference in places where structural support was needed. Anyway with increased mass and density there would be a proportional amount of increased strength in both body and more particularly allomancy enabling incredible stability and massively powerful strikes. Mostly though we are discussing compounding Iron as an example of compounding generally with something physical to relate to. Many abilities are more esoteric and thus hard to nail down. What would it even mean to have 1 million times more connection, mental speed, investiture or determination? We have also tried fortune, but as you pointed out what does that even mean either. Any of these in sufficient quantity might have an affect in a battle with a Radiant, but that affect would be hard to define. Wakefulness so you are always ready for when the Radiant is off guard even if it is only once per year.
Yeah for humans on Taldain it is complicated to access investiture. It comes from the sunlight to the organism in the sand then to humans.
Shard whip would be a solid flexable thing like a long piece of invested rubber. Division might act to create thrust if properly controlled. They might need fuel or might work like ram jets creating changes in pressure. I am not sure that summoning a shard means it needs to be rigid. I could just see a whip wielding winddancer flicking fused out of the air from yards away. No telling how long the whip could be.
Does living plate need to be heavy? Kal's plate is made out of wind spren for goodness sake. Did they suddenly take on allot of mass when they became plate? Living plate seems to act more like a force shield than actual armor. If the living shardplate isn't heavy then edgedancer might be able to glide at times with shardwings.
Like I said a conflict between Rosharan's and Scadrian's could be far more interesting than just near invulnerable armor, magic swords and rapid healing on one side, and clandestine attacks from cover or dark on the other. Up until now I have been trying to show that armor is not invulnerable, the swords are not the end all weapon, and the healing is not unbeatable on Roshars side by proposing potentially possible and often extreme Scadrian counters.
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21 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:
This feels like saying "mist on Scadrial is still mist unless you think Scadrial's water is fundamentally different than other water in the Cosmere". The sunlight itself can still be light, but also have Autonomy messing with it and making it Invested (which likely would give it slight mass, yes, but that doesn't mean all light is that way).
Mist on Scadrial is not made up of water like fog, nor does it act exactly like it is. For instance it doesn't cross boundaries nor is there ever a comment on the air being more humid. You still haven't addressed that energy of which light is a form, metal, and soul are the same in the Cosmere.
14 hours ago, therunner said:I understood well enough, I just pointed out that we do see Jasnah soulcast without gems in RoW, where there is no perpendicularity around.
Also for most of battle at the end of Oathbringer the perpendicularity is already closed and Radiants are only using light in infused spheres. Perpendicularity is opened only for Chapter 119, at is closed the same chapter, fighting takes place afterwards. But it is true that everyone is infused with Stormlight to greater degree than usual.
Aluminum itself disrupts bubble, not a person burning aluminum. And nowhere is it stated that Aluminum disrupts surges, it only cannot be affected by them (and potentially they cannot affect things through it).
Stronger in sense of physical force, yes. But not stronger in sense of 'can I push/pull on trace metals/invested objects', they still cannot do that.
Or they will see future kind of like Renarin when tapping a lot, or like Hoid (who uses Fortune) will 'know' they should be somewhere, but outside of that they will not get much. We simply don't know.
Until they burn through their stores (if A-powers are storable), afterwards they will be just an ordinary Thug. They would not fire much more rapidly, they would still be limited by the weapon as most people are, and Radiant can still form Spren into a shield to protect themselves from most damage.
In close range they are still inferior to Radiant in plate who has better armor, better healing, (strength depends on how much is Thug/Soulbearer tapping) and comparable speed (or Thug is better if tapping enough), and of course Shardblade.
The biggest advantage they would have is speed, because they are most of the time weaker, all of the time squishier, all of the time have worse healing. All of this sums to the simple fact that Thug/Soulbearer cannot afford to get hit once, but Radiant still can.
All that is assuming Nicrosil is also ranged when primed, and timing is a tricky thing when your target shifts directions faster they you can move (and can move 50 m away from assumed direction under 3 seconds).
Again, primer cubes use ettmetal (a godmetal), so to draw conclusions on Misting powers from them can be misleading.
Also, breathing in Stormlight when hurt has been shown to be partly instinctual, like burning A-pewter when hurt. So if the fall did not kill them outright, they could survive.
So Cadmium primed cubes, not nicrosil cubes? That could work, provided of course Radiant does not have suppresor fabrial on them. And since we are apparently allowing fabrials to Scadrians, Rosharans should have them also.
Fabrials are comparable true, but Shards are literally inseparable from Radiant, but you can still take a gun from anyone. In any case if you equate guns to fabrials, then we should equip Radiants with suppresor fabrials for the purpose of our discussion, negating all ettmetal cubes and all Metallic Arts within ~10-15 meters of Radiant.
