Could Be Fire

@nehalem makes some key points I think. In particular, I think the fact that a majority of the fused are completely insane, taking a huge toll on their ability to fight effectively. We see Raboniel talk about how the Fused are stuck in their ways. Instead of the Heralds v. Fused battle that's repeated 10+ times over millennia, they're facing something entirely new to them. We've also seen very few of the Unmade in true action, and are explicitly missing the most powerful (BAM). I think it's also important to remember that the Singer is made up entirely of people that were almost non-sentient before the last year while humans have had 4500+ years of advancement. While previous, humanity, partially in the last few desolations, lost massive amounts of progress. Based on Taln's speech multiple times they were thrown back to pre-bronze age-level tech. Previous desolations were also close, with humanity being near destroyed, but humanity did win every time. What broke the heralds was all of the torture in the meantime, and the fact that they could never really win, just fight in a constant cycle. The Radients were fine until after As for why the Radients did keep everyone at Uthuriu... It requires abandoning to rest of the territory, which sort of defeats the whole purpose of the war. If the Humans were fine living in their little area (like Shinovar) the whole problem wouldn't exist. Also...humanity likely wasn't a completely unified force. I can see during the desolations that Heralds+Honor may have been able to unite most humanity but between desolations? I think it was a lot more like modern-day Roshar. Dalinar is a bondsmith and a nearly a shard vessel but he was unable to include Shinovar, Iri, Rira, or even some parts of the Azish Empire, Jah Kaved, and Alethkar in the coalition. Like we know humanity warred with themselves, as Nohadon says. Even the o.g. Ashlyn refugees weren't completely unified, as Dalinar's peer into Nale's past shows. Even the KR orders didn't always work together (the WoB on the role of the Skybreakers points to that) We also know a lot of human races on Roshar have some level of Singer ancestry (Alethi hair striping, Hezardian fingernails, Horneater teeth, etc.) so there had to have been a non-insignificant population of Singer and Humans living together at some point to produce those mixed kids. There are also all the other groups (the Aimians, Iriali if they immigrated separately from the Ashlynites, etc.) that don't fit neatly into the conflict. It was never as simple as all of Humanity vs. all of the Singers.

