Could Be Fire

The heralds say that the spacing between the last two desolations was between six months and 2 years (coppermind is contradictory) and that someone broke essentially right after they were captured that last time. So approx a year of hide and seek before the torture starts is probably about right.

Thanks! Centuries is super interesting, I've started to become curious how Nale bonding ties in timeline wise with his breaking, Honor dying, recovering his honorblade, etc. Sorry if I'm coming across as too aggressive. Honestly, I think Windrunners are tied with Edgedancers as the best order as far as being a positive force in the world / doing pure good. Your last point is totally right. It's part of the reason that Windrunner's are so good (at least to me) is that they embody the idea of "let's stop people from dying first before we try to untangle what's right". I just wanted to highlight that internal morality is also a subjective code, but I'm not sure if that came across. I'm not Skybreaker stan (they can be a little valid, not a lot lol). I started this because I'd seen comments that suggested there was no way Skybreakers could be good or that following an external code of laws was objectively bad and I was trying to conceptualize for myself was a true 'lawful good' order would be like. I'm excited to see it's as interesting a topic to everyone else.

I mean...valid. That is the major weakness of the sky breaker order and the cause of their current problems. They're all sworn to (and therefore as only just as) Nale. However, at least what I believe is that this weakness extends to the other orders as well. Windrunner's are only as honorable as their own moral code on who should be protected. Yes, the second ideal forces them to go beyond personal feelings but it doesn't force them to change their perception of what is honorable. Honorspren, or at least Syl, seems to have way better taste than the Highspren, but there are lots of real-world examples of people with a very twisted sense of what honor and protection mean. Also, Windrunner's are also 'choosing' a code to follow just like Skybreakers. It's just their own moral code as opposed to an external one. Honor isn't universal just like the law isn't. There can be massive differences in what people think is morally right/wrong to protect (see any intro to ethics case study like abortion, right to die, etc). Two Windrunners could end up on opposing sides of those issues. Spren, at least true Nahal bonding spren, aren't any more moral than people are. I'm only up through OB as well, but Malata explicitly says her spren is fine with what the Diagram is doing (Chp 107) which includes murdering people in an underground hospital. Even Honorspren aren't perfect, Ivory says that they're disliked within the Shadesmar because of their attempts at conquering everyone (OB Chp. 47). Nale's spren is bonded to Nale's soul it's probably as crazy as he is. Also totally off topic, but do we know when Nale became a KR? Is there some 5000+ year old highspren floating around with him?

I think it's important to remember that almost everyone sorta off their rocker currently, including the true spren. Yes, the highspren still bonding with the modern skybreakers but at least one ashspren has also decided to forsake the KR and join up with the diagram. Both the Honorspren and the Inkspren are against reforming their orders even in the face of another desolation, ready to let humanity die. True spren aren't innately better or more moral than people. Even Syl comments that the bond is based on Kaladin's perception of honor, not hers.

You got me exactly! Those were some in-between labwork notes so sorry for the confusion! I think Lawful Neutral/Lawful Good characters are really cool in concept but it's really tricky to pull off in a way that doesn't seem stodgy and ultimately immoral. I have faith that whatever road Sanderson leads Szeth/Skybreakers down with will be super interesting.

Exactly! That's the crux of this whole rant. Modern Skybreakers are objectively not great but that's because they're being guided by a crazy person who is literally a corrupted paragon of Justice. This was just my philosophizing about what non-corrupted Skybreakers would be like. That is completely valid. It's the whole Nohadon quote "Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren." A major weakness of the KR system is that spren are (basically) people too with varied morals/opinions. I will point out Nale is a special case as a herald and KR. He may be pulling rank on his spren. I think the whole "unflinching" bit might be driven by Nale's particular breed of crazy. Judging current Skybreaker interpretation of justice would be judging Windrunner's leadership capabilities off of Jezrein. Like above, you are right that Skybreakers with their hierarchal authoritarian structure is more susceptible to this corruption. Szeth stands out in Skybreaker training camp because he bends the rules and actually thinks about the limitations and how to accomplish his goals within the frameworks laid out. Dunking himself to wash out the paint and realizing the warden deserved punishment was not the 'blind acceptance of laws' response, but indicative of a thoughtful interpretation of the law. He gets rewarded for this behavior (speedrunning the ideals, Nale's special attention).