How is the WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803) contradictory? There is no other source on the topic as far as I am aware, i.e. there is nothing it contradicts. If you have some other source on this topic, please share it instead of saying there is contradiction.
I do look at the dates of WoBs, and generally try to pick the recent ones over the older ones if there are multiple on the topic.
While Coppermind is updated, it is not updated as fast as you assume + it still uses WoBs/books as it source.
While you may not think so, the primer cubes are in fact made of ettmetal, if you try to find primer cube on Coppermind it redirects you to Ettmetal. There is most likely something else involved, but at the time we have no idea what it is, and the ettmetal is still crucial to its workings (i.e. no ettmetal, no primer cube).
In addition, ettmetal machinery has been shown to create effects that are not possible with Metallic Arts (airship lowering its mass), so it clearly allows effects not possible just with Metallic Arts.
You are not arbiter of what is or is not objective. Then again, neither am I. I also do not assume someone is objective because they agree with me (or vice versa).
Generally I start by assuming others are arguing/debating in good faith (i.e. strive to be as objective as possible), and then adjust based on their behavior. Part of that is acknowledging when being wrong, other part is being willing to share arguments that would weaken your previous position if you think of them.
It also helps if other parties explain their reasoning, because then I can at least trace a point where we disagree to one/few statements.
LIght has energy and momentum, and thanks to momentum light sail can work. Light still has no mass.
Shallan's illusions had mass because they are made of Stormlight (which then created the illusion) + Shallan can soulcast which can also partly explain it.
Since physical objects can be infused with Investiture (see metalminds, spikes, Awakened objects, gems, parts of fabrials, etc.), it is easy to imagine that Autonomy invests photons of Taldain's dayside sun, as light is still a physical thing.
While energy, mass and investiture can be converted among one another in Cosmere, that does not mean that hunk of steel is the same thing as gamma radiation, or that water vapor are pure investiture. They can be converted into one another, and compared to some extent, but they are still different things.
After the perpendicularity closed Jasna found it increasingly more difficult to Soulcast. Her ability to seemingly soulcast effortlessly has to do with her skill, practice and perhaps her oath level. Still she finds it more difficult than she did during that battle because of the relative closeness or separation of the realms.
Blocks or disrupts what is the difference?
From Iron Copper mind:
"There are two general rules for ironpulling, which also apply to steelpushing, its paired opposite. The first rule is that the strength of your pull is roughly proportional to your physical mass. This means that larger Allomancers can generally ironpull and steelpush more powerfully than a smaller counterpart. While proportional, the force exerted by an ironpull is much greater than the Lurcher's weight,"
Mass affects Steel and Iron as more than just an anchor.
Look if you increase your fortune 1 million times in just 5 compounds it would enable insane foresight or luck. that is just 5 times each additional time beyond that is 10 times more. At the very least that is a 1 million seconds (277 years) at twice you natural luck after 5 compounds. Another way to look at it is a long life time at 6 times your natural luck. At six compoundings 60 times then 600 times then 6,000 times, then 60,000 times, then 600,000 times, and finally 6 million times for a life time in a total of 10 compoundings even if the initial time spent storing is only 1 second. Every form of compounding is about increasing a power or attribute by geometric scale tappable without loss in the time it took to store initially. Feruchemy is lossless so long as you don't compress the time.
Give me a link to where the cubes are described as ette metal? They are used as primers for ette metal fuel in the southern air ships, but they act more like nicrosil themselves. Nicrosil stores or enhances investiture.
The Radiant needs to reach close range, and you have been assuming a lot of speed and maneuverability vs fire arms projectiles and explosives. I don't think we have concrete examples to support that assumption. Even subsonic bullets traveling 600 ft/sec have a velocity of 216,000 mph and those are slow bullets. So forming a shield or changing direction before impact is highly unlikely even for a Radiant. If the ammunition is aluminum the Radiant can afford a single hit either. Explosive or armor piercing rounds would also be a problem as would rapid fire weapons.
Suppressor fabrial would work if it were keyed to suppress cadmium. Though I am not sure how they would come up with one that did. Perhaps I am mistaken but the cube did seem to leech Wax at a distance. I don't remember it actually hitting him.
Right if they have the chance to breath in stormlight they will likely survive that strike, but all that stormlight used all at once fueling a gravity lashing into a solid barrier would be spectacular and very quick. No plate it might be rotten tomato. It might also be interesting whether the wall gets knocked down or the Radiant goes splat or some combination.
Your WoB contradicts the explicit description in the Coppermind, by Wax, and by Sazed. It is also a paraphrase of what the person thinks they asked and the response they think they received. In addition we don't have a recording to verify how accurate the person was. Even though it is included in WoB's we can't be sure it is exactly what Brandon said or what was actually asked.
