Tglassy

This is what I've been saying. In nearly all of the inevitable "which metals would you want" or "Which Twinborn combo would you want" I almost always say Allomantic Pewter. It just does so freaking much. Allomantic Steel is a close second, cause flying and manipulating Magnatism is awesome, but I mean...Pewter doesn't just enhance strength, it enhances EVERYTHING. Vin could run that fast and not trip because her balance and coordination was just as enhanced. It's said Mistborn tend to perch, and like being up high, because they just don't fear heights and they have the surity that their balance is up for the task. And to Compound Pewter...it just gets insane. Honestly, I think one of the strongest contenders would be a Double Pewter Twinborn with Hemalurgic Spikes granting Feruchemical Healing and speed, and Steelpushing. No Compounding Speed, but near infinite strength alongside all the other stuff pewter can do, and you can use the Pewter to store the health and speed more than normal. Sort of like a poor man's compounder.

Wait, who's a dragon in Oathbringer?

In Brandon's first book, Elantris, there's an epilogue where Hoid baths in the glowing liquid pool (now known as a Perpendicularity) to try to become an Elantrian, and it doesn't work. As of Tress and the Emerald Sea, Hoid is now an Elantrian. A Radiant Mistborn Elantrian with who knows how many Breaths, and who knows what else! The Cosmere trembles at the shenanigans that will soon be laid upon it.

I imagine a fully trained Elend would have dominated pretty much any other Mistborn of the era. If I'm not mistaken, Vin struggles to keep up with Kel through the run. He probably did hold back, at least enough for her to keep up with him. He was more experienced and she too new, along with being half his size. I know the dominances were huge. Sazed goes across one in a week using up all his stored Speed, but supposedly it would have taken months otherwise. That's a long way.

I think you're on the right track, as I had the same thought. It actually made me wonder if any of the OTHER Unmade are Aethers, though I don't have enough of a grounding in the Aethers to know if that's possible.

When Vin and Kel sprinted to the army in the first book, that was an all out sprint, and took, what, 12 hrs? And that WAS an all out sprint. They'd only stop to suck down some water and pewter beads. Pewter makes you more resiliant, as well as heal faster. So it would be more difficult for you to actually injure yourself by exertion. Not necessarily impossible, but difficult. But thing is, when pewterdragging, if you ever stop burning pewter before your body recovers, you die. You just die. Your heart gives out from the exertion hitting you all at once. You gotta keep burning Pewter until it helps you recover. Stormlight would probably let you run the same way, though you'd never get to Pewter Speed without Plate. But yeah, all out sprint never getting tired, as it would heal any fatigue instantly. And a plus side of that is you COULD just up and stop, and you'd be fine, because you are already completely healed. The exertion isn't stacking up, like it does with Pewter. However, I believe you'd very quickly exaust your Stormlight. We've seen an individual with no formal training run for 12 hours straight on Pewter. We've never seen someone hold Stormlight for that long unless they were flying. And flying doesn't require that kind of exertion.

I was under the assumption that the reason he could harm Kel was because he wasn't actually harming Kel, and all the pain and whatnot was just in Kel's head. If he'd had any experience being a ghost, Hoid wouldn't have been able to hurt him. There is no spoon, and all that.