Exactly! I've think it's pretty important to have mostly non-white actors for Rosharans, like yes, they aren't real earth races, but you can always dye hair and will need to vfx eye color anyway it's harder to change eye shape/skin tone. Brandon's made it clear that they look closest MENA/AZPI etc. and that's how I've pictured them. For me, Race doesn't matter at all for Spren/Singers because of the VFX needed and it makes more sense for offworlders (Zahel, Azure, Felt, etc.) and canonically Shin(-looking) (Szeth, Ishar, etc.) to be white but otherwise, it doesn't really fit the canonical character descriptions. Main characters: Navani: Shohreh Aghdashloo (from The Expanse) has always been who I see, she has the right age, the perfect looks, and I think could carry the character well. Jasnah: I've actually pictured Lucy Liu, even though she's a decade too old. Maybe Elodie Young or Priyanka Chopra instead, for closer to the right age. Shallan: Hailee Steinfeld. I know at first glance she looks totally wrong, but hair dye exists, and Shallan is a ginger with epicanthic folds, you're not gonna get someone who looks like that IRL. She's the right age and can play both serious drama and annoying teenager (Edge of Seventeen is amazing) really well. She also does snarky really well. Adolin: Manny Jacinto. Right-ish age, super attractive and already plays a great human golden retriever in the Good Place. Do his hair something like this. Kaladin: Booboo Stewart has the right look for me, but I've only seen him in Twilight so I have no idea if he could actually work. Avan Jorgia too, but again, only seen him on Disney. Renarin: Ryan Potter. Right age, and has the sort of delicate look that works well for Ren. Szeth: Jake Gyllenhaal? He plays unhinged really well. Like everyone else, One Punch Man is who I picture lol. Anthony Carrigan plays a great bald crazy assassin in Gotham. Venli: I know it's a meme, but I actually like Scarlet Johansson for her. Voice quality is the most important for Singers, and I think she has a really distinct one that could work well. Taravangian: I know he's way too young but Giancarlo Esposito is just so so perfect as the careful, unexpected villain. For some random smaller roles. Saedas: Benedict Wong has the perfect facial structure and the acting chops for it. Palona: Salma Hayek (hot, right age, Hispanic, funny enough). with... Sebariel: Jemaine Clement (good mix of serious + comedy) Elhokar: Henry Golding (has the frat bro kinda look to me idk). Tien: Ian Chen (he's adorable in Fresh of the Boat). Sigzil: Alfred Enoch (nerdy but also could kick your ass) Adrotagia: Wai Ching Ho (plays a great villain) Amaran: Kumail Nanjiani. I think he could play conniving well. Handsome, but could be smarmy. Eshonai: Gwendoline Christie (powerful, but can play with some sensitivity, picturing her in Shardplate feels easy. Heralds. Super small roles now, but I think you need pretty big hitters because (A) I'm pretty sure they'll more important in the back half but also because (B) playing a 7000+ crazy divine figure is no easy. Ash: Lupita Nyong'o. She's ridiculously attractive, dark-skinned, and was awesome in the dual role in Us. Kalak: I actually would use Steven Yuen here. Minari showed his skill. I think he could pull off both the anxious wreck and the classic resolute builder. Nale: Idris Elba is a great call. Maybe Daniel Kaluuya for someone younger? Ishar: Anthony Hopkins. He was great as the crazy mastermind in Westworld and it's Anthony Hopkins, what more do you want. Spren. Harder for me to cast but it's all about feel and almost nothing about looks... Stormfather: Morgan Freeman. All about the voice and the gravitas. Syl: Emilia Clarke is a bit too old, but she has the sheer charisma I think Syl needs. Maybe Freya Allen? She's great in the Witcher and has an ethereal look. Pattern: Charlie Day, I will not explain this it just feels right. Or maybe Jason Mantzoukas lol. Def a comedy actor with a distinct voice.

Yeah...this is the weird part to me. There's a lot of conflicting info on voidbinding and whether Odium-aligned magic can grant access to all 10 surges or just 9. On one hand, it's clear that Adhesion is Honor's surge. No band of Fused has access to it, Raboniel's futzing with the Tower can't inhibit it, there's no Bondsmith (who's main focus is Adhesion) aligned Unmade. On the other hand, BAM really seems like she's related to Adhesion, Kriss says there are 10 levels of voidbinding and the voidbinding chart does have an inverted Adhesion glyph. This could just an example of Vorin editing of texts. Like how many of the Heralds have been renamed to have symmetrical names (like Nalan from Nale) or how they drew voidbringers as chasmfiends. 10 is a super important number, so it might be assumed to be more correct by in-universe historians. Or I guess it could be longer-term foreshadowing for a secret 10th Unmade show up in a future Sanderslanch. With ROW and OB it seems like Unmade were created by Odium corrupting unique spren that already existed (like Cusicesh), uplifting them in way possibly similar to what Honor/Cultivation did the three Bondsmith Spren.

This is really great analysis. I think the Oaths are definitely supposed to lead the Radiant down a path of growth (sort of like a 12 step program of the like). For the Skybreakers, it’s (2) swear to follow the law in general (3) pick a specific law/code/person to follow (4) test that code in a real-life case (5) synthesize your own code from what you’ve learned. @Leuthie had a really awesome breakdown for the Windrunners! (2) swear to protect (3) protect even the people you didn’t include at first (4) accept you’ll fail to protect sometimes. (5) ????. I think the pattern is: (2) is a general oath to the core focus the order (based on the WoB from the quiz and the canon oaths). So I will: protect, follow the law, remember, seek freedom, etc. Just a basic promise to a specific order. (3) is a bit more complicated. My read is that it’s generally a direct extension of the first, and confronts a sort of ‘loophole’. You can’t pick and choose who’s worthy of protecting. You can’t pick and choose what laws you want to follow. For Bondsmiths, I can see it as asking others to be better also means working to better yourself. Edgedancers are harder to fit, but I’d argue that listening requires more than just remembering. (4) seems to be a big leap. Which makes sense since it’s where you get Shardplate. My read is that this oath is not so much a pressure valve as much as a test. To pass a Skybreaker needs to actually apply their code to an issue they care deeply about and a Windrunner needs to accept they can’t protect anyone. It’s forcing the knight to think critically about the promises they made and how they’re ideals (in a very literal sense of the word) and what to do when they fail to reach them. (5), at least for Skybreakers, is about synthesizing everything they’ve learned. In general, my guess is that the Fifth Windrunner ideal is about extending protection from a direct, individual idea into a societal one and bringing in more of the leadership aspect. As for my specific (5) guess… something like “I will help people protect themselves”.

