Erklitt

O man, do you realize the wasps' nest you just stuck your hand in ? There's been some discussion of this - and some very passionate opposition. I think the latest was in the Adolin's Fate thread.

Please, read a post to the end before replying. (Edit: Or maybe you just misunderstood me?) I was quoting that theory of Lirin being an 'old' KR but not endorsing that, rather @WindCallers idea that Lirin might NOW turn into a KR. And while I don't think that is extremenly likely, I do think it's possible.

Thanks, @Pathfinder for this voice of reason and common sense !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I really don't think that's it. I see two other reasons for defending Jasnah and being critical of Adolin. One is a tendency of many humans to become devil's advocate. When there's a wide-spread tendency in one direction some people - including me - like to take the other side. In the case of Jasnah and Adolin there's (at least for probably 95 % of all readers) no question who is the more likeable character. Jasnah is cold and aloof while Adolin laughs with little darkeyed children. So when Adolin and Jasnah are in direct comparison and Adolin at first has all the sympathies, then there will be some resistence, if only for justice's sake. And the moment we feel Adolin gets some undue advantage due to his likeable personality, Jasnah's defence (and Adolin's condemnation) will become fierce. It's like we feel the more likeable a character is the more harsh we need to be in our judgment - if we want to claim any impartiality that is. And strong defenses on the grounds that he is such a nice guy will just make us more determinded to be impartial. The other - and stronger - reason is that I think many feel like the justice systems of our own world and time are far from perfect too. They have their own in-built injustices. And while in real life we have no defense against that, a fantasy novel gives us a chance to judge differently - more justly as we feel it. Jasnah's case is ideal for this. There's a lot of evidence that in current western societies, perpetrators are much better protected then victims. Just one example: in Germany someone was attacked by four or five rogues. Someone else helped that person, breaking a nose in the process. Now the helper is accused of assault: he should have been more 'moderate' in the force he used. Another case: an old man surprised a burglar in his own house. He had a gun and pointed it at the burglar, the burglar turned to flee and the old man shot anyway. The burglar was killed. Technically, the old man shot a person in flight. But what do you expect: being woken in the middle of the night, finding a strange man in your house, being frightened and confused while barely awake: was that shot really 'wrong'? Jasnah's case ties strongly into stories like that. Her first kill was evidently self-defense. But were her other kills really 'wrong'? Venting our frustration with that kind of judgment is really venting our frustration with the legal systems we currently have. It's the rage at a kind of 'justice' that is far more concerned with offenders not being treated too harshly than with protecting victims. And those strange evaluations of Jasnah's behavior (like even her first kill was wrong - "why did she have to go there in the first place?!" as if it was a moral duty to stay away from dangerous places so as not to endanger the villains by our readiness to self-defend!!! ) !!!!

In other words: there's a Chekhov's gun ready and loaded. It has to go off: if not in this world, then from the grave. If Eshomai is truly dead, then we'll just have to hear her ghost screaming...

Granted, Your dream becomes true: you have an exclusive Q&A with Brandon, no-one else allowed, and he has promised not to RAFO you on anything. He has one condition: you wont tell anybody anything about what you've learned. So, what of your bane? The truth is: you don't need any special bane. Imagine coming back to this forum: you have all the answers, but are not allowed to share. Even your real life friends have stopped talking to you about any Sanderson books, because they can't stand your air of superiority ('I know how it will be') coupled with your complete silence on all related topics. Reading Sanderson books becomes a very lonely occupation for you from now on... PS: And don't you even dream of betraying his trust! If you let one single thing slip, every Sanderson book you open in the future will only have blank pages.) I wish the pizza I just ordered had no calories while retaining its full taste and texture.

You could be right, but I think this is not quite clear: When Eshonai speaks to the other Listeners after bonding a stormspren she's lying (WoR I8 p 406 kindle) Earlier, she thinks of him as a traitor because he 'had chosen to protect humans instead of the listeners. (WoR I5 p 395) That doesn't necessarily include a direct bonding - it could be allowing his honorspren to bond humans, or any other kind of help The songs speaking about the betrayal of spren by bonding humans rather then listeners don't explicitly mention the Rider of Storms So I think @Jondesu's theory still viable.

