ILuvHats

Hoid speculation time! It's long been apparent that Hoid is collecting magic systems (he has after all obtained Breaths, lerasium, a nahel bond, and attempted to solve the mystery that is Sel and the Dor). One of the most popular theories about him is that he's gaining access to these magic systems in order to eventually obtain the investiture from each of the shards. Assuming this to be the case, Hoid can check two more shards off the list now that he's bonded a Cryptic, since all of the True Spren are comprised of a combination of Honor and Cultivation's investiture. But of course, there's yet another shard in the Rosharan system. He still needs to get Odium's magic. So rather than work to get his spren off-planet, I think Hoid's next step is to gain access to Odium's investiture. And what's the easiest solution we know of to do this? Sja-anat. Going forward, I think Hoid is going to be very interested in Renarin, and there will likely be a lot more interaction between them. Note that I don't think Hoid is necessarily aware of Sja-anat's capabilities at the moment. But, thanks to his ability to tap Fortune, he doesn't need to know about her in order to pursue her as a means to an end. I forget the exact quote, but if I recall correctly, Hoid mentions that he doesn't necessarily know why he has to be at certain places at certain times, but only that doing so will forward his goals. So it could easily be the case that his foresight leads him to Renarin and/or Shallan (since she's investigating Sja-anat). Or possibly both of them at the same time, if the speculation proves to be true that Renarin and Shallan will make up the Secondary arc in RoW, and that that arc is centered around the Ghostbloods and Sja-anat.

Tien was a budding Lighweaver.

I mean, the storm wall spreads across the entirety of Roshar from north to south. Odium doesn't have to send it to specific places, because it literally passes over every place during its cycle around the planet. As Dreamer mentioned, though, he can control a lot of other aspects of it.

In DND terms, I’d call Hoid true neutral. Morality-wise, he’s certainly ruthless. We have his quote about watching Roshar burn to the ground as well as him betraying Shai. However, he’s also been willing to help Kaladin and Shai from time to time as well as trying to raise spirits in Kholinar during the siege. The caveat to his good deeds is that there’s only so far he’s willing to go. He’s only willing to be altruistic as long as he doesn’t risk himself or his plans. When it comes to Hoid as chaotic vs lawful, I think it’s obvious he has little respect for laws and order. He’s a trickster, a liar, a thief. Yet, IMO he’s also too directed to be considered chaotic. He has very specific motives with a definitive goal in mind, and doesn’t seem to act in a random manner. So that’s my reasoning for placing Hoid smack dab in the center of the moral compass.

Ah. If that was your underlying assumption, then that makes total sense. I just get a little miffed when people bring up famine in particular as a doomsday scenario. The mindset that we’ll die because overpopulation will drive us all to starvation is somewhat outdated. Of course, famine as an outgrowth of the energy crisis is totally to be expected. Small distinction, but in my mind significant. Anyways, sorry for jumping on you like that. Seems like we’re on the same page after all.

