Krandacth

They have symmetry and formation similar to others apparently created by cymatics. If we trust the presented histories, that suggests they were created by the Dawnsingers... More direct references in history state that Stormseat was shattered into the Shattered Plains during the last recorded Desolation (I forget the spelling of the official name used... Aharetiem or something?). What does that suggest about the Dawnsingers, I wonder...

This does align with events in WoR, as Eshonai suspects that the new songs and mental effects of Stormform are not new to Venli, as she "does not seem to act any different once she attained Stormform" (heavily paraphrased from Eshonai's comment). This suggests that, though muted, Nimbleform imposes the same influence associated with Forms of Power and forms of the Unmade.

This is explicitly not true, based on her drawing of Shallash (and maybe of Yalb, etc.) when in that miniature lait on the way to the Shattered Plains. I like the idea that Shallan will eventually release the perception that she must first draw a thing before she can Lightweave it (which Pattern has stated is a peculiarity of her Lightweaving, not a requirement of the surge). The combination of her "thoughtless doodle" farsight/foresight/whatever and her direct Lightweaving would be as @stonedshaman has described. However, I don't think this progression (being able to Lightweave without first drawing) will be tied to one of the 4 oath-like truths all Lightweavers must speak. This is because the limitation is not a thing of all Lightweavers. I assume this will be the foundation for some very Shallan-specific development.

I thought that both h and n could be used to replace phonemes, with the one used being dependent on the original phonemes. So a diacritical mark on the hard d in Nodadon softens it to an h, while the diacritical mark on the soft sh in Shallash hardens it to an n. That way the name is spelt symmetrically but pronounced as far from symmetrically as possible, to make it clear that it is not blasphemous. In fact, I'm not sure they are even specified as being limited to n and h. I suspect anything could be used, though there are probably conventions whereby a marked character sounds like a specific other character, preserving the hard-soft pairing. Tl;Dr: The reasoning is complete headcanon, but both the h in Nohadon and the n in Shallan are definitely both given as examples in the conversation with Pattern.

Isn't this just because most of Japanese is built this way? (See Hirigana being characters representing C V phoneme pairs, plus one for each vowel sound on it's own, and one for n.)

1) I think we're all in agreement here But good added detail about Sunmaker. 2) I agree here too, but some people take her distaste as an indication that it is of Odium. I was just sliding my counterpoint in there 3) + 3b) Yup 3a) Interesting, that wasn't the plot point I meant but good points to include nonetheless! I was thinking more of (Mistborn spoilers)

@river Interestingly, this isn't clear. The evidence regarding the "evil-ness" of foretelling is: * The Vorin church says it is of the Voidbringers (probably for the reasons you state, at least in part). * Syl says that seeing the future "is not of Honor" and shudders at the thought. This doesnt mean it is definitely of Odium or the Voudbringers, however: It could also mean it is of Cultivation, and we've seen how Syl feels about Spren mostly of Cultivation (E.g. Cryptics). * The Almighty says, in one of Dalinar's visions, that to *speak* of the future is forbidden. Seeing it is not, *acting* on it or giving guidance based on it is not (presumably), but *speaking* of it is. This could be related to some Mistborn plot points, or could be related to the trope of those acting to avoid a known future accidentally bringing that future about.

I've wondered for a while what it means to soulcast a human at all... Are you soulcasting the person, or just their body? In the latter case, does the body appear in Shadesmar as a sphere, in addition to the flame that represents the person as a sentient being? In which case the discussion this far makes complete sense: Changing the body would dissociate it from the sentience in the same way as killing the body, which presumably breaks that combined entity's spirit web. However, if the flame that represents the person in Shadesmar also encompasses their body, then their entire sentience and being has been convinced/forced to see itself as crystal (or whatever). This would therefore not leave a detached cognitive aspect in Shadesmar, and (Realmatically) the person hasnt died, but transformed. Furthermore, this is actually less destructive to the spirit web, conceptually, as there has not been a dissociation between the mind and the body. [wild speculation] In the second case, I would assume that the persons consciousness and soul has transformed (and so been captured) every bit as much as their physical form, and this form may be used as a model in the same way that a transformed muscle could be used as a model when transforming it back to flesh; all you need to know is how to soulcast to the base "materials" of consciousness and humanity in the former cases, and to the base material of muscle (muscle fibres) in the latter. While very unintuitive, this doesn't sound impossible to me, whereas constructing a functioning soul and mind from scratch would be a whole other degree of complexity. Think of the difference between forging a copper wire and building a super computer capable of human thought: The former can be done easily with a basic knowledge of forging, but the latter is a task that has still not been solved today. However, given a template of such a super computer and the ability to create copper wires (and transistors I guess, but shh), you could fairly easily recreate one. [/wild speculation] EDIT: Wow, way to kill a thread, Krandacth

Interesting. The conspiracy theorist in me would like to point out that that WoB starts of by generalizing the case he's talking about to "what happens to Taravangian". So, when he remembers being clever, he is clever. But he doesn't remember that day. He assumes he was clever, because of what he produced and how he can be. That WoB doesn't state that he was actually clever on that day

I this from a WoB, or just from WoR? If it was from a WoB, could you link it? Im currently in the "the Diagram was authored by Cultivation" camp, and such a WoB would blow that theory out of the water...

