Krandacth

As a separate point to that discussion, does this notion of a Spren "fitting" the specific result of trauma in a person's spiritweb have implications for reviving a Shardblade, and why it is so-difficult-but-maybe-possible? If a Spren were locked in its form (physically *and* spiritually) by the breaking of oaths, would it be revived if artificially grafted to a person who had a nearly identical spiritual reaction to some trauma, who then essentially reached the third ideal without the guidance of a bonded spren?

Do you have WoB that they don't also remain in the SR, and potentially longer than in the CR? Or just that MB: SH only portrays characters persisting in the CR? On that note, I'm sure I read a WoB somewhere (though after much searching I can't find it) that said that Vins' and Elend's experience of death was to float along the connections of the spiritual realm, remaining close to the places and people they loved. Or that might have been a Sharder theory... Anyway: I know it isn't. In my theory, when I move away from the canon examples, I refer to a lost "node", which *could* be a person, but doesn't need to be. In my counter example to your original post, I suggest that Kal could also be "snapped", if you will by being dismissed from the school at Kharbranth, if he had gotten that far. In the case of the FE, beating a child to death would cause them to lose their sense of being loved, perhaps, or their innocence. It should also be noted that we don't know how mistings/mistborn are allocated their abilities. That could also be based on their combined history, traumatic event and reaction to it, with the allomantic power whose sDNA best fits the hole torn by the trauma filling the gap: if it was based solely on sDNA then specific allomantic abilities would be hereditary, an there has been no indication of that, only general allomantic potential. This also fits with some of the most traumatised people (Vin and Kel) getting the most potent abilities. However, there is obviously more at play on Scadrial than we are aware of with regards to the part played by sDNA. Also, Radiants are on Roshar, not Sel. This seems unlikely, seeing as a person's spiritweb is unique within the spirit realm, and is a manifestation of that persons spiritual/emotional state. As such, any damage to that spiritweb will be representative of the effect the trauma had on that person, as evidenced by the resultant personality changes in that person. Suggesting that the spiritual damage from trauma is the same regardless of person or trauma is like saying the result of any form of physical harm (for example, an amputated foot) is a hole straight through the torso between the second and third ribs two inches left of the sternum (and no harm to the foot). Whether or not the nature of the damage has an impact on the potential Bond/other magic is a different point, and the point of my theory. That was one of my two examples, and actually the lesser one. It was Tanavast's cognitive shadow that merged with the Stormfather, which isn't stated to have anything to do with the spiritual manifestation of either. As in my original theory, the cognitive manifestation of the Spren is acknowledged to be pre-existing, regardless of previous modifications to this manifestation; it is the spiritweb that I am positing might change.

As a side note to the general direction of this discussion: I have a theory, posted in the Stormlight Archive board, that we may have already-kinda-maybe-ish seen Gavilar again, in some sense. It relates to the nature of the Nahel Bond and pseudo-reincarnation.

I imagine this WoB would also be relevant: So if you have already tacked one spren onto your sprit web, then another might be repelled by that spren (see Honorspren and Cryptics). Not all spren will be incompatible, but some might be even if their oaths align (Cryptics only seem to only need truths to be spoken, which is technically compatible with the Honorspren restriction on lying).

As with Taravangian's Intelect-Compassion dichotomy? Yeah, could well be.

As my reply to this got very long and discussion-like, I posted it in the original theory thread, here:

Response to ... the response... in the Questions for Brandon thread. This fits within what I asked. The hole is the evidence of their breaking, right? See the linked discussion for others using this terminology (I don't know its original source, I'm afraid). And the way they break, and the influence of that break on them, both depends on and influences what kind of person they are. To use your example: If Kaladin was another kind of man and experienced a similar traumatic event, he would likely attract a different kind of Spren. I posit that he would likewise attract a different Spren if he started as Kaladin pre leaving Hearthstone, but suffered a different traumatic event, such as dismissal in disgrace from the school in Kharbranth. The third follows directly from the notions that: the Spren must fit the hole in a person's spirit web that is the result of them being broken the better the fit the better the anchor for the Spren in the physical world each person's character and situation will be different in detail, if similar to others in broad terms, so Spren must also be somewhat flexible in order to be compatible. It also reflects the fact that the Bond fundamentally alters both participants, being symbiotic, rather than just the person. The last question is the one that is most pie-in-the-sky, I agree, but if the previous question proves true then it is a definite possibility.