Honest, good faith discussion. Pulling out things like "He'll just join the Oathpact" or "He can just ask the Nightwatcher" aren't answers. They're ridiculous. We all are fans of these stories, we all want to have a discussion on who we believe is stronger, but when you bring up ridiculous counterpoints, or puruposefully tip the scales against who you have decided is your opponent, it degrades the discussion into "well my dinosaur eats your force field dog", which just isn't helpful, because you KNOW it doesn't work like that. You KNOW these things are not actual options. You can't just ask the Nightwatcher, because you don't get to choose what she gives you. She could just as easily make the Stormfather's bondsmith only able to use Lifelight as his curse, thus nulifying all his abilities because he's bonded to the Spren that grants Stormlight and so he doesn't have access to Lifelight. It's a piece of random chance that is not helpful. And I know that you didn't bring up the Nightwatcher here, but you have in the past, and "He'll just make himself part of the Oathpact and keep trying until he wins" is literally the same kind of ridiculous. Or when you said NaerGaul could take over the Koloss when he's at the bottom of the ocean and doesn't work for anyone anyway cause he's a mindless unmade. Or when we talk about Soulcasters and you bring up them Soulcasting a block around someone's head or hopping to the CR to soulcast an entire army, that's just disengenuous, because if that were possible, Jasnah would have done it. These kinds of answers just degrade the discussion and are not in good faith. And mainly, there are so many amazing things a Bondsmith may be able to do that could win this fight, that bringing up ridiculous, off the wall things is almost a disservice. Bondsmiths manipulate Spiritual Connection, right? I don't think that a Fullborn's powers are based on Connection, but on their own Spiritweb, but they could maybe disrupt the Connection between the Fullborn and his Metalminds. No metalminds, and all they have is Allomancy. That's a big power cut. Or do what Ishar did and make the ground connected to the Fullborn so the metalminds believe the ground is part of the Fullborn, thus draining the metalminds extremely quickly as it tries to to fill the ground itself with investiture. That might backfire, though, if the Fullborn tries to store Weight, lol. All of a sudden, the entire planet, or at least all of the area around them, is suddenly weightless. But the thing is, Bondsmiths don't really have any offensive ability. Like, at all. They don't fight. They lead. They don't get blades, their powers aren't made to harm, though there are likely harmful applications. They just aren't offensive powerhouses. The Fullborn is. As far as we've seen, the Bondsmith has to touch a person to manipulate their Connection (except the one time with Kaladin in the storm, but he may have counted since they were all in the Space Betwen Spaces), and if that's the case, then the Fullborn wins. The Fullborn is too fast. Too strong. And while the Bondsmith may have Plate, they don't have Blades, and their powers don't deal damage. Even increasing the earth's connection to the Fullborn to make them so heavy they crush themselves doesn't work cause the Fullborn would just store the extra weight in an Ironmind. The reason I never count out a Mistborn in against a Radiant is that they have so many tricks and abilities, they almost always have something that can help. Well, a Fullborn is that in multitudes. The only being I think that could beat Rashek is, actually, Susebron, or however you spell his name. Cuase with over 50,000 breaths, he can awaking things with his mind, that he's not touching, and instinctively. Which means he can literally create 5,000 Nightbloods. And he doesn't need to. He only needs to make one. Nightblood killed a god. Susebron may even be powerful enough to awaken metalminds. Or at least the clothing the Fullborn is wearing. Not sure if it would be enough, but it would be a good fight. But even then, a Fullborn has access to Chromium, and can leach power. Whether they have enough to leach someone like Susebron, or if that would even work with a Bondsmith's apparent infinite Stormlight, I don't know, but it's something. But a Bondsmith? Even one who is Unchained? He'd have to be REALLY creative, because he'd have the span of an eyeblink before his head is taken from his shoulders and he just doesn't have the offensive or defensive capability to deal with that. Dalinar hasn't fought hardly anyone since becoming a Bondsmitth. Not really. And Navani would lose outright, fabriels or no. And I get snarky when the person I'm having a discussion with is obviously not discussing in good faith. If you're going to be ridiculouus, Imma be ridiculous. I appologize if I go to far, sometimes.

You gotta remember that in the distant past, the people usually didn't even have steal. Radiants are relatively new in the grand scheme of the fight. They suffered many desolations without them. Without ANY help except the Heralds, who were able to help train and prepare to fight off armies of Singers. When Radiants came, they DID gather people in the ten oathgate cities. And Alethela was the nation who prepared for war so the others could live in peace. And they fought off the Desolations over and over. So obviously they were effective. But the people STILL didn't have access to hardly anything. Those wars were more brutal. There were no fabrials save for soulcasters. An while Radiants are awesome, they can't be everywhere. Just look at the vision Dalinar had with the Midnight Essence. A village attacked in the middle of the night, and only two Knights showed up to protect them. Now, those two knights may be all they needed, but tell that to the number of people who died before they got there. These wars aren't just fought in the ten big cities, but in every village and town across a very large continent. And while Thunderclasts, Fused, and the 9 Unmade haven't shown themselves as too terribly threatening to the Radiants, they HAVE shown nearly impossibly deadly to normal people, and they vastly outnumber the Radiants. You can't look at someone like Moash and Kaladin as examples of the average person fighting these things.

