Erklitt

On the romance topic: what I like very much about how Brandon treats the topic in his books is that he shows us many married couples with at least a working, often a happy relationship. Maybe too high a percentage compared to the real world, but I don't mind that at all. It's not just those whose romance we saw on screen. Look at Lirin and Hesina. Rock and Tuaka (whose name I had to look up). Sadeas and Ialai. Even Roshone and Laral. And several about whose married lives we know nothing but that they work together (officers and their wives) which can only work longtime if the relationship is up to a certain par. Couldn't have said it better! I'll add Raoden and Sarene and even Dalinar and Navani to the list I love.

@alder24 Well, let's wait and see - or in Brandons words: RAFO Edit: Thanks, I had completely overlooked that. You have a point there. But that still doesn't account for fast travel between Tukar and Shinovar, and for his lackeys having to follow Radiant spren over vast distances through Shadesmar. Maybe he just learned that from Dalinar? Or whatever. Anyway: RAFO.

@alder24 Thanks for giving me a chance to think through and elaborate on a few more points. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. That doesn't affect this theory either way. Even if they didn't, the statement that the Shin serve the heralds now might still be true. Neturo might have been a resistance fighter or he might have given up and acted exactly as Ishar says. Szeth has no way of knowing, and neither do we. Again: it's irrelevant in this context. Also, truly worshipping someone but not obeying them would be a strange state of mind. There's about three months between the end of WoK and the end of OB. My point was the darkening is fairly recent, recent enough to allow Chana to be the cause. It would have taken her time to get there and set up her rule - and her rules. So the timeline still works. Ishar has a lot of things to do. Rule Tukar for example. I would bet there's more behind that than just 'taking care' of a nation as a benevolent ruler. Dalinar finds him at the Tukar - Emul border, that's quite a way from Shinovar. Also, he is busy trying to bring Radiant spren into the PR. His Honorblade doesn't grant flying and he has no access to the Oathgates, so he wont be moving around very quickly. His operatives in Shadesmar need to travel quite a bit in their attempt to kidnap Radiant spren, so he has no easy way for travel between PR and CR without Oathgate or perpendicularity either. As I see it, he went to Shinovar, got his Honorblade and did whatever else to turn the Shin from the unmade to the heralds, then left again. In his few lucid moments he tells Dalinar to meet him there, because in those moments he understands that there is a big problem there (in part started by him) that needs to be solved, so he plans to go there. But I don't see any hints that he's a resident ruler there. He might be quite content to let Chana keep the Shin in check.

This OP doesn't really contain WaT spoilers, but I think answers might, so I placed it here. Let me start with a few quotes: Yes, I know Ishar is not trustworthy, but he might still say some true things. And Szeth's information is clearly out of date, so there might be more truth in Ishar's words than Szeth thinks possible, even though we can assume Ishar's actions in Shinovar weren't as benevolent as he tries to assert. As far as I know we have no timeframe for this, so it could be quite recent. Also, it's confirmation of Ishar's statement that the Shin worship the heralds. Now, a few assumptions: ...which I think are likely, although I know we can't be certain: Based on the quotes above, the Shin worshipped the unmade for a while, but now they worship the heralds. The widely spread Chana theory is true. (Chana Davar died minutes before Gavilar.) At the time of Rysn's visit to Shinovar, which happened during WoK, Shinovar had not yet gone dark. Chana broke near the end of WoK, sending Taln stumbling into Kholinar. So where is Chana now? We know the current whereabouts of all but Vedel and Chana, and Vedel might just have a successful little assassination business going. It is only Chana whom we are pretty sure we have never seen on screen, apart maybe from Shallan's flashbacks. If the 'Vedel is Lizz' theory is true we saw all of them in WoK except Chana (though in Ishar's case, we only heard him talked about). Brandon couldn't show her to us because she was on Braize. But she has been back on Roshar since roughly the end of WoK. One of her attributes was brave, so I would expect her to be a coward now. She might have gone as far away from the coming dangers (Everstorm, Parshendi fighters etc.) as she could, and try to sit out the whole Desolation. Where better than in a land that was always isolationist and now worships the heralds? She could have ordered them to go completely dark so as to have nothing to do with anything that is going on. And as she was once obedient, she might now enjoy playing Lord Ruler.. In short, Chana might hide - and rule - in Shinovar. I think it all fits. What do you think?

