Jace21

Pretty sure Vin would disagree with that. But I actually picked Lord Ruler and Elantrian (Mistborn a close 2nd) both for the sheer versatility offered.

I've often wondered about the significance of the cymatics and the corresponding cities too. Its hard to speculate too much since we are only told of 4 cities I believe so its difficult to spot a pattern. I like the idea that they are the Dawncities but I just wanted to point out that Kharbranth was not one of the examples given in the books as having a matching cymatic pattern. However Thaylen City was, and was also in the same Silver Kingdom. I'm not sure if that affects your thoughts at all.

Shallan's necklace that she tries to use to barter for her brothers freedom is Aluminium. Its not found naturally and can only be soulcast, making it rare, but the Rosharans do know about it at least. I agree the lock in particular may be too thick to cut with the blade but I would have thought it would have scratched at least when Renarin tested it. I could be wrong though, I cant really remember the material properties of Aluminium. I suppose the lock isnt specified to be the same material as the blade-guards and is possibly thick/strong enough that the blade wouldnt cut. I just cant see any way the Aluminium could shift shape to match the blade without it being invested, which is impossible because Aluminium. I think the lock amd blade-guards are probably the same as yet unknown material. I'd love to know what it is though. The logical answer is they are also spren, but locking spren in the physical just to be able to train with blunt blades seems harsh.

As far as I know the guards they use to train with Shardblades are definitely not Aluminium for the followimg reasons: 1. Aluminium is known on Roshar yet Zahel states no one knows what the guards are made of. 2. Both the guards and the Oathgate lock seem to shift to match the shape if the blade. Aluminium couldnt do this. 3. Shardblades cant magically cut Aluminium but they're still large sharp objects and can cut/scratch on a physical level, particularly with Aluminum being quite a soft metal. Yet Renarin cant scratch the lock and as long as the guards are on the blade they dont brake. On my phone so cant do quotes at the minute or a full WoB search to see if I'm right but I think so.

Not sure if this has been said but Dafne Keen for Lift? I think with a softer accent than in Logan she could totally pull off the acting and she looks pretty much exactly how I imagine Lift to look like.

Exactly, I think there have been 3 "versions" of the Stormfather, for want of a better phrase. 1. Rider of the Storms - Pre-Shards 2. Stormfather affiliated with Honour and a bondsmith-spren 3. As above, now merged with Tanavast's cognitive shadow My proposal is that whatever Honour did to cause stage 2, was the same process Odium used to corrupt Dawnsingers. 1. Adonalsium spren - Pre-Shards 2 Spren affiliated with Odium, now called the Unmade I guess the quesion would then be if the Stormfather was ever classified as splinter of Honour. If he was, the the Unmade can be splinters of Odium and the theory can work. If not, then I need to rethink it. Does that all make sense?

As far as I am aware the idea that greatshells bonds with their spren grant limited access to surges is just a theory. I like it but I havent seen any WoB to say it is fact. On the point if the Stormfather forming a Nahel bond, I may not have been clear. I am aware that each planet has a focus and 1 shards system can be powered using the investiture of another. Mistborn spoilers below So while I accept that a splinter/spren of any non-honour or non-cultivation shard could form a nahel bond I would expect the abilities granted to be different. The following WoB seems to support this. Elantris spoilers For the stormfather this is clearly not the case as the surges granted to bondsmiths are shared by other orders.

I see where you're coming from, even if I lean towards the explanation proposed by Calderis and in my theory. My issue in defining it stems from the fact different splinters can be so different from each other. Elantris spoiler What are people thoughts about the Stormfather? It seems generally accepted he was on the planet before Honour and Cultivation. Yet even before he merged with Tanavast cognitive shadow, he had nahel bonded before, I believe we have a WoB on that. Is he a poweful adonalsium spren somehow capable of granting access to Honour/Cultivations magic system? Or was he somehow modfied by Honour before being able to grant surgebinding? Or something else entirely?

Absolutely right, I'm not 100% sold on them being abIe to be splinters if they are corrupted adonalsium spren. Aside from the posibility of Odium splitering himself to enhance just 1 of 16 facets to their investiture, the odium part, all I really have to go on is the name. I struggle to think of reasons they would be "unmade" if they have always been splinters of odium. I dont mind the WoB as I agree they are now "of odium" but the splinter thing is definitely the weakness of the theory, I just dont believe it to be insurmountable And thank you!

