The Technovore

Fair, but we're not talking about Era 3 with a "Modern Army" we're talking about Era 2. Era 2 is pre-WWI tech mixed with the Wild West. (which era ended in 1920). WWI was a war of hard-learned lessons. It was a war where people moved from "big armies running at each other" to more tactical strategies because finally their tech made conventional warfare untenable. The supposition that Radiant's can't easily get into close combat against Era 2 Scadrial that hasn't had a war in 300 years which--isn't even going to do as well as the French did in early WWI--is a misconception. It's also inaccurate to say that Radiant-favoring arguments have been reliant on them getting into close combat. We've already demonstrated Windrunners and Skybreakers would be amazing living artillery at range, and Elsecallers are already onscreen soulcasting at range. Heck--if SA 5 features a Dustbringer or Skybreaker using Division at range, this conversation is over for Scadrians because all the steel compounders Scadrial can spike together aren't doing jack against a Skybreaker with Plate and Blade incinerating people both at a touch and from half-a-mile in the air. Thing is, Roshar's layman soldier is stuck in the middle ages, but the Radiants are already fighting in the modern age. They lack guns, but Windrunners possess the super maneuverability of fighter jets (probably more agile then them tbh), and the potential for artillery power that we rely on nuclear fission to generate. Era 2 """flak""" (bullets) isn't going to do jack *squat* against a modern jet because a modern jet can practically fly circles around those installations. S v R would be a WWI experience for both armies. Let's be SUPER DUPER GENEROUS and say that Scadrial gets a nice standing army of fully-trained and armed riflemen up. They even have horseless carriages (lol) designed to hold their officers and transport goods. And hey! They reverse engineered the Set's artillery and with Kelsier's knowledge of hemalurgy and a ton of rotary guns they've got a really good shot at conquering Roshar. Unified Scadrial is looking awesome! I mean sure they don't know the first thing about running a war, seeing at this is their first one, but I mean hey the Survivor's here and he's totally good at detailed logistics and organization and totally didn't have that one incident where he tried to set up a rebellion and it got completely wiped out. They'll be fine! First war in 300 years is sure to be an unqualified success! Then, they find some incredible plot device that lets them get to Roshar and set up in the Frostlands (the part of Roshar's Cognitive that's closest to Scadrial's Cognitive). Alethi army meets them. They absolutely slaughter those fools. Look at them, lining up with their spears like cavemen, then dying in a firestorm of lead and gunpowder. Excellent! Victory is nigh at hand! They have big guns, plenty of canned goods to feed the army, they're establishing a supply chain, and those riflemen make those spearmen look like nothing. A wonderful first day. On to Kholinar! Then, overnight, someone came in and soulcasted all the food to sludge, half the ammo to sludge, all the artillery to sludge. Oops! Turns out the Lightweavers got in and absolutely rekted the place. Where were the Seekers? They should've been able to detect the illusions. Turns out they didn't know what they were detecting until they got too close and ended up with a Sprenblade through their neck. Then, the next day, the Windrunners and Dustbringers show up, with an army of stormform singers. The riflemen set up in their lines and lay down fire, mowing away the incoming singers. But, they're now hungry, low on ammo, and without artillery. Then their metal-adorned front lines start getting fried by lightning. Never fear, the compounders should be able to make short work of the singers! (any they do, because of course they would.) Then a 100kg stone slams into the camp at near-sonic speeds and wipes out a whole company. Then, more start dropping. Instead of a nice offensive against savages like the Scadrians expected, it's chaos and smoke and blood. Then the fully plated Windrunners drop from the sky and summon their blades, dueling metalborn and mowing down riflemen. Dustbringers bring wholesale destruction and cataclysm (see: The Kalak prologue in WoK). Here and there some Radiants drop, but the offensive rapidly finds themselves not out-gunned, yet still completely overwhelmed because for every dead Radiant you have some 300-2k dead troops just from the bombardment. Forget the fact that their blades are cleaving through metalborn left and right because Coinshots only give Windrunners a nice challenge and the Pewterarms don't have enough aluminum armor to save them. Forget that those Leecher cubes are nice and all but when the stormform crash through the front lines that's not to save you from frying. Forget that Scadrians are not as battle-hardened as Rosharans or the Alethi (who they'd have to deal with first because geography.) and their officers would be soft-skinned nobleman while the Rosharan officers are actual rusting soldiers that know how to keep their men in line. No. Just the bombardment and sabotage would break them in Week 1. The first day of war, neither planet would know what to expect. The first battle would be a bloodbath. Would be a tragedy. And ultimately, if Roshar had the home advantage, Roshar would hold its ground just fine. Scadrial comes again. This time they've used hemalurgy to its full extent. If anyone knows how to make hemalurgy non-lethal, it would be the SoScads, and Kelsier would wrangle that knowledge into NorScad's hands. Every Ferring is a Compounder. Every Misting has their complimentary power. Tin and Pewter. Iron and Steel. Chromium and Nicrosil. They have ettmetal weapons for explosive power and for Leecher grenades. They have anti-Radiant tactics. They're giving their metalborn aluminum weapons and armor, and the koloss they've recruited have some lovely sledgehammers for cracking open Radiants that get too close. They now know better than to line up nicely so the Windrunners can drop rocks on them. Roshar then is going to start sweating a little. Roshar would learn its own lessons, and fast. The war would evolve into attrition, espionage, guerilla tactics, and assassination and political intrigue. The casualties for the first few months would be catastrophic for both sides. Ultimately what wins the war is knowledge and R&D. Unified Roshar has the advantage of ALL the knowledge of the Ancient Fused, the genius of Navani and her army of scholars, and all the stormlight they could possibly want as they set about to discovering Surge Fabrials and making their Airships way better. To be fair, Scadrial has its fair share of geniuses, and a unified front for them is also going to mean impressive strides in weapons and magi-tech. Scadrial has the advantage in engineering and earth tech, but Roshar has the edge on Realmatic knowledge *already*, 5+ years before AoL. I hold that Roshar and it magic users would hold just fine.

