Voidus

Sorry I meant to put something in there about that I do agree that for smaller uses it would likely just cause minor damage that would build up over time but I think that for things like Kaladins massive reverse lashing (which I see as being nearly on par with lightning-soulcasting) that the damage would be severe and immediately noticeable, particularly if the effect of the cold is felt throughout the entire body, and not merely seeping through his skin like say a blizzard, all it takes is a couple of degrees difference in your overall body temperature to cause severe hypothermia, if his entire body dropped to a temperature low enough to cause even hairline fractures in gems then he is dead in seconds. To put it in a practical example think about it with absolutely no stormlight involved, the gems presumably do not crack even in winter when temperatures reaching freezing point so the temperature change induced by stormlight must be to at least this point, if a human body dropped in temperature that much you would be dead, even with a fairly decent resistance to cold.

Hey! welcome to the forums! As far as we know the chronological order of the books so far is: Elantris, Mistborn trilogy (Final empire, Well of Ascension, Hero of Ages), Warbreaker, TWoK, Alloy of Law (although we're not absolutely sure where Warbreaker goes since the timeline got adjusted :S) be careful of the admins, they like to spike people give people delicious waffles.

Well that's what I'm thinking it is, Szeth perceives the sky to be an object which he can lash something to, that combined with the distance makes it harder to make a precise lashing. If all he was doing when he was lashing himself to the wall was lashing in that direction then there would be no reason that lashing in the direction of the sky would be any different.

Do you mean intentional as in by BS or by Preservation? If the former I think one of the annotations could be helpful here I'll try to find it. EDIT: sorry it was in the interview database INTERVIEW: Jul, 2009 Twitter: Brandonothology collection (Verbatim) MNEHRING How did you come up with what metal would give what powers in Mistborn? BRANDON SANDERSON The metals just worked out right. [later] I see I misunderstood. The assignment of metals to powers was done mostly randomly. I started by trying to mix and match colors and hues, but that ended up not working. I also originally wanted the physical to be more common, and then move toward less common with mental and others. Hence, iron is physical, Gold is mental, [sic] Atium is temporal. The mentals don’t quite fit this, though.

Actually I seem to recall that when Szeth lashed the stone to the sky he specifically mentioned that it was more difficult than simply lashing it to an object.

I definitely think that there is some genetic component to Surgebinding, so yes this is definitely a possibility. Not sure which group he'd go into though...

Yeah that's basically what I was thinking, they could probably do a decent job of battlefield surgery, but they won't be regrowing limbs anymore, I think they could do things like soulcasting some air into muscle or something to close the wounds over and prevent blood loss (or soulcast the blood I suppose) but yeah they'd still need surgery afterwards

Yeah, I think that the spike would have to have a pretty strong hemalurgic charge on it for someone to be able to be influenced by Ruin, I can't remember the exact quote but the whole reason that ruin can talk to people who have been spike is that splicing a piece of sDNA into yourself leaves a vulnerability, the more you do this, the more vulnerable you are to manipulation, which is why Ruin could only talk to Vin but could fully control the Koloss and Inquisitors, I don't think that just sharing an earring would count, otherwise I'm sure that half the nobility would be under Ruins control (Think about how many of their earrings would be family heirlooms)

I'm pretty sure it was mentioned that they only crack when used to soulcast something large, not necessarily after a lot of use, I'll try and find some references for this. On Kaladin though, I think that if he was using enough stormlight that it would crack a gem from the cold then the temperature would be far below freezing, unless the regenerative properties he gains are far better than I initially assumed I think he would still be dead, the human body is mostly water after all, the rapid freezing that all his cells would undergo would almost certainly destroy the cell membranes. In addition, Jasnah was wearing the soulcaster so being in that close proximity to something so cold, so often would probably cause some severe frostbite as she doesn't gain any of the physical enhancements. Definitely agree with you here though, very good point but I still think that the temperatures needed to cause any fractures are still extreme, I'll have to do some research as that really isn't my area of expertise Seconded XD

I don't think it's likely that that is all regrowth is but I definitely think that soulcasting could be used to similar effect. But you'd have to be exceptionally good at soulcasting organics and be a surgeon to be able to do so, but it would definitely work in a similar way.

