Erklitt

I don't think she used Szeth to kill her targets with his Honorblade. She owned him only a short time: she had bragged to Jasnah about her new slave and now had already got rid of him. I don't think she even knew about his honorblade.But she must have used a shardblade for many years in her assassinations to build up that sort of reputation. I think that was her own shardblade which was (for reasons given in my edit2) not her old honorblade. I think she was creeped out by Szeth for the same reasons as his other masters: he was just too obedient, too perfect, too inhuman. I think even a herald could think him odd enough to want him gone, that doesn't necessarily imply squeamishness. I also don't think Jasnah's wish to have Elhokar's wife shadowed / assassinated had anything to do with the Parshendi treaty. I take Liss' 'odd night' comment rather as 'why on such a crowded and busy night', not 'why not sooner to prevent that treaty before it happened?' The best point you make, in my opinion, is the one about the other heralds knowing that Szeth has Jezrien's blade. Why would they know and Vedel wouldn't? But then, I don't imagine the heralds as a nice close group sharing everything, even if they did all come to Kholinar on treaty night. So I think it's conceivable some know more than others. But I admit: Liss' ignorance points rather against this theory.

I'm also very prone to such partial re-readings, and it's what I do most of the time. But I promise you: after having spent some time on this forum and reading all those speculations and comments, an entire reread will be fun, even if it's only to discover the sources and connections for all that stuff you read here. There's just too much you miss on the first read, because of information overload.

@Naurock Yeah, I just scanned through the Prologue again and couldn't find what I meant, except maybe some silent communication with Amaram that implied something had happened between them. But I admit there's not enough there to warrant the 'trauma theory'. Maybe it was somewhere else, or at some time I put too much store by that moment. I still think Navani sounds like there was a rather sudden change. Just got the alert for this: Thanks, exactly! And then there's this. I was wrong about the age of six, this is what I meant:

I just read the WoR Prologue again and I'd like to come back to Liss as possibly being Vedel. There may be 'little evidence' but not none, no less I think then for the beggar being Jezrien. Vedel is known traditionally as 'loving and healing'. Her being an assassin would be the perfect corruption of both. She definitely has some kind of shardblade. Maybe an honorblade? Supposing the theory that all Heralds except Taln were at the party is true, we can expect to see her there somewhere. I don't think we'll meet a more likely candidate. Then there's her ease with different accents: Like Taln speaking perfect Alethi in spite of looking Makabaki (iirc). And her words: What does the run-of-the-mill assassin know about the meaning of that night? Even the 'long dark hair worn loose' (p 23) would fit her picture. One caveat is the fact that Jasnah as employer probably set the meeting. However it's possible to assume Jasnah just asked for a meeting soon and Liss / Vedel suggested treaty night. Slightly beside the point: I wonder what Liss is doing at the time of WoK / WoR? Is she still shadowing the queen? Is Jasnah paying her all that time, and has she been willing to do maid's duty for so long? Anyway: does anyone else think Liss is Vedel, or are there reasons against this? [Edit: I couldn' find 'Vedeledev's golden keys' (an exclamation made by Kabsal in WoK ch.7 'Anything Reasonable' p. 122 kindle edition) in the Prologue scene, but then, that would be asking too much, wouldn't it? ] [Edit 2: I just remembered the Honorblades are accounted for. But then I remembered something else: Taravangian claims one Honorblade granting Regrowth had been stolen. So far I thought he was simply lying to keep Szeth in line. But maybe he wasn't, and Vedel retrieved her blade? However, I'm aware the timeline is fishy. For Vedel to have used her honorblade for assassinations, she'd have to have it retrieved long before Gavilar's murder, and T seems to speak about a recent event. So I guess this theory only works under the assumption that Vedel is using some random shardblade, not her honorblade. One point down. But I still think the theory has merit.]

I agree that one big reason for her staying alone is that she simply doesn't have time for romance. So much more is at stake. However I think there is something more. I don't quite remember where and what it was, maybe in her Prologue to WoR (?), but somewhere there was a hint at some kind of trauma. And according to Navani there was a dramatic change in her when she was six. I believe there is some mystery about her, but I don't think it's her sexual orientation.

Don't forget immortal! As for quantitative power, I'm not sure at all that Hoid is inferior to the Heralds. We know Hoid's sword is not an Honorblade, don't we? I'm aware of the 'currently' in the WoB about Hoid not having one, but I still think that concerned a time when he did have the side sword, simply because afaik he hasn't been without it during SA. So, if it's just about any special or shard-like sword, I guess Szeth ought to have his own arc portrait now too. Whatever Hoid's sword is, it can hardly outshine Nightblood. The longer I think about it, the more I believe that the answer to the OP is somewhere in the arc-and-faces thing, Something that will make sense of Hoid's place there, too, though I don't currently think it's the sword.