I think you might be on to something there! Add to the facts you've mentioned that, although it was mostly through conquest, the Sunmaker and his descendant Gavilar both had a thing about 'uniting', just like Dalinar has now, though in a more peaceful fashion. And the Sunmaker's Blade was named Oathbringer. Oaths and Bonds are practically used as synonyms by the Stormfather... And there is this quote from the prologue: Yes, there is definitely something there.

For the herald option, it seems clear to me: he wants to replace himself with someone else in the oathpact to escape the torture. I admit the switch from 'herald' to 'champion' makes that a little less likely, but I still think it possible that Ishar is now harping on the 'champion' idea only after having successfully nudged Gavilar into thinking he really means herald. And if that is true, Chana's death changes a lot. He thought he had enough time for his plans: after Taln has upheld the oathpact for so long, why shouldn't he continue to do so? But with Chana's death, the next desolation is suddenly on the doorstep. Ishar is 'not ready': he doesn't have a replacement yet. And 'they mustn't see [or] know', because if [presumably the other heralds] knew, they'd probably come to him for guidance pretty soon, robbing him of the chance to surprise them with his successor and a relieved 'Too late, I'm out.' As for Nale and Kelek being guided by Ishar, we have this WoB:

Kaladin travelling with a copy of 'The Way of Kings' MUST be significant somehow! A very good catch! And yet I doubt this is exactly what will happen, because the words have to be spoken with the right intent. Doing that accidentally? One could imagine someone not knowing anything about becoming a herald yet being in the right mindset ('I want to protect the world'), and then saying those words. Yet, lacking any knowledge that this will result in becoming a herald, that's just not 'intent enough' for my taste. Especially since it includes a huge sacrifice. Also, in my opinion, Kaladin is absolutely destined for the 5th ideal. Anyway I hope that 'the heralds are gone' from KoWaT means there really are no more heralds, rather than meaning they are all on Braize for a new oathpact. The lattter is just so horrible. But supposing there is a new oathpact with new heralds: Kaladin and Szeth are together on this journey. Szeth might hear whatever Syl reads to Kaladin. And I just realized while thinking about this that if anyone could be considered to be 'herald material', it would be Szeth. Used to a lot of suffering, even preferring it very much to non-existence, haunted by his past deeds - if anyone would welcome physical suffering as a means to atone for his sins and become an agent for good, it would be him. That physical suffering might actually be easier for him to bear than the voices. And the shin know a lot about the heralds (Szeth to Ishar in RoW: 'We have kept your secrets'), Szeth (or both of them) might learn more about the oathpact in Shinovar. Again: Kaladin travelling with a copy of 'The Way of Kings' MUST be significant somehow. And this is my best guess right now.

I loved both chapters. Especially the ends were so moving! Syl's chull ! And her now being Kaladin's scribe ! And Adolin has met Sureblood's spren !

Coming back to what I said earlier in this thread: @CognitiveShadow's response resonated with me: There have been good reasons posted against this. I tend to think it unlikely myself now. But it still rattled on in my head, and one crazy idea struck me: Supposing the idea is true that a new Radiant bonded to Tien's former spren is behind the rock in Kaladin's pack... How hilarious would it be if it were GAZ? By way of apologizing...

I don't think that's a problem here. It took Syl a very long time to remember her old knight, but her bond with him had been far advanced and this made the separation traumatic. There was this honorspren that Kaladin tried to armwrestle into offering a bond to Rlain after his former knight had died, and he didn't appear to have memory problems. So when a knight dies very early in the process of bonding, which happened with Tien, the spren's memory should be fine. The bigger question for me is why it took so long... Tien died several years ago. But maybe they've been around for a while, just not on stage (or well hidden) in the books. Maybe they were also behind the horse's reappearance. That would mean they found and kept it after Kaladin was made a slave, and he had a secret well-wisher in the army all that time. Interesting possibilities - I guess we'll RAFO! Edit: I'll make a far-out guess here: could it be Tarah? There's a theory that we saw her in a bar at Urithiru, though there was no intimation she could be a Radiant. (In OB Veil, when she trains 'noticing people' with Ishna, sees a woman in Thaylen clothes who is not herself Thaylen.) Tarah had an artistic sense shown in her clothing, and she complained about Kaladin's obsession with the dead. She might have grown to understand him better through speaking her own truths. And it would be a real good buildup for a renewed romantic relationship.

