Could Be Fire

IKR?!? I started a separate thread to talk about the whole thing there since it's technically book 5 spoilers which should be quarantined.

This is such a good point! If I had to guess, I think something related to idea one makes the most sense to me? It could explain the six-year gap in between her death --> Taln's release, when we know the heralds were down to lasting <2 years. I thought maybe she was working with the voidspren and not being tortured to explain the gap but it could also that she had worked a plan with Lin to prevent her soul from making it to Braize, so she only actually made it to the torture right before breaking. It fits with the timeline of Lin's death (after which the Davar kids accidentally open the safe?) which brings it down to a more reasonable couple months of time before Taln appears. Idea 2 sounds kind of crazy to me, but I also thought your original idea was crazy? Honestly, I think it's possible. It would explain which of the Unmade was there, and what Chana was up to for so long? The only issue I have is that I thought Kalak gave Shallan and Adolin all the info he had on where BAM was put, and I think it would have come up if it seemed like Chana/Shallan's mother was involved in any way. I'm not sure about 3. I think Szeth makes it clear that the Shin had eight of the Honorblades (he mentions ice-skating training for Abrasion too). Szeth becomes Truthless 2 years before the Prologue I think (assuming the wiki is correct about dates/ages) so it does fit the timeline, but we know the Honorblades aren't supposed to appear upon the heralds being sent to Braize so I think it's unlikely. Another idea is a Seon bonded to Chana? They seem to be popping up a lot.

I think at this point, we've all heard the "Shallan's mother was Chanarach theory". If you hadn't the main points of evidence gathered up through RoW were: Appearances. Most notably, the physical similarities between the released images of Chana and Shallan are also pretty obvious. Process of elimination. Sanderson has said that most (possibly all) of the modern heralds were mentioned on page in WoK, and we've found most of them. Kalak, Shallash, Jezerin, and Nale are obvious. Battar is Dova, and Paliah was confirmed as the ardent in the Palanaeum. I am fairly convinced Lyss is Vedel. Chana has no other good candidates. The Davar household is full of more secrets than Kelsier. Sh*t was clearly going down there, with everyone from Hoid to the Unmade to the Knights of Honor getting involved. Personality. Chana should be acting as an inversion of brave/obedient, which Shallan's mother fits with. The might also be something to the mental troubles of Shallan and her siblings also (WoB) having some magical elements, almost like the herald's insanity. It might just be the UnMade, but it might not be... Overall, I thought it was an interesting theory, but more on the tinfoil-side. However, I think the just released Stromlight 5 Prologue reveals some info that blew my mind, and I starting to get on board. First, and more simply, we get on page confirmation that Chana does have bright real hair (previous evidence was "in-universe" and could have been inaccurate). This really reinforces Chana's red hair, and draws an obvious connection to some of the only other (non-horneater) gingers, the Davars. Chana being a redhead is also important enough to emphasize as canon, so unless it's a red (lol) herring, it should be relevant. Before I go into the second, I want to shout out this theory (@teknopathetic), since the reveals are basically supporting evidence for the main idea laid out here. TLDR: Chana is Shallan's mother, Shallan killed Chana and sent her back to Braize. Channa later breaks and releases the Oathpact/Taln. So we get this in released Prologue: So, one of the heralds dies the same day as Gavilar and the Stormfather (somehow?) covers it up. The phrasing, particularly the commentary "The Oathpact" suggests to me that this was 'return-to-Braize' died, and not perma-killed a la Jezerin by Moash. All this explains how/why Taln came back to Roshar after the Battle of the Tower. One of the Heralds returned to Braize, and then held out ~6 years until they broke, which released them and Taln back to Roshar. What's even more interesting is that Gavilar and the mystery Hearld die in 1167. The year Shallan kills her mother? 1167.

