Could Be Fire

My best guess is that if it has serious relevance then it's about how humans first made a deal with Honor. At the most basic the story details how one of the great powers tries to trick a human, and she ends up tricking them and hooking up with the other two powers to gain a little bit of their magic for herself. You could take Mishim as Odium who tries to trick the humans and originally makes a deal with them. Nomon as Honor, it's even called Honor's moon, who realizes he actually likes the humans after all (Salas and Nomon welcoming Tsa with feasts and treating them better than they did Misham) and gives them permission to access forbidden magic (Tsa looking at the starspren vs. humanity access to surge binding/oathpact). Hoid says the story explains why "still crafty Mishim" hasn't tried to leave her place again. It could be that Odium isn't still trying to make deals with the humans because they screwed him over and joined Honor/Cultivation last time. That's why he's focused on the Singers now. Of course, if we go off coloration then Mishim (green) should be Cultivation and Salas (violet) Odium. Which doesn't fit as well with my theory but is interesting considering how much we know about Cultivation and her goals.

I think you hit the heart of it. Mistborn are a very different kind of fighter than KRs (the WoB about how Kaladin would be Kelsier in a duel but Kelsier would kill him in a less-stringent setting highlights this). Emotional allomancy is a huge deal. I can't think of any other type of power that allows easy manipulation of other people on that level, it's a power like the Unmade/Odium more than ordinary KRs. Kaladin's insanely well set up as a soldier, but if someone rioted his depression he'd be very vulnerable. It's also very flexible. Allomancer's are one of the few kinds of magic users we've seen who can easily act a full power off-world (KR can't leave at all, Elantrians barely can and are greatly depowered, awakeners can't acquire more breaths off-world). All an Allomancer needs is ordinary metal. This is an important skill if you have cosmere level plans you want to enact. Metallic arts also have some of the most powerful potential out of any magic we've seen, compounding is insane. It's the key to not only unlimited health but unlimited investiture or fortune. Hemalurgy also unlocks basically any kind of investiture available. KR are powerful, and as individuals are some of the strongest investiture users, but their powers are also very controlled and contained. They're very much people given power for a specific purpose (to protect and rebuild society). Other than maybe bondsmiths, they also don't have any access to the meta/spiritual abilities (F-chromium/nicrosil/etc., A-electrum/gold/chromium, all of hemalurgy, even Selish forgery) that other magic systems have free play in.

IKR? Unfortunately, it seems there are major future cosmere plans for the brothers (or at least Kelsier), so it'll probably all be RAFO'd or deliberately vague like the Herald's backstory timeline questions (which is also a mess). In Brandon's defense, timelines are really hard and he might not even have a definitive answer in his own head yet. The Marsh story is Mistborn 1, while the Kelsier answers are all more recent and blend better with the WoBs. Maybe he originally had Marsh snapping very young but reorganized what he wanted their background to be as he plotted out more of the cosmere. Like Elhokar's eye color shifting when he wanted to highlight the Gavilar resemblance for emotional impact.

We have so little to go one as far as what actually is a resonance. Like Windrunners having more squires and Lightweavers having mnemonic abilities are the two confirmed ones. I think Sanderson's gone back and forth on Wax's steel bubble ability being savantism or resonance or being a savant in his resonance (see this WOB) I think a lot of the RAFOs are because he isn't really sure how it works yet. The best we get is "The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power." Sort of like Harmony out Ruin/Preservation. Surge resonances appear to be abstract and more deeply related to the oath's order as a whole as opposed to just a simple interaction between the two forces they control. In cosmere terms, much more of a Spiritual interaction than a Physical one. Like, being able to share your power with more people isn't a logical jump from the interaction between gravity and attraction. Maybe it has to do with how different forms of investiture are related to different Spiritual properties (connection/identity/fortune/etc.)? But if the steel bubble is a resonance, it's more a new way to apply power than a spiritual perk. More like how Shallan can give weight to her illusions (Transformation/Illumination). If so, then maybe compounding is a sort of resonance. If it's a Spitural thing for all resonances, then Wayne's resonance is probably something to with his imitation (I can see bloodmaking being connected to identity). If it's a Physical thing, then it's probably something like filling them way faster (maybe the same rate as if he were in a time bubble) or maybe having better control over tapping them.