Yeah I think he must have done somehow. It just doesnt seem to make sense that they are "Unmade" if they have been splinters for their entire existence. However if they are Adonalsium spren as I think, they would already have some odium-investiture, the same as they would of the other 16. It diesnt seem too much of a stretch for him to use that and strengthen it somehow to make then his splinters, rather than Adanolasiums. I think something similar happened with the Stormfather/ Honour and Nightwatcher/ Cultivation. There are definitely other possibilities for all aspects of the theory, there is too little evidence for anything to be defnitive. This just seems to fit to me. As for the Dawnshards I think they are related only by name and possibly some type of relationship to adonalsium but I'm not sure. I've seen the dawnsinger = dawnshard or listener bonded with dawnshard but it just doesnt seem to make sense to me. Dawnshards seem more like objects than spren.

Good Evening Everyone! I have seen quite a bit of chatter on the forum recently about the Unmade, Dawnsingers and Dawnshards, with various people speculating and theorising their nature, origin etc. This has inspired me to finally publicise a pet theory of mine that I have been sitting on for while. This is my first time posting a theory and only my 20th or so post on the Shard so please bear with me if there are any formatting errors or its difficult to follow. There may be some slight cosmere spoilers, but I think it is fine to be posted here. If not then can I am sure a Mod will move it. Well here goes! Summary The mysterious Unmade were originally the group known as the Dawnsingers, before being corrupted by Odium. There is actually or lot more involved but that is the basis of it. Evidence Okay, so here is where it gets a bit complicated. Hopefully this will make sense and not just be a hot mess. I have spoilered quotes from the books and WoB for length. Firstly I would like to propose a rough sequence of events in Rosharan History as follows. Adonalsium creates Roshar. Honour and Cultivation arrive on Roshar. Odium arrives in the Greater Roshar System. The Desolations begin. The final Desolation, Aharietiam occurs, 9 Heralds abandon mankind. Present day Roshar. As far as I am aware the above is correct to the best of our knowledge, and most is explicitly stated in the books. But here is where it starts to get interesting. Humans do not seem to be native to Roshar, this is supported by in-world myths such as the Iriali Long Trail and the Vorin Tranquiline Halls. It is also supported by their physiology, Humans do not look native to Roshar, they have no carapace. This is extremely odd as basically every other form of animal life we see has carapace of some kind. Shinovar and animals living their are the main exceptions. It seems likely that the first humans to arrive on Roshar post-shattering either arrived with the Shards or were created by them soon after their arrival. Listeners / Parshendi almost certainly are native to Roshar. they seem to predate the Shards arrival on Roshar at the very least, backed up by the below WoB. Now then, another race or group said to predate humans on Roshar are the Dawnsingers. We don't have very much information on them, the main time they are spoken of being the below exchange between Kabal and Shallan in WoK, emphasis mine. Now then, this is far from conclusive, but the in-world opinion seems to be that the Dawnsingers are "kindly spren" who look after the poor humans after their arrival on Roshar. In WoR Dalinar muses that the Dawnsingers supposedly helped to found the Dawncities, consistent with the idea of kindly spren helping out the new arrivals. I propose that the Dawsingers were indeed a group of Adonalsium-spren, more powerful than your average spren, though probably less than stormfather level. Along with other powerful Adonalsium-spren such as the Rider of Storms/ Stormfather, these constituted the Listener Gods. So I believe Humans, Listeners and Spren lived together on Roshar with no major problems until Odium arrived. Upon his arrival he realised he was bound to the system and began the cycle of desolations. To do this he needed servants to fight for him. Most of these I believe are just regular odium-spren. However the very name of the Unmade seems to assume they were once something else. As Honour and Cultivation were both alive at this point, I doubt Odium was able to influence any creation of theres to such a degree, but something of Adonalsium would be differnent. Since Odium was part of the Adonalsium it stands to reason he can more easily affect an Adonalsium-spren than a spren that is 100% honour and/or cultivation. We already assume that changing spren in this way is possible as something similar happened to the Stormfather and possibly the Nightwatcher. I think that in his search for minions, Odium corrupted the largest group of powerful beings that were vulnerable to his influence, the Dawnsingers. I think this is foreshadowed in the Kabsal/Shallan conversation. The in-world definition of Voidbringer is quite generic and poorly defined. Having said that, a Voidbringer almost certainly has to relate to Odium. To switch the earlier comparison by Shallan and Kabsal, some kind of "Voidbringer" would be the opposite of a Dawnsinger. Now we also don't really have much information on the nature of the Unmade. However we have the below quote from Taravangian in WoR regarding Nergaoul, one of the Unmade Now to me, "Unmade" implies that they are VERY different to whatever they were before. If this is the case then what would be the opposite of "an ancient, evil spren"? Wouldn't it be an ancient (adonalsium) spren described as "healers, kindly spren"? I think yes, it would. Once many spren began bonding with Humans and granted surges, the Listeners felt betrayed. It is speculated that because of this they changed to new gods, the Unmade. This makes even more sense if you consider that if I am correct, the Unmade used to be a part of the very spren the Listeners once worshipped. The music link is also there. The listeners are sensitive to their rhythms, using them to convey mood and subtext to their conversations. It makes sense they would be drawn to beings that, as well as offering them power to fight the humans with, were also somehow related to music. I feel like as this post has dragged on it has become less coherent and more rambling and I am sure I've missed some point and some evidence out so I may edit it later but for now that's it. I am unaware of any WoBs or previous threads that might disprove this, but please, rip it apart