I know I’m not alone in struggling to see Skybreakers as not sorta evil, particularly in comparison to Windrunners. Like it seems to come down to Honor vs. the Law, which seems pretty biased. Especially when the easiest comparison is best boy Kaladin vs. dumpster fire Szeth. After some thought here’s my outline for how Skybreakers are actually kinda valid. Skybreakers are their core are about consistency and fairness. It's not so much the law, as a willingness to follow a personal code, that Nale is most interested in (WOB). So it’s not really about following the law. It’s about following a code. It’s not supposed to be about abdicating moral decision making. It’s supposed to be about putting fairness over your own opinion. By swearing themselves to a code, Skybreakers are trying to transcend their own biases. This doesn’t mean Skybreakers can’t be flexible. See Szeth choosing to punish the Warden over prisoners (OB). In fact, the pattern of Skybreaker ideals is about developing and understanding your own set of ethics. Kant would probably be a great Skybreaker. 2nd Ideal: “I swear to seek justice, to let it guide me until I find a more perfect Ideal.” and “I will put the law before all else” It's about making a commitment to justice, a promise to follow a higher authority than your own biases. Notably, unlike the next, this ideal gives the flexibility to try out different codes and rules of ethics. A 2nd level Skybreaker is working to eliminating biases and exploring different ethical frameworks. 3rd Oath of Dedication Here the Skybreaker makes a commitment to a specific external code/authority. It could be a person (Dalinar) or it could be "the law of the land" or anything. The Skybreaker has explored what exists and chosen a code they think is most just. 4th Ideal of Crusade I think this is supposed to function as a test of the code they’ve chosen to follow, like a practical version of thought experiments like the Trolley problem. The Radiant has to see how the code they’ve chosen applies to a real-world situation they have a deep personal investment in. It’s both a test of the Skybreaker (how well can you ignore your own bias to apply a code) and also a test of the law they’ve chosen to follow (does it actually work in the real world). 5th Ideal of Law The Skybreaker has gained such an in-depth understanding of ethics and proven ability to ignore bias that they grow beyond the need for an external guide and ‘become the law’. This is were they synthesize everything learned through the other ideals and formulate their own set of ethics. Side Note: An example of a case where a Skybreaker might make a “better” (at least to my view) decision than a Windrunner would be Kaladin’s WOR dilemma. Both a Skybreakers and Windrunner would have a similar problem: help my friend get justice vs. support the assassination of someone I’m guarding. The Windrunner (Kaladin) is supposed to protect people, and people therefore either fall into the ‘protect’ or ‘protect from’ category. Elhokar ends up getting slotted into the ‘protect’ category and Moash into ‘protect from’. He saves someone’s life temporarily but ultimately does nothing to help the underlying issue. Elhokar never has to confront what he did to Moash and Moash still wants blood. A Skybreakers is supposed to find justice. Elhokar doesn’t deserve to die for negligence and being a bad leader but Moash was truly wronged and has valid complaints. To be just would balance that Elhokar both deserves to live but also to be punished. A good (not modern) Skybreaker could better equipped to take in the grey areas of issues. In short, Skybreakers play the role of the legal system while Windrunners are more like first responders. The Windrunner keeps people from being murdered but a Skybreaker's role is to figure out how it got to the point of murder in the first place.

Do we know for certain that the Heralds actively chose to shift the pact to Taln alone? I read it as them figuring out another loophole (like the torture loophole) that allows a herald to drop out. They know for certain Taln is dead, so if the rest of them voluntarily remove their status as heralds (how that happens is a question) then by default Taln holds the line. Honestly, the loophole may have just been realizing that not all ten are necessary, that one person on Braize is enough. I will admit this doesn't explain why they were fine with Kalak possibly being dead, but even if they did somehow shift the lock directly to Taln alone, what was the plan if Kalak was dead? Jezrein was a bit coy about what was going on, if Kalak hadn't admitted he was broken would they have had him go to Braize as well? On another note, I'm not sure I buy the lock is keyed to powerful surge binding, but I do think you're on to something about the herald's reaction to honor's death. I don't think Jezrien's orders are for magical oath reasons, I think they're literally just trying to hide from Honor. Abandoning their blades and not congregating would presumably help them escape his notice. I can't imagine Honor was pleased about the heralds voluntarily abandoning the oathpact. Then, after Honor is shattered Nale takes back his blade and the rest feel comfortable interacting with each other (Nale, Kalak, Ishar, and Ash are clearly in contact) and being more obvious about their presence.