Honestly, if I'm a Fullborn, and I'm in the current world, and there were no other metalborn or magic and it was just me? First thing I'd do would be to train in secret. Learn all my abilities . And then I'd start compounding attributes. All of them. I would make sure to never reveal to anyone how my magic works. It would just work. I'd systematyically learn exactly what my limits were. How much Health can I store in a single Goldmind? How much strength, etc. How much Steel do I need to make sure I don't run out in a day? I'd then take those numbers and craft whatever bracers, rings or whatnot that I needed. I'd probably imbed most of my metalminds in my skin in inocuous places, so I'd never be without them. Then? I don't think there's a force on the planet that could stop me, save a nuclear explosion. So...I'd really just do whatever I wanted. In all honesty, once I had all my powers down, I'd probably use it to make some money first. Not sure how, but Emotional Allomancy may be involved. I tend to agree with Breeze in whether or not it's immoral. Emotional Allomancy is no different than a woman wearing a revealing top to get men to do what she wants. Once I had all the money I ever needed, and all my family and closest friends were taken care of, I'd probably pick a project and run with it. Righting the wrongs I see in the world. Not saying I'd do the whole 'superhero' thing, but I'd do what I could to fix things. Not sure what that would look like, but when you have that kind of power, you should use it to better those around you. And as a Fullborn, it would be similar to when Dr. Manhattan joined the Veitnam war. If there was a war and I decded to stop it, I could stop it. All you gotta do is kill the people in charge.

Yeah, but that's not really the point. The point is whether it increases speed by double as well as strength, and I believe it really should. If Usane Bolt got ahold of pewter, I think he would leave Vin in the dust.

He's neither. His voice is neither, as well. People assign gender to him. I'm an American English speaker, and I was taught (or remember being taught) that "it" was reserved for inanimate objects or things that were not people, and is considered rude when applied to a person, therefore the genders used for people are "He" and "She", and when the gender is unknown, you revert to "He", as "He" can, in this case, be gender neutral. Now, today, I've heard people throw a fit at that saying something something patriarchy keeping power or something, but I've never seen it that way. It just reserves feminine language for when something is known to be feminine, and in my mind that is so it is not insulted by being called masculine. Nobody cares if the masculine is insulted, so they get to be the blank 'gender neutral' one. But that's just how I've always seen it. Using that logic, you'd refer to Nightblood as a He simply because his gender is unknown, or if it is known that he doesn't have a gender, then 'he' would be preferable to 'it", since "It" denotes it is not a person, and "He" would be preferable to "She" as "She" would be a misnomer because in my mind, while "he" can be gender neutral, "she" is always feminine, and if he doesn't have a gender, he isn't feminine. However, in Nightblood's case, he hasn't selected a gender because he doensn't understand the concept, even if it fascinates him, and therefore it really is whatever the person talking to him wants to assign him. Lift decided Nightblood is a she. Most others think Nightblood is a he. It just depends.

Oh. Right. Yes. Let's just turn our souls into the keys that hold back a god for no other reason than because it would make ourselves immortal for an imagined fight against some random dude in the cosmere cause a bunch of people who like reading our stories can see who would win, letting that god run rampant as much as he wants until the Bondsmith figures out a way to kill the other guy. Cause THAT makes sense. Honestly, this is another thread I'm out of, again. The arguments just aren't made in good faith. This is just as bad as "Just ask the nightwatcher.".

Which, again, is the only way you can justify the Bondsmith winning. By putting them in a situation that overwhelmingly favors the Bondsmith. Thus proving their inferiority to Fullborn. No, cause once they die, they go to Braise and get tortured. Not sure how this is a 'win'. Pretty sure the Fullborn would have won the fight, regardless. Just look at the Heralds. None of them are sane. That's a loss on all accounts. But they don't have Blades. Or at the very least, the Stormfather's Bondsmith won't. So that should be striken from their assets.