Thanks! My guess is that it was always meant to be ten people in the end, because of 20 surges, it just took time to get there. My theory also requires that they had to be picked in a specific order, but like I said there seems to be some innate organization to the surges so that's not too out there. In particular, I would guess maybe the honor blades had to be created in a specific order, and then it took time to find the perfect candidate for each of them. The Heralds also seemed to be specifically chosen to make the perfect team protect/maintain/rebuild a society, so that was probably also a part of the selection process that made it harder to find ideal candidates. So Oathpact was built up over time like links in a chain. I mean, I theorize mostly just to try to put together puzzle pieces to see if I can predict where the narrative is going for fun? It's hard to gauge the implications because so much info on the Heralds and the Oathpact is deliberately vague. From a world-building perspective, since fixing the Oathpact is an upcoming major plot point, exactly how it works is likely to be relevant. The largest consequences would be the early interpersonal lives of the Heralds and the overall events of the First Desolation which we know basically nothing about at this point. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That's a good point! There's some evidence supporting an idea like that as well. Heralds seem to physically match their divine attributes/roles suspiciously well. Navani and Adolin separately describe Kalak as looking distinctly like a steward/palace administrator which fits well with a possible role for the Willshaper herald and is an oddly specific comment on someone’s appearance (unless maybe it's foreshadowing that Kalak was hiding out as a Kholin palace steward years ago lol). There's Shallash’s stunning beauty as the herald of beauty, the emphasis on Jezerin’s regal bearing as the Herald of Kings, Taln’s perfect warrior build. There could even be something to Nale even looking Azish, which in Roshar is stereotyped as being rules obsessed. The ages are also just weird in general. Navani can't figure out if Kalak is 20s or 40s, and prologue Jezerin is described as 30s with black hair but he is later described as having hair streaked with grey and generally looking older as a beggar, even though he should still be the 'age he was when he became a herald'. So their appearance can change over time (but that might be more broken oathpact nonsense)... It would also explain the heights. No one mentions the heralds being notably short, (Taln and Nale are even called tall by Alethi characters), even though native-born Ashlynite should be way shorter than modern-day Rosharans. Though I don't think their appearances are completely off of their original? Stuff like Nale's birthmark, Kalak's thinning hair, and the apparently maintained ethnicities makes me think it's relatively subtle changes if it is happening, definitely the heights possibly some small additional changes (Ash being more beautiful, Taln being super strong, Jezerin looking in his prime, etc.)

Also, Sibling was explicitly going to bond Rlain. Navani was an 'otherwise we'll both die' choice.

Good point! That slipped my mind, for some reason I remembered Venli connecting with her but forgot the spren entering her gemheart (－‸ლ). I guess Yanagwan is best wild-card pick then, or possibly still another Singer from Venli/Leshwi's group.

Exactly, and we actually know that at least Divine-breath related shapeshifting should be enough. Normal Court of God returned are like relatively 7+ feet tall, right? But no one calls out any of the Five Scholars (Vashar/Denth/Arsteel) that we see as being that tall in Warbreaker. I think Vashar is said to be taller than average but not Returned-God tall. So if they can go from 7+ feet to 6-ish the reverse should be possible.

I really like this! It would synergize well with both the missing old Cyontics and Spensa being stuck in Nowhere. Like maybe we'll see her start to see the initially parts of the transformation.