Do we know he brings the Cryptic with him? As opposed to just leaving them in Shadesmar and traveling without them. I mean if anyone figures out a way to do it would be Hoid but technically I don't think it's confirmed.

I mean the moment in WoK when he actually eats one and is just so disappointed in himself for liking it is gold.

As far as the Shin theory, this could also tie into why Shinovar has less spren. If they have a stockpile with hundreds of deadeyes it could certainly be creepy enough to scare off normal spren. Occum's razor says the Shin have them. They've got be somewhere on Roshar by the WoB and every other nation could not keep it on the DL. I can see a dozen or so being hidden in private hands (assassins like Liss etc.) but hundreds unaccounted for indicates a conspiracy. The super-secretive (no one even knows who their leaders are) extremely isolated nation who have hidden the other set of missing magical swords are the most likely option. There's some on good theories on the forum about Shubreth and what the Shin have been doing since Recreance that support that. Also if you're a Shin leader is hiding hundreds of WMD swords than it would make sense to instill a major cultural taboo about weapon-wielding to prevent people from overthrowing you. My other two guesses are stockpiled in Anima to keep them away from humans (adding to why Anima is so locked down) or something totally wild we have no way of guessing 3 books into the series. Like there's a populated landmass on the Origin or the living Spren have hidden them under the ocean.

There's definitely something up with Shinovar from a linguistic-cultural standpoint. It's all just muddled by the fact that the timeline makes it very unclear when they're were isolated and how much interaction they had with other Rosharan cultures (both human and listener). They're extremely isolated in modern-day Roshar. So much so that nobody even knows what their political system is. However, in the past, they've head at least one Ghengis Khan style conquerer that used Shardblades/surge, they were part of the Silver Kingdoms, and we have Shin Knight Radients in the Gem Archives. The fact they're so phenotypically distinct from other Rosharans is hard to fit in the timeline. Either sometime right before their current isolationary period (Shamanate rule), their population was cut to almost nothing for founder effect genetics. Or sometime in early Rosharan history, they were super isolated from the rest of Roshar (they're implied to be one of the few human ethnic groups who haven't mixed with Listeners). My guess is that the Shinovar we see in the story is descended from the original Ashynites who kept the listener's agreement to not expand beyond the Mountains. Either actually direct descent of a continuous culture for the whole history or at some point they found out the true history (eila stele style) and decided to follow their ancient promises (don't cross the mountains, don't use stormlight, etc.) the best they could.

Yeah, the whole lying to reveal the truth plan was such a lightweaver move. It's why I was a believer in the proto-Radiant!Elhokar theory since WOK. I'd also add that beyond the elements of his personality that we see (focused on other's perception of him and his own self-identity/inferiority complex) that are lightweaver-esque his current status is very intriguing to a cryptic. He's technically the King, but no one respects him as a ruler and Navani/Dalinar are treated as the de facto rulers. I can totally see a Cryptic interested in what it means to be "king" as it's very much one of those societal constructs they seem to love.

Like @thegatorgirl00 mention we have a WOB saying that it's not strictly a family relationship thing, but just that being around Radiants makes you more likely to become a Radiant yourself. This can cause positive feedback loops leading to a bunch of clustered Radiants. Basically having a Radiant around makes spren more likely to pay attention to the physical realm, so they more easily find people to bond with, so there are more Radiants around, so more spren are paying attention and so on. The WOB also mentions the spiritual web, I think? So it may also be related to the interactions between the spiritual bonds or "connection" between people and the Nahal bonds that literally meld with an individual's spirit web. Like, it might have been easier for Syl to bind with Kal because he was spiritually connected to Tien, who already had a Nahal bond of his own. For a non-familial cluster think of Bridge Four (now there's some squire stuff going on with them) but after Kaladin reveals himself we see a huge number of Windrunners and proto-Windrunners pop up in a very tight cluster. It basically seems like all of the Windrunners on Roshar are in the Kholin army. It spreads almost like a virus (Kaladin --> Bridge 4 --> Other bridgemen --> Kholin Army). We can see a lot of the current Radiants forming sort of network. This may not be the best metaphor, but I just took by Developmental Bio midterm and it almost acts like the signaling during development to reinforce cell specification. Tien's Cryptic bond made Syl more likely to notice Kaladin which lead to the other Honorspren starting to bond with the rest of Bridge Four. Pattern starts re-bonding with Shallan when she's around Jasnah who we see bonding with Ivory when around Gavilar (a proto-Bondsmith). A good example of this effect is Elhokar. Personally, I think he's a super valid Lightweaver on his own merits, but I also think that a large factor in him being a proto-Radiant was basically being surrounded at all times by Radiants and squires (His sister, sister's ward, cousin, uncle, bodyguard, father, etc.)