Second sentence is in direct contradiction of the word "united" and your first sentence. The condition of each planet once they unite is that they'll be united. Between that and the ad hominem attacks, I think you've run out of patience for valid arguments. There is nothing here you're saying that you haven't said before, and that goes for most of everyone's posts here. Most of the suppositions here are unconfirmed, unsupported, and likely won't be confirmed anytime soon. No one can actively disprove the other, try as they like. You clearly read the books differently than everyone else here does. Let's stop the useless arguing and be done. Edit: Admitting bias in a discussion is not as productive as you think. Bias, by definition, is a colored lens that may obscure facts and objective reality. Admitting that you're biased while refusing to change it, and claiming that you're only biased because everyone else is, does nothing to combat bias, but does a LOT to turn a good argument into a rusting cremshow. If you want Scadrial to be fairly represented, then fairly represent it. The more you reach for ways to make it seem favorable, the more clownish it looks. It's a lot like plastic surgery.

Well, it kind of is already exploded/exploding. Sel's cognitive, which contains the Shards, is an extremely dangerous firestorm. Is that just simply because it's a ton of Investiture? Or is it because that Investiture is igniting itself because Dom is anti-Dev? I get what you"re saying about them seeing themselves as complimentary, but we're not just talking about Intents, but the wavelengths involved. Devotion and Dominion sound like inverted forms of the same concept: The Ruler, and the Rule-ee. Even if they saw themselves as complimentary (and they are, kinda), their wavelengths could plausibly be the inverted form of the same tone. I'm not saying "this is definitely what it is", but it seems like enough narrative clues are in place that it's plausible to me. (It's at least going to be my headcanon for a while lol) Also you mentioned earlier that they're using the Dor, not gaseous investiture... is the Dor not gaseous investiture? It's the power in the Cognitive trying to get to the Physical, is it not? It's described as plasma, which is the phase state above gas... it seems to make sense to me that the Dor is just the (very combustible) cocktail of Dev-Light and Dom-Light. Again, haven't read Elantris in a while.

