Honorless

Not much, just chilling

Welcome to the Shard, @Anxietyspren! Hmm... is the native Rosharan Kaladin by any chance? Or Jasnah or Lift?

@Bigmikey357, I think I'm going to disagree with your point here. Moash did think to pay back Kaladin with the one thing he got the chance to pay him with, he tried to bring Kaladin into the fold with Graves' conspiracy to try to assassinate Elhokar to give him a chance for vengeance out of a sense of kinship. Messed up, I know, but technically the truth

Well articulated, @Booknerd, I agree. The only thing that helps not worsen my perspective of that topic is the fact that lighteyes have so much political power that what happened was literally within Elhokar's and Amaram's legal rights even if Kaladin was proven right. Dalinar was way ahead of his time in handling that situation. This level of disparity is later proven (even more) true in Oathbringer, during Kaladin's return to Hearthstone, where someone speculates that the Shash Nahn brand was given to Kaladin for hitting a lighteyes! That's messed up! That reminds me how much worse the skaa had it in Mistborn era 1... plantations under the ashen sky, no pay, child killed for spoiling a party, teatime and decapitations by the fountain,...

Oddly, on occasion, I sense a peacefulness within. You would think that after all I have seen - after all that I have suffered - my soul would be a twisted jumble of stress, confusion, and melancholy. Often, it's just that. But then, there is the peace. I feel it sometimes, as I do now, staring out over the frozen cliffs and glass mountains in the still of the morning, watching a sunrise that is so majestic that I know that none shall ever be its match. If there are prophecies, if there is a Hero of Ages, then my mind whispers that there must be something directing my path. Something is watching; something cares. These peaceful whispers tell me a truth I wish very much to believe. If I fail, another shall come to finish my work. ~from Alendi's journal, the Final Empire Poor Alendi, poor Leras Edit: oops! When Lift follows Nale "I will listen to those who have been ignored" damnation, that made all the "Voidbringer!" comments bearable

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! thank you! thank you! thank you!

I believe that what you stated in the title of your topic is correct: yes, the Cosmere does exist in a multiverse but I don't know about the "every possibility is true" version of the multiverse. I mean, Brandon always explained Fortune in a mathematical manner- as though peering into the Spiritual Realm expanded one's mind and opened it to multiple possibilities, that their minds were now running on a faster OS with better calculating power due to their Spiritual aspect being their perfect selves. Then again he has also described it as a place where "time and place are one". But when he talks about the mechanics of two Atium users or one Atium and one Electrum user or the situation with Renarin in Odium's expanded Diagram, he always expressed them as calculations of probability. I think of the Cosmere as being contained within a multiverse in a different sense, because of the WoBs stating that:

@Karger, you sir have made me have cravings for bonded battle-Chasmfiends!

Personally, that was the moment I lost respect for Dalinar. And then the situation with having Amaram as the head of the new Knights Radiant... oof. He eventually made good but I felt as betrayed as Kaladin. Also after that moment cemented my dislike of Elhokar. Instant reaction: execution! But Adolin's show of solidarity after that scene was what made me attached to him as a character. It didn't make me loose my faith in Kaladin. Just made me feel more distant to him, he is so... defeated. That was a bigger show of vulnerability than the entire WoK on his part, imo. So that really enriched his character for me.

I voted for Eshonai primarily because I really liked her But I genuinely believe that having her as the flashback character would add more to the story. At this point, our understanding of Singer/Listener/Parshendi (what are we supposed to call them now? first one is dated, second one refers to a split-off group that survived the False Desolation with their minds intact and the last is an exonym. None encapsulate the whole newly freed group of people) culture is still lacking. We do know that humans (both Ashynites and Iriali, and possibly the Dysian and Siah Aimians too, while the rest of the races like the Natan, Unkalaki, Herdazian are just descendants of these other groups' mixing) were refugees on Roshar. Then they slowly conquered it. We haven't really had the perspective of the Listeners on the sorrow, memories and sheer scale of history of the original native people of Roshar who are slowly losing their entire world. We will eventually get the sorrow of losing one's world for humanity, I think, since the Heralds are set to be flashback characters in the back five plus there is the Silence Divine. We saw what their society was like at the brink of extinction but not how they were before Alethi contact. We do really need Eshonai to tell her story rather than Venli because she is a much more empathetic character. I remember reading the chapter in Oathbringer where Dalinar tries to negotiate with Venli, and feeling frustrated that with how she was acting before being horrified at the fact that I'm basically asking her to forgive generations of war where her entire race was systematically wiped out by the people they had provided succor to, their spren and even their gods chose to side with the interlopers. Oh, we know, yes but there is still a disconnect between knowing and understanding, and I think Eshonai will be better, narratively, to bridge that gap. Eshonai's curiosity would be a good foil to Venli's bitterness, I think, as per Brandon Sanderson's original plans. While I agree that Venli would have interesting stories to tell, with her researching on the Forms of Power, meeting Ulim the Voidspren and knowingly bringing the True Desolation, tricking her sister and sabotaging peace attempts but these things can easily be told from her perspective as she thinks back to them. It will add to an interesting story, sure, but not an especially enriching one. What really made the Stormlight Archives special to me was the moral complexity of the situation, expanded upon in each of the books, not the magical technicalities (though those are pretty awesome too, especially since they are literally bound to the former). Venli, I feel, is really only good as a flashback character for the magical side of things. She wouldn't be bad for building up the story of the Listener people but she would end up furthering her own story more than her people's. That's where Eshonai's empathy would be more enjoyable for me. The questions that Venli can answer can still be answered by her, in the present. Eshonai, however, is gone and we can only get that part of the story from the flashbacks.