It's not a question if Nale has a logical out, I think it's a question of if he has recovered enough self-confidence and real justice to do the right thing. He's fifth ideal, he has a ton of freedom in interpretation, while he has a logical argument for why everyone should obey Odium (the one @Frustration mentioned) it's pretty clear that he's working backward. He doesn't want to fight Odium, so he comes up with a reason too (like who he came up with a lawful reason to kill surgebinders). I think there's still hints of him trying, when I was checking back over OB I noticed that he directly stops Szeth from swearing to obey the law/Nale like the rest of the Skybreakers. I think he knows what he's doing is wrong, he keeps mentioning that he's worse than he was, but like the rest of the heralds doesn't really know what to about it. Seeing Venli and Leshwi's separatists might be helpful in reinforcing that shades of grey exist (that it's not just Odium/Singers v. Honor/Humans) but he needs to regain his empathy, not be convinced a new logical argument.

Thanks! I don't have any real idea what the current state of my theorized Shin Shard Stockpile™ is. I feel fairly confident it existed based on the canon info we have so far, but I only have tinfoil for what happened to it with the desolations. Some ideas: 1. Odium has taken, just like you said. Your points are all valid. It does raise the question of where it would be now because the Fused seem to hate the blades, but it's a definite possibility. 2. Odium doesn't care because the Shin are collaborating like the Iri/Rirains. I think it's possible that some/all of the Shin leadership is corrupted enough to be working with Odium . The Shin seem to be sticking to the original Ashlyinte deal (don't cross the Moutain, don't use Stormlight/surge, etc.); they might agree the Singers deserve the rest of Roshar and that it's humanities fault for breaking the original terms. 2. Something about the Stockpile makes it really hard for Odium to access. This is super tinfoil, but based on 'the girl who looked up', the Ashlynites were originally physically confined in Shinovar and didn't have access to stormlight. The highstorms do bring in stormlight to modern Shinovar, but Szeth says that spren are very rare there. There might be something weird going on in the cognitive (and possible spiritual realms) in that area. Maybe the baby jail for humanity isn't just the physical mountains, but some sort of wall extends into the cognitive, making it hard for Odium to access. Or simpler alternative, maybe the bulk is kept in an Aluminum vault to hide it from being sensed. As to the Unmade. Like @Frustration said, Ishar is crazy. He also seems to have murdered one of the Shin cultural leaders. I don't trust a word he says about 'helping' Shinovar. Honestly, it is more likely they're somewhere in a vault protected by the Stone Shamans as you suggest. I just think there's something to the whole shin warrior culture more than just training people out of using Shardblades. If the priests had them hidden in a vault, why would they care if people use traditional weapons? I also liked the narrative symmetry of the Shin treating warriors like they're mindless weapons while arming them Shardblades that are literal weapons with minds. The Shin essentially make their warriors into human deadeyes. But that's rule of cool more than evidence based theory-crafting ¯\_(:/)_/¯

They just really harmonize, you know? It's viridializard's world and we're all just living in it.

Yeah, the images are explicitly in-universe artwork, Shalash clearly has black hair and there's no indication why she wouldn't (Jezerin has black hair, no one mentions she's disguising herself, etc.) I think the only character on Roshar we see with naturally white hair is Wit/Hoid? Which is...interesting.