Honestly I think saying Ruin and Preservation are each other's Anti-Tone or Anti-Investiture doesn't really work on a few levels (If Scadrial is made by both of them, all humans included, then how the rusts is everything not exploded?), so Brandon might backtrack on those wobs a bit. There's also the fact that Anti-Voidlight is still Voidlight. It's not suddenly Mercy's tone or whatever the opposite of "Divine Wrath" would be. On the surface it's shown to still be recognizably Odium's tone. So something different is going on there, it seems like, that can't be just summed with "Perception reasons"

Go the Arcanum Unbounded and take a look at the Khriss entry for the Sel System. She mentions the Dominion and Devotion have "polarized powers", which in my mind is a clear hint that they had a relationship just like Preservation and Ruin. Now, not every Shard has a polar opposite, and Anti-Light might be different than just "Investiture from the opposite Shard", but, Preservation and Ruin's Investiture do destroy each other. They do in Era 1, and Ettmetal is explosively reactive in Era 2, and in both eras Hemalurgically Spiked individuals repulse the mists. Brandon has said in a few Post-RoW wobs that Preservation's Anti-Tone is Ruin's Tone. It stands to reason for me that Skaze would look like Inverted Seons, then. It would also help explain why Sel's Cognitive is a firestorm of plasma and Investiture--Odium stuffed two Shards that react explosively to each other in the same place. Edit: Okay, it seems like the original assertion is that Skaze themselves are Anti-Dom investiture. I dunno about that. We know that similar effects are going to look different on different worlds due to various "Perceptions and beliefs of the residents" mumbo jumbo reasons. It could just be that Domi-Light looks that way, because it's the inverse of Dev-Light, which is what the Selish are used to. (I haven't read Elantris in a while so I might be wrong that they're just using Dev-Light.)

I have a whole rant I may post later on, but my short answer is no, Odium's not corrupted, if anything, Odium is now less corrupted than ever, because Mr. T's entire philosophy, thought process, and being aligns almost perfectly with Odium's intent.

I like the line of thinking, also consider that when Kelsier goes around punching gods, there are two reasons: a. He thinks they should be doing a much better job. b. He thinks they're a piece of rusting cremcake. Considering how much destruction and rampant dishonor has been all over Roshar, Scadrial, and the cosmere in general, he'd probably love to punch whoever's holding Honor for reason a. If it happens to be Dalinar, highprince, former Blackthorn, noble, etc. he'll just relish it for reason b.

Funnily enough, I put the same question in Sanderson General, and Feruchemy came out overwhelmingly lol. I guess it's just the perfect irl magic system.

That's fair @Mistborn Surgebinder, except for a couple things: Moash may be more justified than Miles. Miles believed he was following Kelsier's path, but factually he was just WRONG about the levels of oppression and the appropriate response, as Wax pointed out. Moash does live in a pretty oppressed society. The de facto power of a group of shardbearers versus the farmers of Vorin Roshar is pretty comparable to the power TLR had over everyone else. But he didn't do it right. He wasn't fighting Elhokar out of a sense of justice or liberation. It was petty revenge. And then what did he do after joining the Singer? Became the lackey for the Fused and for Odium himself. Odium, the guy whose Unmade and corruptions were mostly responsible for his society being so messed up in the first place. The Fused, who gleefully would murder the singers to receive new life. The Fused, who immediately set to dominating the singer people just like the lighteyes dominated the humans, whose express goals are to someday dominate both peoples. Moash didn't liberate anyone. He denounced one group of oppressors and joined another. Moash is no Kelsier. My case is closed. Annnnd I just realized this is SUPER Off-Topic. sorry @Phlipz1. Here's a getting to know you question: If you could pick a magic system to have on Earth, which would it be?

Well, for some magic systems, it's really not intuitive, like Forgery and Aons that require specific mastery and attention to detail. But contrast that with the more intuitive Feruchemy and Awakening--especially Awakening, where Intent and Command are intrinsically connected and it requires little skill to make things happen if you have the knowledge and ability--although the nature of Breaths may help that. Surges seem to be toward the softer side, where Stoneshaping and Soulcasting are accomplished with stormlight and a friendly conversation with the object being targeted. I guess I'm saying some Cosmere magics are that easy, and I'd wager Surges are one of those easier magics.

"We Mistborn need not make sense," Vin, probably.

Moash would be the SA Kelsier if Kelsier was a rusting git that ate rotten cremlings for lunch. Since he isn't though, Moash is the SA Miles Hundredlives instead.