No I am no arbiter of objectivity only Brandon is in this instance. I am an arbiter of whether someone shares my subjective opinion, and grant that others have their own subjective opinions which I may or may not share mine in full or in part. The whole world was objectively flat according to everybody at the time, except that was actually a subjective fact taken as objective. When we see how Brandon treats these abilities in his books then we will know what is objective. His treatment of Iron Feruchemy from my perspective leaves room for supposition. Wax has a subjective opinion which from his experience is accurate, but is still limited to his restrictions on storing.
Water isn't a metal, or energy so is not actually the same. It is a fungus or lifeform living on the sand that converts the light into investiture on Taldain(?). That was from the intro to white sand in Arcanum Unbound.
Here is a creative use of Rosharan weaponry. A shardbullwhip instead of a Shardsword. That could be interesting. Shard jet boots on dustbringers plate to fly with using Division. they might even be able to form Shard wings for stability.
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On 5/9/2021 at 0:39 AM, therunner said:
First of all, Shades are from Threnody, not Nalthis. Second, since it is the only Invested ailment we have seen, of course it is most devastating. Third, he said that both would work well, only that A-Aluminum is probably safer.
And while that Savant power sounds cool, remember that Savantism also carries severe drawbacks, so that is something to remember.
In RoW she had no such advantage, and yet she was still easily soulcasting.
Since Venli affected entire hallway, you do not need to be particularly near to use Cohesion to trap feet. And you did not address Reverse lashing, Lashing on clothes, Soulcasting of air/ground, or division of ground/clothing.
Why would aluminum gnat disrupt a Surge? It is not like he is made of aluminum, and no aluminum gnats do not create 'bubbles' around themselves, what evidence you have for that? Even your usual source (Coppermind) says nothing of the sort.
Steel-Compounder I agree with. However, Iron-Compounder does not become Allomantically stronger (they just have better 'ballast'), nor are they much stronger (they just have more weight behind the hit, and we see Sazed having difficulty moving when tapping a lot of Weight) and they are slower, less dexterous, less mobile and less damage resistant than Radiant, so Radiant could easily dodge them and close the distance to kill them.
Chromium compounder I cannot really say if I agree, all we get on F-Chromium are RAFOs, and Fortune in Cosmere is not straight up luck. I do lean in the direction that they might pull it off, if they had proper weapons.
Thug/Soulberearer I already addressed, and I think that even with storing A-pewter they would not have such an easy time with Radiants in Plate and above, though if they used their bursts of strenght and speed well they could pull it off.
Sparker/Slider, you cannot shoot out of time bubbles, they effectively randomize trajectory. F-zinc gives you a bit of mental speed (it is not compounded, so you cannot do what Wax did in BoM), but it does not give you information you do not have, so you cannot predict how it would get deflected. How would they booby trap a higher Oath level, and how are their powers helping? A well designed trap could kill almost anyone (even Fullborn), so I am not seeing how this is argument for this particular Twinborn.
Cadmium misting is trapped in the bubble with the Radiant, so they die almost immediately (because they are a normal person otherwise). And the grenade affect the Misting as well, so that would be weird (sped up bubbles that slows down time?). And what about Elsecallers and Willshapers that can drop in from CR?
Nicrosil twin, so Nicrosil would super-charge a Surge, but would it super-charge pre-existing Surge as well? And how would you make sure grenades explodes near Radiant? And any Stormlight in gems would still remain on their person even after this hit, so they could easily heal up. And how would this be useful against, well any order without Gravitation? And how is F-nicrosil helping them?
It is interesting that out of 3 non-compounders you mention, two need modern weaponry to deal with Radiant. That to me suggests that their powers are simply lacking in comparison (and guns are called the great equalizer for a reason), so any advantage due to guns is only temporary. Of course, using tools we should equip Radiants with painrial nets and suppresor fabrials at the very least, maybe even half-shard shields.
I will then assume you do not have any new application of Surges hidden somewhere.
Well you might ignore such WoBs, but you will find most do not. So I again disagree with your claim, and here is the evidence (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803). And frankly, I do not see how you could paraphrase such a clear question into something with different meaning (especially when the person writing the report is the person that asked the question).
Using ettmetal tech as an example of what can a person do with their powers is flawed assumption, as there is godmetal involved. Every single WoB implies that contact is necessary for Leechers. Soulcasting is based around CR and as we see on Roshar Cognitive Aspect of an item is not necessarily in the same place as in PR, so that easily explains why soulcasting works from distance.
Which WoBs do not support my position? Please give examples when you make statements, it is otherwise a bit difficult to argue such points.