@Rob Lucci Well, luckily for Odium now all he has to do is (SoS) I really like this theory. We saw Vessels fight, and the Shards explicitly did not splinter. In fact they weren't noticeably damaged at all by any account we have. The fact that Odium has a method to shatter Shards (this process being what kills the Vessel, from my interpretation of the Coppermind wiki) very strongly implies that his method and the conflict we see in HoA are intrinsically incomparable.

@Lord_of_Awesome Actually, you replied to a Necro As it's here, I'll throw in that I still find Stephen Donaldson a gripping read post-Sanderson, though his most famous series (Chronicles of Thomas Covenant) can drag at times. Mordant's Need is my favourite fantasy by him, which makes use of a really unique, wonderfully constrained-but-powerful magic system (even by Sanderson's standards). The Gap series is a space opera, which is again pretty unique and really clever in both the tech and the conflict. He is a master at tearing down his characters though, so be warned.

Based on the wording of the vision in the Purelake, I think it more likely that Sja-anat does corrupt existing spren (the alternative being that some voidspren disguise themselves like the native variety, or just look very like them anyway... but given that it was a Radiant talking I think the statement is more likely to be accurate than not). However, I don't think those corrupted spren are voidspren. In the same way that most spren are not Honor- or Cultivationspren (i.e. any spren that is a Splinter of Honor or Cultivation), I expect voidspren to be higher order spren that are Splinters of Odium that can bond with people to produce voidbinding (which Stormform is not, as we have a WoB that we haven't seen an example of it yet). These would have "not [been] present on Roshar before", as you say. Note that no mention is made of an odd dark glow in the gem that Eshonai uses to attain Stormform. With my theory, this would be because corrupted spren are still fundamentally the same (they don't become Splinters of Odium), but have been coerced to his (or Sja-anat's) will. The sphere that Gavilar had, on the other hand, would have held a true voidspren.

Ah, in the same way that Ryshadium were associated with KR, and Adolin had a bond with a Ryshadium and is generally considered a man of the people and champion of the down trodden (chatting and joking with the water boys, defending the prostitute, etc)... So he's probably going to be an Edgedancer, right?

I always think it's weird how most people seem to see the Diagram as Taravangian writing to himself. The phrases used in it definitely refer to a "you" when discussing future action, and to a "me" or "I" when referring to knowledge or thoughts in the moment. Furthermore, when he reflects on the day of the Diagram's writing, Mr. T himself says that the him on that day must have been so much smarter than he has ever been otherwise that he was practically a different person; the Diagram's phrasing, as already mentioned, suggests that this sentiment was mirrored by his super-intelligent self. That's not even considering the possibility I have raised before that the Diagram was authored by someone/something else, using Mr. T at his most empathetic as an intermediary... But that point is rather moot here. Either way, I think there is every chance that the author was clever enough to predict how bits of the diagram would be presented to and received by different people. The fact that Mr. T has interpreted it as being aimed at him was, therefore, likely intentional. Finally, after it was revealed that Graves was related to the Diagram I always assumed he was acting from his own interpretation, as his actions clearly contradict those of Mr. T. This made sense to me because Mr. T's own PoV makes it clear that he considers no one capable of being an authority on the Diagram, himself included. Furthermore, he strikes me as a very humble and reasonable man trying to act in remarkable circumstances and in the face of impossible choices: Acknowledging that his interpretation is just one possible interpretation and letting others in his trusted circle have their own interpretations seems completely in keeping with that impression.

As a counterpoint (and not to disprove this theory), is it not possible that Shallan's artistic ability and associated empathy are enough to show people a version of themselves that is both close enough to true and yet also closer to what they wish for themselves? And the idea that someone else can see that in them causes them to subconsciously start to strive for it in a way that they may have long given up? This would be similar to the way that, in the real world, people have claimed that their lives have been changed by a piece of art that resonates with them. True, her artistic talent and even that level of empathy may be a product of her Bond, but could the effect on the person not be entirely mundane? I think we might be at risk of running into "everything can be explained by magic!" rather than a mix of magic and genuine humanity.