Something about the physical appearance of the heralds seems off to me, particularly the ages of Ash and Jezrein. Sanderson was askedabout it and he was very evasive about the timeline of the Oathpact and particularly how it related to the ages of the heralds. The only hard comments we have about the timeline is that 1) The Heralds appear the age they were when they became heralds, 2) At least some time passed between escape from Ashlyn and the Oathpact (They left when they were "younger than they were when they became Heralds"), and 3) Shalash is the youngest herald was born right around the time of the escape, possibly right after. The first point is a bit of an issue because Jezrein canonically looks to be in his late 30s. Shalash doesn’t have a canon age description due to the absence of comments on her being a teenager, so probably early twenties at the youngest. This is a bit of an issue because is Jezerin in Ash's father. The simplest explanations - Ash is Jezrin’s biological daughter and he was a teen dad, but Jezerin as a father that young doesn't really make sense to me with his character - Ash is adopted. She’s more ‘western’ looking while Jezrerin is described as more ‘eastern’ looking by Rosharan standards. If so she could be around 10-15 years younger than him which fits the appearances better than the biological limitations. Whatever caused Ashlyn to be destroyed likely created orphans, and adoption is a totally Windrunner thing However, this discrepancy also led me to a fairly tinfoil theory, but one I think there is mounting evidence for. That the Oathpact was founded over many years, and not all of the heralds were created at the same time. Specifically, they joined up in their numerical order. In general, the consistent ordering of the heralds has its roots somewhere, and the surge binding diagram, with its extra connections, implies that there is an innate organization to the Rosharan surges. I also think it's likely that the heralds were specifically selected individually as the best candidate to wield a pair of surges, not that the most awesome-est ten people were chosen and then assigned surges. It's not too much of a stretch to perhaps people had to be added to the Oathpact (or the Honorblades had to be created) in some specific order. This actually works well with the scant evidence we do have about the Herald's early history and synergizes well with some of the numerology and mythology we have about them. Jezerin was the first, which makes sense as the leader. Ishar is technically 10th/last, but since the heralds are portrayed on a circle, Ishar could have initially first (and Jezerin 2nd) which got the perception got shifted over time since Jezerin was seen as the leader. Or Ishar could have been the last officially made a herald (last Honorblade made maybe?) and was using his non-Herald Ashlynite bondsmith powers initially. We see in Nale’s flashback that he is approached by Jezerin who says that “Ishar and I agreed. There is no person we would welcome more eagerly into this pact than you.” To me the grammar implies to 'we' welcoming him into the pact is 'Ishar and Jezerin' which places Nale as the next (2nd) before others were selected. Also the 'welcome into this pact' could be interpreted as the pact already existing, with people added to it over time. Shallash as #6 is much later than Jezerin. This allows time for her to grow into an adult while Jezerin is frozen at the 30s/40s he became a herald in. Taln was supposed to be Herald, and hadn't distinguished himself before being chosen like the others. As 9th, the last except for Ishar, Odium could have time to catch on and eliminate the initial choice, or do something to threaten the plan and force Ishar to make a snap decision (maybe Taln was just the best candidate in the right place/right time). Any other ideas or interpretations? I think the adoption explanation is the simplest to clear up the Ash/Jezerin age discrepancy but I do there's something to the numerology.

I like this...Rock's arc does seem to lead to him taking power in his own community, and he certainly has the personality for it acting as the heart of Bridge 4. Honestly, I'm hoping it will be more of an outside character than him or Lirin though. Currently, the Bondsmith power is insanely concentrated in the Kholins, and I would like to see someone who can, not oppose them necessarily, but provide more balance. Navani and Dalinar are good people, but they still have major faults and their history as the paragon of Alethi supremacy can't be ignored. From a narrative perspective, since Navani and Dalinar are so connected I'd expect the last Bondsmith to be an outsider. I think there are some really interesting wild card candidates, especially considering we may not see the Nighwatcher bond until the back half. I looked for minor characters, but ones who have had enough presence or hints of an arc that it wouldn't be odd to see them come to greater prominence. Also ones with either leadership potential or placed into a leadership role, since that seems to be a foundation of Bondsmith-ness. Finally, I tried to see who seemed to be 'Cultivation-y' for lack of a better word, with an arc focused on growth and change. The best wild card candidates in rough order of likelihood imo: Jaxlim (Venli's mother) --> Had a leadership role in her community but has deteriorated and has a major need for growth. I think the Listerner's fit well in Cultivation's vibe in general, Jaxlim is just the most obvious candidate since the other named character's in Venli and Leshwi's group have a likely order (Willshaper/Windrunner). Also, more Singers with Nahal bonds seems to be the direction we're heading and what more obvious way to herald the formation of a new Roshar than with a Singer Bondsmith. Yanagawn/Gawx (Lift's friend the leader of Azir) --> So far arc is already about learning to be a good leader. Young, but should be an ideal age after timeskip. In the sweet spot of character relevance. Already had some impactful conversations about leadership/power. Redin (the heterochromatic Veden dude) --> Even more of a background character, but has shown up twice in noticeable ways with no real payoff yet and has a 'major character' sort of backstory. Had a claim to the Veden throne at one point and a personal hatred of Taravangian. Could fit in the narrative space for a leader of the anti-Odium/anti-Taravangian Veden's who have been pushed out of power. Can also see him becoming more prominent initially as part of the reveals about what the hell was going on in the Davar household. Savrahalidem (Taravangians daughter, Karbaranth's Queen). Has leadership position. Only just mentioned by name, but the drama of Odium's daughter would be interesting. Cultivation also seems to be very personality invested in the Nighwatcher, and I can see her hand-picking Savri to bond with them as part of the larger plot to manipulate Tar-Odium's actions. Dieno enne Calah/The Mink (the Herdazian general) --> Major minor character in a leadership position. Has a quirky vibe that reads as sort of 'cultivation-y' to me. Herdazian's in general seem to vibe well with the Cultivation, similar to the Listeners. This far down because he doesn't have the 'potential for growth' vibes as much, and is already a central part of Dalinar and Navani's hierarchy (and is specifically Dalinar's subordinate) which I wanted to avoid. Some Shin character we'll meet in Book 5 --> Shinovar is a black hole right now but clearly will become more important. Also, Szeth is unlikely to be the only person to doubt the Shamanate, and there is potential for an interesting narrative foil if you have Shin Bondsmith learning how to be a military leader vs Dalinar (Alethi Warlord) learning how to promote peace.