I run a book club at my university, and the book for this summer is Way of Kings (and possibly WoR and OB as well). We're having mini-meetings every part. I was wondering if anyone had any good ideas for discussion questions or topics or just interesting things they noticed for different sections? For part one we talk a lot about opening world building and first impressions, for the future I have some topics planned (Jasnah's Lesson, Dalinar and authority, The Side-Carry). It's a bit tricky cause it's about 3 first-time Sanderson readers, 2 people cosmere veterans, and one person who's read the rest of the cosmere but is a first time SA reader and I'm trying to make discussion interesting for everybody but non-spoiler-y. Any ideas?

I have a pet theory that Kelsier's father kills his mother (after discovering that she was Skaa) leading Kel to kill his father. There's no real textual evidence for it, but for me provides a good basis for why Kel hates Nobles so much despite being raised as one. Also provides a situation where no one alive would know they're half Skaa except for Kel & Marsh, giving the option to continue the lie

lol this gets me deep in the ASIOAF/Stormlight crossover that's been brewing deep inside me for a while. Stannis is clearly a Skybreaker — the law is what's right Davos an Edgedancer — "what is the importance of one bastard boy" "everything" I would put Theon, Sansa, and Arya all as lightweavers (with Sansa being the strongest candidate and Arya the weakest) — various issues of identity/personal truths and in Theon and Sansa's case some creativity Ned, Jon, and Cat I'd put as a Windrunners — Honor! and also protecting (both his family, but also Cersei's and her children) for Ned and Cat's essentially leading the North and also her focus on protecting her family (like Kal and Bridge Four). Jon in the Night's Watch is very much Kaladin and the Bridgemen. Dany is a Bondsmith, but not a very good one or at least a new one — her crusade to free the slaves feels very 'unite me' and also she's clearly speshul which Bondsmiths seem to be Jaime is a also a Windrunner, but a broken one — killing the king to protect the city is a very city is a very windrunner thing to do, along with a lot of his pre-series actions Tyrion is maybe an Elsecaller— his interest and scholarship along with his wide travels

Hi! I've known about this board for a few years, but OB release inspired me finally join. I've been a cosmere fan for years (and an unknowing Sanderson fan for longer! The Evil Librarians was one of my favorite books series as a kid). I started with Mistborn, but I've slowly worked my way though the rest of his books. Stormlight is probably my favorite, but I have a soft spot in my heart for Elantris. I've always been a nut for detailed world-building, but hate when author's don't know how to tell a good story in their world so Sanderson is one of my favs.