The WoB with tapping attribute is pretty clear (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803), the only reason you disregard it is because it is paraphrased. There is no other information on this topic (loss when tapping and rate of storage), so there is no other canonical information to consider, source is a person quoting themselves (and 'No' is not difficult to remember) and what context is there for this WoB? Other than you not wanting to give up your idea that Compounders can ignore a fundamental limitation of Feruchemy?
I was under the impression that people in the thread are striving for at least some measure of objectivity in their statements, and are genuinely interested in how the conflict would go down, i.e. even though they might think evidence favours one side they are not playing favourites.
If I think you make a good point and the evidence supports it, I have no problem acknowledging that (at least I try to). But when you make statements that have no evidence, outright conflict with books and WoBs or you make up elaborate scenarios of how someone would win, I do not feel the need to treat such statements as true, or relevant.
Light has no mass, that is one of its defining qualities (otherwise it would not move at speed of light). So that is a difference between light and Stormlight. And Taldain's sun is invested, that is why the light (photons) are invested there. So again no neither right frequency nor the right pulse of light will kill Radiants.
Threnody thanks for the correction glad you understood.
What do you think the downsides of aluminum savantism might be?
I think you misunderstood I was refering to the battle in Oath bringer where Dalinar first opened a perpendicularity.
As for an aluminum bubble I got that Idea from it creating a bubble of disruption within a bendalloy bubble. It is also stated that it disrupts gravity surges and other directed surges.
In the descriptions the strength of both steel and iron are affected by their mass.
We really haven't seen anyone with the amount of fortune possible with compounded chromium. You might almost imagine someone like that to be like Scooby, inspector gadget, or get Smart on steroids. For that matter they might be like how Jackie Chan's characters appear luckily surviving encounters.
Thug/Soulbearers would also likely be far more accurate and able to use heavy projectile weapons as well. They would also be able to fire those rounds much more rapidly and at greater range. Once in close they could also use heavier melee weapons and would have a greater healing ability and pain resistance than average.
Using nicrosil grenades would be about timing. Someone launched into space by their own gravity lashing would likely have time to suck in stormlight. If they were headed down or toward and obstacle they might not have enough time to suck up stormlight before impact. A grenade launcher with sights would be a great way to to get the grenade on target. The fact that the Nicrosil cube doesn't actually need to hit you also implies that Nicroburst's might also develop ranged use of their abilities in the future.
A cadmium allomancer with Nicrosil cubes might not have the same problem. The Radiant frozen in time by the nicrosil cube would have a big problem. Again it would be timing that would be crucial.
There is not real surprise since Scadrials more modern weaponry would be used in conjunction with their magic. Separating them would be like separating Fabrials, and shards from Radiants. Except there is not specific oath requirement that restricts Scadrian Tech.
I am not willing to put the effort into more creative surge use since that is your preference and or bias.
here is the source of your WoB https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2422-hal-con/#comment-44676 where he says this "The majority of these questions and answers are paraphrased, as I wasn't able to record them, and I wasn't able to write everything down exactly as it was said. If the answer was a partial evasion, I did make sure to make special note of it, so those answers should be as said." That WoB may seem clear but it is contradictory and may not be accurate. Other WoB's are old enough and examples of him not wanting to reveal information at the time which has been updated. So when you quote be sure to look at both dates and sources of the WoB. Again it seems that the coppermind is updated as new WoB's come out.
I don't think the allomantic grenade was ette metal. I think it was nicrosil and was used as a spark for the ette metal fuel in the ship. Ette metal as the cubes material would be way to dangerous. Used as high explosives it would be great.
I have long been disabused of the idea that people in this thread are being objective. To assume that if someone agrees with you they are being objective is a fallacy, as is assuming that if someone disagrees with you they are not being objective. From my perspective almost all comments are subjective until I see otherwise and I take them as such.
If light had no mass solar sails wouldn't work. Oh and Jasna said that Shallon's illusions had mass since light has some mass. Sunlight from Taldain's sun is still light unless you think Taldain's sun is fundamentally different than other stars in the Cosmere? Light is energy and energy is investiture in the Cosmere, along with metal and soul they are all the same thing in different forms.
On 5/9/2021 at 8:28 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:How would being a Compounder help with Allomantic savantism?
More opportunity to burn aluminum. Also likely burning more aluminum and burning it more often.
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20 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:
The question isn't whether Hemalurgy overall can do it (H-duralumin is "Steals Identity/Connection" iirc), but over whether aluminum specifically can. I doubt aluminum removes every Hemalurgic trait (this would likely require destroying literally the entire spiritweb), so the question is if a bond counts as a "power", or if aluminum Hemalurgy is just not particularly useful against Radiants. I'm leaning the latter, myself, as we've seen no indication aluminum removes Connection (while they don't have Radiants, they do clearly have a way to check if Connection is removed or not, since they worked out H-duralumin, so it's not unreasonable to think they would have noted such a thing being the case).