Scandrians - French. Staff speaks with a movie villain's German accent in my head but that's more a character read than worldbuilding read lol. Era 2 has more a New Orleans/Bayou accent which is my brain's interpretation of french + the old west. Nobles in Elendel have more of a Quebecois accent. Horneaters - Pacific Islander like @Fezzik I grew up in an area with a major Tongan enclave, so they sound like that to me. Herdezdain - Spanish. Lopen def has a LA/California style accent. Paloma has a 'fancier' one (more lisp-y like Spain spanish). Lift has an Ecuadorian one, but that's just because drawings I've seen of her remind me a girl I knew. Alethi - British / Indian English. Sort of on a spectrum depending on the character. In-universe I picture Rosharan's in general having very 'sing-song-y' accents compared to other worlds, a vestige of the impact of Singer culture.

Not gonna lie, straight up forget about the existence of grandparents. He did say that they joined the underground once their parents had died, so they wouldn't have been with them long. That's what I was trying to get at. Kel says they move to Luthadel/joined the underground when their parents died, Marsh implies his mother died young. You're right about the family quote. I missed that one. It def implies that Kelsier meant that he could pass successfully as a noble not that he'd never been caught when he talked about giving up the charade.

I like this! It explains how an obligator could have killed their mother without their secret being revealed. And having an obligator high noble father highlights how Marsh and Kelsier take very different approaches to the same problem (hating the Ministry vs hating all nobility). The only issue I still sort of have is the time. If the obligator (their father) killed their mother when Marsh was very young (and Kelsier was even younger) then did they leave for the Luthendal underground as pre-teens/teens? Maybe their father kept them around for a while, having no other heirs and Marsh being a misting, but eventually killed himself/was murderered. I don't know, I'm deep into aluminum foil hat territory. I even remember a WoB that Obligators can (and did) marry, which is another point in evidence of your theory.

Bondsmiths are special. It's the difference between being a leader and the leader. It's a very meta role. I think Elend and Sazed (and maybe Vin or possibly Kelsier?) all have some level of Bondsmith potential. Also, it's a group of thieves and revolutionaries, which is gonna attach lightweavers and willshapers more than anyone else. It's not just about potential and personality, nahal bonding seems to be about your goals in life and how you approach problems (see the Kelsier Willshaper vs. Lightweaver discussion) so the sort of people who join up to use a heist to take the oppressive government are gonna fit best in those two orders. Lots of other characters, like Marsh, Elend, Sazed, or Tyndwyl are def not either of those orders.

Your analysis is really great! I noticed the discrepancies in their background and there's definitely something going on. It is a question of it's purposeful or just a narrative slip (there are a few in Mistborn I think like some sliver/tin issues). Brandon's been deliberately coy about Kelsier's/Marsh's family. I remember him having an excuse for why no noble family claims lineage from them and The only WOB about them I was able to find was: This fits with what Kell says about being raised noble and implies that she told them that they were Skaa (which makes sense considering how the brothers are proud of the Skaa side, they don't read like nobles who realized they were Skaa) but doesn't really answer any questions about their past. Kelsier says specifically that "It had been a vast relief when, after their parents’ deaths, the two of them had agreed to give up the pretense and enter the underground of Luthadel." To me, this implies a few things. First, their parent's died together, which does fit, having children with a Skaa is a huge crime for nobles as well a Skaa either obligator murder or shame suicide (like kingsdaughter613 suggests) make sense why their dad died at the same time. Second, that they were teenagers or young adults when their parents died, "agreeing to give up the pretense" is pretty mature phrasing to me, not something a pair of recently orphaned kids (<13 years) would think. You also need time from when they were told they were skaa (it's like five-year-olds are great at keeping secrets) for the resentment about hiding would grow between them. Third, even if their parents were found out, their halfbreed status was still somehow secret, again "agreed to give up the preetense" vs. "ran away to escape the Caton of Inquisition tracking them down". Basically, none of that works with Marsh's claim that he snapped young. Like you said young has to be pre-teen (I imagine the Beating of the Wanting of the Snap to be somewhere between 10-16, likely around 13) but it could be younger, Spook snapped at 5 and doesn't comment on being young. Also would just knowing that their mother was taken away be enough to snap Marsh? I got the vibe that he was there/saw it, in which case how did he avoid being revealed as half-Skaa? Do we know they're actually from the Western dominance. The blonde hair is a Western thing, but couldn't their mom be from there originally and then moved to find their father? It would honestly make more sense if they didn't grow up in the west if their mom was one of the richer Skaa from the edges of the empire and then moved somewhere else to pretend to be noble (like lighter-skinned Black people moving states and pretending to be white post Civil War).

