Jace21

The Sunmaker was Alethi, not Shin. That said I still think he is the Author. He certainly would have been considered a heretic during his time and I have a rough theory that his views on future-sight in Vorinism are due to a supernatural experience of his own.

He's probably just around doing Ardent stuff. We know Dalinar's warcamp moved to Urithiru and the warcamp is Zahel's last known location. I dont think he has much that much useful intel to be honest. He is not old enough to have experienced surge usage or a desolation when he last visited Roshar so the most he could share would be world hopping. Not much use in their present situation.

There were thousands of people on that plateau when Shallan activated the Oathgate. Considering we know at least some people in the armies are non-alethi it doesnt seem too hard to believe he was there. As to his being lighteyes, he could have been a generic light eyed archer that didnt need to speak much, used the eye drops to change his eye colour or any number of things to remain unobtrusive. And I imagine a fair few soldiers are quite heavily scarred. That said it would be much cooler if he had some kind of light weaving fabrial.

The blade wouldnt be of any help in developing fabrials surely? Have I missed something? None of the abilities of any honorblade relate to fabrials. Sure a fabrial may be able to produce similar effects but the mecanism is competely different.

I always assumed they didn't worldhop because they didn't want to, not because they can't. I am of the opinion that tranportation (possibly only is used with transfornation) does allow you to world hop, but as has been stated it would require a working spren bond and stromlight. I agree with Yata that most spheres would not last long enough to be useable for the return journey. Even so there should have been at least one whole order of KR (Elsecallers and maybe Willshapers) capable of world hopping. However we know it is very difficult for the spren of KR to leave the planet. We also are told by Syl in WoK that when she went to get the poisonous leaf for Kaladin that she almost becamse mindless again because of the distance. So if the KR left by themselves, would it leave their Spren mindless? Could they do that to a friend? When you then factor in that the KR were the "watchers at the rim" and were supposed to prepare for and guard against desolations, I expect they were too focussed on Roshar to worry much about visiting other worlds. So I expect there were a few worldhopping KR but certainly not enough to leave a lasting impression on the worlds they visited.

Looking at it you're right, the time doesn't add up. I'd never really paid much attention to the "all these centuries" comment from Kalak before. I personally would use "all these years" instead of "decades" and not think much of it, so it is possible that Kalak just uses the 2 synonymously.

Yeah I saw that WoB for the first time a few days ago, I need to move the humans arrival. It still bugs me, it's the first time I've ever heard a WoB that I thought made no sense. But we work with what we're given. As to the rest maybe it was millenia to the Rosharans but maybe the Heralds only really live/age for their years on Roshar and not in Damnation?

Has someone recently been watching Suits? But I could probably get behind those actually. Not 100% sold on David Costabile as Sadeas but it could work.

There is an Epigraph in WoR from the diagram that talks about how "The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack". I always took this go imply that to certain beings or powers it was visible that Taln was close to cracking some time before he did. After all, "soon" could easily refer to a couple of decades when compared to 4500 years. It is very possible Odium went easy on Taln but I also prefer to think he was just a badass who tanked all Odiums efforts for over 4 millenium.

I doubt all the human arrived together, the Shin are consistently described as being physically different to the rest of Roshar. So are the Iriali for that matter. It strikes me as unlikely that these two groups arrived together, with the rest of the humans as well? Possible but I doubt it. All we know about the Oathpact is that it was between the Heralds and Honour and is not directly responsible for binding Odium, though it is somewhat related. So the Oathpact actually does not involve Odium directly. As for it being so the Heralds could fight Odium, we do not even know if the Heralds are originally from Roshar. We really have too little information to say that was the purpose of the Oathpact. To the best of my knowledge your assumption thst the Oathpact is due to Odium is just that, an assumption. It always seemed more likely to me that the Heralds agreed to the Oathpact before they knew it would involve an endless cycle of pain, torture and death. In my opinion the Oathpact was for some other reason, agreed between Honour and the Heralds which then had the side effect of binding Odium to he system once he arrived and keeping the Heralds trapped to the cycle of desolations.

I suppose the other powerful Spren have effects other than just being spren. Stormfather has the highstorms, Nightwatcher has the old magic and the Unmade have the Thrill, Deathrattles etc. If there is still 1 uncorrupted Dawsinger as I think, this WoB could be saying it has a larger effect that was effecting Tien. Makes sense it would be positive based on the description of both Tien and Dawnsingers.

I am sure we've had one of these threads before... Anyway, Dafne Keen as lift.