I agree with you. I have gotten the vibe that the original plan may have been for the heralds to be the jailers on Braize. So they planned to give up their lives on Roshar to live eternity on Braize, locking away Fused with them. This is still a massive sacrifice, but I'm not convinced the Heralds/Honor planned for the torture/desolations. If you look at the Oathpact there's two major factors that seem to allow for the fused returns: 1) Nothing was preventing the Heralds from leaving. By definition, the oathpact binds Odium forces, but the only thing keeping the Heralds on Braize is their will to be there. 2) The fused were suck on Braize, but the heralds were stuck with them and nothing was stopping Odium's forces from overpowering the heralds and reversing the guard/prisoner dynamic.

It's WOB that we can "blame some of how Nale is acting more on the Highspren" and that his Highspren is "wacky". It is possible that they were originally reasonable and the stress of a nahel bond with Nale corrupted them but I think it's more likely that Nale choose/was chosen by an extremist Highspren who already agreed with his 'letter of the law above all' and pro-proto-radiant murder brand of crazy. Direct Unmade interference is a good point! We know Moelach was in Kharbranth with Battar and Nergaoul was based in Alethkar while Jezerin was in Kholinar for a while. Maybe some of the Unmade were directly haunting the heralds? It's not like they had much else to do due in the millennia after BAM/Singers was bound.

Heralds Madness The Heralds are insane, and that seems to a plot point of increasing significance with Kaladin’s focus on mental health in RoW, Ishar’s plan being dangled as a plot thread for the upcoming KoW. However, a lot of unclear with the herald's madness. I don’t think it’s been confirmed but it’s collectively accepted that a major part of the problem is a ‘magical’ inversion of their divine attributes/purpose. However, what’s causing this isn’t clear. There are so many factors at play that could be screwing with the Heralds heads: Normal PTSD from millennia of torture + war Immortality related Cognitive shadow decay (brain trying to handle millennia of memories) Spiritweb impact of 'breaking' during the oathpact Spiritweb impact of actually abandoning the oathpact BAM being bound Honor's death/shattering Guilt over abandoning one of their closest companions to be tortured alone ??? (Nale specific, but bonding to a Highspren is making him worse) The heralds seem to think that this is purely a result (1) PTSD. Kalak says that they shouldn't be 'getting worse' anymore. Nale tells Szeth at Thaylen Field his loss of compassion is directly torture-related Ash told Adolin that "thousands of years of torture" is what made the heralds insane. Ishar seems only to make the ideal = lucidity connection when Navani swears her ideal. Ishar also says he needs to be sane to fix the oathpact, not that fixing the oathpact will make him sane. I don’t think it’s actually on the herald's radar that they have a 'magical' problem. The source of the magical insanity can't just be the impact of abandoning the oathpact or breaking since Taln seems to still have the 'inverted attribute (resolute/dependable - comatose and cowardice) and he never participated in either of those two things. The cognitive shadow memory problems are definitely an issue but it doesn’t make sense as a root of the herald's ironic madness. I think it's something later, probably BAM being bound and/or Honor's death, that is causing the 'curse'. Heralds are closer to Nahal spren than humanity at this point, per Kalak, and also directly connected to Honor (like the Sibling). What happened to the Sibling and all the spren was drastic and completely uwpredicted. Heralds getting uniquely broken (on top of trauma + memory problems) fits with the other effects we've seen. Furthermore, while, the heralds do seem insane even in the original prologue (Kalak's anxiety, he sees cowardice in Jezerin’s eyes) but it’s nowhere near what we see in modern Roshar. Jezerin is leagues more put together, and while anxiety does seem to be part of Kalak’s madness, but I would argue that his magical anxiety seems to be specifically social anxiety (he’s at his most fearful surrounded by crowds at Gavliar’s party and the Trial) as an inversion of the social organizer role willshapers seems to have had. What we saw in the prologue than the completely reasonable fear of torture driven by PTSD. Finally, on a meta level, this would also help tie two of the major plot threads (Dalinar’s plan to fix the Heralds and Adolin/Shallan’s quest to release BAM) in KoW.