Granted. As the best Ravenclaw student of the year, you've taken your NEWTs in Potions, Defense Against the Dark Arts, Charms, Astronomy and Divination, achieving only Outstanding and Exceeds Expectations grades. Then through some freak accident you end up in the cosmere. You realize your astronomical knowledge, being based on the Milky way, is mostly worthless here. As a side effect your Divination skills also have become rather blotchy, being based on the sun's planetary system. Then you meet Hoid. As you know he collects magic like other people collect stamps. You're still trying to convince him that no shardic investiture will give him your magic skills because they are something one has to be born with. Arguing with him drives you closer to insanity every day. Your bane is that you never find the nerve to leave him, so you know where this will end. I wish I could eat as much and what I like without growing sideways.

I think that's Hoid himself. That mask and cap might be his 'King's Wit' insignia, although I don't remember him ever wearing anything like that. Anyway this particuar icon always shows on chapters where he makes an appearance, even if it's off-stage like in the Purelake / Ishikk interlude (not just the Hoid epilogues). I like your idea of the symmetry of the arcs having to do with Vorinism. But it leads me to a more basic question: Why the arcs at all? The heralds could have been depicted on any kind of mural. Possibly the arc itself is (part of) the secret Brandon was referring to in his statement to the OP.

Welcome, Tomerad! Have an upvote for your first post! Yeah, Wit is an extreme example. Yet I still think the explanation of Eki and others is valid, even with the mis-Jasnah-something. Alethi or Veden would not have the same way of forming such a word, but they might have a different way. It would take a really brilliant translator to find ways to represent things like that in another language adequately, and they would need the courage and freedom to change the literal content in order to convey the tone of the wordplay. But it's not impossible. Wit could have made an entirely different joke in response to something Dalinar said, which would yet have felt the same as the English one we actually get to read. Anyway, short of inventing a whole language (Tolkien has been mentioned) and teaching that language to all readers (not even Tolkien tried that seriously) there is no way around just pretending that the fantasy languages share the properties of the real language. The only alternative would be using a very poor, limited language that conveys nothing but pure content. And I think none of us want to read that.

I cannot find what you're talking about - either I'm looking in the wrong place or the icons are simpler on kindle. Are you talking about the circular icons above Shallan's chapters in WoR? On the kindle the circumference is just a double ring:

Funny thing is it might be boon or bane. It says somewhere that she interprets the wishes rather willfully... Dalinar might just have asked to stop hurting about his wife, and this is how she did it. My thoughts exactly about banes and boons in this game. As for your wish... granted. Sadly for you, the Nightwatcher does not know what a steelrunner is (like me) so you might be a little surprised at what you really get. As your bane, you're not able to turn off your awesomeness. Have fun slipping and gliding through the world, never being able to hold so much as a cup in your hand.

Here are my thoughts what Brandon might have meant: He might have referred to Taln's icon, the meaning of which is not quite clear. The mountains might be a reference to his identity as the herald of Stonewardens, but why those nine stars / comets / shardblades? So far, only characters who we know will be flashback characters have their own icon - with one exception: Adolin. On the other hand, Baxil's interlude has no special icon, although Shalash almost certainly is the focus. Of course, she's not the POV character in this chapter and her appearance is incognito, so it might have the standard icon for those reasons. However, I wonder: might Brandon be intentionally misleading us about the flashback characters to keep a few surprises, and might Adolin really be in line for his own book? One thing strengthening this suspicion is that we know Rysn is going to be an important character later, too, yet she didn't get her own icon. And in her case, it would have given nothing away if she had. Well, if that were true, I know at least one sharder who's going to jump in the air for joy (looking at you, @maxal - but don't get your hopes up too high ) but I would really like that, too. My third idea is the slight change in the standard icon: both are the 'double eye', but they look different. Maybe there's a reason for that beside variety in the books. Edit: Though, come to think of it, I believe @Rasarr is probably right. That's what really makes only a limited amount of sense so far. My interpretation so far was that the depicted heralds represent attributes that people in the chapter display, but that is pretty weak.

