Erklitt

Ok, first: sorry if my one-liner came out rather rude. I apologize. I just get a little frustrated sometimes about an occasional phenomenon of which this thread is a good example: I guess all of us sometime state half-remembered or misremembered WoBs as fact, that's human and in itself isn't a problem. But when someone else remembers something different, often the facts aren't checked, instead everyone continues on their own assumptions, and true discussion becomes harder and harder. Since such different memories of WoBs concerning the god orders / surges were cited here, I decided to do a thorough search of WoBs for the topic and bring us all on the same page - to avoid that very phenomenon. I think I was pretty thorough, searching theoryland for the order names, surge names, and various expressions like 'god surge', 'god order' etc., each individually, so as not to miss anything. And I was surprised to find that Brandon never (as far as I can find) mentioned the existence of 'god orders' and didn't really take to the expression 'god surges' either - all that was interpretation. Not necessarily wrong, but still interpretation. So, I read your post and thought: "Hey, I just showed there is no such WoB! That all came from the one about Syl and Wyndle!" But I realize that 1) I didn't mention how thorough my search had been and 2) even if I had of course you didn't have to believe I'd found everything. And if there is really such a WoB about the Edgedancers and Windrunners being god orders and I missed it, I'd sure like to know!

Just go up three posts from your own. Last quote. Actually reading what went before sometimes helps...

The nobles beat their children near the point of death to see if they snap, afterwards I'm sure they test them. As for skaa, wealth and rebellion would not be enough, it also takes knowledge. While skaa seem to be aware there are people with strange powers known as Allomancers, I don't think the connection to certain metals is general knowledge. So the real percentage of skaa Mistings would be lot higher then the known figures. I also always put this scene down to Sigzil's personality, and I still think that's probably it. But that scene with Teft is somehow suggestive... @Khyrindor Nice idea.

No, it's Teft's. AFAIK, we have no Sigzil POVs. Whether the problem is instinct or lack of metals, each could be the reason in both cases. You made me wonder: how do skaa Mistings discover their Allomancy at all? How do they realize they've snapped, if they never imbibe their metal by accident and no one tests them? After the mist sickness it takes Elend's sudden idea to find the new Mistings. What was it like for Clubs, for example? How does one discover that one can burn copper? That may actually be a hole in the Mistborn world building... anyway, so let's say Sigzil never imbibed pewter or tin. They do have tin cups on Roshar (just checked), but that doesn't mean Sigzil regularly drinks from one. As to your second argument: who says Hoid didn't teach him? Do we know he isn't doing it on purpose? Without a Sigzil POV we really cannot tell. The biggest question for me is: why would Hoid give his lerasium to Sigzil? But he's Hoid, so asking a 'why' question is not likely to get an answer anytime soon. Edit: Sigzil is a very reticent man. Again, I don't think this whole theory very likely, but in my opinion it's not quite impossible that Sigzil could hide such a secret.

Certainly a very interesting idea. @Sam Script Maybe it's a good idea to put a 'Mistborn Spoilers' marker in the topic title, or we will have to put half of our arguments in spoiler boxes. I'm not sure Hoid could have made him an Allomancer by accident - I have no idea how anyone could become an Allomancer outside Scadrial except through a lerasium bead. I see only two possibilities: - Sigzil is a Worldhopper - Hoid gave him his lerasium Both might be possible. - Sigzil is called Azish, but that might be a cover. I can find no solid reason against Sigzil being a Worldhopper, - And Hoid had that bead. I tend to think this excerpt from Hoid's letter is about the lerasium bead: While Sigzil might be considered a 'good home', the latter half doesn't seem to fit - except if the letter was written while they were still together, and Sigzil was under Hoid's protection. Possible - we know Hoid actually did some protecting ('saving him'). And I might misinterpret that passage anyway. One more point in support: there are brass plates used on Roshar. He could have the trace minerals in his stomach. There's no mention of pewter anywhere in SA so far (kindle search is a great help in such things). So, in case he's a Mistborn, there's no problem about why he doesn't manifest extraordinary strength and speed. The other metals are probably not used so easily by instinct - see Vin. So my conclusion: quite possible! Though I'm not sure I think it likely... but I like the idea!

So, with all this second hand information what Brandon did or did not say, I searched for various related catchwords. This is what I came up with: That's really not much to go by, and throws my earlier speculations right off again. But maybe it will help the discussion.