Correct, he handwaved it, because there is no scientific explanation that fits all his criteria. But he explicitly stated that he is not changing density (at least not directly; I've got no clue if bone density would increase to compensate for the larger body or anything).
Aluminum is unique. Hemalugically it is the only metal that doesn't steal attributes or power. You cannot use it to transfer abilities from one person to another. I looked at the hemalugic bind point illustration for steel inquisitors and saw that the bind points available for aluminum were in a pair of locations on both sides of the pelvis, both fore arms, and both shin. Now if they were put there these aluminum hemalugic spikes would render the inquisitor powerless regardless what other spikes they have. (aluminum spike handcuffs and shackles anyone). Hemalurgic aluminum strait up removes powers. On Roshar that could be interpreted as surges, bonds, or invested light. healing and extra physical ability are also powers. In additions it doesn't just remove some power but all powers and I reason that the most effective way to do that to a Radian would be to act as a stormlight sink to remove stormlight. Brandon also said that aluminum in the body interferes and or interacts with power in the body. (much of this comes from the foot notes on aluminum).
One other thing about aluminum is that Brandon said allomantic aluminum would be more effective at removing withering than feruchemical gold. From what I have seen that appears to be one of the most devastating invested ailments in the Cosmere. It has also been implied that a Savant might be able to remove not just invested injuries, but other forms of impurity as well. I think you would practically need to be an aluminum compounder to become a savant. An aluminum twin probably wouldn't need silver on Nalthis.
53 minutes ago, therunner said:I was under the impression that Radiants are still gem limited for soulcasting at least to some extent, see this WoB ( https://wob.coppermind.net/events/149/#e2784). Although this another WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/128/#e3243) suggests that maybe it is not as hard a rule as with soulcasters. Maybe there is something I am not aware of, but reading these I would expect even Radiant Soulcasting to be at least less effective when using different gems.
But then again, seeing what Jasnah is doing in Oathbringer and RoW, it does not seem she pauses to check if she has correct gems, so if such limit exists it is not particularly strong for Radiants.
Jasnah was particularly effective during the battle because the 3 realms were practically merged in the region due to the Dalinar perpendicularity. "And how would aluminum neutralize/resist Surges? Unless you encase the entire person (i.e. head to toe and no gaps), Reverse Lashing could affect them, and even if they are fully encased in Aluminum, Division could still set the ground on fire, Soulcasting could still create tomb/oil on fire, Lightweaver could still blind them/fool them, Cohesion could still shape stone and trap their feet. Tension and Abrasion would be difficult, but Radiant could still apply it to themselves and have either better protection or better mobility." I will address this. Indirect attacks are a great option when the target can counter a direct strike. An aluminum nat would be all but impossible to directly use a surge on against their will. Trapping his feet with cohesion requires time and contact near those feet. Abrasion, adhesion, soulcasting, division or any other surge used directly as quick as he can burn aluminum. If he moved quickly enough he might disrupt any surge used near him by passing through it just like he can disrupt bendalloy bubbles and an area around himself (yeah it creates a small bubble itself only evident in contrast to other nearby investiture. Which might mean the ground below his is also not going to be surgeable. You seem so knowledgeable that i am surprised I even need to explain this to you.
You want to know who could likely go toe to toe with a Radiant. Obviously steel and iron compounders. After just 5 compounding sessions either has 1,000,000 times more attribute than they started with (that is the same with all compounders). that level of speed or mass would provide incredible allomanic and physical abilities. Brandon may say that F-iron doesn't increase density, but in the books he shows that their is an effect on density. What it doesn't obviously provide is density against penetration,but broken bones it has been shown to strongly resist that as well as giving proportionally greater strength. 1 million time stronger structure and muscle strength may even give the ability to affect shards with allomancy.
Another toe to toe possibility is a Chromium compounder. 1 million times more luck/fortune would likely always being in the right place with the right resources to kill a Radiant.
A thug/soulbearer would likely have the stored invested physical abilities to outclass any radiant and given the right equipment would likely win most engagements toe to toe.
With enough time to prepare a sparker/slider would likely be able to gun down 3rd oath and below from the safety of a bubble and perhaps win by booby trap any oath level.
A cadmium misting armed with nicrosil grenades could turn anyone into a sitting duck so might also be able to kill most radiants.