I don't know about 'common knowledge', but I always considered that one specific icon as a representation of Pattern - so yes, a cryptic. Whether in his two-dimensional / physical realm form or the head of his three-dimensional / cognitive realm form (as in the drawing you posted) I'm not sure. My advice is: pay attention to the chapter icons in relation to who the chapter is about. I think you'll quickly realize something that is not really hidden at all, so I think Brandon's statement to you must have been about something deeper. I have one idea what it might be about, but that's just speculation and I would rather not say until you've come this first step. Edit: Maybe you already know what I'm talking about, and just weren't quite sure about this specific icon: in that case I apologize for wasting your time. Or not, but then you'll quickly figure it out now. In any case: post here again, and we'll discuss theories of what Brandon meant. I'm intrigued.

Granted. You're allergic to the sand. That does not prevent you from using it - quite the contrary: your constant sneezing produces even more elaborate illusions. Your sand swirls and whirls like nothing anyone has ever seen. You're soon known as the best Lightweaver in the cosmere - even Hoid can no longer compete with you. So your services are in constant demand. You need the money and cannot say no. No one is the least bit interested in the suffering every performance brings you. They see your tearing eyes and believe you're just moved by your own performance. I'd like to have an E-Bike. (A little cheaper in the upkeep than a plane I hope... )

Agreed, and that's what I said in my conclusion. Just wanted to make clear why it's not quite clear (and where my erroneous head canon came from). Is that clear now? About Nahel: AFAIK, there's absolutely nothing to go by (or are there any WoBs?) so it's just 'fire away'. The capitalization seems to point to a proper name. Maybe the name of the first spren to try / do it? Or of the first human surgebinder? The place where it first occurred? (don't like that one much) Possibly some technical term from Shadesmar that has something to do with what happens during forming or maintaining that bond? No idea whatsoever what that might be though...

@Sam Script Turns out it was partly head canon from my side. There's a footnote on theoryland that states 'BWS has stated elsewhere that Hoid has not used his lerasium bead.' and I had taken that for fact. However I find no primary source for this. And maybe it was just 'has not used up...'? In addition there have been answers that strengthened that impression by their very vagueness, like: To me that always sounded like in the end, he hadn't used it for Allomancy. But that's interpretation. And on the other hand, there's this: Still, no clear statement whether he used that particular bead. On reddit I found an indirect quote: 'All he has said was that's there's other uses of Lerasium besides consuming it.' which might suggest the Feruchemy part. So in the end, I guess nothing is certain, but the 'consumed part of it, kept part of it' seems a pretty likely theory. @Jondesu If there is such a WoB, I haven't found it, though I tried. There's lots of confirmation that Hoid does have a bead, but not that the element from the letter is that bead.

Thanks for the moral support. I realize I should have phrased my reply to Three1415 more diplomatically... anyway, appreciate it!

No proof, evidence, or anything else, just a spontaneous thought: Hoid might have wanted to be rid of that lerasium. Obviously, he's somehow achieved Allomancy without it. At least soothing and maybe rioting, but knowing him, I guess he has it all. And he still carried the bead. From the letter (if that paragraph really was about the lerasium) it might be inferred that Frost was worried it might get into the wrong hands. Hoid didn't need it anymore for himself. So how to keep it away from the wrong hands? His quiet apprentice might have been ideal. Under such circumstances, it could even be considered plausible that he never taught Sigzil anything, and Sigzil does what he does by instinct. Maybe he even uses the tin he gets from tin cups: after all Teft remarked that Sigzil 'knew things'. I have only a vague idea of what 'I protect it like my own skin' is supposed to mean in this scenario. Maybe 'I make sure no one can get at it' which in the case of the lerasium would mean: no one will ever suspect where it went, and so it will be safe." Once again, lots of woolgathering.

From a recent search of WoBs about Parshendi I remember: you are exactly right about the two human-Parshendi mixed races Aimians are not human at all. And I seem to remember the two Aimian races are really different from each other. But that may have been my interpretation, I wasn't paying much attention to that part. (And right now I'm on the computer from which I have no access to theoryland, so I can't check.)

Thanks, good idea. I was just about to start a new thread on Glys so you guys can go on talking law here, but this way around it's less confusing on the main forum. So, back to Glys, I have another idea: What if Glys is the same kind of spren that provide Parshendi nightform? That wouldn't answer the question whether Glys is lying or not: Truthwatcher spren could in fact be the same as Parshendi nightform spren. Or not. There's a lot in the Listener Songs about the relationship of Parshendi, humans and spren. At least some Parshendi felt that spren preferred humans, so they felt betrayed. (I'll use spoiler boxes so this post doesn't look too long) From the Listener Song of Spren: From the Listener Song of Secrets: So what if Glys looks all dark and shadowy? The stanza about nightform fits Renarin surprisingly well (again from the Song of Secrets): All we've seen him 'foresee' so far is the everstorm. Maybe the 'form of shadows' even has something to do with Renarin's stealth while writing the glyphs. A manifestation of the Truthwatcher variant of Lightweaving, or a lying imitation of it, depending on whether or not Glys is telling the truth? To be thorough, I'll also add the other mention of nightform, though it doesn't add much to the current topic I think:

Ok, first: sorry if my one-liner came out rather rude. I apologize. I just get a little frustrated sometimes about an occasional phenomenon of which this thread is a good example: I guess all of us sometime state half-remembered or misremembered WoBs as fact, that's human and in itself isn't a problem. But when someone else remembers something different, often the facts aren't checked, instead everyone continues on their own assumptions, and true discussion becomes harder and harder. Since such different memories of WoBs concerning the god orders / surges were cited here, I decided to do a thorough search of WoBs for the topic and bring us all on the same page - to avoid that very phenomenon. I think I was pretty thorough, searching theoryland for the order names, surge names, and various expressions like 'god surge', 'god order' etc., each individually, so as not to miss anything. And I was surprised to find that Brandon never (as far as I can find) mentioned the existence of 'god orders' and didn't really take to the expression 'god surges' either - all that was interpretation. Not necessarily wrong, but still interpretation. So, I read your post and thought: "Hey, I just showed there is no such WoB! That all came from the one about Syl and Wyndle!" But I realize that 1) I didn't mention how thorough my search had been and 2) even if I had of course you didn't have to believe I'd found everything. And if there is really such a WoB about the Edgedancers and Windrunners being god orders and I missed it, I'd sure like to know!

Just go up three posts from your own. Last quote. Actually reading what went before sometimes helps...

The nobles beat their children near the point of death to see if they snap, afterwards I'm sure they test them. As for skaa, wealth and rebellion would not be enough, it also takes knowledge. While skaa seem to be aware there are people with strange powers known as Allomancers, I don't think the connection to certain metals is general knowledge. So the real percentage of skaa Mistings would be lot higher then the known figures. I also always put this scene down to Sigzil's personality, and I still think that's probably it. But that scene with Teft is somehow suggestive... @Khyrindor Nice idea.

No, it's Teft's. AFAIK, we have no Sigzil POVs. Whether the problem is instinct or lack of metals, each could be the reason in both cases. You made me wonder: how do skaa Mistings discover their Allomancy at all? How do they realize they've snapped, if they never imbibe their metal by accident and no one tests them? After the mist sickness it takes Elend's sudden idea to find the new Mistings. What was it like for Clubs, for example? How does one discover that one can burn copper? That may actually be a hole in the Mistborn world building... anyway, so let's say Sigzil never imbibed pewter or tin. They do have tin cups on Roshar (just checked), but that doesn't mean Sigzil regularly drinks from one. As to your second argument: who says Hoid didn't teach him? Do we know he isn't doing it on purpose? Without a Sigzil POV we really cannot tell. The biggest question for me is: why would Hoid give his lerasium to Sigzil? But he's Hoid, so asking a 'why' question is not likely to get an answer anytime soon. Edit: Sigzil is a very reticent man. Again, I don't think this whole theory very likely, but in my opinion it's not quite impossible that Sigzil could hide such a secret.

Certainly a very interesting idea. @Sam Script Maybe it's a good idea to put a 'Mistborn Spoilers' marker in the topic title, or we will have to put half of our arguments in spoiler boxes. I'm not sure Hoid could have made him an Allomancer by accident - I have no idea how anyone could become an Allomancer outside Scadrial except through a lerasium bead. I see only two possibilities: - Sigzil is a Worldhopper - Hoid gave him his lerasium Both might be possible. - Sigzil is called Azish, but that might be a cover. I can find no solid reason against Sigzil being a Worldhopper, - And Hoid had that bead. I tend to think this excerpt from Hoid's letter is about the lerasium bead: While Sigzil might be considered a 'good home', the latter half doesn't seem to fit - except if the letter was written while they were still together, and Sigzil was under Hoid's protection. Possible - we know Hoid actually did some protecting ('saving him'). And I might misinterpret that passage anyway. One more point in support: there are brass plates used on Roshar. He could have the trace minerals in his stomach. There's no mention of pewter anywhere in SA so far (kindle search is a great help in such things). So, in case he's a Mistborn, there's no problem about why he doesn't manifest extraordinary strength and speed. The other metals are probably not used so easily by instinct - see Vin. So my conclusion: quite possible! Though I'm not sure I think it likely... but I like the idea!