Not quite. He's literally pulling Stormlight through his bond with the Stormfather. He doesn't need spheres. Same with Navani at the end of RoW. She just creates Towerlight by pulling it through her bond. She doesn't need spheres.

I will be honest, the reveal at the end of RoW made my head explode, because I didn't know about it. When that same reveal happens in TLM, it is much, much less impactful. It's just treated as if the reader already knows about it. But when i read RoW and this one little comment came and was basically a throw away line, I went WHAAAAAT!?!?!?!1! But you can do either or. I've relistened to all of Stormlight after knowing the reveal, and it does put a different light on things, but I would be lying if I said it is more impactful if you don't know going in, whereas TLM treats it as if you already know.

I think StanLemon is right. The only way to make this fight winnable for the Bondsmith is to tilt everything in the Bondsmith's favor, which just shows how much of a disadvantage they have against the Fullborn. Make sure the Fullborn doesn't have his metalminds, etc. And are we forgetting something? I don't think Bondsmiths HAVE plate. They can't even have Blades. The only Bondsmith with a Blade that we've seen so far is Ishar, and he's a Herald with an Honorblade giving him his powers. Dalinar may not GET plate when he gets to the fourth ideal. The Stormfather said he "Would be a Radiant without Shards." Shards. Plural. Blade iss ONE shard. Plate is another. That's where you get plural from. It means having more than one (I know this because my English teacher said so.) So when making this comparison, it would be valid to say that the Bondsmith at the very least does not have a Blade. In that case...I'm thinking there really isn't a way he can win. Though, While I hate to support the other side in this, Bondsmiths can, in fact, create their Light themselves. Dalinar charges, or overcharges, radiants with Stormlight without having to open a Perpendicularity. So technically, the Unchained Bondsmith has access to Stormlight at all times without spheres. Though, notably, only Ishar's Blade and the Stormfather's Bondsmith will be able to draw Stormlight. The Sibling's Bondsmith draws Towerlight, and the Nightwatcher's would draw Lifelight. Not sure if that would make a differenc, but it's there.

The space between spaces is a place in your mind only. There's no phsyical aspect to it. They pull your mind into a place where the Stormfather or the Bondsmith can muddle with perception of time, but it isn't actually time dialation. It's just speeding up mental processing and perception. But only in that mental space. There is nothin the books to suggest a Bondsmith or the Stormfather can cause the world to slow down so the Bondsmith can percieve it faster. So no, the Bondsmith still loses, even if he spends an hour in the "Space between spaces" while the Fullborn rushes to him and rips his head off, because being in that Space between Spaces, he wouldn't be cognizant of what is happening on the outside. And even if he WERE cognizant, like the Stormfather saying "Uh, dude, he's about to rip your head off", having a high mental speed would do nothing but let him watch, in excruciating detail, as the Fullborn came and ripped his head off without being able to move or do anything about it. Bondsmith loses. The Flash wins. The end.

Pretty sure having this conversation with Frustration is going to be futile. The Radiant will be an all powerful god, the Fullborn will be incompetent and stupid. And when all else fails, he'll just say "Ask the Nightwatcher". The Fullborn wins evertime. The Flash would always win. Superman would always win. The only reason they don't in the comics is because they hold themselves back. It doesn't matter what the Bondsmith can do. He can't move at blurring speed and have nigh infinite strength at the same time. It doesn't matter what Connections they have or what preperations they make. They lose, because they can't react fast enough. And if the Fullborn has knowledge of Hemalurgy, a single Alluminum Spike ends the game. The Fullborn would have it inserted before the Bondsmith could think. The Bondsmith can't affect the Connections of the Fullborn, because the Fullborn can store those Connections, or compound them to an infinite degree. And theoretical abilities ascribed to Bondsmiths, or any Radiant, is a pointless argument. Unless we've seen it happen in book, they can't do it. Dalinar vs Rashek would die without giving any kind of fuss. He doesn't know what a Bondsmith could do. Ishar knows more, but even he is experimenting to see what's possible. But we've SEEN what Rashek can do, in book. Ishar took on a whole group of windrunners with ease, but Rashek would tear him limb from limb and shove an Alluminum spike in him so fast he wouldn't even feel the pain. I get that Radiants are powerful, but pretending like everything on Scadrial, from their technology to their military to their magic systems to their culture, is second class to Roshar is just being willfully obtuse.