Lol thanks. Like I said I get the lightweaver thing. Honestly, it's 50/50 in my mind. It really would come down to Kell's ability to self reflect and whether he cares more about truth or freedom. It's like how I think young Kaladin could have made an excellent Edgedancer if he'd attracted a cultivationspren but he grew away from that as he got older/bonded with an Honorspren. The art thing is true (he also doesn't seem to care about architecture/buildings so that's also a point against Willshaper). I will say there I think there are some little hints that Elhokar cares about art, Shallan notes his rooms in Urithuiru well decorated and I think Dalinar (or maybe Kaladin) comments that the palace the shattered palace is really pretty/has great art. It's weak but it's also socially unacceptable for Vorin men to be artists so ¯\_(:/)_/¯. Your analysis is on the Vin scene is really great. I was wrong about that not being enough, I agree "I don't know why I did it" would be an excellent oath for him considering how much he places on his self-confidence. To that end, I think the theme of his truths would be about self-reflecting on his own mortality. The first would be to accept that he doesn't really know the reasons behind his choices. However, I would argue that he's not really honest about his morality, and that's where the 'psychopath' truth comes from. He acknowledges he's not a good man, but to me, that came across more in the sense of not trying to be a noble hero (Kaladin style) and that he would go to extreme lengths to achieve his goals. There's a difference between believing you're an anti-hero vs knowing you're a psychopath (or at least have majorly impaired empathy). He's able to do what no one else does to help the Skaa, but he's able to do that because he doesn't really care (and in some cases prefers) if a lot of people die. That truth would be about acknowledging his own capacity for evil and that he needs to be careful about what ends he picks because his means may lack morals. Maybe also about realizing he needs to trust other people's moral judgment over his own (which he sort of accepts in Mistborn, realizing Vin is more important and right about Elend deserving to live and trusting Marsh to save everyone). Thank you for putting it into words! Better suited to Willshapers but more likely a bond a cryptic is exactly what I what I was trying to get it.

I agree more with @Kingsdaughter613. I think Kelsier is pretty close to a textbook Willshaper based on what we know about them. I will say that there's a strong argument to be made for lightweaver. The secrets thing and how lying can be used to achieve goals. The biggest thing would be the absence of any apparent love of art (even Tien has the little horse carvings). I will also say that if Kelsier would totally be attractive to Cryptics. I do think he's lying to himself. The scene at the end of Secret History were Vin asks him why he tried to overthrow the Lord Ruler points to some juicy possible truths (the idea of "I'm a little bit a psychopath" as a truth makes me laugh). However, his being a successful lightweaver is dependent on his ability to confront the lies he tells himself and accept, which I don't see him in doing any canon so far. So while Kell is total Cryptic bait, I don't know if he could actually swear those oaths and mean it. I do think he could be a full Willshaper as he is now. The quiz mentions that Willshapers could be "warriors focused freeing those who are captive" which works well with the Skaa situation. I know that is complicated how much of it was selflessness vs. egotism that drove Kelsier to try to free the Skaa but it's inarguable that was a major part of his goals. Yes, he wanted to screw over the Lord Ruler, but he could have done that with the Nobles if he wanted, I believe a part of him genuinely wanted the Skaa to be free. Honestly, that's why I don't think he's a Windrunner. He wasn't really about protecting or leading the skaa (that's Marsh/Elend/Vin) he was about giving them freedom. It also says "the Willshapers contain many gregarious and even flamboyant characters who make their own way, taking the path they choose". I would say Kelsier fits that to a T. Beyond the quiz there's the Gem Archive Quote that's like "can I finally admit that I hate this place? Too many rules" from a Willshaper which is very much a Kell comment.

Supporting this, the text points to Kel being the only person Hoid has/can slap around. We know that he "cannot physically harm people" and Brandon says that "If you re-read [were Hoid attacks Kelsier], Hoid himself is shocked he's able to do what he does there." (WOB). It takes a lot to shock Hoid (Shallan hugs non-withstanding), so this is clearly something very unexpected that hasn't happened before. I think this is the most specific clue. It's been made clear that Hoid can't physically harm people (reinforced in the OB epilogue). Kel is the only one we've seen him "slap around" in text and is literally the crux of their first meeting. Hints like Lord of Scars could possibly point other in-text concepts (like Taln's scar constellation as pointed out) but this has no other basis in canon to point to any other character or concept.

I really like this theory! We do see passionspren which are associated with the thrill/strong feelings but there is a distinct absence. It might be related how Honor/Cultivation created the "highspren" like why are Ash/Ink spren are sentient but Flame/Logic spren aren't? There doesn't appear to be a pattern in the types of spren that are true/higher in terms of type. Maybe Honor and Cultivation directly uplifted 10 classes of normal spren to form the Nahal bond.