I think its worth noting that we have technically never seen Shallan pre-oaths since she began swearing them as a small child. She may well have been Creative/Honest before attracting Pattern. Her honesty in the books is debatable but she was actually only re-swearing oaths, Pattern had been bonded long before.

I think that was originally one of mine actually, here is the link to the original thread. Its been expanded on a bit since then to address the listener songs and to include the new information from Oathbringer (mainly by Calderis as I don't post much) but most of the info is there. To go back to the OP, I am fascinated to know what the voice Syl remembers was but I don't think it was Tien. She seems to know enough about Kals family to have referenced him by name and he never really shows any abilities that cant be more easily explained. I feel it is more likely to involve Cultivation somehow.

I agree the Oathpact isn't directly responsible but there is WoB that says it has something to do with it if I remember correctly. Either way you're right, the pre-Odium nature of the Oathpact is an assumption on my part, I'll move it to unknown. @Spicker It is a bit confusing. In book when they say the Last Desolation they are normally referring to Aharietiam, the desolation that had just ended in the prelude to WoK. This is when the Heralds said there would be no more Desolations. The True Desolation is then the one that began when the Everstorm was summoned at the end of WoR.

We know the oathpact was not created to bind Odium, it's more of a side effect. I always assumed from this that the Oathpact was made pre-Odium amd he came and got caught in it after. I could be wrong though. Good point, I'll add it in, I think it will have been once Honour arrived originally since the Stormfather merged with his cognitive shadow more recently.

Greetings Everyone! I dont post very often and have only 1 theory to my name (about the unmade and dawnsingers) so you may not have seen me around. I am trying to expand on that idea and solidify a theory of what happened in Roshar's earlier history and why. Now since my last theory I have reread the Stormlight archive twice and the rest of the cosmere once to brush up on my realmatic knowledge. That said, despite having lurked here for years I still miss a lot of things and there are no doubt a lot of WoBs that I don't know. With that in mind I want to try and create a kind of database of what we already know about Roshar's early History, both to see if there is anything I am missing and to provide a resource for others in their owm theory crafting as we prepare for Oathbringer. Well here goes: Pre-Honour/Cultivation - Highstorms already exist - Some spren (of Adonalsium) already existed - As per the previous 2 points, the Stormfather / Rider of Storms already existed - Parshendi already inhabit Roshar - There were no humans on Roshar - None of the "normal" species (horses, chickens etc) existed on Roshar - Greatshells etc, already existed - Humanity are native/ arrive Post- Honour & Cultivation / Pre-Odium - Honour & Cultivation Invest - The Heralds arrive/are created Post-Odium / Pre - Aharietiam "Last Desolation" - Spren "abandon" the listeners - Voidbringers & Unmade are created/formed - The desolations begin - Some desolations are fought pre-KR - Spren begin bonding with humans creating Surgebinders - Knights Radiant are formed - Urithiru was built - The Oathgates were built - Way of Kings was written - Stormseat Destroyed - After a desolation 9 Heralds abandon their duty and leave Taln alone to uphold the oathpact. Post-Aharietiam "Last Desolation" - The Recreance - The Splintering of Honour - Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow merges with the Stormfather - The Hierocracy - Oathgates Locked - The Scouring of Aimia - Words of Radiance is written Unknown - The Iriali arrive on Roshar - The Shin arrive on Roshar - The Oathpact is formed - Soft-skinned animals are brought to Roshar - Silver Kingdoms are founded The above is in sections as you can see, but no particular order within those sections. I have tried to innclude only things that have been either confirmed or heavily implied. If there is anything that you think needs adding or if something needs to be moved to a different section please let me know, I think this sould be a useful resource. The Stormlight Archive more than any other Cosmere series seems to have a long history still intricately linked to the present story and lots of current theories. Thanks!

Exactly its a cycle that essentially results in a potentially unlimited supply of the feruchemical attribute. The main exception being Atium as eventually you will reach an upper limit where you cant compound enough to compensate for your spiritual age trying to overwrite the age your Feruchemy has made you. Difficult to say with Aluminium amd Duralumin as we havent had many exampes of what you can do with Connection or Identity. There is some debate as to what you get if you compound copper but I dont think we actually know. Tin could be useful, it might be handy to hyper-enhance 1 or more of your senses sometimes.

Voidspren is the term used in the books, by Pattern and Shallan I believe. Desolationspren is a term we made up on the forum I think as it isnt in the books. I prefer Voidspren personally, I think it is more accurate, but either work.