I agree with @Phlipz1's analysis. The fact that Venli can talk to the stone seems to hint that stoneshaping follows the same rules as Sanderson's other "intuitive magics". The wonderful thing about his Realmatic Theory is that it provides a rational reason for magics like Awakening to be so intuitive that you can just say "fetch keys" and the little straw figure is going to figure out how to fetch the keys. You don't have to do all the programming, because everything has a level of sentience and can figure out Intent and Command. It stands to reason that Venli will progress from having to think really hard to perform Stoneshaping to being able to intuitively give Commands and have them be followed, just like how in WoR Kaladin had to think about all his Lashings, and in RoW he can just fly. (obviously there's a difference in mechanics between the two but the point--"Magic users progress from intentional use to intuitive use" is there)

Yes, yes we are. We established multiple times that we're assuming a United Roshar and a United Scadrial, to keep things simple. Otherwise, you're dealing with complicated geopolitics for both planets and an interplanetary war. That makes things complicated for both planets and is generally no fun. Cool, let's start talking about all the Metalborn that can defect to Roshar and potentially help them figure out the anti-light equivalent to the mists! Two inconvenient facts: 1. RoW happens 5 to 10 years before Alloy of Law. Kaladin went from proto Radiant to Oath 4 in about 3. There are some 200 other Radiants currently progressing. You're looking--conservatively--at about 100 Oath 4 Radiants. 2. Adolin's entire story arc in RoW was ensuring that were absolutely would be more Radiants. Can you point out to me a place in Roshar or Scadrial that is completely and utterly devoid of stone? The funny thing about planets suitable for human life is that they generally have a crust made from rock. Okay, this is a fair point, actually. Scadrian's have access to an ability that can make anyone a super genius, and abilities that make for wonderful spies and scouts. However, this is ignoring the fact that Rosharans also have tactical geniuses, also have Realmatic geniuses, and also are capable of spying and strategizing. I think Scadrial would edge them out in the tactics and laymen weapons department, but do not assume that Rosharans are bumbling fools that wouldn't be hitting them hard and adapting too. Again: Roshar has 5 to 10 years to advance in tech and tactics. Assuming United Roshar, that means the full R&D might of a Urithiru where ancient Singers, Heralds, and humans are working together. It's not like we're literally sending WoK-style spear formations at them. My loyalty? I have no loyalty, except to the (fictional fantasy universe lol) facts. The accusation of bias--while gently and humbly delivered props for that--is somewhat laughable in the face of your willingness to afford Scadrial every advantage including asserting that a significant population of rifleman are going to even remotely resemble Wax. I've said it before--this isn't supposed to be a "Roshar good, Scadrial bad" discussion or the other way around. It was supposed to be a hypothetical scenario to play with ideas and conflicting magic systems and see who we think would ultimately have the advantage. If you feel Scadrial isn't being represented, why not bring up the "Hemalurgic Fullborn abomination" scenario that's been brought up? A United Scadrial actually has the power to make Fullborn. That argument alone ended the last S v R thread, why don't we talk about that? Instead we're grasping at straws, floundering about, and ignoring the canon of the books repeatedly in a floundering attempt to assert that Metalborn should be able to slap Radiants around like ragdolls when no intellectually honest and sufficiently read individual would even entertain the notion. End Rant.

Honestly this paragraph is hilarious to me. It's so far from reality. Waxillium in AoL single-handedly took out 25 armed thugs without armor. The amount of protagonist energy required for that even by in-world standards is insane. Remember how intensely shocked the constable was? That's because that kind of thing only happens to main characters in books. Police and Soldiers are trained to aim for the center of mass of their target. Why? Because you can't reliably hit any other part of the body. Here's some light reading for you: http://carlos.excaliba.de/Diverses/Real_Role_of_Small_Arms_RDS_Summer_09.pdf https://www.police1.com/patrol-issues/articles/why-shooting-to-wound-doesnt-make-sense-scientifically-legally-or-tactically-6bOdYvNUEECtIWRI/ Bottom line? For any non-protagonist character, your accuracy in a combat situation against a moving target is going to look a lot less Waxillium Ladrian and a lot more "Unnamed Set Minion #327". And that's in real life, where humans don't fly or move with remarkable precision and agility. Please do not entertain notions of humans containing super-sniper accuracy against moving targets any more. You're looking at a mach-speed human-sized target with the armor of a tank versus a series of non-flak projectiles shot at essentially random angles. They'll be unlucky if they're hit thrice, and they can shrug that off no problem. Do not tell us that we are overestimating Radiants and then proceed to give every Thug and Tineye impossible levels of accuracy. Here's a hot take: Between RoW and AoL there's somewhere around 5 to 10 years of wiggle room. In that time, Urithiru discovers gunpowder, and the Transformation Radiants set about to soulcasting huge amounts of that, and Aluminum. Within another 4 years your bog-standard Rosharan soldier will have Napoleonic-Era Muskets made out of Aluminum Alloy and shooting Aluminum Alloy Rounds, while Gravitation Radiants just launch barrels of gunpowder at them like explosive trebuchets.