We know that the Shattering involved a very disparate group of people with widely varying motivations not all of whom took up shards. It was very much a group effort, so one person is no even in the same universe as being as strong as Ado but a group of people? With DS revealing more about the dawnshards, I figured you had four people holding them working in concert to shatter Ado along with a bunch of other powerful magic users. I think so. But my favorite cosmere end game theory is a complete shattering of Adonalsium's power so it just becomes part of the ecosystem of the universe as opposed to being held by a few powerful shards.

It feels like a massive failure on the part of the Sleepless (and whatever Dawnshard guarding organization they're a part of) if they not only let another person become a dawnshard but that that person also became a bond smith with access to Honor's power. That's the magic combo of command + intent + investiture that would make Dalinar one of the most dangerous people in the entire cosmere if true. There's also WOB that "[The sleepless] never thought, in a million years, the intruders would absorb the Dawnshard. It wasn't seen as possible for a variety of reasons". So there was some way of hiding Dawnshard's so that it was though they couldn't be put back into people. The other three are likely that way. Another WOB says that the one Dawnshard that is "different from the rest" is still different following the book, so that difference wasn't the fact that the rest are in people and one was in a mural.

Could it just be Odium's intent is directed in a way that makes killing Shard's easier? Devotion/Dominion might not have the 'attack' power something like Hatred can summon. Rayse may have also been on the only shard's to figure out the 'trick' of attack. We see him getting more successful overtime. Ambition he only is able to seriously wound, Devotion/Dominion he destroys but not in a neat shattering but partially by shoving their powering in the cognitive realm. Cultivation probably has the same issues as Preservation for attacking and Honor may need an honorable reason to kill someone that Odium is smart enough to provide. MISTBORN spoilers In favor, it could be Hoid's particularly dawnshard made him incapable of harm (I know some people have theorized a care/nuture). Savantism is a very specefic tip of investiture bleed (a mistborn could be a savant in a particular metal overused, not a general mistborn savant) so different Dawnshards could have different lasting effects. If Odium was careful he could have picked one that support's his intent. It seems Ashlynite's had at least two at one point. Honor always calls them "dawnshards" as a plural that they had/used so it's def possible for two to be on one planet. It is strange that whoever was guarding CHANGE would bring it back to the world where Odium is trapped and Dawnshards were used as weapons. Seems like hiding it literally anywhere else in the cosmere would be better.

That's a great catch!! I love this thread, this is one of the best 'probably actually canon' theories I've seen in a while.

Kaladin doesn't really have a "fallen title" to pick up. I've heard good arguments for Gavinor in the back half. He (a boy), Fallen title (crown prince of destroyed Alethkar), town/crown (Kholin glyph pair), Spear (weapon used to kill Elhokar and also weapon associated with the Windrunners). Spear's def the odd one out, but if we see Gav learning to use a spear or working with the windrunners it'll be strong evidence. I can see Sanderson pulling parallels with an eventual Gavinor with spear vs. Moash with the honorblade fight to close out the cycle of revenge.

Do we know that CHANGE was the dawnshard the Ashlynite's had? In DS is only says that the CHANGE was brought through Cultivation's perpendicularity in the peaks sometime before the Recreance. Pre-recreance is a huge timeframe. It could be the same one that destroyed Ashlyn and was brought over with the Ashlynite refugees (less than 6,000 years after the Shattering, probably around 4,000). Maybe it was part of the trade for the land in Shinovar (give us the superweapon and we'll give you somewhere to live). It could also be a totally separate dawnshard that was brought over much more recently just before the Recreance (closer to 10,000 years after the shatter or around 2,000 pre-modern Roshar). Also it's always dawnshards every time Honor mentions them, so did the Ashlynites have two or more at some point?