I can only imagine the havoc a Nicrosil twin with nicrosil grenades would cause especially if they had some kind of grenade launcher. (grenade activates near a windrunner and suddenly his gravity lashing launches him into space, a wall, the ground or just really fast then his stormlight is gone. Hopefully their shardplate survives any impact because their healing is also gone.)
I'll leave it up to you to come up with creative surge use since you are the ones mostly promoting Rosharan magic winning.
From the Feruchemy coppermind we get this mechanic for Feruchemy:
when a Feruchemist is tapping an attribute at the same rate it was stored, they are able to get out exactly what they put in, for example, if they store 50% of their strength for one hour they can tap that and be at 150% of their strength for one hour. However, if the Feruchemist taps at a greater rate, then some of the attribute is lost,
So long as you don't tap the stored attribute faster than it was stored, 1 hour, or 1 day for example you always get back what you store. The WoB you quoted doesn't account for this. Yes I know it says tapping large amounts but if you go the origional source the author of the question admits to paraphrasing his questions and responses so the coppermind has the more complete response or description of the mechanics. This is one example of where a WoB is vague or potentially inaccurate or of limited accuracy. I have notices that Brandon has a tendency to limit his responses to only the most narrow circumstances so as to retain some Cosmere surprises.
One thing you would never guess is that leeching can be done without touching someone, but Nicrosil grenades leech at a distance without touching you so could leeching at a distance be done by a person with enough skill like soulcasting can? After all nicrosil grenades show that distance leeching is possible.
I see your disputes and many times my first mental response it you haven't really thought it through. Even the WoB's you quote can be interpreted in multiple ways that don't nessisarily support the position you propose, but I look them up anyway and as often as not disregard them because I don't think they say what you think they say. I have quoted many articles in the course of this discussion (I am very selective of what I quote because so many can be interpreted in multiple ways or contradict each other), but when others disregard them I choose not to continue to quote them. You on the other hand keep quoting the same WoB's presuming that I will change my mind on what they say or how accurate they are like the one about tapping massive attributes. Always consider the context, the source, and any other canonical information on the subject before you assume it supports your position.
Aluminum blocks shardblades and for now that is Brandon's position (I found that in the footnotes of Aluminum) His team is still debating the topic. That could mean that even a thin sheet of aluminum foil will stop a shardblade since we have never seen a shardblade cut anything made of aluminum. The coppermind gives the proviso that if it is thick enough without saying how thick. Nightblood's scabard can stop a shardblade slash from Nightblood itself. Scabards are not usually very thick and one made of aluminum would likely bend or even be cut through if struck by a regular sword.
This discussion has not been objective. It is entirely subjective on both sides and to assume it is not is unrealistic. The best anyone can hope for is that someone else will accept their subjective opinion. You all seem to think I should accept your subjective opinions as objective while rejecting my own subjective opinion, and that wont happen. I may grant that I can see your subjective position and where it comes from and maybe even think it is rational or even likely, but I get very frustrated that many times maybe even most you all wont do the same.
@Frustration Light also has mass. It is minuscule but it does have some. So that is not a difference between light and stomlight. Incidentally sunlight gives investiture to sand on Taldain. So the right frequency and pulse of light will destroy stormlight and kill Radiants along with their spren.
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22 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:
Feruchemical iron does not increase density.
AoL 19, Wax explicitly says it does not increase density and he cannot become bulletproof:
WoB where Brandon says there's not really a way to explain it scientifically, but it is not density:
WoB that confirms that when Sazed says his density increases, it's a misunderstanding of what is actually occurring:
Brandon didn't have a scientific explanation of why increasing mass without increasing density especially for a strait skimmer.
A strait skimmer like Wax has a limited amount of mass that they can store so that would be the first thing to limit their effective overall density. Another way I rationalize a density increase without much change to penetration resistance is that not everything increases in density at the same rate and some things in the body don't increase at all. To remain standing bone density must increase much more than anything else, and to be able to continue to move normally muscle density must also increase though not nearly as much as bone density. Most of the body is water and it wont increase at all. Other tissues like skin might not increase density or if they do only very minimally.
If there are major differences, as I presume, to density increases in different parts of the body then it would take significant magnitude to start to see an effect on projectiles, but it would occur if the mass increased enough.
12 hours ago, therunner said:I mostly agree with all of this, I partly disagree on Stormlight being removed (I think it would not, as Stormlight is not Power, but Investiture) and I disagree that any aluminum piercing with Intent anywhere will remove powers. All of Hemalurgy rests on two things 1) Intent, and 2) Bind points, and I simply do not see why should aluminum be special in this regard when there is no evidence for this.