Just for information: Of course, Mraize might be lying. But if her brothers are really coming, that would be a short-lived lie, so I don't believe that. I strongly disagree. Who she killed matters a great deal, because who she killed was four thugs who were trying to murder her, while Sadeas was at that moment no direct physical threat. I won't say more because I don't want to set that legal discussion going again, but this is a distinction that matters!!

Exactly, good catch!

There have even been theories about that Lirin is an ageless / immortal Knight Radiant of the one faithful order who's been around since the recreance but I think there's a WoB that more or less made that theory void (though I don't recall what exactly that WoB was about). But I think there's no doubt Lirin's ideals are pretty well aligned with KR in general and Windrunners in particular. So, if he can get past the hurt of Tien's death and Kaladin's temporary abandonment, and, more importantly, his Vorin condemnation of the KR, he should in fact be pretty proud of his son. And maybe a KR or at least a squire himself.

@WindCaller Kudos! That was very well put.

@Argel @hwiles Actually I think a breeding farm does work, but what Argel describes is a big part of the reason for the high prices. A criminal or debtor can be sold just as they are without further investment, while Parshmen are a product of 'intensive cultivation'. It's in the breeders' own interest not to flood the market with too high numbers, which would destroy the prices. And the reason why not everyone owns a Parshman is the same as why not everyone with a lawn in our world owns a riding mower: the upkeep wouldn't be too expensive for most people, they are just too expensive to buy, and as long as your lawn is small enough that you can handle it without one... . On second thought, even the upkeep of a Parshman is not quite so trivial: they need a place to sleep at least, and I don't think you want them in your own bedroom. Just remember how small the house of Kal's parents was. And what's the alternative? The Parshmen's owners doing their own breeding, which is 1) quite possible and 2) almost the same thing, just on a smaller scale. And they would have the trouble of having to 'educate' them. That's actually much easier to do on a farm. The one thing that I'm pretty sure won't happen is Parshmen choosing a partner and deciding to have children all by themselves.

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Full points minus 1/2 that wasn't meant to be Syl but Kaladin's spear point, thought I should show that since I showed everybody else's weapon (5 Shardblades and 1 war hammer). Anyway, congrats, your turn! (Edit: I called the piece 'Honor is dead' )

Alright, I'm sure this is so easy as to be almost an insult. But I so wanted to draw this...

Nothing uncanny about it - I had scanned through that chapter for my previous post on this thread . And yes: yay for ebooks. The more accurate phrasing would have been: I don't have my kindle about me right now. Without it, I'm sure I would post far fewer quotes here, because they would be so much more trouble to find. About seeing no young Parshmen, I just got a horrible idea. Maybe there are breeding farms somewhere, sequestered away from sensitive eyes. Given a parshman's worth, it would be a very lucrative trade.

First stew night ever? "Figures shifted inside the barrack, shadows moving. The door was open..."

Nice idea about the highstorm births. And every Parshendi couple takes great care in timing their offspring not to be ready for birth right at the beginning of the weeping... However, the Parshendi's wondering about the Parshmen might be because they've never seen an adult in slaveform. Yet when I think about it, it's really hard to imagine that Parshendi children are as dull and slow of wit as slaveform. Maybe the word slaveform isn't applicable to them? Maybe they don't have a spren and don't need one until they reach a certain age. When Eshonai visits her mother the mother seems to be stuck in some moment in the past and talks about 'your sister's first [?]'. I don't have the book about me right now to check the word she uses, but it clearly refers to her going out in a highstorm to find or change her form for the first time. It's evidently a ritual, a rite of passage. So maybe what goes before is simply not comparable to adult forms.

Granted. On your next visit to your favorite steak house, the server offers you a free porterhouse steak. You accept and eat with relish. The steak has a pungent yet not unpleasant taste. You comment on that to the server, who explains it's origin: the dog had stolen the steak from the grill and taken it to the dungheap to eat, but the cook could save it at the last moment and return it to the grill. (Why did you think it was free?) I wish my toothache were gone.