I can confirm this. I've seen people complain that each book in that series doesn't have an arc as such, but that fits with the concept of the trilogy (a story dictated over 3 days, one book covering each day over which the story is told) so I don't mind it at all. The writing is amazing, and there is a lot that is not known but hinted at, and other realms, and... basically a lot of the abstract things that make Brandon's stories so awesome, but with a completely different kind of story and writing style. Also, the fact that he is writing the dictation of the story by one of the characters in that story sets up some interesting questions of perception/memory vs. reality... Anyway, I can also recommend most things by Stephen Donaldson. Though there are some rather dark adult themes in some of his stuff, I first picked up The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant at about your age and don't think I've suffered. The hallmark of Donaldson Fantasy is damaged people from our world being drawn into a fantasy world that fundamentally confronts their damage, and it lives up to the character development that promises. Mordant's Need is his shortest work, a two book fantasy epic about a woman who regularly feels like she doesn't really exist, and magic revolving entirely around mirrors. The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant are a trilogy of trilogies, each trilogy being an epic self-contained story. The main character is a Leper, and the magic of the world revolves around the dual concept of vitality through natural order, and chaos. He has also done possibly the most amazing space opera I've come across, a 5 book series called The Gap Series. The first book, by far the smallest, took the longest to read for both me and my Dad, as it is in a bizarre style, but... That series broke me and rebuilt me at least twice. I have always seen this as a good thing, but it is still something to bear in mind before you decide to try it. I can't vouch for Donaldson's real-world series, but it's called "The Man Who..." series. Maybe more adult even than his other works, as I believe the man in question is a clinically depressed alcoholic...

So, I have a theory I want to try to get confirmed, but when I try to phrase the question(s) it gets quite long winded. The theory is here: Possible questions: Given that the Nahel Bond involves a Spren filling a hole left by a traumatic event in the spirit web of a person: Does the effect of that event on the person's spirit web (the "shape" of the hole) dictate which "shape" of Spren they could bond with? e.g. the square peg/round hole analogy, or the correspondence between a protein and an enzyme? Does the progression of ideals reflect the adaptation of the Surgebinder's spirit web to better match the spiritual "shape" of the Spren, making a more perfect bond? Conversely, does the Spren have to initially adapt to fit the spiritual hole in order to form a Bond? [If yes to the last question] Does that mean that, in the case where the traumatic event was the death of a person, the Bonded Spren has become a functional reincarnation of that dead person, as far as the Surgebinder is concerned?

@Djarskublar I hadn't known the exact interaction of Splinters, investiture and the SR. But yes, this fits with the WoB implying that whatever isn't in the PR is the lesser gain. @hwiles While I hadn't formed the theory in the accepted terms, not being entirely sure of them, yes, this is basically what I meant. The precise inferrences you've drawn weren't exactly what I had observed, but only in that they are more specific, not in any way contradictory. One thing I'm not sure I'm clear on is the nature of the holes in one's spirit web. The reason I am unsure is that, from accepted descriptions I have read on here (but not sourced myself), when people die they persist in the SR by their ongoing Connections to other people, places, etc. If this is the case, then Kaladin's Connection to Tien still exists. Does this mean that any hole in Kal's web is related to the incident of his death, rather than than to Tien himself? Or, alternate interpretation: As a person is, spiritually, the sum of their connections, dead people continue to exist within the SR as a spiritual shadow, being the now-absent subject and object of Connections persisted by others. However, the absence of a "node", if you will, forms a hole (that node need not be a person). The part of that hole formed by Connections to a single person (henceforth "the bereaved") forms the hole in the bereaved's personal spirit web. Therefore something filling that hole for the bereaved necessarily takes on the "spiritual shape" of the lost "node"; if a dead person, the Spren (in this case) is essentially the reincarnation that dead person with respect to the bereaved. Or is this trying too hard to get a part of Tien and Gavilar back? Also, side note: does all this about spirit webs mean that anyone, from any planet and with any sDNA, could become a surgebinder on Roshar if they have suffered the right kind of trauma? As in, the Nahel Bond has nothing to do with the hosts original sDNA? Or does there also have to be a compatible sDNA marker, if you will, to facilitate the Bond? Edit: @cognizantastic I will, if I can boil it down to a pithy sentence Edit 2: Ok, not a pithy sentence, but 4 fairly solid questions.

@zeppomarks True, though I don't know what the stance is on Yolish (or other) populations gaining access to a planets magic system, when they seem to be "baked in" to newly created human populations or "gifted" only to specific individuals. Does their sDNA get over-written by the proximity of a Shard first investing in a planet, perhaps? And yes, that is an interesting distinction, and one that a Keeper (so, potentially, a Worldbringer) would definitely make. I'm not sure if this is important, or just a way to indicate that while Hoid is in both groups, he is not properly aligned with either. Which very much fits his character in general.