Yeah I think it was probably something like the way that it is used during AoL, used but not really understood. Although actually, weren't all of those spikes from the dead inquisitors or something? Which would mean that they really have no idea in AoL, I think then that pre-ascension people would have had to know a bit more about it, but definitely not enough to make hemalurgic constructs like the Koloss or Kandra. (Do we have a term for those yet? if not I petition for hemalurgic constructs )

I don't know about being the most well known but it was certainly known.

Depends on the wound I think, she wouldn't exactly be able to Aes-sedai heal but I can see her closing wounds over (sinew is another of the essences after all)

Sorry, it's taking me a while to read through all of the posts, I can see what you are saying but I still see no reason to believe that we should think they are not nahel-bond spren, it seems quite likely that Jasnah has never encountered these before, if they were simply a part of gaining access to Shadesmar then even if she couldn't see them she wouldn't be so surprised that Shallan saw them, also she said "They are related to what you do." I think she probably would have used an inclusive word if it was related to her as well, it also seems quite obvious that from hearing about Shallan seeing them that she deduced that they were not from the same order. Which I still have a few problems with, if the temperature change were sufficient enough to fracture gemstones then there is absolutely no way a human could withstand that without a lot of physical alteration. Also as you pointed out in that thread, Shallan felt the same sensation of cold so she obviously held the stormlight at some point which means she needed to gain it which means (if inhaling is the only method of drawing stormlight) she needed to inhale, which she didn't. I know many people who would like to dispute you on that and even if theology doesn't need to be logical then it still doesn't explain away why Windrunners are the only ones who need to inhale and the incredible coincidence of that being their body focus, given the range of possible actions that could possibly be used to draw stormlight (near-infinite) I find it highly improbable that Vorin theologians came up with the exact same body focus for the one order of KR that needed it without any influence.

Can't find any quotes on this and I can't remember anything like that, I might just not have read it but I'd be very interested to see that.

I'm not sure what you meant in that (I'm assuming you're referencing the OP) sorry I just seem to have difficulty following the train of thoughts in your posts but you actually don't seem to give any evidence as to why Shallan had to tell a truth, if we discount the honesty part from the attributes then I can see no link between creativity and truth-telling in fact they are almost opposites, deceit involves creativity, telling the truth (being honest) does not and if we also discount the body focus then I can see no link at all. I still don't quite get what you mean about the body focus not being able to be used as a clue, Kaladin and Szeth both very obviously have to inhale to gain access to stormlight, if the body focus was irrelevant then we need to explain: 1. Why don't other surgebinders (Jasnah, Shallan) need to do so. 2. Why this concept appears in Vorin theology, it seems a bit of a stretch for only one order to need to do something to gain access to stormlight and that order also needs to do something in line with their body focus to do so. The only explanation I can see is that either this came into Vorin theology as a remembered fact about the KR which would still mean that each order did have something to do with the associated body focus, or else they just made it up and by some amazing coincidence they got it spot on with the windrunners and no one else. I do agree that some of them are a bit weird and it's difficult to see how something like hair or oil could be used to access stormlight but given my theory on Shallans being the soul and the truthspren asking for a truth for her to access it, that it doesn't have to be an obvious connection. EDIT: Also I just remembered about this quote. So it's obviously at least related somehow, not just some Vorin symbology

Yeah I'd have to go with stormriding as being the Windrunners 'something of their own' either that or yeah something we just haven't seen, maybe some combination of atmospheric pressure and gravity? Trying to think of a useful ability that could come out from that but I can't really think of anything, ideas anyone?