Bruh, so much yes on this. I've always been a little bit bothered that the Nightwatcher in this thread is basically a stereotypical genie. Granted! Your bane is that you now have an insatiable desire to work, be working, be accomplishing things, and/or sweating, and will have one for the rest of your life. My wish is for communism to completely disappear from everyone's minds and the general realm of human thought forever.

This is because they were Cognitive aspects of The Plot(tm).

Hard disagree that Radiants will have a hard time closing distances. Gravitation Radiants will be rusting near impossible for anyone but Wax to hit, and their Plate will shrug off at least one bullet, so even if you hit them, it won't stop them. Abrasion Radiants are described to be speedy, graceful, and agile. Again, it's going to be hard to hit them. Even Radiants without those two Surges will be fast--just like Pewter, Stormlight gets them running quickly, and if they can shrug off bullets and are quickly moving, agile targets, closing the distance is going to be trivial unless they're up against F-Steel, A-Steel, or A-Iron. Also going to disagree that Jasnah is a sorceress--she walked into battle not once, but twice, and annihilated hundreds. If she's a magic-based character, she's at least multiclassed a couple levels into "Fighter". The bit about Radiants being agile also applies to any vehicles and artillery the Scadrians could bring to bear. When a team of armored Skybreakers could drop from the stratosphere at near-mach speeds and turn all your cannons, tanks, planes, etc. to dust before zooming away just as fast--after a while, artillery stops being an asset and starts being a massive money-sink. If we're going to assume the Metalborn will be highly skilled and capable, we naturally have to assume the same of the Radiants. Doing otherwise is intellectually dishonest. And on the Radiant + Fused numbers, really, I don't know, but it doesn't seem too far out considering the point already made that spren can reproduce and that Odium and the Stormfather could make more if motivated (and an interplanetary war is plenty motivation) Edit: To be fair, if a Dustbringer or Edgedancer charged at a garrison of some dozen Scadrian machine gunners, they'd quickly be overwhelmed by bullets, and no amount of Stormlight would save them as long as the guns kept shooting. But that's not Scadrian magic, that's machine guns being a very potent and powerful magic (Murica emoji goes here). Honestly Stonewards could probably make themselves bulletproof easily tho so it just depends on using your Radiants wisely

Much to the vexation of the Brick Wall, natural enemy of The Plot(tm).

So Nightblood tried, but suddenly was stopped by The Plot(tm)!

Notice how the Glyph for Roshar in @mathiau's post contains the double eye of the almighty, with the points being the same points the Radiants place their orders in. Notice how the glyph for Koradaros contains seven of those points, while--not Tavodovast, but Rasodonar contains the other three. It might be jumping at shades in the mist, but it is curious, yes?

Bejardin... Frustration asked us to not. But the lugging heavy metal around is answered by pewter. Easy, tbh. And since a steelpushed coin is compared to a rifle's bullet a lot in Era 2 (with Mistings being at their weakest), I don't think it should be too difficult to bash up some plate with a heavy lead ingot. (just sayin )

Ah, yes, crystals growing out of every pore. Delightful.

As incredible as the power of a Radiant is, and as awesome as the helpful Spren companion would be, I'm assuming that we're talking irl, and I'm not sure I want the hassle of being a living WMD that has every military in the world aiming at my back. Sure, a Mistborn is pretty much a WMD too, but it's easier to hide thanks to copper, and generally has more powers that would be convenient in the day-to-day life. Should be relatively easy to get metals without drawing too much suspicion... right?

Ah, yes. Pewterarm. The best metal. The BEST one. I will fight all of you. And I'll win. Because I'm a rusting Pewterarm. Yes I'm drunk on power, no I don't plan on becoming sober any time soon. *flex*