Krandacth

I think that's because pretty much everyone agrees that he was justified in what he did, for the reasons you say! :-) Unfortunately, Adolin seemed to think what he did was illegal; this is backed up by multiple opinions throughout the books regarding the convention of direct confrontation outside of duels or war being very unAlethi, to the point of illegality. Therefore the justice and/or morality/ethicality of what he did is generally agreed and so needs no further discussion; The precise nature of the response to his actions by the Alethi, particularly if they will consider it a crime, and how severe a one, are much less clear, and so more interesting to theorise about!

@Windrunner19 Late in WoR, during the excursion to face the Parshendi once and for all. Felt is one of the Plateau scouts mentioned by name.

Back on the original topic, on a rerereread of WoR, I came across this nugget that I'm not sure has been mentioned. It seems to set out exactly what the consequences for Adolin will be: So, unless the Alethi legal system has collapsed post-Everstorm and everything is now based purely on Dalinar's judgement, this is what can be expected, and what Ialai et al. will feel justified in calling for. Assuming he does get found guilty, and isn't executed, exile has been foreshadowed for Adolin.

My head canon is that Shalash had been through recently and de-faced it, so it had been taken down for repair (as I have been ninja's about). It could also have been the statue used by Jasnah in her confrontation with Ivory. She may have Elsecalled it to fight on her behalf, because: # Her experiences in the WoR prologue don't match Shallan's experiences with Soulcasting. # She didn't remark on its absence on her way through the same entrance hall. However, I'm not convinced she didn't just use its pattern within the cognitive realm to shape the contents of that realm, as may be a basic function of that realm not related to the surges. We need to know more about Shadesmar, really.

I do not agree that he has failed. Brandon is focusing on a realistic middle-aged romance, in the full knowledge that such a relationship is not usually full of the "excitement" of general insecurity, uncertainty, and tentative exploration of new and unusual feelings. They are, instead, full of specific insecurity and tentative behaviour due to personal inhibitions born, not of inexperience but of experience (read: baggage). While the experience of romance is no longer "new" in the general sense, the situations of the participants make everything in the specific romance new and exciting for them; tensions are introduced that, while different from those in traditional, more generally-relatable first-love romances, are just as impactful. Unfortunately, as all aspects that make the romance exciting are more specific than in "young" romance, they are potentially less easy to engage with, and so would not make good content for a romance novel, whose readers generally want to live vicariously through the hero/heroine. However, that is not the necessary purpose of romance in epic fantasy, and I personally was just as invested in the development of Dalinar/Navani as in any of the more hypothetical ships being floated. On the other hand, their story has basically stabilised, so I struggle to see how it will continue to be as engaging, going forward, as the pseudo-triangle of Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin, which is still in flux.

So, building on the OPs hypothesis that the Diagram was not just the result of the heightened intelligence of Taravangian, this thread discusses who else may have contributed (starting with the case for it being primarily Cultivation):

I agree that Desolations never have struck with immediate full force, but i don't agree that this stanza provides any indication as to why: just as you believe this Desolation has followed a different path, I believe the first probably did too. To an extent, each one was probably different, though it does seem like there were common signs. That is very true! It is fun to speculate, though, and see what might fit :-) @Figberts, if we assume that the Listeners could worldhop at the time of the Shards' collective arrival in the Greater Roshar system, then the "land far away" could feasibly by anywhere in the Physical or Cognitive Realm of any of the 3 planets. However, there are reasons to narrow this down: # Ashyn has not been linked to any of the Shards, so why would Void-/Odiumspren be encountered there? # Most of Roshar (barring Iri, the Purelake, potentially Shinovar*) isn't particularly "warm", and the PR of Braize is inhospitably cold. # Braize is the place that Odium settled, and its CR is, by all accounts, very hot. None of these things prove that the Listeners first encountered Void-/Odiumspren in the CR of Braize, but they are enough to make it my working hypothesis :-) *Admittedly, there has been a thread revived recently that links Shin Stone Shamanism to Odium-worship... I'm not too sure that's the case :-P but can't disprove it, so maybe the "land far away" is just the other end of the continent. On the other hand, the suggestion is that some of the Listener songs are older than Desolations, and it seems incredibly unlikely that the Listeners were limited to the area that would become the shattered plains until the end of the last Desolation. So Shinovar would not have been unilaterally "far away" when the "Voidbringers entered their songs".

