Bliev

My faith in Adolin is everlasting. I storming love that kid. This was an amazing chapter. So much dynamic interaction, ups and downs, realistic dialogue and character exposition. Just beautifully done. I love how so much of our speculation from pre ROW, post OB times, Brandon just lays to rest in a chapter lol. like it's nothing. Yeah, Wit's here, everyone knows him; Shallan is okay but there are semi-formed personalities laying in wait; Dalinar told everyone about Evi...etc. etc. lol So. Good.

Do we think that the Fused, and Leshwi, know what the Sibling is (and thus know what Urithiru is)? Maybe them moving on Urithiru *is* the dangerous change, particularly if they've never done it before in prior desolations. (e.g., when Sibling is active and Urithiru is also active, it is safe from the Fused; the Fused are being directed to move on Urithiru now, to prevent the awakening of the city; Leshwi finds this new strategic direction reckless and foolhardy because they are already winning the "regular" way and she remembers the past battles)? Just spitballing. I agree, though, it sounds more like something being done *to* them, by the coalition or a third party.

Good point. I had forgotten that piece of lore. I do think it's interesting that *they were* light in a prior draft and now they aren't. Maybe we caught a hint that was edited once they rememberers the Kaladin thing?

Yes, it's been continuitied out now: So he's not a Radiant...yet.

Yes. I agree with this. I think that he has to accept that you can’t protect others from their own choices, which fits with the “take responsibility” theme—other people’s choices are not your responsibility. I speculated that his fourth oath will come in an attack on Urithiru when his father or Laral goes to sacrifice themselves or put themselves in danger and he has to let them go. And he learns not just to let them, but to be at peace with that choice. i think I’d describe it as “being at peace” more than forgiveness but I think that’s 6 of one, half dozen of another probably.

I don't think it's useless. He knows she's always close because he always fights with her. But I think the whole Radiant think is probably fascinating to a Fused like Leshwi. They have never bonded a sapient spren, or interacted with one, probably. She might want to know just for herself and her curiosity about how it works. The Heralds are like her. The Radiants aren't. Alternatively, she wants to see Syl as part of a tactical strike?

@Honorless yes, I like this theory. The Unmade do seem attracted to her--she connects to them and interacts with, what, three of them in OB?? As @The Traveller suggests, I wonder if they were safekeeping a perfect gem and she released it and its powers. Like (Harry Potter spoilers): But I also have wondered if it's not that she did something particularly heinous or dangerous, rather it's the remembering of it that she feels is dangerous, which may or may not be the case at all. Veil and Radiant remember. Shallan is trying not to because she thinks it will make her unlovable. It makes me wonder if it'll actually be somewhat anticlimactic in the reveal, just to demonstrate how effed up her trauma is--that yes she killed her parents, but what precipitated her trauma was more garden-variety, run-of-the-mill childhood trauma (e.g., maybe she's adopted and her birth family were addicts) or something she did as as a child led to a childhood friend or sibling dying (e.g., an older brother saved her but died in the process), and in her grief, Pattern found her? I don't know. It's fun to speculate!

I'm excited that, in a few brief chapters, Brandon has almost told us more about Singer (and Fused!) cultures than we've had in three books thus far. Brandon also tends to tell stories of cultures with strict gendered roles and norms, which of course mirror many patriarchal civilizations. But in Fantasy, it's nice to see the "fantastical" turn toward gender and sex as well, and the Singers seems wholly uninterested in gender for the most part, trading that organizing paradigm for other hierarchies. It's refreshing. It will be interesting to see this pulled through to the differences among the Fused and among the Regal vs. old forms. How do they organize their world and their power?

I mean, I don't know if I've ever read a war book, where they're in the heat of battle, and a character stops to consider the gender of the enemy they're facing on the other side. Granted, in most of these books the warriors are men (and most of the characters are men) so maybe it's just a given. But here, given the diversity of the fighters on all sides, it wouldn't stand out at all to have anyone of any gender on the battlefield. All hands on deck, so to speak.

Good point. He probably doesn't. Nor would he care. But *we* know Leshwi is female. Alternatively, they've gathered intel on the main Fused. Regardless, it's an irrelevant detail. Let's not be all Vorin and weird about gender roles up in here. lol

I think that's the thing. He's looking for one particular Fused. He sees her. He's probably fought her in half a dozen bodies. He knows it's her. It would be unrealistic to say "oh, hmm, she has a malen body now"...why? Also, maybe he doesn't care at all what gender someone is that he's fighting? Why would he pause to even care? Why would this be at all relevant to any interaction they had? Like...I can't even envision the relevancy of the observation. The relevancy of Venli pointing it out to us is Singer/Fused world building, and that's why it's discussed. But it's not relevant to *Kal*.

