marianmi

How about: "KAL, I AM YOUR FATHER"? Hmmm... this one's been done before too...

I agree. We should be looking at "physical", "cognitive" and "spiritual" not "internal" and "external".

Maybe the stormlight just strengthens whatever material the plate is made from. So is not the stormlight, but stormlight + material. Else, why have plates? Since only surgebinders were supposed to wear them, and they would be protected when infusing?

I think Szeth was a proeminent researcher/philosopher in Shinovar, up to the point where he discovered something or came up with some ideas/theories that were contrary to everyone else (like Galileo with the round Earth theory), for which he was punished.

Here's a thread: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/5613-the-kr-orders-table-and-bonding-spren/

There are many clues that there were highstorms before Honor's splintering. What I believe is that during a highstorm there is a rift between realms (spiritual and physical), and the spiritual energy leaks and is being captured in gemhearts. Maybe because gemhearts themselves are not of the physical, but are formed again in a rift between realms.

To add a few more thoughts ... I don't think for example just by being a honorable person one attracts a honorspren - I think one important requirement is the broken soul - broken because of the conflict of that attribute. E.g. you need to be in a situation that truly tests your attribute. Just being "nice" won't cut it.

I actually take it from these quotes that Jezrien was the guy... He's not trimming it anymore, he doesn't care, so now is grey and black, and long... Also, being drunk is the worst thing you can do instead of protecting/leading. Look at Dalinar...

Just a few things from the Shallan chapter: * she has blood on her face * (in my understanding) there was a man and a woman dead... the man was bloody, the woman was not (shardblade?). Then Shallan's mom is referenced, dead by shardblade... so the woman in white could have been her mom. Since she has blood on her face, Shallan must've killed the man. Maybe he was trying to kill her parents, but he could not kill her, being a child and all - so she did kill him? Then her father pick up the blade, and carried it until Shallan killed him.

Assume that human with honorblade = surgebinder in terms of power (e.g. Szeth and Kaladin). * You can have a limited number of people with honorblade; there is nothing special about them - just people with a powerful sword that grants them powerful abilities. * Surgebinders are worse, because it means that spren bonding has started, and where is now 1 can be tomorrow hundreds. I guess for the Parshendi, fighting a human with honorblade is not that far from fighting one with shards - can be killed using current warform... blade taken. Fighting surgebinders is different - is like humans found a new "form". Parshendi must match with their own powerful form. Darkness was also not sure what order Lift belonged to, so of course he had to be careful, not knowing how much she knows to do, or what exactly she can do...

In no particular order... * Confirmation Szeth's blade is Jezrien's honorblade. But how? My favourite 2 theories: 1) Jezrien went back for his blade, re-connected to Honor, and when Tanavast died he went into coma (and is now drooling)... Stone shamans take care of him, Szeth was one of them/or with them. 2) Darkeness went back for his Honorblade * Kaladin had 2 chapter icons: spear with black flag for "now", spear with white flag for "flashback". We now saw Shallan's "flashback" chapter icon. Is it Pattern? * Listeners? Killing Gavilar stopped his plan? I thought it failed... * OMG stormform * Adolin is cool. Renarin has complete set. Hmmm.... what will he do with it? * Hello, Amaram... What did you just said about those shards? * Shen is most definitely a Parshendi spy. There must be others, too... in every Highlord's camp... But maybe Shen will end up working with Bridge 4... * Yeah Sigzil is def a lurker here * The listerners have "Gods", plural. And since "they" have to do with the powerful forms, chasmfiends are not included. So it must be the 3 shards... or at least 2 of them.

@Maresia - these truths in exchange of power are when bonding with men. Spren haven't bonded men in thousands of years. So, fearful reputation among spren has to do with something else...

Yes, I think that we can categorise the spren, and hence the order, based on the shard, and the surges as phy/cog/spiritual. I did not know about that WoB, then, as many said, maybe left side is cognitive, right side is spiritual and up+down is physical? This means: - unknown, transportation, transformation = cognitive - gravity, division, friction = spiritual - surface tension, atm pressure, illumination, growth = physical atm pressure seems physical, but then there is growth ... if the group is physical then growth = fast healing; but if growth can heal shardblade cuts then growth would be cognitive... about horizontal groups... duladen: I don't think there are that many pure spren...i would rather be inclined to believe, like others, that there is only one pure spren (so pure honorspren would be just #10, and that would be bondsmith ... this would kind of make sense). But then, it does not make sense in the chart to have horizontal lines of mixed spren, then pure spren, then mixed spren, mixed spren, pure spren, mixed spren... makes more sense to have the longest vertical line between pure honorspren and pure cultivationspren. I really think we are very very close to the truth here