We know that after the Listeners first turned to the Voidspren, they were fundamentally changed, so anything said of the original acceptance of Voidspren does not necessarily apply to the others. Yes, there is usually a buildup to Desolations, but there are WoB stating that Odium's influence is held off by the Heralds' resistance to torture on Braize: Heralds' therefore necessarily arrive back on Roshar at the beginning of Odium's influence, because Odium's influence cannot begin until they return. Odium's influence would then mean the arrival of his Spren, and, as we see in WoR, the arrival of his Spren does not immediately spawn armies of Voidbringers. @Rasarr, according to the Coppermind wiki, Khriss (author of a set of essays in Arcanum Unbound) says that Braize is "cold and inhospitable." The Heralds have been confirmed to be Cognitive Shadows between desolations, and they exist in the cognitive realm, not the physical. As what is PR sea is CR land and vice versa on Roshar, it stands to reason that cold might be hot and vice versa on Braize, which fits with both the Heralds experiences (as seen through Kalak in the prologue and Taln since his return) and Khriss' description in AU. Given that worldhopping is only really done via the cognitive realm, at the moment, however, it would make sense that the "land that was warm" was the cognitive realm of Braize.

This is not what I understood from this stanza at all, though it is vague enough to be possible. I read this as describing the overall origin of the Voidbringers (as Listeners bonded to Voidspren), rather than a description of how Voidbringers emerge in each Desolation. My main reason is that the stanza talks about a single (if prolonged) incident: Tis said it was warm in the land far away / When Voidbringers entered our songs. If it were describing a recurring pattern I would expect something more along the lines of: Tis said it begins in a land far away / Whene'er Voidbringers enter our songs. I like your thinking re: Braize, but isn't there a WoB that Braize is actually frigid in the physical realm? Also, I believe that the Listeners have been confirmed as being native to Roshar, hence the Spren symbiosis being their default state. On the other hand, the pre-Desolations Listener culture may have been advanced enough to equal the arriving humans in terms of worldhopping; as such, they may have frequented Braize' Cognitive Realm (which is hot) in the past, and so encountered Odium where he settled rather than being approached on Roshar. In fact, in typing this I have come to really like that idea! :-P In this interpretation, the Voidbringers may be the Voidspren themselves, encountered in the Cognitive Realm of Braize and brought "home" to Roshar, thereby giving Odium a presence on Roshar that he gradually strengthened. However the fact that the second reference to "home" is plural, does suggest that this is talking more about their bodies, yes. The last line technically says that it "will be said" that it is necessary, which is very much not the same as it being necessary. Also, it isn't that it will be said that it was necessary, rather that it will be said that it is necessary: not that "this series of events was unavoidable," but that "this situation is now inescapable/necessary"? This second interpretation actually foreshadows the decision to adopt Stormform in WoR, which is stated to be something they must risk to avoid total destruction by the humans. It is easy to see how, because of the original occurrence of Voidbringers, conflict with humans is inescapable and that the Listeners will therefore always, eventually, reach this conclusion.

I always understood this more as there is a common spren that does not require a specific, complex mindset to be attracted to a Listener: if the Listener fails to attract the spren they desire (and trapping that spren before hand just guarantees that one is nearby at the time of transformation), then the desired spren leaves and the dullform spren is drawn instead. Bear in mind that they don't always change, so it could be that the dullform spren isn't just drawn to any Listener, but to the feeling of disappointment if a Listener strongly wanted to change and failed. That would mean that, if the Listener wasn't so invested* in that change, they wouldn't attract any spren, and would thus not transform. *Not Invested.

I had always liked the thought that Adolin has a matching set of Blade and Plate, but that would require the Purelake Radiant to be an Edgedancer (as he recognises her Plate as Adolins). However, the colour of the glow does seem like good evidence for it being a Releaser :-(

I like the comparison that has been made to Jasnah soulcasting the ruffians: the person's perception of themselves is strongly that of a single person, and their spiritual connection to their body is very strong. It presumably takes a lot of investiture and a strong opposing view/will to overcome those two obstacles. Soulcasting a person into something not a person is the obvious example of such a feat. It would presumably take similar resources, however, to affect different parts of what is so strongly perceived and felt to be a single entity. However, as Jasnah has the mindset of authority, which allows her to so easily bend those around her to her will in (apparently) both the Physical and Cognitive Realm, Kaladin has the mind of a surgeon that allows him to clearly visualise people as the parts that make them up*: if anyone could pull off such a grizzly use of Gravitation, he could. *Whilst he doesn't often view people so mechanically, there is a notable internal monologue in WoK, after the fateful sidecarry, where he wonders what people are, then describes them as (paraphrased), "a layer of bone, a layer of muscle, a layer of fat and a layer of skin." Such a man has it in him to easily visualise the different parts of the human body as isolated, and so affect them separately.