And Venli makes it a point to note that this is a war based on vengeance, not justice--not anymore. I think for Leshwi to "change sides" or, rather, to envision a different ending to this war that doesn't involve genociding the humans, she'll need to not only feel connected to Kaladin in some way, but to become disillusioned by Odium's strategy. But we also have to remember that she is a cognitive shadow by Odium's power alone. If she is killed, and she has betrayed him, she will be dead-dead, I am guessing, unless she figures out some sort of workaround. Maybe Hoid will have some insights for her? ;-)

@Lightspine yes, I think it's probably that she knows that Lezian will do whatever he has to do to attract and kill Kal now, so he won't be able to "play" with her in the skies, and will probably be killed. Her reaction here seems disappointed, but not too much so. She's obviously intrigued by him, but maybe even more so by his spren. I wonder if they know she is the "Ancient Daughter". I'm sure they must, given that the Fused probably captured and tortured the sailor Honorspren in Shadesmar. It may even be that one of the technological advances they are working on is a gem that works like the Fabrial science we are seeing that can attract and capture bonded Radiant spren when in the heat of battle?

The Rhythm of Agony. Something has happened to really concern Leshwi! So the war taking a different turn. I assume that so far the war has been pretty traditional: battles over land and resources, refugees, battles in the air and on the ground. Here are my thoughts: 1. Maybe this new shift is Ba Ado Mishram's arrival/freedom (and @Chaos I literally typed "Bae" ado mishram in your honor and had to delete, so thanks for that lol). I wonder if, when she connects with singers/fused, she changes them? making even Leshwi concerned? Venli talked alot about how every form of power changes a Singer/Listener...that would change a path. 2. Alternatively, maybe the same contact who warns Navani has also warned Odium's side--they are an "interested" third party (think godspren? rogue unmade?) who is intervening in the war in a way that adds a new front and challenge? 3. odium is shifting his attack to be less traditional warfare (which privileges Leshwi's "heavenly ones") and is requiring more subterfuge and risk. she is going to be asked to infiltrate in ways that she is not comfortable with. maybe as a result of the fabrial being taken in Hearthstone? Or because Odium is using Moash to attack Urithiru from within and has infiltrated it--so they are all going to attack Urithiru directly?

I mean...are there non-problematic SA characters? Characters who are morally unambiguous? I'd like to see them. I remember making the argument that Kal is terribly self-serving and petty for his treatment of Tarah and how he acted with her, and got blasted for it. Why? Because people identify with Kal! So they try to work themselves into understanding why he does what he does. Same with Dalinar and his warmongering. Which is great! It's one of the best things about reading. But the same should be used for Shallan. And it isn't always, imho. [Side note: I could probably write an essay on how the only female main viewpoint character of SA is also often the most vocally hated because she says mean things to people's fav guy, in her quest to navigate a crappy, patriarchal, bigoted culture (and, hey, hello look around at our culture...not that different, imo). "Sure, yeah, she's been through trauma, has been sheltered and raised in a horrific environment and never been taught differently, but she also says mean things about dark-eyes" is a take, I guess. Alethi culture is horrible. And she embodies some of that. But so does Kal. So does Adolin. So does Jasnah and all the Alethi characters. I just think we should be careful in who we allow to grow and who we try to understand.]

I literally skip so many Bridge 4 and Kaladin chapters that I feel guilty and have to go back and re-read them. It's one reason I like re-reads, because then I can skip the Windrunner stuff. I don't find Kal nearly as compelling of a person or character as many do, which is fine. I have a hard time re-reading WoK because there's not enough Shallan for my liking, tbh. See--ppl are different!

@robardin I was re-reading this chapter today (because hiding from my kids + procrastination from my real job is my favorite Saturday pastime), and I was thinking of this line: in reference to the reveal about the Recreance. I think it's possible that Leshwi's psychological warfare here is to try and remove the Windrunners from the battle by exploiting this potential advantage--that the Windrunners are (a) still uncomfortable with being the OG invaders, and (b) uncomfortable killing people who act with "Honor". If they can't destroy Kal (plan A is probably Moash) then they can exploit divides in the Radiants this way (plan B). Maybe this is something that she did leading up to the Recreance as well? Maybe she insinuated herself in with another young Windrunner that time has now forgotten--a leader of men--and made them re-think their oaths and what Honor meant, exploiting their goodness and leading to the Recreance itself? I mean, speculation and not exactly the most parsimonious of interpretations, but that line directly after Dalinar's scolding seems critical?

Yes, the whole Alethi "wit" culture is really cringe-worthy. Girls like Shallan are pretty much trained up in how to be mean to each other and couch it in humor. We see Jasnah do this, and Navani (and the other Alethi royals/elites treat Evi this way too). It's very dismissive and cruel. It's also oh-so-realistic and common. We have yet to see Shallan really show vulnerability in these public moments, she often reserves that for in private, and puts on a shell of dismissive ambivalence in public. Her Shallan the Wit mask really can make her unlikeable to us, particularly when she is training that razor-sharp wit at people we like. I've always identified and enjoyed Shallan the most of almost everyone, so I acknowledge my bias, but I also feel like I've known so many girls like her...traumatized, scared, acting and pretending every second of every day in an attempt to be accepted and loved, when she's inadvertently just making people like her less. It's like a train wreck sometimes.

Nightblood has no gender--Vasher hears it as male and for instance--as Brandon says: I've always heard it as almost Jenny Slate-like. But that's just me.

I think it was more than just transactional. I think they wanted growth too. Spren are fairly constant beings and live forever, essentially. So it almost feels like an Eve allegory--like to experience the world more fully, but you put your whole people at risk of death for the first time. But I do think that the Sapient spren are at risk--or were--but if, like I intimate above, there is a propaganda war in place, a shadow movement to perhaps spare the spren? They could very well decide in a strategic neutrality. I think this might be what he is telling them. Almost a parallel Taravangian deal.

Yes, there is way more going on here than what Kal thinks is going on. And I think it's his trauma and wishful thinking here, that maybe there's something he can lash onto in this crazy depressing world. I think Leshwi's orders are pretty much "distract the Windrunner; lead him to Moash" who has been selected for a specific purpose. A targeted strike on what they see as one of the Alethi's most dangerous leaders. I hadn't thought about this, but it fits very well. It also makes me wonder if there's a whole shadow revolution/movement afoot in shadesmar that our poor Alethi warlords are clueless about. The missing honorspren, the highspren and dust bringer spren hating humans--I think people still don't realize the communities of spren that exist in shadesmar and how organized they are (how much information have they gathered in the intervening year from Wyndle and Pattern, for instance, or Ivory even?). Odium was doing big things in Shadesmar in OB--almost a coup of sorts: regulating trade, patrols, etc. Propaganda is surely being used as well. It makes me lean more toward the idea that Navani's critic is a spren, actually, and that this is all connected.

I don't see, personally, how the story has become his depression outside of the story. It's literally the reason he can't progress and get more powers--which spirals into further distance and growth he has to traverse to get there. I also take issue with the idea that we care about Kaladin because he's a mythical Knight Radiant--I think we care about Kal long before he's a Knight Radiant because he's a well written, complex character on a path to personal growth. It so happens, as @ftl mentions above, that in this fantasy context, personal growth = powers, so we are definitely spending more time tryng to figure oout how Kal will grow next. But I think, as I said on another thread, that much of the hand wringing about Kal's depression is really just because we're over analyzing 1 chapter a week, when really, Brandon got Kal to a new pivot point in his character at a relatively quick 10 chapter pace (it's just taken us a month to read). But maybe that's just me.

I wonder if it's a cognitive shadow thing, related to their Connection to the planet/region, and Alethi being the predominant language spoken there, the one that is more "connected" to Roshar at this moment? Or maybe it builds off of the abilities the "possessed" Singer bodies have, such that if you get one that spoke, Alethi, so then you can do? And that's why Venli is different--because she's not a cognitive shadow/Fused, and thus is using a form of power, not being possessed by another soul? I don't know. That's always what I've thought--that it's cognitive shadow related in some way...with that said I don't think we see many Fused speaking Alethi. Maybe Leshwi is different?

I love this interpretation. That a reader's own exhaustion is actually mirroring Kal's personal exhaustion, which is a testament to our deep empathy for this fantasy character who exists only on a page. That's a great way to put it.

If I were taking Lirin's perspective, I would probably say, "It's Kaladin that isn't putting others first--he's made this about what *he* wants and *his* sense of honor, and doesn't understand that his actions threaten the immediate interests of thousands." And...he wouldn't be wrong? Edit: this is why I think Lirin is going to help Kaladin see more nuance in his oaths, which will be necessary for him to progress.