Good question. I imagine one way it could work is if Shallan's mother wasn't really in the group, just either interested in their cause or romantically involved with a member (or both - the former possibly a consequence of the latter). Anyway she told only one member about Shallan, who went home with her without talking to anyone else about it. If Lin got rid of the stranger's body, that group might now just have a missing member but no idea about Shallan's existence. The highprince's bastard investigating the murder seems only interested in the death of 'a lighteyed woman', so the second death might never have been widely known.

At some time, Kaladin will have to stop considering himself as a slave. I could imagine that facing his past, dealing will all those reunions (pleasant and unpleasant), especially dealing with Roshone in a mature way, might help him there.

First: your guess is as valid as mine, I can only rely on my gut in this. And: welcome to the shard, have an upvote for your first post! I have no information to invalidate your theory. And I'm relatively new too, so I wouldn't know about old threads. I think we newbies are perfectly free to discuss whatever we wonder about, no matter what happened here three years ago. Just two thoughts: 1) The ability you're talking about sounds like something that might rather be part of the Bondsmiths' portfolio. They are all about forging - and so probably releasing - bonds. Many theorize that Dalinar's ability to unbond the madman's shardblade so quickly (in WoR ch. 89 The Four p. 1072 kindle edition ) was due to him just having become a Bondsmith. I think they have a point. 2) I understand the surges primarily as the ability to control / override physical laws. There may be more than that, especially in the specific benefits the orders get from their particular combination of surges. But this is how I view the surges themselves, taken individually. In this way, I understand the surge of division as something counteracting physical or chemical cohesion. You have water - the surge of division might split it to hydrogen and oxygen. You have a rock - the surge of division might split the molecular connection and reduce it to dust. So, to my mind, no cognitive or spiritual realm is involved. However, that's my subjective view. And I think you might be right about the Skybreakers: I think those specific benefits of the orders go beyond their surges, and for them 'division' might have a cognitive and spiritual dimension, granting them those special abilities to divide the innocent from the guilty that's described in the in-world book 'Words of Radiance'.

Not that I believe Mraize to be the most honest character, but in this case I think he probably told the truth. Gavilar as a Son of Honor seems to have been expecting an assassination attempt from the Ghostbloods: Thaidakar is the first one he thinks of as Szeth's likely employer. Jasnah with her whole troop of assassins probably got wind of that in some measure. I have no proof whatsoever, but my gut sais Shallan's mother was something different from just a devout Vorin believer. That 'friend' she brought to kill Shallan sounds like some contact from an esoteric group, and anyway, killing your own child? I cannot imagine that being an option in any case in Vorinism, not even when the child turns out to be a surgebinder. After all Vorinism is all about bettering oneself, growing towards worthy goals and the attributes of the Almighty. What kind of group Shallan's mother was part of, however, is beyond me at the moment. In fact, from the parties we know so far, Nalan's perverted Skybreakers (who I think are not the true order) would fit best with their overall anti-surgebinder campaign.

I think Slaveform most likely, simply because every other form requires a spren. So either at conception or at birth (whenever the form is determined), there would have to be a 'fitting' spren around. And so far our information is that spren-bonding only happens during highstorms. Edit: @Jondesu We don't see them, but there must have been children in Narak. When Rlain and Dalinar talk after meeting again on the Shattered Plains, Rlain says: Earlier Eshonai mentions children, too: That sounds like children currently do live in the camp.

Slightly off topic, but not very much: (Maybe this has been discussed at length in the past, but if so, I couldn't find it, and it seems to fit here anyway) What do you think about Rlain's spying activities? Did he have a contact he reported to regularly in the warcamps, or was he 'deeply undercover' without any connection to his people? I've wondered whether Eshonai's desire to talk to Dalinar could have anything to do with Rlain. Maybe he learned to respect Dalinar through being with Bridge Four, even if his being allowed to carry a spear happened much later. Anyway, I think he probably did have some source of information: he left about the time Eshonai adopted Stormform. He must have heard that something important, maybe something bad, was going on in Narak. Maybe he has already been playing a bigger part behind the scenes than is quite evident at first sight. (There's also the fact that the Parshendi learned from humans that spren can be captured, but Rlain wasn't exactly in the best position to find that information. At least not after he was assigned to Bridge Four.)