I'm wondering about that rock too. I don't think it's Szeth's. As @CognitiveShadow said, he doesn't consider himself bound to it anymore, and it's very unlike Kaladin to keep something for the purpose of exerting pressure on anyone. I think it more likely to have something to do with Tien. This made me check whether Syl had gone to 'fetch her things' before or after Kaladin finds the rock. It's after, so she's not referring to that. Good catch! Though I'm rather betting it's the spren's new Radiant. A spren would have trouble moving a stone. Since they've not shown themselves yet, it's probably a rather new bond. Remember Syl's trouble with the blackbane leaves? Anyway, I'll watch out for Tien's former spren's new Radiant!

Yes, the Lift mention was hilarious. And good for Dabbid! I especially liked eveything about Adolin and his 'team'. Adolin 'goofy'. Gallant now considered (and probably considering himself) Adolins Ryshadium. Best of all: Maya 'folding her arms, smiling and shaking her head'. I'm looking forward to Kaladin's new stone getting wet... and, of course, his playing the flute. Sadly, no relevant further Info about the Shinovar trip, e.g. what exactly Szeth plans to do once he gets there. That's what I'm really waiting for.

Thank you, I didn't remember this. So there really was mention of one of the four watched. My bad. I still stand by my suggestion the destruction wont really happen. Hopefully...

I was just about to send the following post when your reply came. Yes, there are possibilities there, but as you say, not among the people mentioned in the blurb. Which means there is no real answer to your question in my opinion. And if they are watching so closely, how can they mistake the person? I'll leave the rest of the post as it is: @Crucible of Shards I've read Dawnshard several times, and I don't know the answer to this question. This is an all-cosmere spoiler thread. If the answer is clear to you would you please just give it? @Lord Spirit I'm with you on Kaladin being the most likely redeemer, though Dalinar isn't out of the running either. I don't support the theory that Dalinar will end up as fused. BS has promised us some measure of closure after book 5. Leaving one of the main characters in such a horrible position doesn't qualify in my opinion. Also, I'm not entirely convinced the Amians will really be destroyed. As Renarin has found out, predicting the future is tenuous. And destroying a whole people also just doesn't sound like something BS would go through with. There may be some tragic (though often meaningful) deaths, but overall he writes 'good endings'. Anyway: 'may redeem' but 'will destroy'? What good is possible redemption followed by certain destruction? That only makes sense if destruction - loss of life - is assured but redemption makes the difference between spending eternity in the Tranquiline Halls vs on Braize. Like Heaven and Hell in Christianity. From all we know and can guess about the cosmere and Roshar that just doesn't fit. So I find that part of the blub rather illogical and therefore open to very broad interpretation. I'm also not sure the topic will come up in WaT at all, it might be for SA6-10. But if it does happen in WaT, here's my bet: Whatever Kaladin and Szeth do in Shinovar (which is geographically close to Aimia): it comes close to destroying the Aimians, probably though some rash action of Szeth's, but Kaladin the redeemer saves the day. And (one can dream) saying his fifth ideal in the process? Most of all, thanks for the reminder. It adds one more reason for me to be very hyped about that mission to Shinovar. We know so little about the situation there that theorizing is extremely difficult, which has me thinking about it all the more.

I've tried to think through the question of the timing of the book. 1. Historic? Wind's 'history' seems to be: talking god, then silent god, then after change in Odium's vessel again talking god, then 'vanished'. I'm pretty sure Odium's vessel changed only once, Wit and Frost knew Rayse personally from the shattering of Adonalsium. And that vessel change is very recent, no historic author could have known about it. So I think historic is definitely out. 2. Written much later by someone who is now a child? This might be suggested by 'I first knew the Wind as a child' and the fact that the Wind has only recently started speaking again. 'Knowing' the Wind does not necessarily mean actually hearing her voice, but it would definitely help. Yet, as @Kesamijr has noted, the timeline is a bit precarious: having been a child at the time of the vessel change, and being a historian and philosopher by the end of SA10? Fast learner! Besides, so far we have always found out during the book who wrote the in-world book. In this case that could only be done by heavy foreshadowing, it couldn't be shown on screen. Ergo: not entirely impossible, but very unlikely. Which leaves us with a contemporary writer, I'm pretty sure.