That's an interesting point. Navani's oath empowering Ishar implies that it's a widespread thing, but Ishar does explicitly say that the ideal must be "spoken near [him]". Maybe he has a very lose interpretation of near? Tashikk/Emul are close the Urithiru on the scale of Roshar as a whole. The only other herald we have a viewpoint on when we know an oath is sworn is Nale, watching Szeth from the sky at Thalen Fields. He does seem less crazy to me in the conversation he has with Szeth right after? But he seems to have a moment of 'lucidity' to me before the battle even starts when he prevents Szeth from swearing directly to him. I like this. It matches up with the timeline.

I'm not sure... Szeth's highspren directly tells him he will need to "become the law" to reach the fifth ideal, so that's definitely the ideal. Now whether this directly means the Judge Dread sort of crazy it implies or of there is some more nuance there is up for debate. I think in general that 'becoming the law' could work with the tiny bit we've seen of the original Skybreaker philosophy. From Dalinar's visions (RoW Chpt 47) of sane!Nale. I think becoming the law is supposed to be like becoming a judge (and not Judge Dread lol more like King Solomon). The Skybreaker has shown that they can follow and understand a code, and are have proven themselves capable of interpreting that code. Sort of like the idea of living documents in the real world, the Skybreaker is a living example of the law that has structure but also has the flexibility to dole out true justice. The law cannot be moral but a Skybreaker can be.

I think the key point here is the last two points. Do we know that the Recreance happens before Honor dies? Since you showed that Sibling clearly ends bond after the BAM is imprisoned then if it was just the binding that caused deadeyes, wouldn't they have become one? Unless you think that's because the Sibling is a unique spren, but the comments at Adolin's Trial suggest that even Stormfather/Sibling are as vulnerable to what happened. It seems to me that we're missing something, and to me, the simplest answer is that it was Honor dying on top of BAM being bound that combined to create the situation were breaking a bond creates deadeyes instead of just temporarily injuring the spren.

Elantris semi-spoilers

Okay but this is actually really good... They both love Shardplate/fighting, but not violence. Have been the 'golden child' and the easily charismatic older sibling to an underestimated younger one. Curious about other cultures and new experiences, and open-minded in general. The internal conflict of being 'forced' into a leadership role that they both do and don't want. Strong internal sense of justice and desire to protect those they care about.

This makes the timeline super interesting though because if binding BAM causes the sibling to lose power which causes them to break their bond with Melishi then it wasn't just BAM's binding that caused every bond broken after it to form deadeyes, there must have been some other factor (maybe Honor's death?). Of course, the alternative explanation is a timeline like: Honor's death --/-- Melsihi Decides to Imprison BAM --> Sibling gets Mad and Breaks Bond --> BAM Bound --> Deadeyes So it is just BAM-binding that causes Deadeyes and the sibling was 'lucky' enough to break their bond early because of extenuating factors (Melsihi's crazy plan and/or Honor's death). But I would think if Honor died first, the Honorspren would comment on it and assume that's why the Sibling rejected Melshi and it wouldn't be a "matter of dispute".

There is a recognized issue (more talked about in film-writing) with the 'default male' idea. Where for most people when they think of a 'default human' without putting any thought, they'll think of a straight, white, cis male. So we end up with those types of characters disproportionality represented in fiction because if there's no "reason" to make a character something else that's what they end up as. It's important to think about if there's actually a reason for a character to be male/straight/white/etc. or if an author is just defaulting. Brandon talked pretty clearly about he's fallen into that trap before with his comments on the Mistborn screenplay. Basically, he focused so hard are writing Vin well that he defaulted on the gender of all the rest of the cast and ended up with a basically entirely male supporting cast (Shan is essentially the only other female character of any note in the first book and we only get 1-2 more with the rest).