Hmmmmm.... Could it be someone other than the usual suspects? Wasn't there something about needing Elantris Books 2 & 3 before getting to Mistborn era 3? Devotion or Dominion (or a combination of the two) if someone manages to Ascend despite them being stuffed into the Cognitive Realm of Sel, deciding to attack Scadrial would make for a shocking turn! So sad that list doesn't include Ambition.. If she had survived Odium's onslaught and then decided to conquer Scadrial, that would've been awesome! Also, the fact that Mistborn 2nd era is set after Stormlight 5 and before Stormlight 6 might very well be more indicative of it being a Rosharan Shard. Who better than Odium? He has a history of attacking other Shards.. Also, there are so many Worldhoppers taking interest in Roshar. Could be that one of them steal (and I would consider it theft) Honor, that is to say Ascend in a manner similar to how the Ire were planning to do with Preservation. I'd be very sad if Cultivation dies so I'm not considering it. But we do know that Cultivation, if she were on Scadrial would've opposed Preservation rather than Ruin, as the former would become less about protecting and more about stasis, while both Ruin and Cultivation are about change. Maybe she escapes Roshar and decides to punt the new god off to make space for herself. This would affect Scadrial and Roshar very harshly but would be very interesting to see! But it probably is Autonomy. Mostly because of Paalm's comments of being free of Harmony's influence and the name of the god being Trell as it appears multiple times in White Sand (Trell the mason, Mastrell, Lestrell). Plus, Autonomy is suspected to have aided Odium in splintering various other Shards (Devotion, Dominion, maybe even Honor!) Within Trelagism (now Trellism?) the belief was in a god of the sun and a god of the stars. People worshiped the latter while pretending to worship the former as "he was a jealous god" and "his single burning eye" (Sauron reference!) "hid the Thousand Eyes of Trell". On Taldain there are two sides called Dayside and Darkside, so physically similar to what the faith might be describing. Plus, I always thought the Purelaker faith of Nu Ralik and Vun Makak were also very similar, with them also worshiping one god while pretending to worship the other jealous god (it could also mean that the Investiture in the Purelake fishes belongs to Autonomy! It fits with how her systems normally interact with the local fauna, as seen in Sand Mastery lichen and parasitic worms of Patji's Fingers that the Aviar swallow) Or it could be worse: both Odium and Autonomy attacking Scadrial. Then again maybe Scadrial would prevail and Kelsier might join the two Shards to create Revolution!!!!! (that would be even better than Kelsier going on a spaceship in Era 4, seeking the Shard Ambition wherever she ran off to after getting mortally wounded by Odium, to become a real god! )

I had read it in its entirety and loved it! Wonderfully compiled! But you too missed that scene in WoK where they discuss schools of ethics! Why?! I loved that scene! Agreed, with all of the points there. Jasnah is misunderstood in both Roshar and by many readers and that post was scary long! It took me hours to go through it all!

Welcome to the Shard, @FridgedCrisis, glad you made it safely

Glad to have you here, @Fan Till The End. What's your favourite book (not just Sanderson but everything that you've read)? Seems you double-posted. Just go to the other topic, at the top there's a bar that says 'moderate', click hide, state your reason (that you accidentally double-posted) and you're good to go. Don't worry, I did that too when I joined. Hope you enjoy the Shard! Don't listen to @ElephantEarwax! Do not repeat that phrase!

Granted, your teeth are now how they were before you got braces (so, no braces!) Your bane is that your breath will always smell bad I wish for all the Elder Scrolls games, for free

@Nellac, thank you! That's probably a very important part of why Moash is so heavily disliked that I overlooked. He is the only character we see in the Stormlight Archives actually becoming worse (arguably aside from Shallan, part of why people are annoyed with her post-WoR). @Solant, Dai-Gonarthis? Huh, that is a really great theory! The Unmade and their effects are presented from the perspective of the native Rosharans, to whom these have become everyday events, like with the Alethi Thrill... and with such a human thing to think, in a vulnerable moment when a person would want to believe what the Unmade is saying... yup, it could be Dai-Gonarthis the Black Fisher "holding people's sorrows and consuming it". It's suitably Odium-y and his theme of Void and "Give me your pain!" @Karger, completely agree. With Sadeas especially, there is a disconnect between the reader and the character because we, in real life, wouldn't have faced anything on that scale, his personality doesn't really facilitate such understanding either. It's the same in many superhero stories. People don't hate the final villain. In fact, the final villain seems kinda cool. The first few villains though... they fall within the scale of what we can feasibly grasp and feel a connection too. It reminds me of 'Worm' by John C. McCrae, where the final villain who goes on a rampage of world destruction doesn't seem as evil as the first villain we see, simply because the latter's actions can be comprehended within our own scale of evil. You are right, it would be easy to have an understanding of where Moash is coming from because people would have experienced getting angry & feeling vengeful and then feeling disturbed as, instead of Moash dealing with it, we get to see him in both WoR and Oathbringer going completely off the rails. It might seem to be a mirror but only reflecting the ugly side of oneself. @ND103, indeed, the side we choose doesn't define us (just ask Venli!) And yes, the plot gets what it needs. If none of the bad things happened, the story itself would be worse off for it. As for the Moash haters: it's the internet and people tend to go crazy with the anonymity and start cussing at people, which they wouldn't do face-to-face (hopefully).