So yeah, I think if you can hit Radiant in one of 14-19 locations that correspond to Aluminum, you will remove their Bond to spren as that is their Power, but you need to hit those bind points first. The only on the fly examples of Hemalurgy were performed by people guided by Ruin, not by a person on their own, they tied those people down.
So even if you started shooting a machine gun and Radiant were bunched up in such a way you could hit hundreds of them at once, I think you would be lucky to spike one. And of course, the spren could then go and bond someone else, so unless you hit someone of 3rd oath, you have the same amount of Radiants as before.
I...said the same thing about lurchers and coinshots?
So I do not know what you meant by this.
LewsTherinTelescope already addressed Wax's increased mass is not actually increasing his density (or resistance to damage) using both books and WoBs, so I will not address it further.
Also three things on your example:
- I think your numbers are off by a factor of 10, as I have not idea how to replicate them. If he is storing ~50lbs at all times (he can only store when awake), we would get 50*16(usable hours in day)*365(days in year)*40(years)=~11.6 million lbs *hours, so ten times as much, and I really do not see how to just reduce by a factor of 10 (although I might be missing something obvious).
- Compounding multiplies stores by 10x, so after compounding 5 times he would not have 5 times as much, but 10^5 times as much.
- You are again neglecting loses from tapping faster, so those hypothetical 5 million lbs*hours would not be usable to increase his weight 25000x for 1 hour, the loss would be something like 10^(-10000), so you would not get even a single pico-second of that weight (frankly there is no time interval short enough to describe it properly).
In the future there will definitely be developments we cannot even begin to predict (i.e. what the hell Voidbinding is, how medallions are made, how to achieve FTL with Metallic arts, what spiritual metals actually do, etc.). But as things stand now (Roshar = post-RoW, Scadrial= post-BoM) Roshar has stronger and more flexible magic, larger population, better replacement numbers, while Scadrial has more advanced earth-equivalent technology.
The thread was positited as this
and then evolved further from that to include total war between Roshar and Scadrial, with the necessary assumption that you somehow place them on the same world and they retain their magic and other useful tools. So if you say "Right now they can't have conflict" you are dismissing both the basic and evolved thesis of this thread.
You dismissed all Frustration wrote by saying you "don't agree with [his] interpretation of how the Cosmere works ", which is ok in some ways. But a large point of his post was that all of Cosmere works on the same underlying principles (with WoBs to support that), and that is something you cannot just choose to dismiss. For example
please tell me how the above is vague.
What creative examples of Radiant powers? Using Abrasion on a boulder?
So I went through the last 40 pages to look for examples of metalborn you proposed for direct conflict with Radiant (if I missed any, you are free to list them yourself), I will take just their powers, not your headcannon scenarios of how the situation would go down. For non-compounding Twinborn you listed as winning against 4th oath Radiants:
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Thugbearer (A-pewter/F-nicrosil)
- If they can store effect of A-pewter, they can shortly become very strong, fast and more durable, and in such case they would stand a chance against 3rd Oath definitely (except those that can escape to CR, hide with Illusions or fly, there it would depend just how fast they could be and for how long). Against plate it would depend on what the weaponry they have.
- If they cannot store effects of A-pewter, they are dead, as they are strictly weaker than Mistborn and 3rd Oath radiant could take Mistborn more often than not in open battle.
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A-Chromium/F-Nicrosil
- They would lose, as again they are strictly weaker than Mistborn, and any Radiant is stronger, faster and more dexterous. Radiant could easily kill them before this Twinborn could touch them to use A-chromium (as Leeching requires touch).
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Thug/Steelrunner (A-pewter/F-steel)
- F-steel is OP please nerf. But seriously, even if they are moving "only" at ~100m/s (which should be sustainable without damage to body) they should be able to take down those Radiants they can reach (with proper weapons of course). Again, some Radiants could escape (either CR, flight or Illusions), and potentially attack them from stealth, but that would depend on details of battle.
For Compounders you listed as killing Radiants (either 4th oath, or in CR):
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Twin Iron
- They can push/pull harder than usual due to better weight, but they cannot affect Shardplate/Shardblade. Since they can only pull they have worse offense and mobility than Mistborn, so I would see this going to 3rd oath and above Radiant, and maybe some 2nd Oath orders as well (if there was not much metal around).
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Twin Steel
- F-steel, nuf said. With good weapons they win, period.
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Twin Brass
- They lose? They can only manipulate emotions a bit, and not as strongly as someone with A-duralumin. If Radiant has Stormlight they should not have an issue killing them, even in CR. If they have guns in CR, then yeah they could kill Radiant, but that is the gun doing the work not the Twinborn.
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Twin Zinc
- As Twin Brass, although they have a better shot at killing the Radiant in CR (or 3rd/2nd Oath out of CR) due to mental speed, if they have guns (but again, that is the gun doing the work).