If you haven't finished Oathbringer, I suggest doing so. I've listened to all the Stormlight books over half a dozen times, and before RoW came out, and it was because I wanted to get back to the end of Oathbringer. It isn't about the magic system. It isn't about the stakes. It isn't about who is more powerful than whom. It's about the people. It's about Dalinar's struggles with who he was vs who he is. It's about Kaladin's depression, which I relate to deeply. It's about people, real people, who yeah have superpowers, but in having superpowers still struggle with the same issues that we struggle with. It's about understanding ourselves, and learning to rise above our past, or our own natures, and be better people. Shallan is about being honest with one's self and accepting what has happened to you while not accepting that you deserved it. Kaladin is about understanding that when it is dark, it is just a season, and that there HAVE been good times, even if you can't remember them, and there will be again. Dalinar is about accepting who you were, but not accepting that you have to stay that way. THESE are the reasons I love these books. The magic is fun. But it was always secondary. The moment when Kaladin realized he and his men could be free...but they just had to sacrifice an entire army to do it. The moment when Kaladin realized that the King was Dalinar's TIen, and just because someone is invonvenient doesn't mean they are worthless. The moments when Shallan admits what she's done. The moment when Teft, in tears, finally makes his Oath. The moment when Dalinar accepts responsibility for his actions. The moment Maya speaks. The moment when Kaladin accepts that he cannot protect everyone. These moments are the climaxes. Not the fight against the Parshendi, or against Moash, or against the Fused. Those are backdrops. Fun backdrops, but backdrops. The climaxes is the personal revelations. The acknoledgements of how things really are, and the promises to become better. I see myself in many of these characters, or aspects, at least, and going through their stories helps me go through mine. One thing that does frustrate me is that there are a lot of people here that seem to ascribe more power to them than there is. Things like soulcasting a brick around someone's head, or jumping to the CR to soulcast an entire army. These things are just not feasible for one reason or another, because if they were, Jasnah would have done it. Powers are ascribed to the Radiants that just aren't in the books. Division is bonkers? When? We've only seen it once! Sort of! Nale doesn't even use it! If it was so powerful, why doesn't he just use it to wipe out all of Dalinar's armies? If you read the various threads here, it makes it seem that if certain members of our community were to be in charge of the Radiants at Urutheru, the entire war would have been over by now, becasue who could ever imagine they couldn't win? Or you can trust that it just doesn't work that way. Soulcasters can't just soulcast a block around someone's head, and jumping to the CR wouldn't help them soulcast an entire army. Maybe at one time they could, but these Radiants don't have the training. Dalinar is an Unchaned Bondsmith who knows nothing of his powers. He's just flipping switches and learning as he goes, and that's all of them. As for Fused being a threat, it really depends, I guess. It depends on how many Radiants ever really got Plate. Currently, there's only 2. It seems like they are these bastions of power and authority...and maybe they are. Maybe that's why the humans literally never lost a desolation in thousands of years. But there are still only two at the moment. But again, that's not what these stories are about. Not really. And...many of those Radiants belong to those other Kingdoms...And would be loyal to the Kingdom rather than Urutheru if they did not have a union of some kind. Sure, 1 Radiant is worth a thousand Fused, but if every Kingdom decides to take their Radiants and do things their own way, then you don't have one unified Radiant army, you have a whole bunch of seperate armies, all of which only have a few Radiants. Divide and Conquer. But he won't. I'll never understand the use of irellivant arguments. "Just ask the Nightwatcher to give it to you." The Nightwatcher is an insane Spren who does NOT give you what you asked for, but what SHE thinks you should have, and a curse to go along with it, which in every case but one made the individual regret going to the Nightwatcher. "Ask the Nightwacher for it" is never a valid argument for anything. "The Stormfather can just make new honorspren" is not a valid argument, because he won't do it. Period. Ever. Regardless of whether or not he's going to die. He's too proud, too stuborn, and too scared. Now, other Honorspren could, and have, done it, but the Stormfather never will. Yeah. Ok. Tell that to Syl. Who literally went to sleep for a thousand years to hide from the fact that her Knight had died. They are most certainly hurt. It isn't deadly, but it still hurts. It causes them pain. You can't bond your soul, your very essence, to someone, feel them die, and just go on like "Oh well. I guess I gotta pick the next schmuk in line."