They know at least a simplified version, and understand what it means (and with 'they' I mean interested scholars, like Jasnah): There's a rather militaristic version under the archway of chapter headings with non-standard POVs, and I think I've seen an even simpler version somewhere (just spheres and lines), but I can't remember where. I would expect them to find the original at Urithiru , it certainly wasn't a big secret. What I find interesting is that 4 orders have 4 connections to other orders, while the rest have only three. Assuming the lines between the orders mean anything. Each order has a connection to those next to it and to the one opposite; Windrunners, Edgedancers, Lightweavers and Stonewardens have an additional connction 'three orders up / down'. So: if Windrunners and Edgedancers are the orders closest to the two 'benevolent' shards, what about the other two? What is the balance here? I don't think we can fit Odium in here, the KR were created to fight him (or rather his desolations). Maybe the right hand side is the 'shard-centered' side, the left hand one the 'human-centered'? Truthwatchers and Bondsmiths stand in the middle as 'liaison' - for the Bondsmiths at least a very fitting position. And judging from Renarin's character the same could be true for the Truthwatchers. Windrunners and Edgedancers somehow combine and work together as the 'shardic backbone' of the KR, Lightwatchers and Stonewardens as the 'human backbone'? Now it gets pretty speculative I admit... Edit: what I just dubbed the 'human side' also contains the three orders that have a special connection to Shadesmar. Vague ideas why they are somehow 'opposed' to the shardic side: Humans dabbling with the Cognitive Realm directly... spren created by the workings of the human mind (the Cryptics' 'mathematical identity' - Patterns true name would be numbers - would fit that)... Edit2: Oh, and hello @FourthBridge, welcome to the Shard!

Thanks for bringing this up again, though no one seems to want to hear it. I vote this thread is renamed: how would USA law apply to SA characters. Which is a topic that I seem to remember having seen discussed at length on other threads... Also your latest post: I'm sure Alethi and Jah Keved laws followed common sense as opposed to modern legal hairsplitting.

About the quick unbondings: I think we just have to admit that even Brandon is not absolutely perfect. I believe that the reason for Danlinar just sticking his Blade into the ground without any visible unbonding process in WoK is that at that time, this process hadn't yet been defined. Szeth is different: he had an Honorblade, and there is a WoB that Honorblades can't be bound, they can only be given. So just mentally 'giving it back' or rather 'reject the continuation of the gift' might be enough. As for Dalinar quickly unbonding the second blade, I had always thought the Stormfather did that. But I like the idea of that being due to Dalinar's newfound strength with bonds.

Was Kaladin made a slave illegally? I don't know either, but my guess would be yes. Kaladin had committed no crime. Amaram does have great power over the people living on his land, he can draft soldiers against their will for example. But make a soldier a slave without good reason? I don't think so. In the case of Shallan, I think you are projecting too much of modern day western legal systems into Alethi laws. And even today, when the only way to stop an attacker from killing you or a third party is to kill them first, that is not illegal. The latter gives the same right as self defense, and Shallan was protecting Balat. I agree that the way she killed her father wouldn't count as such a case under modern law - when he slowly came to after the poisoning, they should have been able to restrain him somehow without killing him. But I doubt such niceties can be projected to Jah Keved. Same with Jasnah: she killed men who had tried to kill her. Her first kill was definitely not illegal, wouldn't even have been today. She was allowed to go where she went. She was attacked, her life was threatened. The attackers were physically stronger and had superior numbers. The only means to defend herself against them was her ability to soulcast. How else could she have kept Shallan and herself alive? Killing the other three after they had turned to flee of course wouldn't stand as self-defense under modern law, but again: that's a very modern point of view. They had just tried to kill her.

Just ... WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!! for that haunted look on Laral's face where she wears the bride's prayer. Honestly, I didn't realize something like that was even possible in that kind of 'comic inspired' style. (And I sure hope I'm not treading any dangerous ground here with that wording - I am such a non-artist )

I'm absolutely not into the who's who of cover art, but I remember reading that artist is very well known and it was Brandon's dream to have him one day paint the cover for a book of his. So my guess is his instructions just weren't clear enough, and he's too famous for arguing with him about it afterwards.

Read the scene again - you're probably right. I remembered it rather as Nale sending Szeth to Shinovar. But it does rather sound like Nale is coming along.

I think Nale could be mad enough that finding someone with one surge that might make them an Edgedancer would be reason enough for him. But I agree that theory is out, for other reasons (see above) You're absolutely right! I guess I had taken it for granted that he just came there to get Szeth and so never made that connection. I'm beginning to think Nale could turn into a great problem with the Adolin situation, were he to show signs of bonding (as I almost expect). Trumped up old charges are one thing, but a recent manslaughter might be much harder for Elhokar to pardon without losing all credibility as king. His hold on power is tenuous enough as it is.

I think I just found (almost) proof against the 'Nale hunts only Edgedancers' theory. I read the Newsletter Lift story again for clues what made them 'huntworthy', and instead found this: Wyndle doesn't sound like he's one of many of his kind who were sent. I rather get the impression he was the only one; there may have been a few. But so many that Nale could 'kill his way across Roshar'? Well, maybe some spren have been 'host-hopping' after a murder. But still, it doesn't seem to fit.

I'm beginning to think I need to get the hardcovers just for those extras, even though I probably will never actually read them. I imagine they must be rather bulky, and I like reading with the book held in one hand, which makes the kindle just ideal.