I'm a big believer in this! Even if a bunch are lost in the ocean/crem the numbers don't add up. Modern-day Roshar has around 100 at most (20ish in each Jah Kaved and Alethkar, 5 in Thaylinar, one in Herzad, a couple in Selay and Azir are the ones mentioned). Dalinar sees more than that being abandoned at Feverstone Keep and those were just Windrunner and Stonewards blades. I would estimate that there were probably around 1000 originally abandoned based on the order sizes, possibly more. I can see losing maybe a hundred blades over a thousand years, but like 90% lost doesn't make sense. We know the Hierocracy was trying to wipe out all records of the Knights Radient, it's totally possible they destroyed the records of blades collected by the Shin during the invasions. It also vibes with everything we've seen about Shinovar: Not letting anyone into the country? If if they've got a stock a shardblades (and possibly plate) lying around somewhere it would make sense to lock that down. Warriors being slaves? If you have hundreds of superweapons lying around you'd need to control, make it so anyone who picks one up has a cultural obligation to obey. I have a crack theory that all the warriors in Shinovar are using shardblades, it would explain why it's illegal for them to be sold to foreigners. Repeated invasions despite being xenophobic? Invasions were just cover to try to recover as many shardblades as possible.

I'm not sure I agree with Kalak is a traitor. His letter shows an interest in cosmere science and investiture, which could explain why he knows a lot about the dagger. He could understand the theory behind it but not know where it is (like knowing nuclear physics vs. knowing the launch codes). We also don't know BAM is evil, the fused are 'very dangerous' but Leshwi has almost as much honor as Kaladin. And it's been made clear that the binding of BAM and the resultant enslavement and literal mindwipe of all the Singers was a pretty serious crime against humanity (singer-manity?) We don't know to what degree he is actually managing to lead the Sons of Honor, the discussion we see with Gavilar in RoW do not give me the impression that he's actually in charge. We see in RoW during the trial that a subgroup of the honorspren are very much managing him even if he's technically High Judge. Even when we see him in the prologues, Nale is clearly the dominant personality. I think it's more likely that someone else is manipulating him than he's the evil mastermind. Honestly, he may be an antagonist, but he reads more as an Elhokar (paranoid but not directly malicious) than a Saedas (calculated and deeply malevolent). My best guess is Ishar. Nale leads the Skybreakers and Kalak (as Restares) supposedly leads to SoH, groups with apparently contradictory goals (SoH want to bring the KR back, SB want to kill them). However, Kalak and Nale seem to be working together, they're a unit at the feast and we know they were both at BAMs binding. We know that Nale relies on Ishar and follows his orders, I think Kalak might be as well. It would fit in the reveal that Ishar is up to some serious nonsense.

This actually really got me in ROW. Like the parallels are too much, like the way they clearly care most about protecting their people and doing the right thing and feel uncomfortable about the larger war they've been thrown into. Of all the relationships that I actually 'ship' this is probably my favorite (excluding canon stuff like Shallan/Adolin). I think they could actually be good for each other! Navani/Raboniel is also great. Not gonna lie, Navani and Dalinar are adorable, but she so much serious chemistry with Raboniel. Kaladin is clearly the most important relationship Moash has, it's not hard to read as romantic! It's the Professor X/Magneto dynamic. Maybe I have an enemies-to-lovers problem? I mostly ship Moash with getting his rust together. As far as the most insane tinfoil crack ship...Maybe Szeth/Nale? Not something I actually really ship but I kinda like the dynamic of them having to figure out what justice actually means together. Nightblood as their adopted child.

I have had that thought so many times Why we have the shards we do is a big question. Brandon does say that "when I split Adonalsium I said, I'm going to take aspects of Adonalsium's nature." which implies that these are all the different pieces of his personality/nature. So it might just be that Odium is hatred/passion, Honor is order/rules, and Valor is courage? There's some overlap in wording, but each has different connotations. Like Dominion/Devotion. But I also buy into the theory that the intents/motivations/emotions of the people doing the shattering had a pretty significant role in what shards were created, which explains why there's overlap. There's a WOB that different shards could have been created under different circumstances and that it was not random who got which shard.