Thanks!! You make a great point as well. I like the Deadeye/Shin Warrior symmetry for narrative sake, didn't even about symmetry on Roshar. Awesome catch. This is my favorite of my cosmere theorizing, because I have to wait the least amount of time to see if I'm right (2023 baby!) and it's the one I think has the best chance of being true. I mean, I was able to pick up that Elhokar was a proto-lightweaver so who knows. Two other points that didn't make it into my original posts: 1) Especially with the Adolin/Maya plotline in RoW I think the missing shard blades are more important than people think. It wouldn't just be a fun reveal for shock value or to explain a minor historical plot hole, but something that could have a major impact on the plot going forward. Adolin has shown that he's able to heal a deadeye, but his process relied on his relationship with her in the physical world as a sword. Right now that means Dalinar's coalition could only heal maybe 20 or so deadeyes at max, using the Adolin method. Finding the hundreds (thousands??) of missing blades would massively increase the practical impact of what he's discovered. 2) A reveal that the Shin have hundreds of shardblades just feels so...Sanderson to me for lack of a better world. His style makes heavy use of 'oh rust' revelations that are carefully foreshadowed (Shardblades are dead Spren, Parshendi are the Void-bringers, Humans are the original aliens, etc.). To me, this twist fits into his style. There's been extremely heavy setup for some major reveals with Szeth's flashbacks. I think that this could be one of them.

Thanks for the updated date! It's wild, right? Dalinar is further away in time from Nohadon than the Heralds are to Adolusium being alive. Honestly, that may be part of the reason Sanderson is keeping any and all info about the Herald's early lives/the formation of the Oathpact, etc. under such tight wraps. With RoW suddenly pulling the cosmere to the forefront, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot of revelations about humanity's past on Yolen and Ado's Shattering related to the Ashlynite's history.

That's a really good point. We see in ROW that Nale effortlessly cuts through Szeth (who in turn has easily defeated most others) in the one moment so far that he actually deigns to get on the battlefield, and that's without using the Divison surge. I'm with you that the Adolin comment doesn't apply, because the heralds aren't just shardbearer's but surgebinders. Jasnah at Thaylen Field is probably the closest we've gotten to a herald (unlimited Stormlight + higher oaths) but she has twenty years of experience as opposed to thousands. Heralds would have been unimaginable at their prime. I'll give this may be true. I def know that Kaladin is a distinctly powerful and talented Windrunner even compared to pre-recurrence knights and that current KR seems to be relying on Dalinar's ability to give unlimited stormlight to get through fights. However, I would say they are likely massively underrating their non-combat abilities at this point. It's been a bit of a theme in SA that weapons have more use than just fighting (Dalinar's latrine digging), many of the surges (Regrowth, Cohesion, Transportation, etc.) have massive implications outside of combat. During the desolations, with the heralds' guidance, KR probably were much better trained in how to apply their skills to fully support and build a society, not just fight fused. Like I have a pet theory that the Kholinar Windblades (and possibly Urithiru itself) were stone shaped in existance by either the Willshapers or Kalak. That's the sort of creative and powerful application of surges I imagine historical KR could have been doing.

These points match with my current tinfoil theory that Ashlynites + Singers at pre-desolation were high level cosmere aware and more 'modern' as compared to current Roshar. So Ash/Kalak and some of the ancient Fused speaking in a more 'modern' way as a clue to that. Between having and knowing how to use the Dawnshards and the fact that Ashlynites managed to transport a huge number of people to a new planet makes me think they might have been more advanced than anyone we've seen so far (excluding the far future in Sixth). The use of 'Ralkalest' makes me think that Roshar might even been in contact outside of their system, either directly getting the world through Selish trade or perhaps through inter-cosmere organizations like 17th Shard. If El has been doing the hemalurgy/metal thing prior to his current return, he likely got it from Scandriel (which would have been pre-Lord Ruler Scandriel timeline-wise, which is crazy). Ashlyn might have had a direct history with Yolen even, the end of the Desolations was only 6000yrs after the shattering, the heralds could have been born closer to Shattering than to modern-day Stormlight Archive.