Actually we do know that there are a round 30 or 10 different abilities on Roshar depending on how you count them, I would take this to mean that they have the same 10 surges but granted by 3 different systems as this seems most logical, it would seem to me that Szeth probably uses the third as yet unknown system (Surgebinding, Voidbing, ?????) and is given the same surges as a windrunner but granted in a different way. Yeah sorry about that, I know i've read that but I keep referencing the original that I have But no reason to know one way or another, also I have seen plenty of speculation that she might be in other orders, which I mention in the next paragraph so I wouldn't say that it is the result of universal consensus I have absolutely no idea what you mean by this... I'm not saying that some part of Kaladin is better at inhaling or anything and that is why he is a windrunner which is what you seem to be talking about. It's just about how you access stormlight, Kaladin inhales to draw stormlight into his body. Jasnah has been noted to take a deep breath before which has been speculated as meaning she draws by exhaling although that's a bit of a stretch. We know that Shallan accesses her powers by telling a personal truth or in other words showing a part of her soul, this seems like pretty good evidence for me as I can't find anything at all in the books that might reference her drawing through blood somehow.Edit: On all this being discussed already, I do know that and I tried to condense most of what has already been speculated into one post but I think it's better for it to have its own thread so that other threads aren't all taken off on tangents.

The only problem with that is that when a windrunner uses their abilities to make something cling to a rock, it would not come unstuck except under extreme strength or when the stormlight runs out, also I think that if the Plate used abilities like that they would run through stormlight so quickly that they could only be used for an hour or so at a time.

Yeah, but Kaladin didn't lash an inhalation as his first act as a windrunner so I think it is just likely coincidence. The first thing she soulcast had to be one of the ten essences as they are the easiest and a garnet is simply what she had on hand, I don't think that that is enough to prove which order she belongs to. At the same time that does seem like the kind of foreshadowing that Brandon usually puts in to give us hints so I'm still completely unsure

I definitely agree that those are the qualities she seems to display more, but in terms of body focus I just can't see how blood works for her, the soul seems to me to be much more likely given the truthspren. (But then again Truthspren seems like it would be more likely to bond with someone honest) I alternate between those two a lot.

Good point on the spikes, I think the problem is that they are so rarely seen outside of a body that we can't tell if it's the spikes being invested or that they are piercing the body that makes them difficult. Consider allomancy again as an example then, a misting who is burning a metal should be invested to the same extent as a Surgebinder, particularly if it is an internal metal, and yet Nicrosil can affect them, so it is definitely possible that they could affect each other.

I thought I'd just create a thread for this since I've seen a lot of theorising going on about it in other threads. Right that being said lets get down to some theorizing. We know for certain of three Surgebinders (I'm leaving Szeth out of this because we just have no idea what's going on there) 1. Kaladin - Windrunner. 2. Jasnah - Unknown order, one of her surges is transformation (speculated that her order is associated with Smokestone/Exhalation/Learned/Giving) 3. Shallan - Unknown order, one of her surges is also transformation. (Usually speculated that her order is associated with Garnet, Blood, Creative/Honest) So the only other alternative I see for Jasnah is Wise/Careful but that has a body focus of oil which I can't find any clues on, however we do see mention of her taking a breath before soulcasting so Exhalation seems likely. On Shallan I am torn between the Creative/Honest because those attributes seem to fit better and Brave/Obedient because that would give her a focus of the Soul and we know that she has thus far accessed her powers through telling truths (Revealing part of her soul) also if Jasnah is indeed Learned/Giving that would make all three (Kaladin, Jasnah and Shallan) the first three in the Ars Arcanum and this would also mean that if we DO count Szeth as a Surgebinder then the people controlling the first three sets are mentioned in order of appearance (Szeth, Jasnah (brief mention in the prologue) then Kaladin, and then Shallan. So opinions on Shallan and Jasnahs orders? and anyone else you think might be a Surgebinder?

Yeah I think it's basically to do with the rate of consumption, soulcasting uses a lot more than stormlight to create a useful effect. If a windrunner had access to that amount of stormlight I can easily conceive them becoming a living siege weapon, triple-lash a few giant boulders towards the enemy army and you will do a LOT more damage than just turning a few people to smoke.

Absolutely agreed, especially that part about Feruchemy, most posts I've seen talk about ruining an attribute to store it and then somehow preservation when tapping, but it seems much more likely to be the other way around, preseving an attribute for later use, and slowly ruining you store.