Odium has agreed to be bound and ceasing hostilities no matter who wins. I think the "catch" is that the Singer's themselves have a major reason to continue hostilities even without Odium's direct support. Like Odium is exacerbating the war, but he's the not sole cause.

This a solid point! I'm partial to option 3 type endings myself just because it's more interesting to see something totally unexpected.

Didn't Ico say in OB that deadeyes will travel blindly to go where their physical forms are? That's why his father is locked up in the ship, to stop him from wandering away. He wouldn't have anywhere to wander to of the blade was dismissed. That implies to me that deadeyes aren't tied to their physical form, so seeing Testament doesn't negate the possibility of the blade. We don't even know if it's possible for deadeyes blades to be dismissed without a gemstone, even by their og Radient.

For me there's a difference between 'taking responsibility' as in accepting blame and 'taking responsibility' as in working to make amends. Dalinar is accepting blame for what he's done, but I'd argue that he isn't truly trying to make amends it yet. I think it's a possibility that 'taking responsibility' in the latter sense is the 4th Oath, because, for me, it's where Dalinar is currently stalled on his personal growth. The third Oath is him saying, just because I was a bad person in the past doesn't mean I can't try to be a good person today. It's his whole "sometimes a hypocrite is just a man in the process of change" deal. Dalinar is making massive strides in becoming a better person, part of that is acknowledging that he was a bad person in the past, that's why the in-Universe Oathbringer book is important. Dalinar's so focused on moving forward (and there are reasons for that, he does need to unite Roshar), but I think that it's currently at the cost of actually addressing the historical crimes and injustices he's been a part of. He publishes a novel detailing how he accidentally murdered his wife, but we never see him sit down and talk about it with his sons. Or more abstract, when he dismisses when Gwax mention of the Sunraiser's genocide against the Azish. Just saying, "hey the thing I did was wrong and I promise not to do it again" is important, but it's also more important to actually try to make up for whatever injustice was done. So I think the next biggest step for Dalinar would be to take responsibility and make amends, and that's why responsibility isn't in the third oath (it's in instead the fourth). I also think it would also blend well with Roshar's arc as a whole. Like at some point they're going to need to deal with the fact that Humans invaded the Singer's planet and eventually enslaved them while Singers committed genocide against the humans 10+ times; this isn't something that can be brushed over with 'did an oopsie, promise won't happen again' like Dalinar is doing with his wife's death.

It's not just situationally advantageous but a massive benefit. Honorblades are unkeyed, so literally anyone could pick one up and have access to the full scope of surges. Like a random person could pick up Chana's blade and probably blow up a city if they had access to enough investiture. They may also because to do some tricks that Nahal-bound surges don't. I know the arcanum talks about Honor putting limits on the surges but it's not clear if that's for all Surges in effect on Roshar or just those granted by the Nahal bond.

If this is Adonalsium's feelings during the shattering (which I totally believe now, this is such a great theory), then it's super interesting. I know one of the arguments has been the Adonalsium somehow planned/enacted their own shattering, and if this is what they thought while it happened, it provides some evidence in support of that. Also, the call-outs of specific individual emotions (Resignation, Confidence, Understanding) really remind me of intents. I'd been of the belief that the Intents of the shards were influenced by the people doing the shattering; that they were their beliefs/intents for doing so. Like, someone was shattering to Preserve life, another for Honor, a third because of hatred/Odium, and so on. But this makes me think that the 16 pieces may be the intents/feeling Adolusim itself had about the Shattering. One of the missing shards has a Wisdom/Prudence mapped intent, which matches really well with 'understanding'. 'Resignation' could be Ruin (all things must come to an end) and 'confidence' could be Ambition. This is total tinfoil, but there might be something here.

Sounds like the perfect public defender to me!

Isn't it because Odium figured out a way to circumvent the Oathpact and sneak out the fused through the cognitive realm? Ulim working with Venli possibly as early as Gavilar's assassination, which is way before Taln appears on Roshar. So Taln is 'late' because Odium's forces managed to get of Roshar before he broke. I do think there's a possibility of shenanigans (maybe someone went to Braize to tell him to break? since he wasn't holding anything), but I'm not convinced about the whole Chana thing.