So, I've always noticed a similarity between Kal's impressions of Syl an Tien. This made me wonder if Syl was somehow a pseudo-reincarnation of Tien. But she has really old memories, so this seemed unlikely. Then I saw this WoB: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=836#26 This says most of what spren get is physical form and memory in the PR. So, what else do they get? I don't know as much of the spiritual realm as I'd like, but what I've gleaned is that it is a realm of connections. Spren seem to be cognitive manifestations of abstract concepts that are drawn to perceived instances of those concepts in the PR. Being abstract things, do they therefore lack connections (and so presence) in the SR? Kaladin has an unusually strong desire to protect, which drew Syl. That desire to protect initially was focused on Tien, with whom he had a very strong Connection. When he lost Tien, that connection remained, but the associated desire to protect became more generalised. Syl represents that desire to protect. So, in bonding with Kal and becoming the cognitive manifestation of his desire to protect, does she also tap into his spiritual connection to Tien, and so inherit some part of their emotional relationship? If so, does this count as pseudo-reincarnation? Whilst this started with the Syl-Kal-Tien relationship only, I have also noticed it applies to Dalinar-Stormfather-Gavilar. The Stormfather was drawn to Dalinar as a result of his desire to unify the kingdom, and hold rigidly to the codes (both presumed aspects of Bondsmiths). These are both desires tied strongly to the memory of his brother. Also, Dalinar always felt his brother was an unstoppable force that shaped those around him into what he needed them to be, making them better as a byproduct; this is clearly also true of highstorms (though whether this is a particular impression Dalinar holds regarding highstorms is unclear). The evidence of spiritual connection seems less obvious here, until Dalinar's final vision in WoR, just prior to bonding the Stormfather. In that vision, which the Stormfather did not consciously send, Dalinar felt as if Gavilar were in the next room (paraphrased). That suggests a spiritual connection to Gavilar manifested via the Stormfather. What this means for Pattern, Ivory, Glys... I think we need to know more. What do you guys think?

If that was citing Weiry to say my theory is disproved by WoB, I don't see how that source does so. If Sigzil is a descendant of Terris Worldbringers that hopped to Roshar pre-ascension, he would be 30th-generation Rosharan, approximately, and wouldn't have worldhopped himself. Also, if you argue that the question could mean, "Does he have solely Rosharan (spiritual) DNA?" then note the phrasing of the answer: Not "Yes", but the more specific "He is from Roshar."

Hi, long time reader, first time writing: I was thinking something similar to the OP recently, but was wondering if it isn't something more ancient-historical. Based on the following two facts, is it not possible that, at some point long ago, Terris culture crossed from Scadrial to Roshar, with Worldsingers being the Rosharan "branch" of the Worldbringers? 1) Realmatic theory was a part of the Terris religion (WoB: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=977#182) 2) Worldsingers and Worldbringers are more closely related than having similar names (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/1308-hoid-founded-the-worldsingers-and-worldbringers/#comment-22043) Regarding 1), does an institutionalised recognition of the cognitive realm not suggest knowledge of its uses, such as Worldhopping*? Regarding 2), this has been theorised to be referring to Hoid's involvement in/founding of both, but I have not seen this confirmed anywhere. Such an ancient inter-wolrd migration could explain the cultural and physical similarities noted in the OP (as well as others, such as Sigzil memorizing the words of Elohkar's [Dalinar's] proclamation in WoR chap.5 by repeating them), without requiring Sigzil himself to have Worldhopped. Points against this theory: Pre-Ascension Terris culture had no known reason to make eunuchs of their Worldbringers, so this should not explain Sigzils lack of beard or (probably referring to him) arms-too-long-for-his-body. Unless: this was an unknown trait of the Terris even prior to their treatment under the Lord Ruler; Sigzil was, "coincidently," made a eunuch for reasons specific to his personal history (allowing Brandon to leave these similarities with Sazed as hints). Where are the Rosharan Feruchemists? As it is usually a fairly subtle magic, and the Rosharan peoples seem to enjoy keeping things from each other, maybe it is simply a secret. Perhaps it has been lost. *This ties into a wider theme of Lost Knowledge in the Cosmere (pre-ascension Terris religion, the 5 Scholars, the Elantris libraries, every pre-Desolation civilisation) that I have not seen mentioned much, though my research has been far from extensive. Worldhopping seems to have been known about, or at least theorised, on most worlds seen, but this knowledge has been lost (or hidden) sometime prior to the first book on each. Edit: Apologies for thread necromancy, when there are other more recent related threads. I got to this one via google, and is the closest related to what I thought.