Innovation and technology progress quickest under adversity external to nations as a whole, such as war. Individually, adversity tends to impede growth since people who are simply struggling to survive, to find enough food to eat, to find shelter, lack the time necessary for innovation. Meanwhile, a total lack of threats to people as a whole encourages stagnation, even if everyone’s individual basic needs are met. Even though leisure time is no longer an issue, there is no longer a driving force for development. There will be progress, and more than in the first scenario, but it will be slower than it could be. Times during which nations as a whole are threatened, such as war, tend to foster the greatest technological and industrial growth. Internal unity is encouraged, so basic necessities are more widely distributed so that individuals can contribute to countering the external threat. Meanwhile, there’s also a lot of incentive to develop new technologies that can address the issue or threat. Keeping this in mind, here are my thoughts on some of the most significant civilizations/worlds. Scadrial: The Elendel Basin probably progressed a lot in the years immediately after the catacendre. The lush and hospitable environment alleviated any lack of basic needs, but the reduced population and lack of infrastructure fostered technological growth. At some point, though, civilization became comfortable and began to lack motivation for growth, so innovation began to decline. Southern Scadrial, on the other hand, was met with a hostile environment. Thanks to Kelsier’s intervention, they were eventually able to reach a point where total destruction was no longer inevitable, and basic needs were met. Yet, the ever-present threat of dying to cold combined with conflicts between civilizations and whatever/whoever the Deniers of Masks are encouraged technological innovation until current day Scadrial. Going forward, the North is going to experience a technological boom thanks to trading with the South, and the increasing threat of Trell will encourage the world as a whole to step up industrialization and innovation. Roshar: Already in the throes of a fabrial revolution, the true desolation will be met with unprecedented growth. With humanity’s destruction at the doorstep, social traditions that inhibit growth, such as Vorin gender divisions, will collapse. In addition, there’s a new influx of knowledge about spren (integral to fabrials) with the resurgence of the Radiants. Roshar about to go from just beginning an industrial revolution to Cold War era technology in a matter of decades. The gap between books 5 and 6 in particular may be a renaissance period. Hypothetically, if Odium’s forces are removed for that period, yet it’s widely known that they will soon return, people will do everything they can to prepare for that inevitability, including a lot of technological growth. Sel, Elantris: Although they were definitely post-scarcity pre-Reod era, there were some limiting factors in their technological/magical growth. Number one, the population of Elantrians is very low compared to other civilizations, and their geographic influence is also limited. Number two, a post scarcity civilization lacks incentives for change. A lot of innovation will occur due to a surplus of leisure time, but without urgency for growth or the ideological diversity that conflict encourages, innovation will stagnate to an extent. Going forward, considering a new war with the Fjordell empire, big tech/magic boom. I won’t disagree with your nihilistic belief, since we could all easily die in a few centuries. However, at this point in time the two methods of self-destruction you mentioned don’t look terribly likely. If a nuclear war were going to happen, the Cold War would have been a prime time. As it is, tensions have eased to an extent, and we can be hopeful that nuclear disarmament could be achieved. We’re not out of the blue yet, but it’s hardly the most likely end-of-world scenario considering our current state. I’ll also disagree that famine is likely. Unless by famine you meant resource depletion in general, and not just lack of food. Famine used to be a huge potential issue, but thanks to Borlaug’s Green Revolution and declining birth rates in developed countries, the situation is no longer as dire. And we also aren’t too likely to outpace food production, since the world population is projected to plateau around 2100 with a population of 11 billion. Currently, I believe the most widely theorized means of humanity’s destruction are global warming/pollution and depletion of energy production as oil reserves run out. As resources grow scarcer, a nuclear war could occur as a result of rising tensions, but in such a scenario, I’d say the lack of resources is the underlying cause of destruction as opposed to the war.

Maybe. Its hard to say how much of his behavior is due to personality versus intelligence. In my experience, a lot of what we think of as intelligence is based purely on how people perceive us, so in practicality there's little difference between somebody with the ability to be quick-witted but refrains from doing so due to a calm nature, and somebody who can't follow a conversation quick enough to be witty. And btw, I realize there are definitely many types of intelligence, but in this case, when I say intelligence I mean sharp, quick-witted, or clever, particularly as a conversationalist.

Mmmmmmmm. I'd actually say the reverse is true in Adolin's case. Especially using the word "sharp" specifically, which implies an ability to quickly learn and assess as opposed to a scholar's ability to analyze and study. Adolin's more educated, sure, but if Kaladin's verbal sparring with Shallan is any indicator, I'd say Kaladin is the more clever of the two. Adolin's not dumb of course, but I don't think he has the same natural ability to be witty, which ties back to intelligence quite a bit.

I honestly don't remember. I've known about the cosmere so long that I don't remember what it was like to not know about the cosmere. And it gets very muddy in my mind how much I caught onto before joining the shard.

I put voidbinder in the polls because I thought the OP was working under the theory that the Fused aren’t using voidbinding, and in that case I’d choose voidbinding just so I could learn about it. Choosing between having radiant powers or fused, I’d much rather have radiant. Edgedancers for life.

Excited to see another update! Keep them coming; I hope to see where this world goes. I do have a few questions though. Can you go more in-depth about the Scecerlon? They sound interesting, but you didn't talk much about them. My impression is that they're magical automatons created by reanimating bodies, kind of like the Lifeless from Warbreaker. But I'm wondering if you can provide more info on how they're controlled, what they can do, how they figure into the world, that kind of stuff. They also sound hard to make, like you need to meticulously place all the components in the body in the right place. Does that sound right? Also, I'm confused how the non primary gems and non-gem materials fall into the magic system. It sounds like they aren't the kind of things that mages or Scelsi use, so are they only used for creating Scecerlon? If so, why can't they see other applications?