We know how to interpret the table. But we are missing some details. There have been many theories, how some orders are BFFs, how the ordering is done based on the spren type. WoB is that the spren are mixed Cultivation and Honor, there are Adonalsium spren as well. Do they bond, are they on the radiant table? Both the allomantic table and the feruchemical table are nicely laid out. So it make sense the surgebinding table is as well. We just have to make sense of it. So here's my latest theory (with the help of the others put out there) laid out. * There are spren on Roshar - adonalsium spren, odium spren, honorspren, cultivationspren. WoB is that there are also mixed Honor-Cultivation spren as well. It would make sense that we only have H+C mixed spren, given the romantic involvement of Tanavast and (Cultivation). * Spren can bond with intelligent races in the physical realm. Humans, Parshendi, Aimians. * Spren can bond with non or less-intelligent creatures in the physical realm. The big animals (Reshi Islands, Santhid, Chasmfiends, etc. * Only certain spren can bond with certain creatures. E.g. only H, C, H+C spren can bond with humans. * The Heralds were bonded to Honor a long time ago to fight the voidbringers. The bond was known as the Oathpact. When the Heralds broke the Oathpact, they severed their bond with Honor. * It might be possible that the embodiment of the bond was the Honorblade. * We don't know if anyone was bonded to Cultivation. * Spren are a pretty independent bunch, with their own organization. They used to bond freely with humans, based on some attributes shown by the human => surgebinders. Each spren is attracted to "subintents" of it's creating shard. These "subintents" are known as "Divine Attributes" - protecting, leading, pious, learning, etc... * Spren were able to replicate the Oathpact - making an oath to act in accordance to different facets of those Divine Attributes would make the bond (and the surgebinder) more powerful. *** sidenote *** It is possible the Oathpact contained more than one oath. It is also possible the Heralds did not broke all oaths from the Oathpact in abandoning their Honorblades. This could explain why they are still alive. They have been basically reduced in level. And now my (latest) interpretation of the table: * The orders in the corners are using spren that are not mixed. * The orders in the upper part of the chart are using spren created from Honor. * The orders in the bottom part of the chart are using spren created from Cultivation. There are 4 horizontal groups. Group 1: 9, 1 - honorspren Group 2: 8, 10, 2 - honorcultivationspren Group 3: 7, 5, 3 - cultivationhonorspren Group 4: 6, 4 - cultivationspren * There are 3 vertical groups: Group 1 = left side: 6, 7, 8, 9 Group 2 = center: 5, 10 Group 3 = right side: 1, 2, 3, 4 * Group 1 deals with cognitive matters * Group 2 deals with spiritual matters * Group 3 deals with physical matters Thoughts on this interpretation?

You mean something like this? http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/5197-jezrien-shards-and-the-identity-of-the-broken-one/?view=findpost&p=88678

In my defense, you clearly see that Kalladin and Shallan are facing the other way

But that would mean that e.g. Cusicesh is also not adonalsium spren (another popular theory) - so who is? - the only spren that we've not seen would be i guess the gemhearts spren (reshi islands, chasmfiends). Just like everything that is not WoB is a theory. And even that changes, as we've seen. Putting up 2 theories together to come up with a third might be a flimsy structure, but, in absolute terms - given how Brandon may turn things around - even theories that might seem very strong can be easily proven false (thinking back everyone can just say - aaahhh, how come i did not see that coming!). I don't think you can classify theories in grained categories, but very loose ones - "likely", "unlikely", "very unlikely". I myself think it "unlikely" - but not impossible, and that is reason enough to put it up here

In his last vision, the Almighty told Dalinar that spren attempted to mimic what he has done with the Heralds and thus the KR were born. When Jasnah reads the vision transcripts, she should figure out that the Almighty was not powerful a spren (as she currently believes), but something else.

Yes, I also made the connection and posted the other day about that:

Shalladin! Or in this case.. Kallan?

Things could be more complicated ... Like honorspren (windrunners - 1) <-> liespren (lightweavers - 6) and cultivationspren (edgedancer - 4) <-> destruction?spren (stonewardens - 9).

Cmon guys, a few punks won't be able to kill Jasnah of the Elsecallers.

* Taln is no longer a Herald of the Almighty since there is no more Almighty. So his heralding days are over. * From the Purelake vision, we know spren have tried to emulate Honor in making the bonds. This strongly suggests that Heralds were bounded to Honor. Not (having) Splinters of Honor, but being bounded to the Shard somehow. The "somehow" should involve the Honorblades, since leaving them was the act of abandoning the Oathpact. * Given the above, I wonder what was the effect of shattering Honor had on the heralds. Was this the reason they are not broken/twisted? Is this why Jezrien is now "drooling" - because the had a stronger connection to Honor (being the leader of the heralds) and thus lost more of himself then the shard got broken? Or maybe because Jezrien was, in fact, the one who went back for his blade, restored his connection to Honor, then the splintering occured and Jezrien's mind was splintered as well? * I'm pretty sure the guy in Dalinar's visions is Tanavast, and not some Odium impersonation. And given that he tells Dalinar to make the KR, and says nothing about the Heralds leads me to believe the heralds becoming Heralds again is as probable as Honor being put back together.

My thoughts exactly. Assumption: Heralds have a Nahel bond to the Shard Honor (from the Purelike vision, where Tanavast says he was surprised when spren wanted to emulate what he did with the Heralds and so the KR were born). New theory: * Heralds abandon the Oathpact. They tell everyone that was the Last Desolation. Honor is not splintered. * KR do their KR stuff, even though there are no more Desolations coming. * Jezrien goes back for his Honorblade. Then he goes to the KR and tells them the truth. The KR get upset and severe their bonds. * Honor is shattered. Jezrien is the only Herald with a "live" connection to Honor. His mind gets broken when the Splintering occurs. * The Shin take care of Jezrien, which is now drooling, his mind lost. They have his Blade. It ends up at Szeth. EDIT: The Shin knew/know the truth from Jezrien. Being truthless has something to do with Jezrien, and the Last Desolation not being the Last Desolation, the Voidbringers not being permanently defeated, something along this lines.

Yes. But what's to say Odium (or the other 3rd shard) "existed on Roshar"? Did Odium exist on Sel? Who was ruling on Roshar if/when Odium existed on Sel? Still 3 of the 16? This "3 shards ever existed on Roshar" can be interpreted in different ways. Maybe 3 shards existed all the time - one left, another came ... still 3 existed. EDIT: also, my main point was that The Broken One is Adonalsium, and the quote was referring to Cryptics, spren of Adonalsium, being the current rulers of Shadesmar.