My bet is on Shallan. We know she was watched by different groups from early childhood - remember the epigraph of WaT Ch 1. Ghostbloods, Skybreakers, spren... likely because she was the daughter of a herald. Kaladin and Szeth then will be the two sources. At least we are led to believe that, but who knows.

There's at least one death rattle that sounds like it might happen: We've just been reminded that tower and crown are Dalinar's symbols. And becoming king of Urithiru would also mean becoming a man of war again, picking up the spear that he'd put down earlier. (Though more in a behavioral sense, since the Sylspear is always available.) Also, the wording 'He must pick it up...' would fit Kaladin's current unwillingness. At least that seems to put to rest the theory that the oathpact will be renewed in it's old form but with new members. I was especially horrified by the theory Kaladin might join that.

Find the flashbacks at https://wob.coppermind.net/help/readings So, Kaladin finally learns to play the flute. And Szeth loves (or at least loved) dancing to the flute. And the two are going to Shinovar together. We have final confirmation of this thanks to the blurb on amazon. I try to imagine Szeth dancing while Kaladin is playing the flute... and fail horribly. Maybe at first Kaladin plays when he thinks he's alone, and Szeth hears it and starts to dance. But still: today's Szeth dancing, even when unseen?! Kaladin might try to help Szeth like he did with those with war trauma. But still: using the flute?! And yet, Kaladin learning the flute and Szeth dancing to the flute cannot possibly be coincidence! So I put it to you: can anyone imagine how anything like this might come to pass? I cannot, and yet I feel sure it's going to happen. Somehow. Somewhere. Sometime.

I think you're pretty close. I see it as exactly the other way round: the words are finally near, but the intent is still wrong. Where do you see a change in that? What has confused me since we have the final prologue version is that those words have nothing to do with a Bondsmith oath. In the previous version, both SF(*) and Gavilar were talking about G. becoming a herald. In RoW Dalinar sees a memory of Nale where he says something like: 'I will take this burden', which is clearly his assent to becoming part of the oathpact. The wording 'give it to me' especially in @Mayalaran's version, could mean the same, if the intent were right. But now, at least SF speaks about making G. a champion most of the time, not a herald. What words does he want G. to find? Bondsmith oath or herald oath? Does the Stormfather's 'so close, yet so far' relate to G.'s wish rather than his own? Or is it the Stormfaker Ishar who encourages G. to search for what Ishar wants him to search for while trying to keep up plausible deniability? (*) SF can be understood here as either Stormfather or Stormfaker; I tend towards the latter.

At first I thought the same, and I still very much think the 'watched' one is Shallan. We know that she was watched by Cryptics from an early age and that the whole family was involved in secret stuff. And we almost know for sure now that she is the daughter of a herald. Reading this thread, I now tend towards Szeth for the 'wind' parts. Apart from all the good points made here, I just can't see Kaladin starting to write a book (and with Shallan of all people??), but I can see both Szeth and Shallan doing it. Edit: One more (though small) point in Szeth's favour that I don't think has been made yet (forgive me if it was and I overlooked it): he can already write. He wrote Gavilar's last words.

That sounded like a good idea! I had never heard of the steel alphabet, but found it on the coppermind. Sadly, the result is just as cryptic: Y B I M W L S G Z R

I'm rereading TLM and wondering about the graphic that's under each 'Part X' title. Has there been any discussion of this? If there has been I couldn't find it. There are two rows of metal/number symbols. Of course those could be random, just for decoration, but I find that hard to believe. Yet I cannot think of any meaningful interprtetation. In numbers it's: 14 1 3 11 13 5 16 9 15 6 The metals are: nicrosil iron tin gold chromium zinc duralumin cadmium aluminum brass Any thoughts?

Thanks!

I tremble to suggest this, and maybe someone can help me out with a satisfying answer. Here's my problem: Ryan sabotaged Ulric's beacon. When John meets Ryan, they guess that it still worked in part since John got through, though somewhere unexpected. And Ulric somehow could trace where he had landed. Then it turns out Ulric's beacon really doesn't work anymore, and it was Logna who 'fetched' John. Nothing to do with Ulric's beacon. So, how did Ulric know that someone had landed in Stenford?

Yes, you definitely do!