It's interesting that we're talking about maximum human speed when refering to what Pewter can accomplish, since 99.999% of the population won't be able to go that fast. The average human athelete can sprint at roughlly 18 miles per hour. But that's the average human ATHELETE. That's means someone who has TRAINED to sprint, and to only sprint, for a long, long time. The average male RUNNING speed is onlly 8 miles per hour. 6.5 miles per hour for females! No where, ever, did Vin ever once in the books mention sprint training. She was an urchin who was lucky to have enough food. When she ran, it was to find a hiding spot, not to practice sprinting and build up her speed. She would have been malnurished most of her life. And yeah, by the time she was pewter dragging like this, she was a fully trained Mistborn, but Sprinting is not something Mistborn train to do. Their training is flying through the air. Very little running involved. They let the Pewter take care of the running. This wasn't a top world athelete running at the speed of a galopping horse for twenty hours straight. This was a tiny girl who was barely out of being an Urchin with little to no cardio training running at the speed of a galloping horse for twenty hours straight. THAT is what Pewter does. In fact, I wouldn't even put her average non pewter running speed at 6 miles per hour. That's a 10 minute mile. That's amazing. Lots of people can't break that, and I'll never believe Vin would have been one of them. But when she has Pewter, she's as fast as a galopping horse for days at a time. Even if a galopping horse is only 30 miles per hour on Scadrial, and there's nothing in the books to suggest that's the case, that's still five times faster than someone who can't break a 10 minute mile. I get sprint speed isn't the same as normal running speed, but sprinting is HARD. The fastest people in the world can only do it for a few seconds. Thugs can do it forever. That's insane. So yeah, I'd say their speed is doubled. Everything about them is at least doubled. It would be nice if we could get some straight numbers, though. I wanna see Ham record the weights he can life with and without Pewter, and both flaring and not flaring. I feel like Sigsel. I want numbers!

It could also be that TLR wasn't using his pewterminds in that way. Or he had a seperate pewtermind meant to give him a great physique. I mean, if I was a Pewter Compounder, that's what I would do. Vanity is a thing. I'd have one metalmind filled with years worth of just strength, and another filled with years worth of muscle mass that I tapped just lightly at all times to make my body the perfect physique at all times. Though this does support my theory that his bands weren't just atium, but all the metals and made up all, or most, of his main metalminds, which is why he couldn't just speed over and grab them after they were ripped from him.

I guess I did forget that part, but...that doesn't actually make sense, does it? What, exactly, are you stealing from the original person? So, a normal hemalurgic spike steals something from someone by killing them and then gives it to someone else. Strength. Mental Accuity. Specific powers. Whatever. But an Aluminum spike doesn't do that. It just removes all your powers. There's nothing to steal. So, no, I think I'm going to stick with my original thought. I don't think Aluminum needs a charge. It's thing is blocking Investiture. I think you can stab someone with Aluminum in the right way with the right intent, leaving it in the person, and it won't kill them. It'll just remove all their abilities. Permanent Investiture Blanking.

I was thinking about this. For perpendicularities, I think a Nicrosil Compounder could do it. They store Investiture, right? And that's something that can be compounded. So, compound it, and you essentially create a metal object that pierces the realms. A Rod of Realmatic Transmition, so to speak. As for teleporting, that's a little different. But...If you can manipulate speed and time, then you can do some strange things.

Yeah, as potent as I believe Compounding to be, I don't believe he had enough on him to make a difference at this point. Compounding takes at least some time, and it takes at least a good bit of your metal to do. And I'm not even sure if Miles had enough gold ever stored up to survive what is essentially a thermonuclear explosion at its epicenter.