Exactly. Sometimes it feels like people reacted to the perceived ideal moral response rather than actual human response. Which is a damnation shame because that means they're missing a big chunk of what makes these books amazing* (though these reactions are understandable given how powerful the moments of self-improvement were) *As for that amazing part: an honest exploration of subjectivity

The ending, huh There's a very long, freely available web serial available online called Worm by John C McCrae under the pen name (err.. user name) of Wildbow It is an amazing exploration of morality and choices. Quite grimdark, very logical in its approach to Powers, highly recommended

Thank you for that consideration! Most people just assume whoever's talking to them is a dude by default unless they specify they're a girl

It means: as far as I know

@Kaladin-Stormblessed thank you for presenting your opinions and contributing to the discussion at hand Roshone was partially responsible. Elhokar, out of embarrassment, delayed their release. It was that which led to their deaths. Agreed, but Elhokar's casual disregard for darkeyes isn't tempered by a genial nature towards all human beings either that Shallan and Adolin have. Agreed on the other points

Agreed with @Ahriman, partly. Don't want more Kholin Radiants. (sorry Adolin, sorry Navani) They're perfect just as they are. If they were magical too... While I do want Maya to heal I believe that in stories some things should remain impossible to achieve, no matter how much better things might be if they were possible. Maybe, he talks to Maya throughout and finally in Book 10 she comes back but as a friend not his Nahel Bond spren granting him Radiancy. She's bound to have trauma at this point. They might have a little talk at the Epilogue... yes, I can already picture it. That would be more beautiful.

Silnasen, Stormwardens, Shshshshsh, Strifelover, Singers,...

That video is irrelevant to the argument. Moash didn't intend to kick little Gavinor Kholin, Kaladin didn't interpret it as him kicking Elhokar's son either, just shoving him away. Please don't try to explain the physics of getting kicked by a trained, muscular man. He shoved Gavinor away from Elhokar by his foot. Some cultures *really* frown upon that, including mine, so I was like "Hey, don't do that!", yeah, it's an ingrained thing that came to mind, even as he was shoving away a child from his father to kill the latter cleanly. Right in front of his child (and Kaladin, whom he then gave the sign of respect and friendship that they had forged in a truly hellish place). So, not arguing that what Moash did to little Gavinor wasn't horrible. It was. In fact, it was far more horrible. He didn't kick him. He orphaned him. Made extra sure that his father was dead by stabbing him again. That's brutal. Still, he didn't, in fact, kick little Gavinor.

Huh, so we have two confirmed Avatars of Autonomy. Patji refers to Autonomy as 'us' (please no Communism jokes) and seems up to date on the Avatar on Obrodai, in fact actively involved in her formation... As well as two new confirmed Shardworlds: Obrodai and "these waters", probably referring to FotS Other Shardworlds we know of: Scadrial, Roshar, Sel, Nalthis, Taldain, Yolen, Ashyn, Braize, Second of the Sun, Third of the Sun (First through Third are assuming that they are not, in fact Obrodai), and the ever mysterious Vax (I wonder if it might be another Autonomy world, given that it was mentioned alongside Taldain by Khriss in her notes on Sel in the Arcanum) For reference this is the letter written by Patji addressed to Cephandrius: Obrodai is the world where the new Avatar of Autonomy is being formed. "These waters", on the other hand, probably refer to First of the Sun due to "the tests". We also have this WoB: The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three. When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing. I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time. We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have. Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists. You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring. Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of mater and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time. And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time. I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers... Overlord Jebus You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals). Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard? Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now. Brandon Sanderson I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story. Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it. Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story. I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one. Chaos Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy? Brandon Sanderson When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple. Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though. General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018) This WoB seems to imply that Shards can use Investiture associated with them, which they did not hold or interact with in a direct manner during their Ascension. This Investiture is affiliated with the Intent of the Shard but not consciously utilized by the Shareholder, rather having been put to use to create an ecosystem by Adonalsium. Also note that Investiture, by its very nature, seeks to gain sentience. Meaning, Autonomy might not be Splintering herself. She might instead be proliferating. There's more of her, in number and scale of Investiture. This might still use a bit of her Cognitive aspect though, we don't know. Thank you @Elegy for your criticisms on my theory, thank you to rest of you too for contributing @ChickenLiberty, @mathiau, @Ixthos, @Nnatel, and I too saw what you did there @Toaster Retribution. Other threads speculating on Obrodai: