Voidus

I think it comes down to how you define free will, in this I would say that yes someone with identical genetics and experience to you (say a clone of you set up in a virtual 'world' exactly similar to your life but with a seperate consciousness would make that same decision but you weere still 'free' to choose the others, it's almost like card tricks where the magician forces a card, you still acted with free will but there was really only one card you could have picked, thats a really bad metaphor now that it's out of my head... still good discussion Eric, very thought provoking! and oh look a giant bad-metaphor distracting from cookie!

That's why I included a 'may' I'm not sure where I fall on that debate yet but that's a discussion for another thread. Oh and also welcome to the forums BenLoc! Help yourself to some (nonspiked) welcome cookies

Thanks Zas! I was looking for it for around an hour! probably because I was convinced it said evaporated Now question time, If another of the Polestones were split in half (other than rubies or amethyst) in the manner through which Spanreeds were created is it possible for other linked reactions to occur? (I'm not sure what but I guess heat or electrical transference? maybe each of the ten surges?)

RJ first, a friend got me hooked on it in High School and forever increased my standards of fantasy novels and like most WoT fans started reading Brandons works when I heard he was finishing the series. Now of course I'm a Robdon Sanderan fan!

I'm sure I've seen an answer for that in the database somewhere but I can't find it! I think it was something along the lines of the metals evaporate (Not sure how exactly this is meant, whether they literally turn into a gaseous state and eventually are recycled into earth or whether he means they dissapear completely)

A few problems with this, 1. All Shin warriors have Oathstones. 2. There are no spren in the Shin homeland. 4. The Oathstone is fixed in size and tangibile, traits which are rarely seen in spren. 5. The Oathstone gives no displays of sentience. 6. Szeth may not even need a spren to Surgebind as we know that something different is going on with him vs. with Kaladin All that being said I think it may be possible for the Oathstone to contain a particular spren similar to how Fabrials work, I think someone mentioned that in another discussion on the Oathstone. Personally I doubt it since it would have had to be given to Szeth by the Stone Shamans so I don't think their abilities revolve much around spren. I think it more likely that it is just his Oathstone from back when he was a regular Shin warrior.

And this is what I was trying to say! have another upvote.

Also on the immortality thing large amounts of Atium were needed for just TLR to stay immortal if Harmony made enough Atium for everyone in the world to use it would drastically reduce his power, he might have been able to make everyone a double gold but once again they would quickly deplete the worlds gold supplies. Additionally Harmony is fairly non-interventional not really a reason why he couldn't do all this but perhaps an explanation as for why he didn't.

I can't remember exact wording and I'll look up the quote when I can but Allrianne actually mentions how incredibly difficult it is to manipulate Breeze as he is so aware of his own emotions and those of the people around them.

My view on long term precognition in the cosmere is that it's difficult because it raises the same problem Zane had from Vin, by looking at the future (especially the distant future) you are going to act differently even if in some minor way than if you had not seen it, this will in turn influence others who will again act in a slightly different way to if you hadn't viewed the future (even if unconsciously), you will essentially be giving everyone a split atium shadow, events might reach a similar conclusion to what you saw but not exactly the same.

From the interview DB But it's usually just been called a sequel

Just to clear things up here (as I think 213 and I are on the same page) a deterministic prophecy doesn't necessarily negate free will, it simply can predict what that free will will choose, this doesn't change your ability to chose to do it in the first place. Once again on the atium working by thoughts I seem to recall quite early on (I believe it was Final Empire) a scene where Vin gets shot with arrows from behind but dodges them because of Atium, if Atium worked by allowing her to read the actions of visible people this wouldn't be possible since she had no knowledge of them, additionally as they were bowmen they would have had to be continually adjusting their aim during that fight (and so their intention of where to shoot) if atium only predicted based on current thoughts there should have been a continuous stream of arrows rather than a single wave which preceded the actual volley. I'll try and find quotes on it. Hope this clears things up.

But keep in mind that Atium hasn't only been used in terms of close range one-on one combat it has been used in all kinds of combat situations, I find it extremely unrealistic that in none of those fights did anyone ever change their mind, additionally as you say even in one-on-one fights it is mostly action reaction, very little conscious decision making and so no decisions, if atium worked as basically a mind reading prophecy then it would actually work quite poorly in these sitations. For atium to work as we have read and yet work through something like mind-reading all combatants vs. Seers or Mistborn would have to consciously make a decision about their next action (from which the atium could predict their immediate future) but then never alter that decision. I'll get my copy of the book for some quotes but it is strongly implicated by Vin that she was only able to split her atium shadow because Zane let her see the future through his own actions, it had little to do with making a sudden decision change.

On the reflexes thing I think the best example would be Elend Duralumin-burning Atium, he wasn't compelled by reflex to act on anything, it is mentioned that they sometimes react before they even realise what they're reacting to but it's not necessarily a compulsive reflex. On the Atium mind reading, if it were as easy as changing your mind in a fight then everyone would have multiple atium shadows, at the very least it would be occasionally noticed by mistborn and Seers, and yet Zane is incredibly surprised at Vins atium shadow splitting. I would say that this is going off of what Vin is thinking when she does manage to split her atium shadow, she says she doesn't plan out her attack, simply letting her body react, note that Zane then attempts to block this which means it is obviously still able to be seen by atium, the trick is that she then observes where he is about to block, effectively letting her see her own future, which she didn't already know as she was acting instinctually, this acts like very limited electrum allowing her to see only one of her possible futures but this is enough to allow her to change it and so split her atium shadow.

The only thing that I can think of as a problem is that it might be slightly more difficult for the Kandra to ingest the internal structure and so memorize the positions of the muscles and it would probably take them a while longer because it's such a foreign structure to them but it would definitely be possible.

Stole the words out of my keyboard yeah it doesn't matter how quickly you can change your mind, realistically that's going to be happening in every fight as the combatants re-evaluate their actions based on the environment, basically in mistborn the future is deterministic, (As in atium can tell which action you will eventually decide to act on, it actually shows the future, not the future based on current actions) but Zinc would give you a lot more time to analyze a Seers actions and should give you enough time to think about what they are going to be reacting to and so change your original action which would cause a split, but simply changing your mind without any reaction from the Seer will not give you atium shadows.

This is a burden of proof fallacy, since the default assumption is that a Shard would be whole (Since something has to splinter it for it to not be whole) you need to provide proof that it has been splintered not the other way. EDIT: Darn, Ninja'd On Odium I would guess that the reason he's holding off is the rules that bind him that Honor mentioned. As for whether or not it's a coincidence, all the Shards we know of that have been Splintered we either know were splintered by Odium (Aona and Skai) or are highly suspected of being splintered by Odium (Honor) so no it's not a coincidence but the link is quite simply Odium, the others are all completely fine as far as we know, so I'm not sure where the partially/completely imprisoned comes into it?

Yeah I'm guessing that it was largely just trial and error since they knew it had to be an alloy of aluminum, after all the ministry was trying for a thousand years to find new metals, although they probably didn't always have the advantage of a nearby mistborn to test them.

Sorry for the topic necromancy here but I've been without internet for a couple months and I've had some more thoughts, topic-revival cookies for everyone! I've been thinking about warning fabrials this time, wondering if they could be used as a more accurate warning of a Highstorm but then thought they probably wouldn't have anywhere near a large-enough range which then got me thinking about the gemhearts. These offer near-limitless potential for Soulcasters so what about other types of Fabrials? we have seen Jasnah use a reasonably large gem to transform two men into flames and we have also seen augmenting fabrials capable of increasing the heat so using a gemheart it should be possible to provide enough power to create huge amounts of heat, enough to cause considerable damage to an opposing army and we know that the Alethi still win an awful lot of gemhearts, this could be used as traps on certain key plateaus to soften up the Parshendi for an Alethi charge (The tower?)

Best thing I can think of is when Spook is given pewter, he makes a reference to the fact that he's never felt this reservoir of power before or something like that, I'll try and find the quote but I would say that no Mistings cannot even sense other power wells. On the subject of testing the alloys they can't have had another mistborn trying them or they wouldn't have needed Vin to test each alloy but we also know that you wouldn't be able to tell if an alloy is right just by sensing the power, otherwise Vin wouldn't need to burn them each time. My guess is that there would just be a certain number of viable alloys to make with Aluminum and they were just going to keep trying them and slowly hone in on it, there could be some way to tell chemically whether or not a metal can be Allomantic but then Brandon said he originally tried things like color but in the end they turned out pretty random so I don't think so, could be just the subtle influence of Ruin to keep Vin alive or something but IMO it was basically just trial and error. As for Allomancers sensing Feruchemical stores, they can use it but only if it were made by them, if you non-lethally gave an allomancer feruchemy and they made a store and then removed the spike, they should still be able to burn that store because it's still allomancy that you're using.

Steel would be a bit helpful but given that it doesn't enhance your mental speed your initial reaction speed will be just as slow, the physical action (Changing where you strike) will be faster but you still have to notice where they are about to block and change your own motion, I think the best option would be a Zinc/Pewter, slightly faster speed from the pewter and more time to react from the Zinc, although actually to a double Zinc I think that something like this would become quite easy, you literally have all the time in the world to react to their block.

Keep in mind that simply changing your mind mid-swing won't split your atium shadow, you have to dedicate yourself to one course of action and observe the Seer since they are the only ones who can influence what is about to happen, then modify your action accordingly. However keep in mind that if this becomes common knowledge then it just turns into an elaborate bluffing game, it basically depends whether you have enough mental speed to exceed the enhanced mental capabilities of a Seer, otherwise you would throw one (bluff) hit, the Seer might then call your bluff and begin to react in a certain way, letting you know to strike in a different direction which they would be aware of and so block anyway, basically just comes down to who's faster but it does negate a large amount of their atium advantage.

I think Brandon may have confirmed this too but I'm not entirely sure.

With Kaladin it was understandable as he was in a combat situation, he would have shrugged off any sudden surges of energy as adrenaline, Shallan is generally not in any kind of tense situation when she takes memories, I think it would be a bit of an oversight for their to be no mention of a sudden surge of energy like what we see when Stormlight is absorbed. I think it is more likely that her Meories are just a natural talent or (more likely) akin to Kaladins riding the storm, I'll try and find the quote but I remember Brandon saying each order of the KR shared 2 powers with other orders, but each order also had something of their own, seems likely to me that that is what this is, otherwise this seems like a rather less useful Surge.

But during AoL we have no Well of Ascension and we have two types of mists so it is still a bit unbalanced. Also I've always had a problem with that quote, didn't Ruin have a Shardpool in the pits somewhere?