Whilst I generally agree, I have to point out that Voidbinding is definitely not what is happening when Listeners bond with Voidspren, or their use of the powers this granted to them. This is implied by the fact we have seen that happen and the following WoB says that we haven't seen Voidbinding: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1152#71 Other than that, the OP is interesting, and I'm not sure it can be disproved as yet... But I believe more than five forms of power (other than Stormfather) are listed in the various Listener song snippets we have, which would indicate more than 16 Spren types capable of granting that level of power. (Having said that, I can only remember Nightform, Smokeform and Decayform off the top of my head...)

I see what you're getting at, but I've always interpreted that epigraph with Eshonai's musings on the Stormfather in mind: "One cannot be a traitor if one was not first a friend." (Paraphrased.) In that light, the "betrayal" of the spren suggests that, in "giving their surges to human heirs," they first withdrew themselves (and so whatever forms such powerful spren offer) from the Listeners. I don't think these forms offered surgebinding, as i have said, but that they would have offered forms more comparable to Voidforms in power, just without the Odium.

@Weltall While we do see them in WoR, we don't necessarily see them in Taravangian's rattle-harvesting-factory (in fact, I believe he mentions there being less of them recently...). Nevertheless, my point is that it doesn't make sense for the "rattle" to be a quote from Moelach if there are any further rattles from Taravangian's factory.

Is this the last recorded death rattle? I'm pretty sure it isn't, though don't have the books with me. If it is, indeed, not the last recorded rattle, why would Moelach say this through one person, then continue providing rattles to other "patients" in the same ward?

This feels to me, too, like a non-rattle; a man aware that he is being killed, and to what purpose, and intentionally defying that purpose. This is presumably the conclusion that led the recorder of the quote to state that the sample is largely useless. However, if this conclusion proves true, this is a further hint to the greater awareness of the Shin to such widely-ununderstood phenomena (in addition to the hints we have from Szeth regarding Stone Shamanism). Why? The man understands their purpose to a surprisingly high degree: not only has he deduced that they are killing people to record death rattles, but death rattles are, by his phrasing, understood by him to be responses to "truths seen" by the dying. This makes the sample noteworthy to real-life readers, if not directly to the in-book Diagram. On the other hand, this is a perfect opportunity for... Whatever the opposite of a red herring is :-P This could, in fact, be a death rattle of the kind described by the OP (though I don't believe it fits with what we know of Renarin's character, regarding the events at the end of WoR), dismissed both in world and IRL but, perhaps, the key to the entirety of the SA. Nevertheless, my bet is that it is not a rattle, I'm afraid. Just a garden variety surprisingly knowledgeable Shin sailor.

I'm with @Matrim here, terminologically. As Brandon has said that we hadn't seen Voidbinding up to the end of WoR, I would think Xbinding specifically relates to humans. I would say that maybe Radiant-spren bonding Listeners would produce Surgeforms, in complement to Voidforms... But then I think Voidforms is a term spawned on the Shard, so that might be going down the terminological rabbit hole :-P Firstly, that line suggests that the Listeners already have access to surges, just not the same manifestations/as powerfully. Also, I believe the same epigraph says something along the lines of, "We ask not if they will have us, then, but if we dare have them again." (Emphasis added.) Therefore those Spren have bonded with Listeners in the past. Withregards to whether or not they did(/will) grant surgebinding-like powers, perhaps that would be something new that they developed by mimicking Honor, or that is an artifact of the bond with a human as opposed to a Listener. I would guess it is more the latter, given the line you quoted talking of blending surges, rather than granting them, which suggests a different result than Surgebinding (as defined at the start of this post).

That matches my understanding, and is presented very clearly and logically :-) It also sets up Listeners bonding Radiant-spren (and so presumably having power closer to Radiant/Voidbringer levels) at the time of Humanity's arrival on Roshar, presumably with fairly benevolent intent similar to that of the original Radiants. This sounds like the Dawnsingers to me.