The points made here are too good to ignore, especially about Ym's personality and his asking for stories fitting the Edgedancer oath. I just re-read the Nale-Lift scene. If he is hunting Edgedancers, then he's being pretty straightforward about it. I had taken his "You are an Edgedancer" as meaning "You are a surgebinder", but whatever he means he seems to be honest. And he states as his reason for pursuing her that she 'dabbles in arts that could return desolation to this world'. So I think the question would be: what is it about Edgedancers that is more likely to bring a desolation than the doings of any other KR order? What do we know about them? The in-world WoR states they are deadly, but I don't think they are more so then some other orders. And they are graceful, articulate and refined. We know they are compassionate, and we know their surges. And their first specific oath. Maybe there's something in the 'rememberance'? "I will remember those who have been forgotten" sounds innocent enough, but maybe Edgedancers tend to remember more than they should. Things that, if remembered, can bring a desolation?? Still no real idea what that could be... Edit: I just thought of another reason why Nale isn't going to the Shattered Plains. (So, one more argument against him hunting only Edgedancers) He always adheres to the laws of the land and accepted Gawx's pardon of Lift. (Only while she was there of course, but still.) And Elhokar could pardon any crime Nale might dig out for Dalinar and co. Dalinar says so clearly, in the Kaladin affair: "You can pardon any crime, as king." Maybe Nale just knows he can't touch the Surgebinders once they are under the protection of the Alethi crown, so he tries to find the 'budding ones' before they make it there.

@Ari Thanks for the info! I really appreciate it. Found out about Dragonsteel's BYU existence in the meantime, after being stymied by seeing so many references to it, especially on the coppermind, without any traces of a published book available for sale. So yesterday I started a determined search of WoB's ... Thinking back, I believe I had somehow inferred that Dragons were the native race of Yolen, which I knew from the Liar of Partinel fragment and thought to be the same world Dragonsteel was set on; so to my mind Hoid being from that world automatically made him a Dragon. Anyway, I've accepted the inevitable and changed my signature slightly... (which is the main reason behind my disappointment that Hoid is NOT a Dragon ) Whitespine just doesn't work quite as well ... but at least it's in the text.

@What's a Seawolf? Great idea about the city being important here. I never thought about it before, but Sesemalex Dar gets a surprising coverage for a city we've never even been to in the story. What with Kaladin seeing it in his dream, asking Sigzil about it and getting a ton of information in return - and then those mentions connected to its ruler. There has to be something about it beyond its tourist sights.

I wonder whether Ym ever took such a quiz... Honestly, I like the idea of such a quiz in principle. But with the little information we have so far we really could quite as well draw lots. Or ask Renarin.

@ParadoxSpren, @Eki The last vision was a very little bit of foresight, and Honor himself says he is bad at it. It's not really his thing, just like Syl says. ('Foretelling the future is not of Honor' or something like that.) @ParadoxSpren Maybe I missed something in your argument: I don't see why Renarin's spren being of Cultivation would make it necessary to keep it a mystery? Wyndle is at least close to Cultivation too, and we have seen him. @Yata Certainly possible. But I don't think so. For one thing, that doesn't sound like too big a spoiler if we realized that. So Nale may come for Renarin someday - is that reason enough for such a mystery? It won't be the only danger Renarin will be in. The second reason I don't think so is the Lift excerpt from the newsletter. The third reason is my 'The Faithful Order hides as the Shin leadership, and Nale hunts them' theory of a few days ago. http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/55169-the-stone-shamans-and-the-faithful-order-extended-version/ I do agree though that in the special texture of Lift's POV, there's a lot of potential for red herrings, which might void reason 2. 1 is a matter of taste, and 3 is just my own woolgathering, so you might be on to something.

Not very creative, I know, but possibly Ishar? Setting himself up as God-King would fit the description of a 'pious / guiding' herald run rampant.

The truth is we don't really know. But many think (myself included) that Renarin used Dalinar's knife. On every occurence, he was or could have been nearby. Honor's visions are not really foresight, while the glyphs are. And in the oathgate control room (? did that room have a name?) Renarin writes those zeroes which seem to be the end of the countdown. So there's some evidence pointing to him.

Maybe Glys looks like small brown bubbles clinging to objects nearby? Do Alespren bond? Sorry, just kidding! Couldn't help myself... Actually, I didn't know about that WoB but wondered why we didn't see Glys after we'd already seen Ym's spren. (I think he's a truthwatcher, although I wouldn't think it entirely impossible that Edgedancer's spren can differ so widely as Ym's spren and Wyndle. They do have some similarities.) Syl has seen stormspren / voidspren about ... I'd hate a storyline where Renarin turns bad. But what about a storyline where he resists the influence of a bad or corrupted spren, once he realizes what it is? Stays 'good', maybe even 'converts' his spren? I'd like to see that... (And something like 'converting spren' needs to be possible, considering Dalinar and the Stormfather.) IIRC Foretelling is of Cultivation. I think Syl's and Vorinism's warning against it has to do with their alignment with Honor (and the history of the Hierocracy) but I don't think we need to accept their verdict that it is bad in itself. Even Honor did a little foretelling in the visions he shows Dalinar.