Spoilers of WoK, WoR, and ED. I just finished my Storm-light re-read before diving into OB, I wanted to write down the thoughts I had. I add another post with updated information from OB once I finish it. I know it feels kinda stupid to post theories without having finish OB, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I kinda like having it in two parts to prevent spoiling. The idea that something beyond guilt of abandoning the oath-pact is negatively affecting the heralds, specifically by twisting their attributes. ((I like the 9 desolations, one broken heard each one theory but this theory doesn’t depend on that, but they do compliment)) @Argent Fallen Heralds theory is really amazing and reading it helped me finalize mine but in my opinion, the ‘brokenness’ is probably more a twisting that the different heralds react differently too. Some act in direct opposition to their (shalash destroying art), other's lose it (Nale's sense of justice or Jezrins honor), other's take it to terrible extremes (Ishar?) Twisting is something we’ve seen ‘evil’ shards and Sanderson do before. Think Ruin re-writing history. Evidence! This will be most focused on Nale. because we’ve got the most textual evidence of his behavior with some light commentary on Kalak, Jezrien, Taln, and Shalash. Preliminary stuff One of the big lines that stood out to me for conceptualizing this theory is “We weren’t supposed to get worse. Am I getting worse? I think I feel worse.” Nale’s companion in WoR prologue. My belief here is that’s he’s talking about the Heralds and whatever happened to them. The phrasing of it ‘get worse’ implies to me some sort of sickness or outside influence, not simple guilt. The second two statements imply an inability to recognize what’s going wrongfully, leading me to believe that what’s happening is almost some sort of insanity. The Herald’s on some level know that something is deeply wrong with them, but they are unable to fight it. Nale: Losing his internal sense of justice, he follows the law exactly. Nale is an interesting case and is part of what makes theorizing what happened to the herald’s so difficult. One one hand, he’s the most visible herald and we have a comparative trove of information on his current attitude. On the other, He’s clearly an outlier as far as the Herald’s go (His order was the only one the maintain after the Recreance. He’s the only Herald to keep his honor blade.) Nale is also while I say twisting. He’s clearly not acting in direct opposition to his ideal (like Kalak and Shallash lead me to believe) but is no long ‘just’ (He kills a child for stealing in WoR). However, not breaking any laws — he even only seems to be going after surge binders that broke the law and even lets one go when she is pardoned— showing that while he’s willing to twist the law to his goals as best he can, following the law is a sticking point. I believe that Nale’s obsession with following rules is not his insanity, but his way of containing it to the best of his abilities. “Only the Skybreakers ever understood the importance of boundaries. Of picking something external to yourself and using it as a guide. Your minds cannot be trusted. Even my mind—especially my mind—cannot be trusted.” - Edgedancer. Nale speaking to the Skybreakers. Basically going: I’m too insane to make decisions, so I’ll just bind myself to a higher authority and follow laws exactly. Clearly, this isn’t working perfectly, he’s acting pretty insanely throughout Edgedancer and the Interlude, but seems to be trying to do the right thing. If this is true it has some nice parallels in the series. Dalinar does something similar, he attaches himself first to Gravilar and then the Codes, not trusting his own instincts or beliefs but letting himself follow a higher power. Szeth (and the Shin in general) are similar. Warriors can’t be trusted to make decisions, they have to obey whoever holds their stone. Shalash: Destroys expressions of creativity. A lot of people have written about her actions in the Interludes. I don’t have as much to say because honestly, that chapter is more set up for the Nightwatcher than info on Ash. She’s super chill about destroying art, seems almost like it’s her duty to do it, and wants the destroying to be difficult. The evidence here is mostly in support of twisted attributes. Destroying artwork of herself is a pretty simple twisted version of creativity. The idea that she wants it to be difficult leads credence to the idea the Herald’s have some conception that they’re doing something wrong/are trying to control themselves (like Nale and his mistrust of himself). There's lost of wild theorizing that could be done here. Is she destroying is because she's lost her creativity and is jealous? Because she feels a pathological need too? Is her single-minded focus on depictions of herself related to her honest attribute? Jezerin: The protector sacrifice's his own man ““Better that one man should suffer than ten,” Jezrien whispered. He seemed so cold. Like a shadow caused by heat and light falling on someone honorable and true, casting this black imitation behind.” From the WoK prologue, right as the heralds abandon the oathpact. This provides some support to the idea that it wasn’t just thousands of years of guilt that has caused the heralds to act wrong. Something is clearly wrong with Jezrien, he’s abandoning one of his men (against protecting). The phrasing ‘like a shadow caused by heat and light’ brings to mind the effect of an outside influence to me. Specifically, Odium considering his description of a harsh, golden light/energy at the end of WoR. Nale comments on his ‘drooling’ which is more evidence in support of insanity as well. Kalak: The resolute man feels weak Also from the prologue, we see Kalak, who is supposed to be resolute consider breaking the oathpact before even meeting up with Jezrien. He’s described as “shaking” and wonders “when had he become so weak?” If you assume Kalak is the other man Jasnah see’s talking to Nale in the WoR prologue, there’s more support to Kalak’s loss of resolve. He acts paranoid and extremely indecisive. Ishar: The wise leader loses sight of the journey. He’s been telling Nale to kill Radiants in an attempt to prevent to Void-bringers from coming back [ED]. Fits the theory because Ishtar has lost sight of his goal (prevent the void bringers and odium from escaping) but he’s going about it in a twisted or insane way, by killing the only people how can escape. If he’s the God-King of Tukar that some people theorize, that’s more evidence in favor that his divine attribute is twisted. He’s still acting in the vein of being pious and guiding, but it’s twisted into becoming a God-King (never really a good term) that even Mraize is scared of. TLDR: Odium’s breaking of the Herald’s made them slowly go insane, expressed by twisting their divine attributes.