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Twin Pewter
- If they tap F-pewter as much as they can without compromising too much mobility and flare A-pewter on top of that, they are about 11x as strong as human, at cost of being less dexterous than usual and a bit slower than usually to A-pewter burn. Against 4th Oath in plate they do not stand much chance, as those are just as strong and fast, and much more durable with better offense to boot. Against 3rd Oath, they might take them, if they use F-pewter to launch surprise attack, but they would need to be close to do that, which is very risky for them.
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Twin Aluminum
- Yeah, no combat abilities whatsoever, much worse than a Mistborn in combat, so they would get killed.
Often in your combat scenarios what was crucial was a gun, not any magical abilities. That is an argument for gun being a good tool in combat, not an argument for given Twinborn being good in combat.
So Shallan can kill Kelsier by shooting ray of light at him, per your interpretation? That is good to know, no need to fear the only Fullborn then, correct ray of light is going to slay him.
Of course that is not actually possible, as again creating light and creating gaseous investiture are two very different things. So no, neither Lightweavers nor Truthwatchers can actually do that, and neither can Scadrians create lasers of anti-investiture (since creating investiture is not something that can be done, and especially not creating investiture of another Shard using a different Shard, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e1710 ), lets quote the relevant parts
Thanks for the list. One thing aluminum twins would be is largely immune to surge attacks and capable of reversing shard damage. Beyond that other things I have imagined for their potential are educated extreme speculation based on the one thing it can store and why I think that makes it able to counter investiture and power. Aluminum is a blackhole to investiture of any kind except Identity and I think there is a reason for that an aluminum twin might be able to tap into. Check out my fan fic but don't expect it to be strictly Cosmere accurate to what is proven.
Most twins would be most effective in a support position to any armed conflict. Since you guys are more often on the side that Roshar is the nearly inevitable victor in a conflict I will leave the creative uses of the surges to you. It seems most of the surge applications that are quoted are brute force applications which from my perspective aluminum can both neutralize and resist.
Of course we can predict developments since we have the ground rules for the system. Not all of them since some of those ground rules are vague. One of those developments is that we cannot predict how or when the conflict will start. Neither side can reach the other in force at this time and Radiants are particularly stuck for now. We do know Scadrians will have space travel which may be what finally bridges the gap en-mass. Also at this time any world except Roshar, Rosharan's lose, but Scadrians have full access to both their tech and magic on any world even Roshar. At their tech level now they would have to have access to and to cross the CR which severely limits Radiant retreats to the CR.
Let me give you the formulas for weight increase.
Stored weight = 25% of total weight for a day which I estimate to be 50 lbs. I didn't break it down into hours.
compounded weight uses the initial 50 lbs for 1 day and compounds it 5 times which is 10^5 * 50. That equals being 5 million lbs for 1 day once compounded that is tappable. He would have 25,000 times his normal mass for an entire day (when would you need to be that heavy for an entire day). Compress the time and you lose some mass, but extend the time and you keep it all. All compounding would have similar magnitudes.
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Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW
in Cosmere Discussion
Posted
yes you are right pushing any invested thing is a matter of force or perhaps skill. someone like Wax might not be able to push a shardblade in general but might be precise enough to push the tip with enough force to divert it.
Your right I got gold mixed with Malatium, but a better self understanding might lead to more personal options and unpredictability.
That's just it in the battles they don't give distances to enable calculations only general relative positions and motion. Even travel between places is generic without exact distances or precise travel times. again they are relatively fast vs regular conveyance.
Aluminum does seem to burn fast and near instantly removes other metals, but because of that it also doesn't take much to clear metals so it burning fast may be due to the minimal amount that is used not its actual burning speed.
Suppressors seem to work through connection interference which is why lower oaths went to sleep and surges became more difficult. Anti investiture would be destructive not suppressing. So far anti-investiture is only confirmed with Roshar's investiture fuel.
Yes surgebinding can have some degree of limited versatility, skill, and cunning. Any Radiant can have 2 defined surges and their resonance based on the spren and can use those with a degree of versatility, skill, and cunning. Their fabrials cannot replicate Radiant surges to create other interactions yet since that is a lost art. Metalborn can have any number of combinations and their resonances to create a much greater degree of versatility, skill, and cunning to work with, and their medalions do replicate metalborn abilities. That means a single metalborn without damage could have 5 metalborn powers to combine at once and interact with each other. Standard medalions can hold 3 powers at a time and if given to a twin born that means 5 interacting powers potential for each individual metalborn. It was the variety of power combinations and interactions I was referring to when I said Scadrians have greater versatility. I wasn't refering to the versatile use of a limited set of powers evident in Radiants.