As far as I know the only confirmed facts about Bondsmith Spren is that they are Unique and Powerful, at least moreso than regular spren. The only options I can think of given in the text would be: Stormfather - Confirmed Bondsmith Spren. Pre-dates the arrival of the shards. Was able to bond before he merged with Tanavasts cognitive shadow. Nightwatcher - Not confirmed but likely as she is Cultivations equivalent to the Stormfather. Not much mire information is known. An Unmade - Possible I guess but in my opinion extremely unlikely. I have never understood the idea that the 3rd Bondsmith spren would be a splinter of Odium. I get that there are 3 shards and 3 bondsmiths but why would a splinter of Odium be involved in a magic system of Honour/Cultivation? A Dawnsinger - My preferred theory. We know Roshar is 10-centric so it is very possoble there were 10 dawnsingers. If 9 were corrupted and became the unmade (only a theory but one I subscribe to) this would leave 1 to be the last bondsmith Spren. Described as powerful friendly spren that helped humanity, a dawnsinger would seem to fit the requirements. Worth noting is that as a probable Adonalsium-spren, a dawnsinger would contain parts of all shards, including equal parts of Cultivation and Honour, possibly being the balance between the Stormfather amd Nightwatcher, which are primarliy of 1 of the 2 shards. Cusicesh - was mentioned earlier in the thread and I am now thinking Cusicesh = Last Dawnsinger is a real possibility. Cusicesh follows a strict pattern and doesnt seem fully sentient, a "pattern in nature" as Pattern describes broken spren. Confirmed as a level below the Nightwatcher/Stormfather, the difference in power could be due to lack of an "enhancement" by a shard. This could also be the reason he seems broken, he lacked the enhancement given by a shard that let the other 2 bondsmith spren survive the recreance intact. But at the same time had enough power to stay more alive than most spren who just became deadblades. Have I missed any posibilities? I currently believe the evidence points toward a dawnsinger (possibly Cusicesh) as the last bondsmith spren. Admittedly it's based on several theories/assumtions but I still think we cant do any better with the small amount of information available to us. Likewise if anyone disagrees or thinks I am crazy please say so we can discuss it more! PS: I am totally crazy

I like it. I've always like the dawnsingers=unmade idea and the last dawnsinger being a bondsmith soren does have a kind of poetry about it. As for the WoB that says unmade are splinters of odium I have no issue with it. It could be argued the Stormfather is a splinter of Honour but he certainly hasnt always been. Investiture can corrupt/change the original nature of something.

Because when the compounder burns his metalmind he gets far more of the attribute than he needs at the time. Allomancy will give him the attribute at a set rate, whether he wants that much or not. To take Oversleeps Iron compounder, if he burns a metalmind to get more weight it is unlikely he wants to be that much heavier at the time of burning, so he can store the excess weight to tap as and when it is needed. Same with Miles, Miles didnt need much healing normally, so he stored it, giving him an insane amount of health to tap when he needed it. The Lord Ruler also stored it and then tapped it constantly to stay in his prime. Just burning it and becoming a baby was of no use, he needed to be able to tap it at the rate he wanted, not the rate allomancy provided naturally. Thats why they all carry metalminds to store the attribute, compounding just allows them to fill the metalmind much faster so they have access to more of the attribute. The bands can be recharged the same way.

As best I can remember: Battle of Vedenar No idea, I would need to check to be sure but I dont think any numbers are mentioned to base the estimate off. Everstorm Battle 30,000+ Alethi. About 7000 for Dalinar, Roion and Sebarial (maybe a little more for the last 2) and approx 10,000 for Aladar. 30,000+ Parshendi. Based on the details given, I would say about 10,000 that were involved in the fighting and about 20,000 singers. This fits with there being about 37,000 Parshendi left in Narak with everyone transforming except some dissenters. Battle of the Tower 15,000 Alethi. 8,000 of Dalinars men amd 7,000 of Sadeas'. An extra 1000 for Sadeas if you wamt to include bridgemen. 15,000+ Parshendi. Sadeas says they always bring at least 10,000 to the tower plus a 2nd army arrives, significant enough to take up the space where Sadeas had been. If anyone has any more details I missed or just different opinions on my guesswork let me know.

Haha thanks, I have just finished my re-reads of WoK, WoR and Edgedancer ready for Oathbringer and have a couple of theory ideas I'm working on so I'll try and post something good soon. I will say though that after the re-read I am even more convinced the dawnsingers were the listener gods pre-odium and now are as the unmade. It clarifies a lot of the seeming contradictions in their songs.

I posted a theory a couple of months or so ago that the dawnsingers became the unmade, with their corruption by Odium also explaining why listeners seem to refer to their Gods as seperate from the Unmade on occasion. On my phone so I'll link the thread later, but although there isnt much evidence yet, the dawnsingers=unmade idea fits with the information currently available, in my opinion anyway.