Just a comment but it seems the madness is more of an inversion of their attributes rather than too much of them. Also sort of a twisting of their 'role' Smarter ppl than me have fully explained but in summary: Jezerin (protecting/leading) --> drunkard how can't protect or lead anyone. King --> Beggar Nale (just/confident) --> his entire crusade is actively unjust (the murder of the food thief, searching for excused to kill baby radients) one could argue his confidence has been affected as well, look at his interaction with Lift in ED, his reliance on Ishar, and how he hints to Szeth to not follow him in OB. Good cop --> Bad cop. Shalash (creative/honest) --> has to destroy images of her own face, obviously against creativity but also an inability to literally 'face herself' which implies issues with self-reflection. Artist --> Vandal Kalak (resolute/builder) --> man's an anxious wreck who makes every decision by committee and is trying to flee from his problems rather than stand and build something new Builder/Maker (of both of literal cities and societies) --> High Judge (essentially useless, he's not actually helping the Honorspren be a better nation at all) Taln (dependable/resourceful) --> comatose, can't be depended on to do anything (Taln's an interesting case because his issue may be entirely 4500+ years of torture and not the twisted magic madness the rest have, he certainly seems thoughtful and dependable in his moment of clarity during OB) If it was overuse of their attributes we'd for example Kalak to be overconfident and stubborn and Ash to be lost in creating art. Nale's the only one who seems like he's overdoing his attribute but that's because he's putting on a facade of Justice, he's clearly not and knows it. So Chana (brave/obedient) should be cowardly and/or disloyal or rebellious. That was the crux of the Lyss argument (the twisted version of a guard would be an assassin) but Shallan's mother is a good idea as well especially with the new redhead art. Her whole relationship with the mystery man both the infidelity and trying to murder her family with them does speak to twisted obedience. I mean someone did. Shallan's mother had a strange boyfriend. I think the theory he was a Skybreaker (which is how Helearan got hooked up with them) and that's why they tried to kill Shallan. I think it's more likely that they realized that Shallan broke her bond with Testament and never checked back in assuming that no sane spren would bond someone how'd already made one Deadeye. They thought that had accomplished their mission (get rid of a KR).

The heralds say that the spacing between the last two desolations was between six months and 2 years (coppermind is contradictory) and that someone broke essentially right after they were captured that last time. So approx a year of hide and seek before the torture starts is probably about right.

Thanks! Centuries is super interesting, I've started to become curious how Nale bonding ties in timeline wise with his breaking, Honor dying, recovering his honorblade, etc. Sorry if I'm coming across as too aggressive. Honestly, I think Windrunners are tied with Edgedancers as the best order as far as being a positive force in the world / doing pure good. Your last point is totally right. It's part of the reason that Windrunner's are so good (at least to me) is that they embody the idea of "let's stop people from dying first before we try to untangle what's right". I just wanted to highlight that internal morality is also a subjective code, but I'm not sure if that came across. I'm not Skybreaker stan (they can be a little valid, not a lot lol). I started this because I'd seen comments that suggested there was no way Skybreakers could be good or that following an external code of laws was objectively bad and I was trying to conceptualize for myself was a true 'lawful good' order would be like. I'm excited to see it's as interesting a topic to everyone else.

I mean...valid. That is the major weakness of the sky breaker order and the cause of their current problems. They're all sworn to (and therefore as only just as) Nale. However, at least what I believe is that this weakness extends to the other orders as well. Windrunner's are only as honorable as their own moral code on who should be protected. Yes, the second ideal forces them to go beyond personal feelings but it doesn't force them to change their perception of what is honorable. Honorspren, or at least Syl, seems to have way better taste than the Highspren, but there are lots of real-world examples of people with a very twisted sense of what honor and protection mean. Also, Windrunner's are also 'choosing' a code to follow just like Skybreakers. It's just their own moral code as opposed to an external one. Honor isn't universal just like the law isn't. There can be massive differences in what people think is morally right/wrong to protect (see any intro to ethics case study like abortion, right to die, etc). Two Windrunners could end up on opposing sides of those issues. Spren, at least true Nahal bonding spren, aren't any more moral than people are. I'm only up through OB as well, but Malata explicitly says her spren is fine with what the Diagram is doing (Chp 107) which includes murdering people in an underground hospital. Even Honorspren aren't perfect, Ivory says that they're disliked within the Shadesmar because of their attempts at conquering everyone (OB Chp. 47). Nale's spren is bonded to Nale's soul it's probably as crazy as he is. Also totally off topic, but do we know when Nale became a KR? Is there some 5000+ year old highspren floating around with him?

I think it's important to remember that almost everyone sorta off their rocker currently, including the true spren. Yes, the highspren still bonding with the modern skybreakers but at least one ashspren has also decided to forsake the KR and join up with the diagram. Both the Honorspren and the Inkspren are against reforming their orders even in the face of another desolation, ready to let humanity die. True spren aren't innately better or more moral than people. Even Syl comments that the bond is based on Kaladin's perception of honor, not hers.

You got me exactly! Those were some in-between labwork notes so sorry for the confusion! I think Lawful Neutral/Lawful Good characters are really cool in concept but it's really tricky to pull off in a way that doesn't seem stodgy and ultimately immoral. I have faith that whatever road Sanderson leads Szeth/Skybreakers down with will be super interesting.