My current theory is that the dawnshards was a collective name for a varied group of objects. Kind of like how a hammer and a saw ars both "tools" but are individually very different. Not sure if there is WoB that contradicts it yet, it needs work before I role it out to the public.

Elsecaller. Not what I expected but in hindsight it probably makes the most sense.

Hmm... I cant believe I'd never seen that WoB before. Which blade is Brandon talking about there?

I believe they kinds, traditional fabrials such as the fabrial lifts in Urithiru, which do seem to be similar to modern fabrials but more advanced. And then the surgebinding fabrials which seem to be very different in the way they work. Soulcasters being different even than most surgebinding fabrials.

We can't actually say that for sure I dont think. Only that the Stornfather says he will not be a shardblade for Dalinar. We have no idea how it worked pre-recreance, it could be the same but could also have been different.

I agree that she would acknowledge the attempt of someone she doesnt like, but I dont think she'd refer to them as a friend. I had always assumed her friend was wither female or an ardent. After all, the attempt included the scholarship angle, which is a feminine pursuit. Doesnt she refer to the other members of the Veristitalians as her sisters? One of them could easily be the friend in question. All this is a bit off topic though, I think Amamran is a possibility for man in her past but I doubt it, I am more of the opinion that we havent met them yet, if indeed we will.

Oh I know a lot of destruction has happened previously but by the time the ring is really in play, their is little power left to challenge it. Numenor is fallen, the elves are weak, and the valar dont interfere. So there isnt too much left to really test the invulnerability of the ring. As for nightbloods command vs the rings influence I am pretty sure nighblood would win, but someone wielding both the ring and nightblood could be terrifying.

I actually think Nightblood would be fine at destroying the Ring, at least in theory. He cant be corrupted, the ring cant offer it anything that it wants. Nightbloods sole purpose is to "destroy evil". Even if he has trouble deciding what that is sometimes I doubt its enough to let the ring sway him. And its true the ring is almost indestructible but Middle Earth is actually pretty light on destructive magic when compared to the Cosmere. Its main defence would be how invested it is but Nightblood might work anyway sincs he doesnt seem to follow the usual rules. The ring could just corrupt his wielder though.

Yeah sorry just re-read it, I must have skimmed the first time and thought you were saying they were definitely not involved, my bad. In my defence it is really late here.

I also think Amaram and Jasnah have a lot if history, not all of it good. I dont think he is the friend you are referring too though. The friend who tried to convert her was the one sho gave her the book of endless pages, which she characterised a a very good attempt. I feel like she wouldnt be speaking so positively if it was Amaram.

Based on those WoBs we actually cant be sure of that. The oathpact didnt include Aimians, but since the Oathpact is only "part of" the reason Odium is bound, the Aimians could still be involved somehow. I personally doubt they were. Binding unmade, sure, Odium, probably not. But the WoBs don't rule it out completely.

Isn't there a scene with Szeth where he lashes himself in too many directions too quickly and ends up disoriented? He is probably the most accomplished user of the gravitation surge we have seen so I agree that it may not be ideal for keeping up with a mistborn in a smallish space.

I'll reply to the rest later, but just as a note, Rosharan Soulcaster can make aluminium. Shallan tries to use an aluminium necklace as part of a trade to pay off her brothers gambling debts. It is stated as valuable precisely because on Roshar aluminium can only be made through soulcasting.

I have skimmed through the thread and I dont think I have seen this mentioned. In Adolin's duel with Elit, Elit thrusts with his blade. Adolin then thinks that it is a gamble, but it is possible to drive between the plates to score a direct hit. Its a way the mistborn could use smaller, lighter objects which would be less useful for shattering sections, but still not useless, spears, arrows etc. Possibly difficult to do, and the radiant could heal, but still worth considering to try and speed up the Radiants stormlight consumption.