How you defeat them depends on what the Sleepless is doing. If they're just gathering information and remain spread out among their hordelings, eradicating them is virtually impossible. On the other hand, if their objective requires social interaction, they'll need to form a body for periods of time. And if you know what to look for, it's not that hard to distinguish Sleepless from humans. If you actually find them, bring explosives, which I'm sure will be available at that time, whether they're all ettmetal-based or the current technologies include traditional incendiaries as well. It would be damnation difficult to surprise the Sleepless, but it's not out of the question. Especially if Kandra help in the investigation.

Actually, WoK is almost 400k words. A 250k book would be closer to Mistborn Era 1 or Warbreaker length.

Sounds like grimdarks not your thing. In that case, Abercrombie’s probably not for you. I can usually take grimdark tales in stride, but the ending of the First Law Trilogy left me emotionally shattered. I was left so upset I seriously thought I’d never pick up another book of his again. What he did was so brilliant in hindsight, but I mean it absolutely wrecked me. He’s so, so good at writing characters, one of the best I’ve seen, and you root for them. You want them to get their happy endings, and then... I’m struggling to put it into words without spoilers, so I am going to mention spoilers in the spoiler tag. I won’t mention any characters by name, or even the specific circumstances, but you can figure it out if you start reading. The ending is the most depressing combination of fatalism and nihilism I can imagine. It leaves you drained and hopeless. The poetic symmetry of the beginning and the ending reveal that nothing ever changes. Despite everything that did change, it was all superficial, just a front, a puppet show. In reality, violence, manipulation, and ruthlessness dominate this world, and there is no escaping it. Well, I’m depressed now. But despite how terrible it all sounds, I still found myself coming back to Abercrombie’s works, and that’s the sheer genius of it all. He can wreck you as a reader, and you’ll still find yourself crawling right back to his books, compelled to for reasons you don’t even understand. He brings out the masochist in everyone. Anywho, I’m gonna shut up now and go cry myself to sleep.

Ooh! That’s near the top of my TBR! I’ve heard great things about it. What’d you think of it?

Then look no further. Here’s my list of favorite fantasy books/series, with commentary for funsies. Most of them are modern works; I have a separate list for series dating from Wheel of Time back through the late 1900s. The Kingkiller Chronicles by Patrick Rothfuss (It’s Kingkiller. Need I say more? A modern staple of fantasy with some gorgeous prose) The Lightbringer Series by Brent Weeks (Eeeeeeeeeh! Brent Weeks is my favorite author second only to Brandon. The stories they both tell tend to be loved by the same kind of people, so if you like one, chances are you’ll like the other) The First Law Trilogy by Joe Abercrombie (be warned it’s grim dark. But, it’s the best grimdark out there, even better than ASOIAF in my opinion) The Powder Mage Trilogy by Brent Weeks (this guy was a student of Brandon’s at BYU) The Broken Earth Trilogy by N. K. Jemisin (Absolutely brilliant. Every single book in the series won the Hugo for best novel, making Jemisin the first to win the award 3 years consecutively. The things she can do with words and narrative...) The Rage of Dragons by Evan Winters (fantastic debut novel. Winters is one to watch out for in coming years)

What can I say, definitions are weird in the US, especially politically charged ones (even if said terms should be bipartisan or even better not even a political debate). My understanding, which could be wrong, is somebody at some point some one decided on the following definition for racism: racism is systemic prejudice and/or denial of equal rights and opportunities based on ethnicity. Key word is systemic. According to this definition, someone can only be considered racist if they are a member of the predominant ethnicity in a nation, either numbers-wise or political power-wise. Basically, in the case of America, you only be considered racist if you’re Caucasian. You can be prejudiced based on skin-color if you’re African-American, Hispanic, Asian, or whatever, but you can’t be racist. Obviously, this definition is divisive. The democratic part and progressives in general have embraced this definition. Meanwhile, conservatives mostly gone to the definition that racism is any prejudice based on skin color. I’m not here to say which definition is correct, but as you can imagine, there’s a lot of tension and confusion based on misunderstanding people who use a different definition for racism. Hopefully this brief tangent on the baffling nature of American politics was helpful . Now to actually contribute to the thread. @bxcnch, your breakdown is really good, and I generally agree. As you said, there are varying degrees of racism. However, I disagree that if someone is open to being wrong about their racist beliefs that they aren’t racist. Yes, the most severe racists hold to their beliefs unwaveringly, even when faced with evidence. But is also easy for someone to be mildly racist. There are plenty of people who don’t think they are racist, but have slightly racist tendencies. And now I have to leave be back to discuss more later.