This is the WoB I was thinking of: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1152#71

Following on from that, I'd like to point out that all the page time devoted to Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar progressing has been because they have been struggling internally to align with their spren in spite of their perceptions of themselves. Adolin will need to develop further, but less abrasively, as he doesn't have a spren guiding him, making his story more of a slow burn. Therefore we don't need his POV in the same way we need those three, at least not yet. Also, while we know Adolin has a more complex personality than what he expresses, he is definitely still an extrovert and wears his heart on his sleave to a significant extent. As such, and as has been shown throughout books one and two, we can see significant development of him through the POVs of others. That he doesn't get significant POV in book 3/10 just means the climax of his story (if he gets one) is unlikely to happen in this book, but that's fine with me. I think we need to see more of more examples of the Nahel Bond before we could properly appreciate Adolin reviving his blade anyway!

IIRC This is possibly backed up by Dalinar's Purelake vision, in which they are hunting a spren that has been "corrupted by Sja-anat", which is an Unmade, and therefore a large splinter of Odium. I can definitely support "voidspren" being native spren thus corrupted, for now. However, there is Voidbinding to consider. According to a WoB that I cant find right now (on my phone), we haven't seen voidinding as of the end of WoR, so that isn't what the Listeners do to achieve, or once in, Stormform. As such, Voidinding is likely a counterpart to Surgebinding that results from humans bonding a different kind of Spren that also embodies a more abstract concept than the native spren (like honor, but derived from Odium, e.g. Vengencespren). In which case, these Spren would be Voidspren, and Stormspren would not be voidspren at all but corrupted windspren. This ties into my final point, and one that you pointed out yourself: Wind and Honour (or Protection, as I believe Syl more accurately represents, though she could also be Dutyspren?) aren't related notionally. However, [whatever Syl is] are functionally/metaphorically related to Windspren, as they grant the ability to essentially fly, and encourage their Bondmates to fight, and metaphors for skilled fighters are often wind-related, e.g. "he was a whirlwind of steel", or the numerous examples describing Kaladin. Whilst this is a fairly fluffy definition, the upshot is that people who attract [whatever Syl is] are also very likely to attract windspren, and this is what seems to be the understanding of "cousin spren" in the 17th Shard. In a similar way, Cryptics aren't conceptually similar to creationspren, but there has been some concensus here that they are cousin spren because people bonded to the former (Lightweavers) are prone to attract the latter (through their art). All that is just the prevailing theory, however. I don't believe anything out there contradicts your theory. I would be interested in knowing what you think would be cousin spren to Cryptics, according to your theory: I personally can't see any similarities between them and Creationspren, not like between [whatever Syl is] and Windspren...

I hope he achieves his goals, realises that in doing so he has doomed the world. I then hope he ends up wishing he were dead for a decent amount of time before being granted that wish, only for it to turn out that the world can be saved despite (or perhaps even in part because of) his actions.

I think that is more evidence that Mraize and/or Iyatil (sp?) is a worldhopper interested in magic systems (I.e. like Hoid) than that Hoid is a Ghostblood. We have no evidence that any of the other Ghostbloods are interested in those things.

I've always (well, since my third reread where I was questioning the "truth" as perceived by every character. Incidentally, this was around the time I joined this forum...)... Where was I? Right. A long held belief of mine is that Syl could be best described as Protection Spren, and that High Spren are a firm contender for the title of purest Honor Spren. Historically (and mythically), the notion of honor has always been defined by a set of rules or code of conduct, and the most honorable have been those that keep to those rules even when personal feelings make that difficult or even are in direct opposition. Examples include but are not limited to King Arthur's and historically verified orders of Knights (and the codes of chivalry), as well as Samurai and other Japanese martial schools. However, it depends on Brandon's interpretation of Honor. In more recent history, many people in the (Western) world have become disillusioned with the prevailing legal system of their country, and by extension the law on which they claim to act, due to the perceived "wrongness" of judgements that, in fact, follow the letter of the law. Nale's behaviour thus far has already made this theme a prominent one in the SA, which is probably why Brandon said what he did, as quoted by @galendo. Nonetheless, I still have high hopes for new/proto-Sky breakers :-)

Yeah, that's the closest I found after some dedicated searching of old threads, and it really isn't about complementary personalities. It is interesting that there seems to be some grounding for Nahel Bonds to often be cross-gendered... I'm not happy ascribing to a theory on this until we see more with Glys and Renarin. I think at least one reason Brandon could be keeping him so secret is what their relationship reveals about the Nahel Bond, though.

@Rasarr This is what I was referring to, yes

I've never heard that before! Is it a WoB? One of my theories predicts something similar to this, but not exactly as you said it, so I'd love to know the original source.