Is the sword still not trapped in the vault in her childhood home? I remember her constantly picturing it as a child. Of course, she "realizes" that it was never there in the first place when she bonded enough with to summon her patternblade, but the original testamentblade should actually still be there. She was conflating the two. The ability to summon dead blades is a third-party fabrial attachment. I guess it's possible that broken KR maintain the ability to resummon their dead blade, but I don't think there's any evidence to that point.

Because what Rayse wants is not the same as Odium's pure intent. They're a better match than Ati and Ruin, but Rayse seems like someone who'd be happier with a shard-like Dominion (as some other thread mentioned). In RoW Venli comments at least one point the power within Odium is responding positively to her arguments while the vessel is dismissing her. If Odium's intent is truly "divine wrath, Justified vengence, the anger at betrayal" (as @Frustration calls it) then maybe Rayse so invested in the Singers because it's the best way for him to use his power and eventually get himself free. Like how Leras had to figure out how a complicated plan to take out Ruin while embodying Preservation. It sort of makes sense, to explain how/why Singers originally bonded to him. We know that Odium was on the side of the humans originally, but that something happened and the result was his being bound the Braize and humanity turning to Honor/Cultivation while the Singers were left in the dust. I would be surprised if that they found common ground in their betrayal by Honor/Humanity to form their original alliance.

So we're ten days in the universe away from the big headliner event, with Odium/Dalinar. I'm really interested in hearing what everyone thinks the outcome will be because whatever it will be will set the stage for the back half. No matter what Odium is re-bound, but we still have 5 more books of Roshar plot left. The way I see it there are three options. 1) Dalinar wins. Odium goes back to Braize and the coalition regains Alethkar/Herdaz. In this universe, I see the main conflict of the back half being the question of what will happen to the Singers and what the role of the Knights Radiant is now that the Odium is re-bound. Sanderson could use this to highlight that not all problems are caused by the literal personification of hatred sitting on the system and force the Singers and the Humans to confront the atrocities they've wrought in the past. 2) Odium wins. Fused forces keep their control over most of Roshar and Odium gains Dalinar's soul. This is a much darker world for our protagonists but I think it sets up a more focused back half. It becomes much more crucial that they come to terms the fused and to find a way to find some sort of compromise for everyone who lives on Roshar. I think it could try really neatly into what we've seen with the growth and recovery with some other Heralds and Unmade and the 'sympatheic' fused like Leshwi/Rabonial. 3) Chaos reigns. Someone (Cultivation, Hoid, Kelsier, the Stick, etc.) figures out how to break the contest and a totally unexpected result happens. This is the most unpredictable and unlikely ending but there is some basis for it. Both Odium and the Heralds figure out multiple 'loopholes' in the Oathpact, so even bondsmith/Honor deals aren't infallible. What's everyone else guess/thoughts/ideas?

Exactly! If he splits up the characters then ten days could easily take up the whole book. It's also sort of lighting the beacon's moment where everyone's cards get laid on the table. At this point, there's lots of possibility for 'fast travel' (Oathgates, Windrunners, possibly Willshapers/Elsecallers soon). There's also external pressure. The characters know that challenge is coming, so there's internal pressure to finish their missions before the timer. Dalniar explicitly told Kaladin to figure out the whole Ishar/Shinovar thing before the challenge. Also, there are Szeth's flashbacks to pad out the run time. Shinovar has been a black box since the start, so there's a lot that could be revealed. BAM could take forever, but I think they could also be found very quickly if Shallan can figure where to look. Kalak and Nale were both there when she was captured, and Kalak is arguing for her release. Even if he doesn't know exactly where to find her, he may be able to give some serious leads. They're not searching blindly.

Yeah, Kalak talks about how he's losing it and is showing signs of crippling anxiety in the prologue and that's before BAM's imprisonment. She needs to be around for the False Desolation after the Oathpact is broken. I can see it making it worse? Or maybe Kalak's prologue issues are the 'normal' mental health problems he's having after millennia of torture and the more 'curse '/magical side we see with the Herald's in the present is a result of what happened to BAM?