This seems dangerous. In other words, just my kind of fun. @Quantus do you have plans to make the setup portable? I don't know how much the batteries would weigh, but they could probably be mounted on your back, right?

My opinion’s not unrelated to the OP, but it’s a bit out there. Might as well take the opportunity to share it though. If I could make a change to the system, I’d allow users to modify their ability both to see their own reputation and the number of upvotes they get on posts. It would be nice to be able to see others’ upvotes but not my own. I’m an approval-seeker, so my relationship with the upvote system is kind of toxic. I have an unfortunate tendency to contribute to threads motivated by reputation mining rather than wanting to genuinely contribute to the discussion. It’s usually subconscious, but if I take a step back and look at my reasoning, it makes me sick. Eliminating the system just for myself would help, and hopefully I’d get to a point where I would be more genuinely contribute to discussions. Of course, I’m definitely in the minority here, and the work needed to implement such a feature probably wouldn’t be worth it for the community as a large. Still, it’s nice to imagine.

Oh, for sure. It makes sense to hold back a bit if you’re not settled on one idea. If you ever want more specific feedback, feel free to PM me.

Reverse chronological flashbacks would be difficult to pull off. Communicating that they are progressively getting further and further into the past wouldn't be a problem; the flashback chapters could be labeled with either the date or how long ago they occurred. The readers would catch on pretty quickly that they're diving deeper and deeper into the past. The problem arises writing the perspectives of DUO. If the flashbacks are comprised of their POVs, then you'll need to actively censor any of their thoughts about Plot B and C while you're building up to Plot A. And again with plot B. I'm sure you're aware this is very difficult since it tends to come off as artificial to the readers. Whether or not you can pull it off depends on your skill as a writer. If you think you can do it, go for it. One alternative is to use flashback POVs of people who interact with DUO in varying fashions, but don't necessarily know all their plans. In this case, it would probably be a good idea to connect all the people who have flashback POVs in some way. Using random people may or may not work, but I'd favor a more interconnected web of POVs. I don't know anything about the plot (since you're being intentionally vague ), but here's a few ideas. The flashback POVs are all a part of a series of interconnected investigations in DUO. Periodically, people find hints of them, and possibly inspired by past investigations, try to find out more. However, each time someone gets too close or discovers too much, they're eliminated. If DUO is heading an organization, or hires/works with various people to accomplish their plans, the POVs could be accomplices who know about the plots to varying degrees. Again, for all I know these ideas are completely incompatible with what you have planned. But maybe they'll inspire some other ideas? (shrug)

I forgot about that. Good point.

Agree to disagree. The only thing we know with reasonable certainty is that Ishar organized the orders. We don’t know how the oaths were introduced into surgebinding, only that they didn’t exist during during at least part of Nohadon’s life. So yes, there are a lot of other options for what could have happened. Again, my ideas are pure speculation, and you’re right that I forgot to account for Nohadon. But I wasn’t trying to say I was definitively right, but rather that those are my beliefs and that the OP fits into my head canon. And my beliefs are as valid as yours. I didn’t mean to come across as trying to convince you that you were definitively wrong in my first post. I was just to get you to consider the possibility of legitimacy. If we want to go meta, I don’t think Brandon would include the divine attributes in the Ars Arcanum if they were so obscured by social customs and traditions as to have no particular connection to anything. Because maybe I’m wrong, but that’s what I think you’re saying. That they are purely social constructs with barely any connection to the herald’s actual personalities.

That's what I meant when I said the oaths weren't inherent to the magic system. I agree that they were added later, likely as a means to keep the surgebinders in check and to prevent a catastrophe like Ashyn from occurring again. In the end, we'll probably have to agree to disagree since this is all speculation. But let me run you through my thought process. 1. The heralds notice all these surgebinders popping up, and fear Roshar will meet the same fate as Ashyn. 2. Ishar comes up with the idea to regulate the surgebinders by creating orders based around oaths. 3. The oaths are devised by the heralds, with each one developing the oaths for one order, making ten orders in total. 4. Ishar, possibly with the help of Honor and/or other heralds, uses spiritual shenanigans to incorporate the oaths into the magic system. Basically, I think the heralds themselves came up with the oaths based on their ideas and perceptions of how to pursue honor. While the attributes were later attached to the heralds, they are representations (albeit oversimplified ones) of what the heralds thought were important. This is reflected in the orders themselves. Maybe I'm wrong, but hopefully you have a clearer understanding of why I think the OP is legitimate.