Actually, the Radiant who heals Dalinar in his vision with the Midnight Essence says that she doesn't want to use too much/waste Regrowth on Dalinar, after the initial healing of his more life threatening wounds. So that fabrial, at least, is explicitly a Regrowth fabrial. Edit: This, plus the Lift interlude, should be enough to set up the mechanics of the resurrection of Szeth with little-to-no ambiguity. However, the concept could probably be more clearly stated in that final scene for the film.

Holy chull-leavings, I'd never seen those stanza's side by side before. I can't decide which is a corruption of the other, but it seems clear that this is what happened. My suspicion is that Smokeform is a voidform, considered like human/Spren-leant surges in a similar way to Stormform. This would make the second stanza closer to the truth, with the first having lost enough words over time to leave a more favourable accounting of the form, once the lines are coerced to make some form of sense again. This is also a more likely way for meanings to change than people accidentally adding words...

I agree on the problems you see, but would almost argue for the opposite treatment: WoK + WoR in 3 movies! I think it is important to see the conflict riddling Alethka for the wider world building, so I would keep the fighting outside of the shattered plains, but move it to after the assassination and the Greatshell hunt, which run straight into each other. That way we get the disjunction between the anguish after Gavilars death and the complacency on the Shattered plains 6 years later, and also get the demonstration of Shards at their best before seeing Kaladin beat the Shardbearer (which, yes, would happen all in one sequence). Most of the time in the slave wagons can then be skipped, rather having a shot of Kaladin in the wagons reaching the shattered plains should be enough. From there we kind of agree, in terms of Sadeas, Dalinar and Adolin, and the general story progression. I think that Shallan's story should also happen more or less as is, but in a SECOND movie, released just after the second and going right up to the shattered plains thus providing a full arc from sheltered youth to independent young woman, providing some closure on Jasnah via Tyn and cutting into what needs to be covered in WoR. You could even use the original title planned for WoR, it being more appropriate here: The Book of Endless Pages. I would say realease it a little after WoK, because then you can have Kaladin's appearance, making sense after his being made a bodyguard on screen at the end of WoK. WoR can then proceed as per the book, largely, as the third film after a normal gap between sequels. I would say this probably wouldn't happen, as it means more movies... But we all saw what happened with the Hobbit...

Actually, "Skybreaker" suggests a rather more blunt approach than the grace implicit in "Windrunner". There is no reason that Skybreakers couldn't use Gravitation to get around, thereby delivering their Division-based judgement where it is needed much more quickly, but be inferior in actual aerial maneuverability to Windrunners. Much as Lightweavers and Willshapers can both interact with the cognitive realm, but Elsecallers are considered its masters because both of their surges relate to it directly. I like this theory a lot. However, I won't ascribe to it, because I believe the Ars Arcanum could be wrong about Adhesion being atmospheric pressure. Is there a WoB on it?

Well, he would from me, though that would make him a far worse fit for the prince charming trope that has been discussed, and so his meta-narrative would be greatly diminished. Nevertheless, assuming that all in-world characters treated him as they have (probably implausible, but necessary to reduce variables), I would still find his character interesting for all the reasons stated by @maxal* regardless of the 'ugly'ness attributed to him. Of course, if he was ugly and the in-world characters treated him accordingly, he would be an entirely different character... Making any comparison of fandom attention meaningless. *I don't see him as THE standout character of the series, but I value his importance, character and development on a par with the 'main' characters, despite his lesser 'screen time'**. **This is 'screen time' as discussed with regard to POV page count. I still maintain that a large part of the value and character development of Adolin is produced from other POVs in which he appears, glued together with snippets of internal monologue to give context to his actions. PS: It should be noted that I'm a fan of Parlin in Warbreaker, so... Maybe I just read too much into under-represented characters

Whilst the box is not related to the spren, as @maxal says, it is important to note that Pattern is always visible, but can make himself smaller, and often disguises himself as a small bit of detailing on Shallan's dress. Also, there is some evidence that Glys would be more similar to Pattern than Syl or Wyndle in this, assuming that both Ym and Renarin were, in fact, Truthwatchers: Ym's spren has to physically hide while Ym serves the street urchin, rather than just being invisible. So, where has Glys been hiding? Or is this another (tenuous) clue that Glys is not the same as Ym's spren??